# General > General >  Hollie Greig and The Palestine Telegraph

## fred

I was just doing a search on google news to keep abreast of any developments.

http://news.google.co.uk/news?hl=en&...-8&sa=N&tab=wn

It strikes me as strange, when the people of Palestine have suffered so much injustice largely ignored by the British media, when Palestinians are portrayed as terrorists here, that it is a Palestinian paper in the lead in the fight for justice for the people of Scotland.

----------


## Leanne

I really hope the truth outs itself!!!

----------


## scotsboy

Thanks for that Fred, truly horrific story and deplorable circumstances..............had not heard anything about it until now.



_"They stole my land, burnt my olive trees, destroyed my house, took my water, imprisoned my father, killed my mother, starved us all, humiliated us all. But I am to blame : I shot a rocket back. So they stole more of my land, burnt my olive trees, destroyed my house, took my water, bombed my country..." Palestine_

----------


## Anfield

A very disturbing story,  made even more shocking by the apparent reluctance of the main media to cover it

----------


## Acer

Scotsboy,

Do you know where I can buy that T-shirt?

----------


## bekisman

Don't agree with what Fred usually writes, but in this instance he deserves praise for bringing this to light, I've just read the harrowing accounts in some of the links and others I found.. Horrendous..
psychiatrists had Hollie draw pictures of what happened to her - a kid like that could not make it up.. I feel very very angry.

----------


## roadbowler

yes, fred, well done for starting this thread. In my opinion, a hollie greig thread should be stickied on every forum front page going. Public need to know one way or another. Lord Advocate Elish Angiolini certainly has a lot to answer for! If anyone is interested, there is a very good interview you can download. It has clips of an interview of anne and hollie greig and robert green is live in studio. Try googling manchester radio online robert green.

----------


## fred

> yes, fred, well done for starting this thread. In my opinion, a hollie greig thread should be stickied on every forum front page going. Public need to know one way or another. Lord Advocate Elish Angiolini certainly has a lot to answer for! If anyone is interested, there is a very good interview you can download. It has clips of an interview of anne and hollie greig and robert green is live in studio. Try googling manchester radio online robert green.


The show is on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtzehzYQGe4

----------


## roadbowler

cheers for posting the link fred. As for your original post, aye, the Palestinians are one big step ahead of us, they already know how corrupt our government and media are.

----------


## ducati

> cheers for posting the link fred. As for your original post, aye, the Palestinians are one big step ahead of us, they already know how corrupt our government and media are.


I still don't get this, when the story was first posted on this forum I thought this has got "Exclusive Daily Mail Investigative Bla Bla" all over it. It seems if Alex Salmon is implicated in the cover up as well...a great opportunity to course some real trouble for the SNP (which they would love to).

Why is none of the UK media picking it up? 

BTW I used to work for DMGT group (as was) and I guarantee they would go hell for leather on something like this if they thought there was an once of truth in it.

----------


## fred

> I still don't get this, when the story was first posted on this forum I thought this has got "Exclusive Daily Mail Investigative Bla Bla" all over it. It seems if Alex Salmon is implicated in the cover up as well...a great opportunity to course some real trouble for the SNP (which they would love to).
> 
> Why is none of the UK media picking it up? 
> 
> BTW I used to work for DMGT group (as was) and I guarantee they would go hell for leather on something like this if they thought there was an once of truth in it.


If it was just Alex Salmon it might be different, like the banks that were too big to fail this is a story too big to be told. Leaders of political parties come and go, the establishment is here to stay.

----------


## zarapopet

nobody makes these things up .yes hollie has had a hurendeous life like many of us that have  been in the same situation.
We Will  never get our justice ,as its clasified as historical cases and then it comes down to lack of collaberation either that or the persons whom have seen whats gone on are to scared to come forward and suppoet the innocent victim. 
i know as thats what happened to me . i lost my case due to my sister not standing by me because she was to scared of loseing the rest of the family.
even though she had seeen on a few occations what was happening. i lost my innocence and was constantly on tender hooks watching waiting hiding from them but to no availe 
years and years of abuse.
just because he wasnt brought to court does not mean he isnt guilty it juat means the other peoplke that saw what went on are scared to come forward but that doesnt help us the victims it makes us feel worthless and say what the hell have i done to deserve this. am i bad or evil why me .
i am still affected by allthe trauma this has caused me. 
i walk down the town and think what is everyone thinking .i feel physically sick about all the things i was made to do so how do they think.
he was the pillar of the comunity and i hear you say no he wouldnt have done that as he was real good to us. well im sorry to disappoint you all he did exactly that and much much more.
i am saying this as we realy do need to protect the innocence of our children to let them have as care free childhood as possible.
it is up to us as adults to protect them.
not to have these secrets that will burden them for the rest of there lives.
so if a child tells you something please get support for them asap as the quicker it is reported the evidence required will be there and they will get all the help there is out there to get through this traumatic time. if it is left longer it gets  harder it is to tell .
I do  hope hollie gets the justice she so rightly deserves and that these people are put away for a very long stretch.
once a pedo always a pedo a leopard never changes its spots....

----------


## Stavro

This is my 1,000th post.   :Smile:   I was waiting for a worthy thread - and none could be more worthy than this one.




> Why is none of the UK media picking it up?


I think that the quick answer to your question lies in the fact that an Edinburgh law firm, called Levy & McRae, have been sending out very threatening letters to newspaper editors, web site administrators and television networks on behalf of their clients - Mrs. Elish Angiolini and Mr. Graham Buchanan. Both Mrs Angiolini (the Lady Advocate) and Mr Buchanan (a sheriff based at Aberdeen Sheriff Court) formerly worked for Levy & McRae.

Mrs Angiolini and Mr Buchanan have refused to say whether Levy & McRae's bills are being paid out of public funds. Levy & McRae are also refusing to say whether they act for Mrs Angiolini in her official capacity or as an individual.

Another former employee of this particular law firm is Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish Justice Secretary.

Levy & McRae also just happen to be the legal advisors to every major newspaper in Scotland.

That's the short answer to your question, ducati.

----------


## Stavro

"Kenny MacAskill, Scottish Justice Secretary and ex Levy & McRae lawyer, is apparently so scared by the rising tide of public ire surrounding his and his colleagues apparent cover up of the Hollie Greig scandal, that he has proposed amendments to the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Bill, which is going through the Scottish Parliament at the moment.

...

"Mr MacAskill is not the only politician attempting to attack free speech in this way. A source has alleged to the UK Column that David Cameron has stated that should he become Prime Minister, he will legislate to prevent campaigners from asking difficult questions on public forums."

(Source:  Mike Robinson, writing on  http://www.ukcolumn.org/ )

----------


## roadbowler

ducati, it was reported in the press and journal once. If you google you`ll find it. Robert green was arrested in aberdeen but nothing appeared in the p and j. The entire scottish establishment and maybe uk wide is involved at some level. Robert green does not mince his words on his opinion of the scottish establishment either. Council careworkers delivering these children on their duty hours to a pedo ring. Hollies uncle has been murdered in aberdeenshire quite a few years back, two months after he caught the father with hollie. Broken sternum, smashed skull, whisky poured down his neck and thrown into a burning car. Suicide?? Don't think so. Hollies mother sectioned for no reason but to shut her up. They admit she is fully sane and has had several independent private mental assessments giving her the all clear. They also admit they do not hold the proper documets required to have sectioned her to begin with. Hollies mother ann did report at the time about the abuse. The then procurator fiscal, now lord advocate angiolini let the case go out of time so, that a prosecution could not come about at all. That's only part of this story.

----------


## sandyr1

A thought we should all remember....'Innocent until proven guilty'.....Not...... Guilty by the Press, any Press!
I read the previous posts on this, and methinks there is too much at stake to do the 'Cover Up Thingy'!
Just a calculated opinion....One should be careful what one says....Newspapers abroad likely cannot be sued.....e.g.Palestine....
Fred....Not critical of your thoughts....Caution!

----------


## Stavro

> A thought we should all remember....'Innocent until proven guilty'.....Not...... Guilty by the Press, any Press!
> I read the previous posts on this, and methinks there is too much at stake to do the 'Cover Up Thingy'!
> Just a calculated opinion....One should be careful what one says....Newspapers abroad likely cannot be sued.....e.g.Palestine....
> Fred....Not critical of your thoughts....Caution!



Sandyr1, I think that the point is that certain people cannot be proven anything by a legal system that those very same people control. Such people are not our masters, but our servants. This fact has been all but lost on a population which is more interested in EastEnders and silly-question-opinion-polls.

These are extremely serious allegations and the police, rather than driving around fining motorists and arresting someone for walking along the street, should be thoroughly investigating them. Guilt or innocence can only be established after the thorough investigation (and prosecution, as and when necessary).

----------


## sandyr1

> Sandyr1, I think that the point is that certain people cannot be proven anything by a legal system that those very same people control. Such people are not our masters, but our servants. This fact has been all but lost on a population which is more interested in EastEnders and silly-question-opinion-polls.
> 
> These are extremely serious allegations and the police, rather than driving around fining motorists and arresting someone for walking along the street, should be thoroughly investigating them. Guilt or innocence can only be established after the thorough investigation (and prosecution, as and when necessary).


*Stavro*
Agree 100%, but considering that we (The Western World including the UK) have the best Legal System in the World, it is difficult to believe of such a cover up. And Policing involves many facets, not just that of prosecuting Criminals....there is a balance....

----------


## Aaldtimer

> *Stavro*
> Agree 100%, but considering that we (The Western World including the UK) have the best Legal System in the World, it is difficult to believe of such a cover up. And Policing involves many facets, not just that of prosecuting Criminals....there is a balance....


 
Get that tongue oot o' yer cheek buiy! ::

----------


## scotsboy

> Scotsboy,
> 
> Do you know where I can buy that T-shirt?


T-SHIRT is available from http://www.philosophyfootball.com/ it is in the dissenters range

----------


## fred

> *Stavro*
> Agree 100%, but considering that we (The Western World including the UK) have the best Legal System in the World, it is difficult to believe of such a cover up. And Policing involves many facets, not just that of prosecuting Criminals....there is a balance....


Aren't the facts just coming to light about a similar cover up involving the Roman Catholic church? The secret everyone knew but nobody talked about. People in high places abusing their influence to ensure prosecutions were not brought and newspaper articles were not written. A priest moved on quickly to another parish and people whispered but no one dare speak.

Are we going to wait another fifty years for people to say "yes everyone knew but nothing was ever done" while the same system continues, just as we know it did a hundred years ago and fifty years ago but don't want to acknowledge it does now. Are we prepared to protect the children of the future or do we take the easy option and pretend it isn't happening?

----------


## ducati

> This is my 1,000th post.  
> Levy & McRae also just happen to be the legal advisors to every major newspaper in Scotland.


That still doesn't wash. There are no Scottish Newspapers-they are all owned by major media groups.

If Mirror Group or Daily Mail or any of the others believed the story-it would be splashed and they wouldn't worry about some little provincial law firm.

Congrats on the 1K BTW

----------


## ducati

> ducati, it was reported in the press and journal once. If you google you`ll find it. Robert green was arrested in aberdeen but nothing appeared in the p and j. The entire scottish establishment and maybe uk wide is involved at some level. Robert green does not mince his words on his opinion of the scottish establishment either. Council careworkers delivering these children on their duty hours to a pedo ring. Hollies uncle has been murdered in aberdeenshire quite a few years back, two months after he caught the father with hollie. Broken sternum, smashed skull, whisky poured down his neck and thrown into a burning car. Suicide?? Don't think so. Hollies mother sectioned for no reason but to shut her up. They admit she is fully sane and has had several independent private mental assessments giving her the all clear. They also admit they do not hold the proper documets required to have sectioned her to begin with. Hollies mother ann did report at the time about the abuse. The then procurator fiscal, now lord advocate angiolini let the case go out of time so, that a prosecution could not come about at all. That's only part of this story.


I get all that and I am not denying the truth of the whole story, I am sure it will all come out in the end. But there is something very fishy or it would have been fully reported in something other than a local rag (Which is owned by a major national media group).

----------


## scotsboy

> I get all that and I am not denying the truth of the whole story, I am sure it will all come out in the end. But there is something very fishy or it would have been fully reported in something other than a local rag (Which is owned by a major national media group).


I am not sure, I was privvy to the story behind what actually happened with Paul Gascoigne and his wife at Gleneagles hotel, when it was reported that he had physically abused her, the full detials of the story include complicity of a well known newspaper editor, who was a key player in the events that occurred that night - the media know all about the story, but it will never be printed because "they don't do that to their own" - that is a quote from a journo from a rival red top.

----------


## scotsboy

Anyone know where I can find background info on Robert Green? I have seen it mentioned that he is a "lay" legal adviser, a journalst and a broadcaster...........but can't find anything to support these.

----------


## ducati

> Anyone know where I can find background info on Robert Green? I have seen it mentioned that he is a "lay" legal adviser, a journalst and a broadcaster...........but can't find anything to support these.


Yes last time I looked, all I could find was his blog.

----------


## Anfield

(1) Put this thread on every forum you are a member of

(2) You can sign a petition here:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/o...reen-petition/

----------


## scotsboy

Need to verify the source of the info first....it seems that Robert Green is well represented on http://www.davidicke.com/ now without wanting to upset anyone, I was hoping for something  little bit more erudite.

----------


## northener

OK, it's obvious there is no media coverage in the Uk regarding this case.

It could be some sort of 'cover up', or it could be simply that there is a legitimate Media blackout on this. Given the arrest of the self-styled 'champion' of this cause recently, I would say that this is the most likely option. 

On the Beeb yesterday I caught the back end of a discussion surrounding Media blackouts. The Beeb wallah was stating that the present situation is ridiculous, as in the UK media are asked to leave certain things alone simply to see the news go out anyway on the internet from a 'foreign' source.

If ther are nefarious goings-on, then I am _very_ suprised that the press hasn't nailed them hard. It would be an absolute coup for any decent journalist. And there's plenty out there who would be willing to go against the Establishment when necessary.


So all we have at the moment is speculation.

----------


## The Drunken Duck

> OK, it's obvious there is no media coverage in the Uk regarding this case.
> 
> It could be some sort of 'cover up', or it could be simply that there is a legitimate Media blackout on this. Given the arrest of the self-styled 'champion' of this cause recently, I would say that this is the most likely option. 
> 
> On the Beeb yesterday I caught the back end of a discussion surrounding Media blackouts. The Beeb wallah was stating that the present situation is ridiculous, as in the UK media are asked to leave certain things alone simply to see the news go out anyway on the internet from a 'foreign' source.
> 
> If ther are nefarious goings-on, then I am _very_ suprised that the press hasn't nailed them hard. It would be an absolute coup for any decent journalist. And there's plenty out there who would be willing to go against the Establishment when necessary.
> 
> 
> So all we have at the moment is speculation.


Sensible stuff, and along the lines of what I think but better put than I could. I avoided posting on this subject because I felt that to suggest anything other than the party line on it was to line myself up for a flaming.

----------


## The Drunken Duck

> (1) Put this thread on every forum you are a member of
> 
> (2) You can sign a petition here:
> 
> http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/o...reen-petition/


Erm ..no .. it doesnt work.

I am a MOD on a Gaming website and have had to ban two people myself for starting threads about this issue and then trolling and insulting anyone who deosnt jump quickly enough in to agreeing with them. If people want to know about it then they will enquire themselves, it is already becoming more publicised and forcing it down peoples throats is actually counter productive going by the feedback of our posters.

----------


## Stavro

> Congrats on the 1K BTW


In the words of Wallace, "Many thanks indeed, old friend."  :Smile:

----------


## sandyr1

> Aren't the facts just coming to light about a similar cover up involving the Roman Catholic church? The secret everyone knew but nobody talked about. People in high places abusing their influence to ensure prosecutions were not brought and newspaper articles were not written. A priest moved on quickly to another parish and people whispered but no one dare speak.
> 
> Are we going to wait another fifty years for people to say "yes everyone knew but nothing was ever done" while the same system continues, just as we know it did a hundred years ago and fifty years ago but don't want to acknowledge it does now. Are we prepared to protect the children of the future or do we take the easy option and pretend it isn't happening?


Fred, I agree! But I feel we must let the professionals deal with these allegations. The situation you talk of was/is basically a closed shop! This one involves many different people from many organizations.

Remember that the Polis and the Prosecution......'Are seekers of the truth', whatever that may be.

----------


## roadbowler

well, for anyone unsure what is going on as far as media black out and cover up go to Levy and MacRae website and download the .pdf of Peter Watsons biography. This man has a finger in every pie going. Family advocate for lockerbie, dunblane. Braer oil spill, legal advisor to rangers football club, media groups including reuters, itn, sky, scottish news group, mirror news group, channel 4 etc..etc legal advisor to nearly every law enforcement agency, prison guard group etc etc. Not to mention numerous public officials, politicians and private big wigs. It is they who are controlling what's happening or not happening.

----------


## Stavro

> well, for anyone unsure what is going on as far as media black out and cover up go to Levy and MacRae website and download the .pdf of Peter Watsons biography. This man has a finger in every pie going. Family advocate for lockerbie, dunblane. Braer oil spill, legal advisor to rangers football club, media groups including reuters, itn, sky, scottish news group, mirror news group, channel 4 etc..etc legal advisor to nearly every law enforcement agency, prison guard group etc etc. Not to mention numerous public officials, politicians and private big wigs. It is they who are controlling what's happening or not happening.



Well done for mentioning Dunblane, roadbowler, since this whole business seems to run an awful lot deeper than just a bit of dereliction of duty on behalf of Angiolini and Grampian Constabulary.

Don't know where Rangers Football Club fits into all this, though!  :Smile:

----------


## northener

> well, for anyone unsure what is going on as far as media black out and cover up go to Levy and MacRae website and download the .pdf of Peter Watsons biography. This man has a finger in every pie going. Family advocate for lockerbie, dunblane. Braer oil spill, legal advisor to rangers football club, media groups including reuters, itn, sky, scottish news group, mirror news group, channel 4 etc..etc legal advisor to nearly every law enforcement agency, prison guard group etc etc. Not to mention numerous public officials, politicians and private big wigs. It is they who are controlling what's happening or not happening.


And you have proof of this 'control' no doubt?

----------


## Anfield

> Erm ..no .. it doesnt work.
> 
> I am a MOD on a Gaming website and have had to ban two people myself for starting threads about this issue and then trolling and insulting anyone who deosnt jump quickly enough in to agreeing with them. If people want to know about it then they will enquire themselves, it is already becoming more publicised and forcing it down peoples throats is actually counter productive going by the feedback of our posters.


DD,
Why has your site  banned people from posting , from whom did banning order come from?
Facebook has not banned posting (yet)
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=310572835068&ref=ts#!/group.php?v=wall&ref=ts&gid=310572835068

----------


## roadbowler

well, tell me northerner, who controls nearly every function of your existence? Answer that question honestly then you will be able to see the proof. It's right in front of you. It is notable that levy and macraes' second in commands speciality is representing dodgy lawyers who get themselves into stookies. Is there not a conflict of interest when this law firm are the legal advisors to the media, police and those of the legal profession some in high up government positions of authority allegedly implicated in either the crime itself or coverup of the crime?

----------


## Leanne

> well, tell me northerner, who controls nearly every function of your existence? Answer that question honestly then you will be able to see the proof. It's right in front of you. It is notable that levy and macraes' second in commands speciality is representing dodgy lawyers who get themselves into stookies. Is there not a conflict of interest when this law firm are the legal advisors to the media, police and those of the legal profession some in high up government positions of authority allegedly implicated in either the crime itself or coverup of the crime?


You're not a lawyer yourself are you? Very wooly but loaded question  :Wink:

----------


## rich

The case of Hollie Greig and her mother, Anne, raises a number of very difficult questions.

One poster said nobody could believe anybody could make up such a tale of child abuse.

Ducati said he was puzzled by the fact that it was left to the Palestinian Telegraph to 
unveil all this. Where, he wondered were the British tabs when we needed them?
An excellent question!

Fred answered this by saying - and I paraphrase - that it was all part of an establishment cover up. 

So let me try and shed a little light on the alleged cover up of the Hollie case. I make no claim to have solved the question but there are some alternative ideas to explain what happened and why.

There are some curious gaps in the story presented by Hollie's mother - it is alleged that her home was broken into by social department oficials who injected her with a needle, causing her to lose consciousness -she recovered in a hospital ward.

This is highly irregular procedure! What drug was used, what protocol was applied, which bureacratic pencil   pusher authorized this? Is there a trail of evidence lawyers could follow up on? The burden of proving the truth of this story is on the Palestinian Telegraph and on  the lawyer who was interviewed on the radio show cited by Fred et al.

Another detail. Hollie, it is alleged, presented  to two physicians with a sexually transmitted disease and a bloody froth from her rectum which was later diagnosed as a fistulla - a common enough condition. Was the STD ever treated? Was it ever diagnosed?

 Here we reach the nub of the matter.

Hollie is a young mother with a series of illnesses that baffle hospital  emergency staff.

At the same time, Hollie is  determined to get medical treatment for her physically challenged daughter who is presenting with even more problems than her mother. For example, when did "pelvic thrusting," whatever that is, become an illness?

So lets take the burden of this case away from Hollie and take a closer look at a medical condition that may account for much of this tangled testimony.

So let me put the question:

Could Hollie have been a victim of Munchausen by proxy?

I realise that this is not a disease most ORG contributors would be aware of. So I include a URL (hope I got it right)

People with Munchausen syndrome injure themselves so they can get into hospital - which represents home to them. Munchausen by Proxy occurs when they injure their child so they can both get into prison.

Please note that I am not saying this accounts for Hollie's symptoms.

But what I am saying is that  any discussion requires  bringing Muchausen by proxy into the picture.

Let's do that! Let's bring a bit of medical science to bear.

http://www.healthlinkbc.ca/kb/conten.../hw180537.html

----------


## rich

Sorry for the typo 3rd para from end.

People with Munchausen syndrome injure themselves so they can get into hospital - which represents home to them. Munchausen by Proxy occurs when they injure their child so they can both get into prison. (FOR PRISON SUBSTUTE HOSPITAL)

----------


## northener

> well, tell me northerner, who controls nearly every function of your existence? Answer that question honestly then you will be able to see the proof. It's right in front of you. It is notable that levy and macraes' second in commands speciality is representing dodgy lawyers who get themselves into stookies. Is there not a conflict of interest when this law firm are the legal advisors to the media, police and those of the legal profession some in high up government positions of authority allegedly implicated in either the crime itself or coverup of the crime?


That's a very fine opinion, Roadbowler. But that is all that it is - an opinion.

What I'm trying to say that none of us here have enough facts to be formulating a definite assessment of what is really going on. We may speculate and accuse...but it's all baloney at the end of the day without more concrete information to go on.

Fred's right in as much that he reckons it stinks...but how much of a stink it is - and where the true source of the stench is...has yet to be proved.

----------


## Anfield

> Sorry for the typo 3rd para from end.
> 
> People with Munchausen syndrome injure themselves so they can get into hospital - which represents home to them. Munchausen by Proxy occurs when they injure their child so they can both get into prison. (FOR PRISON SUBSTUTE HOSPITAL)


If the answer to this case was so simple i.e.Munchausen by proxy, why did'nt the authorities take it to court so that "expert witnesses" could disprove Hollies claim?

----------


## fred

> Need to verify the source of the info first....it seems that Robert Green is well represented on http://www.davidicke.com/ now without wanting to upset anyone, I was hoping for something  little bit more erudite.


Let's look at some of the facts.

First, no one has disputed that Hollie was abused, not the police not the courts not the social services not the doctors, they all agree Hallie was abused. She was paid 13,500 in criminal injuries compensation, she would not have received that amount unless all concerned she had been abused. No one connected with the case has ever suggested Hollie is not an honest and reliable witness.

Second, when Hollie was asked who had abused her she said it was her father and several other people including a high ranking police officer and a senior judge. There is no reason to believe Hollie is lying yet none of the people she named has been brought to trial, there is no evidence any of them except Hollie's father was ever even investigated.

You can find all this out from the Press and Journal, it stinks, it stinks to high heaven of an establishment cover up yet you come on here implying that because the case in mentioned on David Ike's web site that it must be some sort of conspiracy.

I'm very disappointed in you scotsboy, you expect that sort of thing from some, I'd thought you were better.

----------


## rich

> If the answer to this case was so simple i.e.Munchausen by proxy, why did'nt the authorities take it to court so that "expert witnesses" could disprove Hollies claim?


First of all, the case is not a simple one.

Secondly, the physician staff are over-stretched already and certainly dont require the crackpot time-wasting attention ths case has engendered

----------


## fred

> Please note that I am not saying this accounts for Hollie's symptoms.
> 
> But what I am saying is that  any discussion requires  bringing Muchausen by proxy into the picture.


Hollie was examined by two separate and independent qualified psychiatrists who both said they were 100% certain Hollie was telling the truth.

I think, as no one has offered any evidence to the contrary, we must trust their judgement.

----------


## Anfield

> First of all, the case is not a simple one.
> 
> Secondly, the physician staff are over-stretched already and certainly dont require the crackpot time-wasting attention ths case has engendered


What a disgraceful comment to make.
Hope you are never selected for jury service

----------


## The Drunken Duck

> DD,
> Why has your site  banned people from posting , from whom did banning order come from?
> Facebook has not banned posting (yet)
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=310572835068&ref=ts#!/group.php?v=wall&ref=ts&gid=310572835068


The site hasnt banned people from posting on the subject at all. Members are free to discuss it if they want, it just has to be in the right fashion. And the site owner authorised the bans. He doesnt feel comfortable with individuals being named on his site by brand new in your face members ,who have no interest in the purpose of the site, and who then start declaring people are guilty of very serious crimes. At the end of day, its his site and his rules. Its nothing more than trolling and the final straw was when both new members who started threads on the subject first started attacking members for not agreeing with them when they got few responses and then attacking the people who dared to question their statments. Banned, not wanted, goodnight. Its a console gaming website after all, not Tinfoil Hat Wearers Anonymous.

The site is a harmonious place where we all get on, its a group of people who are into gaming and we have regular events etc etc. Politics and subjects like this just arent discussed. Not because its discouraged but because we are to busy discussing games, blu rays, music and how smoking hot Kate Beckinsale is. We arent Egobook and what they do is irrelevant to us. I cant stand Egobook and dont have an account so I cant read that link anyway.

The hysteria about this subject is being whipped up by the type of people who protested outside the house of a Padeotrician recently because they thought it was some kind of Paedophile. That started on Egobook too.

----------


## rich

Who were the psychiatrists? 
And why only 2?
The record of psychiatrists in child abuse cases would fill half a bookcase! For the last 15 years we have had a whole series of alleged pedophile outrages - we have one in Cornwall Ontario that is headed towards a 20 year stretch with no end in sight. Much of the panic and erolsion of medical standards has been brought about - I hate to have to say this - by the media. Now just when the media is seeing the light there comes this horror tale from Aberdeen.
I am less than impressed.
Try below.

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/soaw...l/article.html

----------


## Tubthumper

Pardon me for barging into this thread, but I have to say I was very impressed with Hollie's entries on the UKColumn-linked Blogsite. Considering her difficulties, it's a very erudite and precise opinion, she's obviously well capable of putting her point across and offering evidence.
She also makes a point of noting that, although she hasn't written the blog, she is aware of what's being said and agrees with it.
That's the problem as I see it - a vulnerable woman is being manipulated, whether in pursuit of justice or for someone else's agenda. 
Too many fishy smells, too many David Icke followers, too many unsubstantiated rumours. Too many people looking for a reason to be outraged, jumping on the bandwagon, seizing on each other's suppositions and feeding on the drama - much better than Eastenders!
The Angry Mob - God Bless 'em, every one!

----------


## scotsboy

> Let's look at some of the facts.
> 
> First, no one has disputed that Hollie was abused, not the police not the courts not the social services not the doctors, they all agree Hallie was abused. She was paid 13,500 in criminal injuries compensation, she would not have received that amount unless all concerned she had been abused. No one connected with the case has ever suggested Hollie is not an honest and reliable witness.
> 
> Second, when Hollie was asked who had abused her she said it was her father and several other people including a high ranking police officer and a senior judge. There is no reason to believe Hollie is lying yet none of the people she named has been brought to trial, there is no evidence any of them except Hollie's father was ever even investigated.
> 
> You can find all this out from the Press and Journal, it stinks, it stinks to high heaven of an establishment cover up yet you come on here implying that because the case in mentioned on David Ike's web site that it must be some sort of conspiracy.
> 
> I'm very disappointed in you scotsboy, you expect that sort of thing from some, I'd thought you were better.


Just trying to establish the credibility of all parties, can't seem to find anything on him.......got any links??

----------


## Tubthumper

And just in case anyone is in doubt about the kind of minds that are involved in fanning the flames, here's a post from 10th March on a site linked to the UKColumn, titled 'Latest on Robert Green'...

_"Thanks for your posts. Holly is one child. This type of sexual  perversion has a network to protect the people involved. We, globally do  have a voice that we can use to protect the children from predators.  The following is my response to the situation and how it may connect to a  very old occult network that is thought to have asked Robert Bruce for  asylum in 1307:
 If the Illuminati is funding their activities through sexual  perversion, then we have a global issue that is worth fighting for. One  important question to add is this: What are they funding - a coup? Is a  NWO the end and moment of glory for an occult network that has planned  their generational revenge as their way of recouping losses taken in  1307 when the Knights Templar were destroyed? Is the Catholic Church  their primary target because of the pope's involvement in their loss of  power? Is the global attack on organized religion as well as any moral  sense of justice Illuminati driven because this is now a totally occult  network/organization? What are we dealing with here? Holly is just one  child who is the victim of this horrible perversion._ _
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthrea...http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=659_ _
Here is a copy of a related post dated 31 May 2009, my first exposure to  this "network" and the sexual perversion they seem to be able to "get  away with," crimes with no penalty to stop future crimes against  children._ _
Post #20/ Ambiguity and Holograms: NWO and the Illuminati (access  through google or david icke)"

_Hmmm. Perhaps I've missed the point and there is a global conspiracy. In which case I'm going to relax as there is nothing I can do about it. Let's face it, 'they' wouldn't let us have this conversation now, would they?
Tinfoil hats anyone?

----------


## fred

> Who were the psychiatrists? 
> And why only 2?
> The record of psychiatrists in child abuse cases would fill half a bookcase! For the last 15 years we have had a whole series of alleged pedophile outrages - we have one in Cornwall Ontario that is headed towards a 20 year stretch with no end in sight. Much of the panic and erolsion of medical standards has been brought about - I hate to have to say this - by the media. Now just when the media is seeing the light there comes this horror tale from Aberdeen.
> I am less than impressed.
> Try below.
> 
> http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/soaw...l/article.html


Why only two? I would have thought one would be enough.

The opinion of one expert who has actually examined Hollie certainly trumps the opinion of a layman on an internet forum who never even saw her in my book. Two just makes it twice as certain.

----------


## rich

I am in large agreement with Tubthumper.

There seems to be a never-ending river of conspiracy theory these days.

I wonder if this stream of global fear and indignation has its roots in the WEB.

Likely so.

If that's the case then there's nothing to be done except turn it off and get on with Proust.

However, if asked,  I will report for Jury Duty.

And now let the paranoia roll.......(It does roll doesn't it?)


http://www.bishop-accountability.org...chive/2009/02/

----------


## fred

> And just in case anyone is in doubt about the kind of minds that are involved in fanning the flames, here's a post from 10th March on a site linked to the UKColumn, titled 'Latest on Robert Green'...


I'm just wondering about the kind of minds which ignore the known facts and just scream conspiracy at everything they don't want to believe.

Hollie was abused, that is not in dispute, not by the police, not by the doctors, not by the courts, not by the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board. Hollie was abused.

Why do I get the impression that if she'd said it was the school caretaker that did it there'd be a few different opinions around here.

----------


## roadbowler

aye, definately my opinion. But, quite frankly the hollie greig case is no surprise. I'm quite sure if the accused were living on benefits in a council flat in lithgae naebody would have any problems believing hollie and anns accusations. This is the problem for most people. People find the idea of an elitist paedophile ring so difficult to believe. Why???? My point about levy and macrae, ducati seems to think they are some small time shoddy "provincial" law firm, well, quite the opposite. They are incredibly powerful. Are people questioning hollies and many others victims stories because there is an issue of credibility or is your disbelief a product of convenience? Rich, munchausens?? Are you claiming seven other victims mothers in this are displaying characteristics of munchausens. Leanne, grow up.

----------


## ducati

> My point about levy and macrae, ducati seems to think they are some small time shoddy "provincial" law firm, well, quite the opposite. They are incredibly powerful.


Not quite, but I am questioning whether they would have much influence on a London based mega multi-national media group

----------


## Tubthumper

Who is Robert Green?
The source of all the material relating to this case is the UKColumn - who 'publishes' this website and what is their agenda?
What if these allegations are untrue?
Has anyone seen verifiable evidence relating to the 'murder' of Hollie's uncle, her CICB payment, medical, psychiatric & social work reports?
What should those who are being accused do if they are innocent?
Who writes Hollie's blog for her?
Has Hollie's case been pushed because Mr Icke's disciples are looking for a sensational cause?

----------


## fred

> Just trying to establish the credibility of all parties, can't seem to find anything on him.......got any links??


I think the fact that little of what he says has been disputed says a lot for his credibility.

I don't understand this, no one seems to be disputing the facts of the case, why would the credibility of the person who reported them matter?

----------


## fred

> Who is Robert Green?
> The source of all the material relating to this case is the UKColumn - who 'publishes' this website and what is their agenda?
> What if these allegations are untrue?
> Has anyone seen verifiable evidence relating to the 'murder' of Hollie's uncle, her CICB payment, medical, psychiatric & social work reports?
> What should those who are being accused do if they are innocent?
> Who writes Hollie's blog for her?
> Has Hollie's case been pushed because Mr Icke's disciples are looking for a sensational cause?


Here are the known facts as reported in the Press and Journal.

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Art...8131/?UserKey=

If anyone wants to offer information from elsewhere which contradicts any of these facts I would be happy to debate them.

----------


## Tubthumper

> Here are the known facts as reported in the Press and Journal.
> http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Art...8131/?UserKey=
> If anyone wants to offer information from elsewhere which contradicts any of these facts I would be happy to debate them.


Fred, I couldn't resist taking you off 'ignore'. There aren't any facts in that report, only claims. I would have thought you of all people would have spotted that.
So that's where it starts and ends, with uncorroborated allegations. Oh, and all the other 'facts' on that objective and unbiased, verifiable newspaper the UKColumn.

----------


## rich

> I think the fact that little of what he says has been disputed says a lot for his credibility.
> I don't understand this, no one seems to be disputing the facts of the case, why would the credibility of the person who reported them matter?


Fred, you're going to have to stop digging me out of my burrow as you wake me up dropping one philosophical clanger after another.(see above)
 "His credibility doesn't matter????" His credibility doesn't matter because little of what he says has been disputed!!!!"
Extend that principle and it is the justification of every Fascist regime there has ever been, including McCarthyism

----------


## Tubthumper

In the P&J article Annie Lennox is quoted as being supportive. I can find no reference to herself making a statement. I'm sure that if there was any substance to any of this, she would have spoken out.
Facts, Fred, show me facts!!

----------


## fred

> Fred, I couldn't resist taking you off 'ignore'. There aren't any facts in that report, only claims. I would have thought you of all people would have spotted that.
> So that's where it starts and ends, with uncorroborated allegations. Oh, and all the other 'facts' on that objective and unbiased, verifiable newspaper the UKColumn.


But you are the only one here reading UKColumn, I read the Press and Journal and the Palestine Telegraph. I've seen no one talking about UKColumn except you.

So which parts of the Press and Journal article do you claim aren't true and what is your evidence?

----------


## fred

> Fred, you're going to have to stop digging me out of my burrow as you wake me up dropping one philosophical clanger after another.(see above)
>  "His credibility doesn't matter????" His credibility doesn't matter because little of what he says has been disputed!!!!"
> Extend that principle and it is the justification of every Fascist regime there has ever been, including McCarthyism


Well no, it isn't, you're just making that up.

No one else has argued that Hollie wasn't abused except you, the police accept it, the courts accept it, the social services accept it, the Criminal Injuries Compensation Panel accept it. It doesn't seem relevant at all who Richard Green is when what he says isn't in dispute.

----------


## Tubthumper

> But you are the only one here reading UKColumn, I read the Press and Journal and the Palestine Telegraph. I've seen no one talking about UKColumn except you.
> 
> So which parts of the Press and Journal article do you claim aren't true and what is your evidence?


The P&J article is all true. The woman 'claimed' that events took place. She 'alleged' that things happened. Read between the lines, even the P&J were unwilling to pick it up and run with it. Was that because they were warned off? No, they wouldnt touch the story because it's not verifiable, and dare I say it, probably untrue.
And now, no doubt, you'll screech in outrage because I've dared to say that which should never be said. That makes me either a freemason or a lizard, doesn't it?

----------


## Tubthumper

> But you are the only one here reading UKColumn, I read the Press and Journal and the Palestine Telegraph. I've seen no one talking about UKColumn except you.
> So which parts of the Press and Journal article do you claim aren't true and what is your evidence?


I'm surprised at you again Fred. The UKColumn is where all the allegations are sourced from, where Robert Green makes his reports, where the bile and vitriol and links to extremist websites is rooted.
Do you mean to tell me you're posting without doing any checks at all??

----------


## Stavro

> That makes me either a freemason or a lizard, doesn't it?



Perhaps both.  :Smile:

----------


## Tubthumper

> Perhaps both.


Free lizard or illumimason...
Weird. Welcome back by the way.

----------


## fred

> The P&J article is all true. The woman 'claimed' that events took place. She 'alleged' that things happened. Read between the lines, even the P&J were unwilling to pick it up and run with it. Was that because they were warned off? No, they wouldnt touch the story because it's not verifiable, and dare I say it, probably untrue.
> And now, no doubt, you'll screech in outrage because I've dared to say that which should never be said. That makes me either a freemason or a lizard, doesn't it?


What makes you think you might be a lizard? Have you spoken to your doctor about this?

You say probably untrue but the doctors, social workers and at least one police officer connected with the case say definitely true and unless you come up with more than you saying it isn't. I think I, like any other rational person, will have to believe them. I honestly don't think the Criminal Injuries Compensation people would fork out 13,500 if they weren't reasonably sure what she says is true.

Do you have any evidence to support your beliefs? The ones about Hollie I mean, not the lizard ones.

----------


## fred

> I'm surprised at you again Fred. The UKColumn is where all the allegations are sourced from, where Robert Green makes his reports, where the bile and vitriol and links to extremist websites is rooted.
> Do you mean to tell me you're posting without doing any checks at all??


Like I said, I don't read the UKColumn so it isn't where my information is sourced from and I'm pretty sure that isn't where the P&J get their information from either.

But I may just look it up, any site which impresses you such can't be all bad I'm sure.

----------


## Stavro

> Free lizard or illumimason...
> Weird. Welcome back by the way.


Thank you!

"I am not a number, I am a free lizard."

"illumimason" - I like that.  :Smile:

----------


## Tubthumper

Fred, I asked, as you have often done, for facts. The only references I've found regarding this 'case' are CLAIMS that reports were made, compensation was paid and so on. 
I fear that there is no reliable information that any such events have taken place. Therefore it can be surmised that the allegations are untrue. Those who are accused stand innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof lies with the plaintiff.
Best regards
Liz

----------


## Tubthumper

> Thank you!
> 
> "I am not a number, I am a free lizard."
> 
> "illumimason" - I like that.


A cheap lizard, anyway. Try saying 'illumimason' after a few Aftershocks...

----------


## Tubthumper

> Like I said, I don't read the UKColumn so it isn't where my information is sourced from and I'm pretty sure that isn't where the P&J get their information from either.


Where is your information sourced from, Fred?
The P&J stated exactly where they got their info from, from Ann Greig. And they reported the facts as well, that she 'stated, claimed, alleged...'
I thought you were wise in the legal niceties?

----------


## Stavro

> The burden of proof lies with the plaintiff.
> Best regards
> Liz


Ah, not so within the Scottish system for the civil matter of defamation - in this instance, the defender would have to prove that the claims were justified.

So if Robert Green were taken to court for defamation, then Mr Green would need to prove that his claims were justified.

This seems undoubtedly to be the very last thing that certain people want. Hence, Grampian Constabulary, instead of actually questioning a suspect irrespective of that suspect's job title, arrested Mr Green for walking along the street in Aberdeen and put him in prison for Friday/Saturday/Sunday, before whisking him off to Stonehaven of all places, where Robert Green's name did not appear on the court listing and his case was heard behind closed doors!

----------


## fred

> Fred, I asked, as you have often done, for facts. The only references I've found regarding this 'case' are CLAIMS that reports were made, compensation was paid and so on. 
> I fear that there is no reliable information that any such events have taken place. Therefore it can be surmised that the allegations are untrue. Those who are accused stand innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof lies with the plaintiff.
> Best regards
> Liz


Are you claiming reports weren't made, are you saying that Hollie didn't receive payment from the Criminal Injuries Board? Have you any evidence to support your claims? Do you think the P&J just made it all up?

----------


## Tubthumper

> Ah, not so within the Scottish system for the civil matter of defamation - in this instance, the defender would have to prove that the claims were justified.
> 
> So if Robert Green were taken to court for defamation, then Mr Green would need to prove that his claims were justified.
> 
> This seems undoubtedly to be the very last thing that certain people want. Hence, Grampian Constabulary, instead of actually questioning a suspect irrespective of that suspect's job title, arrested Mr Green for walking along the street in Aberdeen and put him in prison for Friday/Saturday/Sunday, before whisking him off to Stonehaven of all places, where Robert Green's name did not appear on the court listing and his case was heard behind closed doors!


Ah, but he got done for Breach of the Peace, probably based on unsubstantiated wickedness distributed electronically.
Stav, what would you do if someone alleged on a web blog that you were a child rapist and mass murderer evading justice? And initiated a witch-hunt that resulted in your ability to do your job being compromised and your windows getting panned?

----------


## Tubthumper

> Are you claiming reports weren't made, are you saying that Hollie didn't receive payment from the Criminal Injuries Board? Have you any evidence to support your claims? Do you think the P&J just made it all up?


P&J didn't make anything up, they reported such facts as were presented: Mrs Greig alleged that this happened, she claimed that that happened, apparently that a payment was made, apparently Annie Lennox is supportive. None of which is backed up by anything. Where are your facts, troll boy?

----------


## fred

> Where is your information sourced from, Fred?
> The P&J stated exactly where they got their info from, from Ann Greig. And they reported the facts as well, that she 'stated, claimed, alleged...'
> I thought you were wise in the legal niceties?


The headline speaks for itself "Hollie tells police she was abused by sheriff".

All I'm seeing is you calling this poor abused girl a liar and refusing to present any evidence whatsoever to back your allegations.

Hollie may have down's syndrome but I think she knows if she was abused or not and I think she knows who did it.

Now I have repeated my evidence enough times already, are you going to present any evidence whatsoever to back your claims that Hollie is a liar?

----------


## Tubthumper

> The headline speaks for itself "Hollie tells police she was abused by sheriff".


Yes, her Mum says she told Police she was abused. That's 100% correct.



> All I'm seeing is you calling this poor abused girl a liar and refusing to present any evidence whatsoever to back your allegations.


 You're being a chancer again Fred, you've presented no evidence that anything actually happened and are doing the bluster thing. She was 'allegedly abused'. And it's probably not her who is a liar.



> Hollie may have down's syndrome but I think she knows if she was abused or not and I think she knows who did it.


You're very patronising, indeed you're horrible. People with DS aren't completely ignorant, incapable of speech, person recognition or communication as you imply. They may however be susceptible to the controlling influences of others.



> Now I have repeated my evidence enough times already, are you going to present any evidence whatsoever to back your claims that Hollie is a liar?


 You have repeated no evidence whatsoever, you are a chancer and a bluffer. And probably the best Troll this site has ever known.

----------


## Stavro

> Stav, what would you do if someone alleged on a web blog that you were a child rapist and mass murderer evading justice? And initiated a witch-hunt that ...


I would contact the person concerned and ask them for a formal, written apology and for them to desist from doing anything similar in the future. If that did not result in an apology and retraction, then I would issue proceedings against them in the local sheriff court for defamation.

My Dad did exactly that against some liars who were making wild allegations against my family on a public forum. The liars had to issue a written apology, since they had nothing to substantiate their lies, and the apology is recorded at the court in question.

A satisfactory conclusion. End of story.

Now, if my Dad can do that and he is not a solicitor, then why can't someone *who is* a solicitor do it?

----------


## Tubthumper

> I would contact the person concerned and ask them for a formal, written apology and for them to desist from doing anything similar in the future. If that did not result in an apology and retraction, then I would issue proceedings against them in the local sheriff court for defamation.
> My Dad did exactly that against some liars who were making wild allegations against my family on a public forum. The liars had to issue a written apology, since they had nothing to substantiate their lies, and the apology is recorded at the court in question.
> A satisfactory conclusion. End of story.
> Now, if my Dad can do that and he is not a solicitor, then why can't someone *who is* a solicitor do it?


Stav, I put it to you that that solution is precisely what the alleged abusers would prefer. However, your dad is just a local numpty with no influence, I suspect his accuser was a similarly disenfranchised numpty, therefore the situation was very simple. Apology, the few people who were interested are happy, end of. 
In Fred's case, the 'accused' are in positions of authority (making them classic targets for the paranoid revenge brigade) and the accusers seek only attention, are utterly irrational and are devoid of (a) resource (b) morals and (c) any reason to cease and desist. 
How do you 'stop' facebook? What can be done to salvage your reputation in the face of online lies? What does one do when the paranoid brigade get paranoid because you point out they're paranoid?

----------


## Stavro

> Stav, I put it to you that that solution is precisely what the alleged abusers would prefer. However, your dad is just a local numpty with no influence, I suspect his accuser was a similarly disenfranchised numpty, therefore the situation was very simple. Apology, the few people who were interested are happy, end of. 
> In Fred's case, the 'accused' are in positions of authority (making them classic targets for the paranoid revenge brigade) and the accusers seek only attention, are utterly irrational and are devoid of (a) resource (b) morals and (c) any reason to cease and desist. 
> How do you 'stop' facebook? What can be done to salvage your reputation in the face of online lies? What does one do when the paranoid brigade get paranoid because you point out they're paranoid?


Are you suggesting that we call our buddy, the Chief Constable, and arrange for the accuser to be carted off to the cells for "breach of the peace"?

Scottish Law caters for this situation under the name of defamation and procedures are well in place to deal with it.

If Mr Green or Mrs Grieg had lost a defamation case brought against them and continued to make the claims that they had been unable to substantiate or justify, then I accept that it would become a matter for the police.

It seems that the only numpty here is yourself, Tubthumper.

----------


## Tubthumper

> Are you suggesting that we call our buddy, the Chief Constable, and arrange for the accuser to be carted off to the cells for "breach of the peace"?
> Scottish Law caters for this situation under the name of defamation and procedures are well in place to deal with it.
> If Mr Green or Mrs Grieg had lost a defamation case brought against them and continued to make the claims that they had been unable to substantiate or justify, then I accept that it would become a matter for the police.
> It seems that the only numpty here is yourself, Tubthumper.


But Stav, the protocol (as advised by the PF) is for prosecution under B of the P as there is a good chance of getting a result. It applies to online bullying by internet or SMS as well. Good range of punishments available too. Didn't you notice that Mr Green's gone all quiet, BTW?
Oh Stav, don't resort to abuse: I meant your dad was a numpty in the general sense, not the specific.

----------


## Stavro

> Didn't you notice that Mr Green's gone all quiet, BTW?


Of course he has gone quiet. I thought that you had referenced Ukcolumn.org? Did you not first read what you had referenced?

Robert Green has a gagging order and a restriction of liberty order placed upon him.

----------


## fred

> Yes, her Mum says she told Police she was abused. That's 100% correct.
>  You're being a chancer again Fred, you've presented no evidence that anything actually happened and are doing the bluster thing. She was 'allegedly abused'. And it's probably not her who is a liar.
> 
> You're very patronising, indeed you're horrible. People with DS aren't completely ignorant, incapable of speech, person recognition or communication as you imply. They may however be susceptible to the controlling influences of others.
>  You have repeated no evidence whatsoever, you are a chancer and a bluffer. And probably the best Troll this site has ever known.


Hollie said she was abused, she told the police who abused her, that is hard evidence.

You still haven't presented your evidence to support your claim that she is a liar.

----------


## ducati

> Of course he has gone quiet. I thought that you had referenced Ukcolumn.org? Did you not first read what you had referenced?
> 
> Robert Green has a gagging order and a restriction of liberty order placed upon him.


Because......?

----------


## Stavro

> Because......?


You tell me ...

----------


## Tubthumper

> Of course he has gone quiet. I thought that you had referenced Ukcolumn.org? Did you not first read what you had referenced? Robert Green has a gagging order and a restriction of liberty order placed upon him.


Because he committed a Breach of the Peace in that he did, by means of an electronic media, publish unsubstantiated rumour with malicious intent, likely to cause alarm and despondency, and associated distress. And acted with intent to, or was in the process of, actions likely to cause further Breach of said Peace in that he was actively engaged in behaviour intended to cause damage to the reputation of another. And all because someone said something. Amazing, eh? Especially as Fred reckons Hollie is only just capable of recognising someone.
Now that you've actually examined the sole source of all this stuff, what's your opinion of the UKColumn site, Stav? You seem like an intelligent chap, by the way.

----------


## Tubthumper

> Hollie said she was abused, she told the police who abused her, that is hard evidence. You still haven't presented your evidence to support your claim that she is a liar.


No, Hollie's Mum says she said she was abused, Hollie's Mum says Hollie told the Police who abused her, according to a newspaper report. That is not evidence. You still haven't presented your evidence to support your claim that abuse took place.
You old troll, you!  :Smile:

----------


## ywindythesecond

What is the proven basis in fact that Hollie has received Criminal Injuries Compensation?

----------


## ducati

Quick Time out.

Very polarised this. May I humbly suggest why.

People see the world in different ways

Certain people expect the worst from the establishment: Government, Police, Judiciary, Military et all. So when a case that supports that view comes along it takes no effort to believe and embrace.

and certain people see the establishment as generally having our interests at heart, being on the whole a positive force if you will.

So when they see the same story they are likely to be sceptical.

So I guess it is about your predisposition to believe or not.

Well that was kind of pointless- carry on 
 ::

----------


## fred

> No, Hollie's Mum says she said she was abused, Hollie's Mum says Hollie told the Police who abused her, according to a newspaper report. That is not evidence. You still haven't presented your evidence to support your claim that abuse took place.
> You old troll, you!


Yes it is evidence. If someone goes to the police and tells them they have been assaulted that is evidence, it is evidence which can be used in court. It is the basis of most court cases, someone has gone to the police and reported a crime and unless the police can come up with solid evidence a crime has not been committed that evidence has to be accepted.

What is your evidence that Hollie is a liar?

----------


## Stavro

> Because he committed a Breach of the Peace in that he did, by means of an electronic media, publish unsubstantiated rumour with malicious intent, likely to cause alarm and despondency, and associated distress. And acted with intent to, or was in the process of, actions likely to cause further Breach of said Peace in that he was actively engaged in behaviour intended to cause damage to the reputation of another. And all because someone said something. Amazing, eh? Especially as Fred reckons Hollie is only just capable of recognising someone.
> Now that you've actually examined the sole source of all this stuff, what's your opinion of the UKColumn site, Stav? You seem like an intelligent chap, by the way.


Now Tub, flattery won't get you anywhere.

Fred has already made it clear to those that bother to read what he writes, that his main source is the Palestine Telegraph, so the UKColumn is not the sole source as you claim. In fact, this battle (for want of a better word) has been going on for over 10 years, and is only coming out into the open now.

You know that I answered your question, but we both know that my answer was not what you wanted to hear.

Also, and again as Fred has been trying to make clear, this is not "unsubstantiated rumour," because Hollie and seven others have been interviewed by the police and not discounted as unreliable witnesses. And if you claim that Ann Grieg's brother did not die in a burnt-out car, then where is _your_ evidence to substantiate that claim.

But let us not digress too much.

Let me now ask you a question: Given the nature of the allegations made against a serving sheriff, do you think that the police should interview that sheriff about those allegations?

----------


## Tubthumper

> Now Tub, flattery won't get you anywhere.
> Fred has already made it clear to those that bother to read what he writes, that his main source is the Palestine Telegraph, so the UKColumn is not the sole source as you claim. In fact, this battle (for want of a better word) has been going on for over 10 years, and is only coming out into the open now.
> You know that I answered your question, but we both know that my answer was not what you wanted to hear.
> Also, and again as Fred has been trying to make clear, this is not "unsubstantiated rumour," because Hollie and seven others have been interviewed by the police and not discounted as unreliable witnesses. And if you claim that Ann Grieg's brother did not die in a burnt-out car, then where is _your_ evidence to substantiate that claim.
> But let us not digress too much. Let me now ask you a question: Given the nature of the allegations made against a serving sheriff, do you think that the police should interview that sheriff about those allegations?


Stav, it's ALL unsubstantiated rumour! People have apparently been interviewed, there isn't a scrap of information anywhere on the web that backs anything up. It's all from the same source, and none of it can be corroborated. Just because someone says something on the web does not mean it's true. And just because lots of people repeat it doesn't make it any less rubbish! And just because (in order to make the scandal seem more plausible) 'important' people are named doesn't make it any more more true!! And just because it is featured in the Kazakhstan Gazette and Wildfowl Breeders Monthly doesn't mean it's not garbage!!!
Grampian Police HAVE investigated, and no further action has been taken. End of. Finito.

----------


## rich

> Well no, it isn't, you're just making that up.
> 
> No one else has argued that Hollie wasn't abused except you, the police accept it, the courts accept it, the social services accept it, the Criminal Injuries Compensation Panel accept it. It doesn't seem relevant at all who Richard Green is when what he says isn't in dispute.


Fred, where did I argue that the abuse never occurred?
In my argument the question is who was responsible for the abuse.
You are getting wilder with each post.

----------


## Tubthumper

> Yes it is evidence. If someone goes to the police and tells them they have been assaulted that is evidence, it is evidence which can be used in court. It is the basis of most court cases, someone has gone to the police and reported a crime and unless the police can come up with solid evidence a crime has not been committed that evidence has to be accepted.
> 
> What is your evidence that Hollie is a liar?


It's not evidence, as quoted it's an allegation. People make an allegation to the Police, the Police seek evidence. In Fredworld, an unsubstantiated allegation might be evidence but not in mine. 
Are you sure it's not a breach of contract?
By the way, where's your evidence that Hollie actually said anything at all?

----------


## fred

> Fred, where did I argue that the abuse never occurred?
> In my argument the question is who was responsible for the abuse.
> You are getting wilder with each post.


But Hollie has told the police who abused her, there is no evidence I have seen that she is lying, medical evidence and the evidence of a senior police officer suggests she is not.

----------


## Tubthumper

> But Hollie has told the police who abused her, there is no evidence I have seen that she is lying, medical evidence and the evidence of a senior police officer suggests she is not.


What evidence have you seen, Fred?

----------


## Tubthumper

> ...there is no evidence I have seen ...


Smartest thing you've said all night, trolly!  ::

----------


## fred

> What evidence have you seen, Fred?


None whatsoever from you.

----------


## fred

> Smartest thing you've said all night, trolly!


Now look this is just getting ridiculous.

Why do you keep calling me a troll? I have made sensible arguments, I have posted links to the relevant information.

You come in here with unfounded accusations, you post no links to back your claims, you call me names.

Once again the org bullies are just shouting down those who do not agree with them. Another thread totally disrupted.

----------


## Tubthumper

> Quick Time out. Very polarised this. May I humbly suggest why. People see the world in different ways. Certain people expect the worst from the establishment: Government, Police, Judiciary, Military et all. So when a case that supports that view comes along it takes no effort to believe and embrace. And certain people see the establishment as generally having our interests at heart, being on the whole a positive force if you will.
> So when they see the same story they are likely to be sceptical.
> So I guess it is about your predisposition to believe or not.
> Well that was kind of pointless- carry on


You're right Ducati. This polarisation is the problem. If I can use my own case as an example - I am a gentle soul, soft of demeanour, kind to animals, of a poetic twist. I shrug often, and try to see the best in people, even when they're a bit dim. And when I argue, I try to use what little intellect I've been blessed with, to see all sides, to appreciate the other's point of view. Even when some negative types use twisted logic to pull the guts out of things I believe in, and which are important to me, the stuff that makes me _ME,_ I try to look for a positive twist. 
Sometimes, though, my early developmental period snaps in and I revert to a more primitive persona, one which relies less on logic, whose rationale is more fundamantal, who has more in common with a Hippo than a Hamster. And it scares me sometimes, what I could become.
Does that make me a bad person? :Frown:

----------


## Tubthumper

> Now look this is just getting ridiculous.


Yep.



> Why do you keep calling me a troll? I have made sensible arguments, I have posted links to the relevant information.


You've offered nothing. All your links and evidence amount to nowt, as usual. No you haven't linked, you are a troll.



> You come in here with unfounded accusations, you post no links to back your claims, you call me names.


What accusations? That you have no evidence of your claims (verified) That Hollie's claims are pants (verified) That once again you've descended to accusing others of failing to give evidence while providing none of your own (verified)? By the way Ducati and northerner will back me up, which is more evidence than YOUR claims have gathered.



> Once again the org bullies are just shouting down those who do not agree with them. Another thread totally disrupted.


 Report it to the Mods then, trolly! :: 
You're crying cos you got beat. Again. You always get beat and you always cry. Because you miss the point. It's not bullying, it's the righteous exposure of a chancer, a cheat, a scoundrel!
Yay, Fred got beat again, Fred's crying, Fred's wrong as usual!!

----------


## fred

> You're right Ducati. This polarisation is the problem. If I can use my own case as an example - I am a gentle soul, soft of demeanour, kind to animals, of a poetic twist. I shrug often, and try to see the best in people, even when they're a bit dim. And when I argue, I try to ue what intellect I've been blessed with, to see all sides, to appreciate the other''s point of view. Even when some negative types use twisted logic to pull the things I believe in, which are important to me, the stuiff that makes me _ME,_ I look for a positive twist. Sometimes, though, my early developmental period snaps in and I revert to a more primitive persona, one which relies less on logic, whose rationale is more fundamantalist, who has more in common with a Hippo than a Hamster. And it scares me sometimes, what I could become.
> Does that make me a bad person?


Look could we please stick to the facts of this case.

I for one take the sexual abuse of children very seriously.

There are threads on this forum where people are saying things I don't much agree with, like the Biker's ride to Wooton Basset thread but I have stayed out of it, I could have gone in there and disrupted it, turned it into a senseless argument as you have this thread but I didn't.

Could those of us with a genuine interest in this subject please be allowed to discuss it in peace without being hounded by the org bullies. If you have links to any evidence contradicting that in the links posted by all means post it but please don't just come in here replying to every post insisting you are right with nothing to back it up.

----------


## Tubthumper

What evidence have you seen Fred?



> None whatsoever...


Yay!

----------


## Tubthumper

> Look could we please stick to the facts of this case.


Yes, let's. Please tell us what the facts of this case are Fred.



> I for one take the sexual abuse of children very seriously.


You don't have a monopoly on that. I, for example, resent very much cases where attention is drawn and sensation encouraged, based on abuse and disability, where it threatens to undermine genuine cases. Like rape cases, where every false accusation makes it more difficult for the real ones to be prosecuted. And I resent people hijacking causes for their own nefarious ends.



> There are threads on this forum where people are saying things I don't much agree with, like the Biker's ride to Wooton Basset thread but I have stayed out of it, I could have gone in there and disrupted it, turned it into a senseless argument as you have this thread but I didn't.


What has that got to do with Hollie Greig? A senseless argument? Because you're losing the argument?



> Could those of us with a genuine interest in this subject please be allowed to discuss it in peace without being hounded by the org bullies. If you have links to any evidence contradicting that in the links posted by all means post it but please don't just come in here replying to every post insisting you are right with nothing to back it up.


 If you have links, Fred, to any actual evidence backing up these allegations, please post it. You haven't so far. That's because there is none. And you hate it. And you're squirming. And you're calling me a bully, because I'm exposing you for the chancer you are. And no-one's defending you. You've got away with this for too long Fred, face up to your limitations, put your ego aside. There are causes out therein the real world worth fighting for - pick one, find evidence, fight for it. Then you'll earn respect.

----------


## fred

I'm sorry everyone who wanted to see these issues raised.

It has been made impossible to debate this subject with so much deliberate disruption.

----------

