# General > General >  I am so annoyed at school

## Tugmistress

Brief outline ...
yesterday my daughter had a dispute with two teachers at school (after repeatedly asking politely to go to the loo and being refused she said an unfortunate phrase which i cannot repeat on here). she later apologised to one teacher who was man enough to accept the apology the other teacher was not seen again until this morning.
this morning on her way to school she went over on her weak ankle (previously broken twice) and ended up in dunbar via ambulance. i was informed of this just gone 9am as they wanted to send her to wick for x-rays.
i collected her from dunbar then as a courtesy i called in with her to school as we passed on our way to wick (she is on crutches and strapped up at this point) to explain her absence. 
we go 'told' we 'had to' go and see the rector about the incident yesterday first! i was gobsmacked, we got ushered upstairs and the rector just basically started lecturing my daughter with no chance of her 'side of the story' and when my daughter stated that she had apologised to one teacher but not seen the other, the rector said 'that's not good enough'. for crying out loud, what more does the rector want?!
to cap it all, after i told the rector that any discussions or rows could wait until my daughter had attended hospital we saw the other teacher involved, so without being prompted my daughter went and said 'miss, i would like to apologise for yesterday' to which i expected the teacher to listen but no, she just said 'no, i need to speak to the rector first'!

i am totally and utterly disgusted at this attitude, especially as we had no need to call in and explain my daughters absence, but i was brought up with manners. 
for a teacher to blatantly throw an offered apology from a child back at her face shows absolutely no respect. 
my daughter admitted she did wrong yesterday, she has tried to apologise and had it thrown back in her face, and at about 2.30 this afternoon another teacher from the school rang up to say she was excluded for the rest of the week.
I have lost any respect for this school i had. To me, the job of informing me as a parent of my daughters exclusion, should be the recors or deputy rectors, and i am disgusted at being 'herded' into a forced meeting with an injured and in pain child before she had even been treated at hospital.

sorry, rant over but i still feel peeved.

----------


## sjwahwah

i understand your annoyance!

----------


## candyfloss

I'm not supprized your still peeved, i think i would be too ::

----------


## footie chick

Glad it wasn't me there is no way I would have been able to keep my cool!  Its disgusting that they didn't listen to your daughters apology.  Hope her ankle gets better soon.

----------


## buggyracer

i would be back on the phone asking for a meeting with the rector, remind them that as much as they may like to think they are god they are infact not! after all your daughter may be tarred with being a troublemaker for the rest of her school days!

----------


## orkneylass

can I suggest another approach, once everyone has calmed down? without assuming blame on either side, can i suggest that you arrange to meet with the head teacher to do the following

1. Express your puzzlement at the way the situation was handled and say that you need clarification on one or two points
2. Ask if children leaving class to use the loo has been a problem and an abused situation, either in general terms or with your daughter in particular.
3. Ask whether your daughter's behaviour and use of language is a general problem or if this was an isolated incident (We are all unaware here of EXACTLY what she said!).
4. State that whatever the situation, you would appreciate being dealt with in a courteous manner and with respect, setting a good example to the children. You felt that you had been ordered and admonished whereas perhaps a polite request to discuss a concern would have been a better way to handle things.
5. Ask for clear direction on what you and your daughter can do to put things right and ensure that something like this does not happen again - and ask in return what the school thinks it may do differently.

No matter what, i hope that you have not expressed your feelings to your daughter in the same way as you have on this forum - no matter what the rights and wrongs it is never helpful to undermine the authority of teachers to children (I am no fan of teachers myself but I do feel this most sincerely)

Good luck! Sleep on it!

----------


## changilass

I agree with the above post.  Wait till you can calm down enough, then call and speak to the rector.  Good luck, hope your daughter gets better soon

----------


## Tugmistress

Orkney lass,
rightly or wrongly, my daughter knows exactly how i feel  about this matter.
I am in the process of writing to the ECS at wick with a complaint about both matters today.
maybe i am an old stick in the mud, but, i was brought up that respect is earnt, and i had respect for the rector and others teachers because that is how i start off, but now, the teacher that was man enough to accept the apology has my every respect, but the rector and the other teacher involved have shown me their ignorance to listen. that has lost them my respect.
all the concerns you listed are being drafted into my complaint.

----------


## Buttercup

*Hope your daughter's better soon.* 
*We all say things and think later and we're all - well the vast majority anyway - prone to an expletive now and again but most folks accept an apology. While I don't condone this part of what happened I think the teacher/rector should've accepted the freely given apology. However, I do think it's time something was done to stem the flood of new rules and regulations that have come from THS lately. The new rector does seem to be putting her foot down very heavily and is certainly making a name for herself - maybe not quite the kind she would want but a name nevertheless!*
*Change is sometimes better introduced gradually.*

----------


## unicorn

I wouldn't have thought anyone has the right to refuse a child to go to the toilet anyway, thats absolutely ridiculous.

----------


## mccaugm

When I was about 10  or 11 I took issue with the treatment that I received with a teacher in my school. She was just a bad teacher with little or no control of the children in her class.... Very much a Miss! 
In time my sons went to the same school I did and she still taught there. I refused to have her teach my children on 2 occasions as I felt she may treat them with the same disrepect she gave me.  I subsequently found out that various children had been moved out of the school because of her. 
There was a school/parents evening and it took me to the age of 30 plus to stand up and tell her exactly how I felt. She never even acknowledged her behaviour and I never got an apology. I am glad to say that when the headship came up  on a few occasions she never got it.  ::

----------


## rockchick

Tugmistress,

While I can understand your frustration and concern (not to mention annoyance!) if the situation is exactly as your daughter has portrayed it, you may want to step back and just check that everything is as it should be.  If your daughter is in the right, then you haven't lost anything; but if she isn't, then you are missing a golden opportunity to put things right.

I don't know how old your daughter is, or what school she's in, but my husband is a teacher and I know the difficulties he has with children who are "absolute angels" at home, never give a problem, but are terrors on the schoolground.  I hope your daughter doesn't fall into this category, but if she did, wouldn't you want to know?

If she is in the right, and you can't sort things with the school, can you switch schools?

----------


## Chillie

Who is the rector in Thurso High now.

----------


## Elenna

We had a similar incident with our son not that long ago at WHS, though in our case, I would say our son was definitely in the wrong. However, we were also "summoned" by phone by a staff member to see the (new) rector, without actually having a clear idea what had happened.  While in that meeting, we were told that using "language" to a teacher, administrator, or other staff member results in immediate exclusion. 

We did not know this, nor did our son. And while I certainly do not condone children using improper language in the first place...let alone to a teacher or any other adult, especially one in authority, and I also do understand the need to maintain discipline...my thought is that surely exclusion should be a last resort for serious or dangerous offences, or repeated, intentionally improper behavior, not handed out so widely for something that could be dealt with by other means, and especially when the child has apologised.

I very much hope that you are able to come to a satisfactory conclusion with the school on this, Tugmistress, and that your daughter's ankle heals quickly  :Smile: 

Elenna

----------


## young_fishin_neep

hello everybody,my ankle is very sore but i will live, chillie the rector of the school is now Dr Fiona Grant.

rockchick - i dont have a name for myself at the school and never had, i was a "little madam" in so many words when i was in high school in england, and, have been determind to keep my head down in school up here, when i first attended the school before moving to england i was never one to get on the wrong side of teachers and i suppose you could call me a bit of a "swat"  now i am back i am still the same swat as i was before but i may talk a bitmore in lesson but i certainly dont cause trouble for myself with the teachers.

kaz xx

----------


## Ricco

Hi, Tugmistress.

Firstly, I hope that your daughter is better soon - I know that these htings can take a long time to heal.  Secondly, I think that both the Rector and the second teacher are being totally squiffy about this - especially the teacher.  When your daughter is obviously in discomfort and has been brave enough to apologise I think that the teacher is behaving in an unacceptable manner to have snubbed both of you so.  I should be a reasonble judge of this as I have been successfully teaching for some 30 years now.

I should wait for a day or two and then insist on a meeting with both the Rector and the teacher - take the deal straight to them.

----------


## paris

Well said Tugmistress,  Not many parents have the guts to speak up for their children when things like this happen, ok ,so we all know our kids can be and are bad sometimes but some teachers do think they are one above the rest and they are not.

----------


## Rheghead

> but some teachers do think they are one above the rest and they are not.


They have to act that way to set social boundaries.  I mean that they are the teachers and the kids are the pupils.  I always found that the teachers who tried to be all chummy and nice actually got rode rough shod by the mob and discipline suffered.

----------


## ice box

> Brief outline ...
> yesterday my daughter had a dispute with two teachers at school (after repeatedly asking politely to go to the loo and being refused she said an unfortunate phrase which i cannot repeat on here). she later apologised to one teacher who was man enough to accept the apology the other teacher was not seen again until this morning.
> this morning on her way to school she went over on her weak ankle (previously broken twice) and ended up in dunbar via ambulance. i was informed of this just gone 9am as they wanted to send her to wick for x-rays.
> i collected her from dunbar then as a courtesy i called in with her to school as we passed on our way to wick (she is on crutches and strapped up at this point) to explain her absence. 
> we go 'told' we 'had to' go and see the rector about the incident yesterday first! i was gobsmacked, we got ushered upstairs and the rector just basically started lecturing my daughter with no chance of her 'side of the story' and when my daughter stated that she had apologised to one teacher but not seen the other, the rector said 'that's not good enough'. for crying out loud, what more does the rector want?!
> to cap it all, after i told the rector that any discussions or rows could wait until my daughter had attended hospital we saw the other teacher involved, so without being prompted my daughter went and said 'miss, i would like to apologise for yesterday' to which i expected the teacher to listen but no, she just said 'no, i need to speak to the rector first'!
> 
> i am totally and utterly disgusted at this attitude, especially as we had no need to call in and explain my daughters absence, but i was brought up with manners. 
> for a teacher to blatantly throw an offered apology from a child back at her face shows absolutely no respect. 
> ...


Tuggs sorry to hear about your daughters ankle hope she gets well soon .

i wasnt going to reply but anyway  you talking about a teacher not having the respect for your daughter but it seems to me that your daughter didn't have respect for the teacher as she wouldnt of said what she did .

----------


## JAWS

Tugmistress, I'm afraid my reaction to the demands of the school would have been to advise them that my child's health and well being was far to important for me to be wandering round the school seeing people and  that I had no intention to add to a Hospital's problems by keeping them waiting. 
I would then have politely advised them that I would make the necessary arrangements to see whoever wished to speak to me when my child was fit to return to school and I myself was available. 

As far as the reaction to your daughter's apology I can now see the cause of complaints that children are rude and thoughtless. All the Teacher needed to do was to acknowledge your daughter's apology and that it would be taken into consideration when a suitable punishment had been decided on. 

Where I in your daughter's position all I would have learned is that apologising as a complete waste of time so why bother.

----------


## Tugmistress

> Tuggs sorry to hear about your daughters ankle hope she gets well soon .
> 
> i wasnt going to reply but anyway  you talking about a teacher not having the respect for your daughter but it seems to me that your daughter didn't have respect for the teacher as she wouldnt of said what she did .


She had asked politely repeatedly to go to the loo, and was refused this request. i think in the same situation i would have uttered something similar under the same circumstances. i know some kids can take the mickey and forever want to be in and out, but my daughter has kept her head down and got on with work according to all her school reports.

----------


## Tugmistress

Jaws,
i was just so taken aback at what was said and how it was said that i suppose i let myself be taken up to the office through shock. apparently the rectors face when i did intervene would have made a picture. sense did kick in after a couple of minutes  :Smile:

----------


## brokencross

Tugmistress, you mention two teachers were involved in this incident; so was it a normal lesson or were the class involved in an exam or a test where leaving the classroom was not permitted without an escort?  
I am afraid swearing at teachers is totally unacceptable and I cannot see any justification for it in this case.  In many cases it is the thin edge of the wedge regarding disruptive behaviour.  
I agree a sincere apology should have sufficed, been accepted, and your daughter warned as to her future conduct.
However reading between the lines I feel more has gone on than maybe your daughter is admitting.  I know we parents have "selective hearing" when it comes to our children so may I suggest you have the full facts from all sides and witnesses before flying off the handle with the school and the educational establishment.  Hope she gets better soon, as she is off school it may be a good chance to have a chat about the incident and the school in general.

p.s. Washing your laundry in public is not always a good idea.

----------


## orkneylass

To add to the comment about washing dirty linen, i think it is a pity that specfic comments have been made about named teachers. Community Forums should avoid this kind of thing. We had a community chat forum in orkney that had to be shut down because people were basically libelling named residents from behind their avatars etc

----------


## brokencross

Orkneylass.
I couldn't agree more, message boards should reflect opinions and discuss matters in a grown up manner without becoming too personal and offensive.

----------


## squidge

I had a situation with my son at WHS.  My boy never ever suffers fools gladly - if he thinks someone is stupid they will know it and thats exactly what he thought about this particular teacher.  He had several "run ins" with this particular teacher and whilst i accepted that the man was targeting my boy i refused to go into school.  If he was rude he had to apologise and  my son knew i would not take my sons side if he was badly behaved nor support his bad language.  We talked about the best way of dealing with this, he spoke to his guidance teacher and My son went to speak to the teacher concerned outside a lesson to try to improve things and got an agreement that he wouldnt be targetted again.   Only when ALL this had failed did i make an appointment with the Rector to discuss it.  I acknowledged that my boy was not behaving very well with this teacher but i pointed out that the teacher was actually the grown up in this situation and had not taken steps to resolve the issue.  Although i was prepared for a fight I didnt need one.  The rector agreed that my boy was being unfairly treated, steps were taken to resolve it and the teacher left him alone after this.  

I'm not sure why what we did succeeded where i know others really struggled to get things done but it did.  I really do beleive that children have to be responsible for sorting things out themselves as much as possible

----------


## Elenna

> All the Teacher needed to do was to acknowledge your daughter's apology and that it would be taken into consideration when a suitable punishment had been decided on.





> I agree a sincere apology should have sufficed, been accepted, and your daughter warned as to her future conduct.


I'm not really certain which school it was this incident happened with Tugmistress and her daughter, but as I said earlier, we were told recently that at WHS, the policy is that any swearing at the staff receives immediate, automatic exclusion for the student.

I don't know if this is a new or old policy, or where it may be on record and available to view, or if other parents are aware of it. My opinion is that exclusion, and Automatic at that, is rather heavy-handed for something like this and should be reserved for offenses that are serious, dangerous, or repeated without having shown any regrets. After all, isn't exclusion supposedly the ultimate punishment a school can give out?

With that in place, they don't actually Have to accept any apologies, take anything into consideration, make any allowances for first offences, give warnings, or find any other suitable punishments, etc. 

I would like to think that all incidents are dealt with by considering the complete circumstances, and allowances made, but if this is the rule regarding using inappropriate language, then the teacher(s) and headteacher are actually "within their rights" to just have the child out for whatever length of time.

I understand how difficult it is to maintain discipline in a school, but I also agree that many teachers set extremely bad examples of behavior to their pupils...and then they wonder why the children aren't respectful.  :Frown: 


Elenna

----------


## young_fishin_neep

i have to admitt i didnt have much respect for the one of the teachers in question because of the way he treated the class, he didnt have any respect for us and to call people in the class imbosiles (sp?) and mean it, is a sure way of loosing respect in my eyes, even tho i had little respect for the teacher i still kept my head down and got on with my work.

kaz xx

----------


## mccaugm

Not happy with the new dress code either, the pupils and parents voted for Shirt, Tie, Blazer etc by a vast majority but Black hoodies, t-shirts etc was introduced...consulting the parents and pupils was a waste of time.

Anyway....rant over, I don't need to worry about what happens at THS anymore as I'v left wich is a good thing.  :Smile: 

Only had to endure half a year.[/quote]

Sorry to change the thread subject...
I was led to believe that both options were available. I would prefer the blazer option and I HATE hoodies as well. My eldest son wishes to wear the hoodie option and my younger child wishes the blazer. Anyone know when we will recieve theforms for buying the uniform? Also is Wick going to get a uniform?

----------


## Tugmistress

> Tugmistress, you mention two teachers were involved in this incident; so was it a normal lesson or were the class involved in an exam or a test where leaving the classroom was not permitted without an escort?  
> I am afraid swearing at teachers is totally unacceptable and I cannot see any justification for it in this case.  In many cases it is the thin edge of the wedge regarding disruptive behaviour.  
> I agree a sincere apology should have sufficed, been accepted, and your daughter warned as to her future conduct.
> However reading between the lines I feel more has gone on than maybe your daughter is admitting.  I know we parents have "selective hearing" when it comes to our children so may I suggest you have the full facts from all sides and witnesses before flying off the handle with the school and the educational establishment.  Hope she gets better soon, as she is off school it may be a good chance to have a chat about the incident and the school in general.
> 
> p.s. Washing your laundry in public is not always a good idea.


This was a normal lesson. Nothing was said to the teachers infront of other pupils as the  incident for which she has been excluded  took place outside of class.
I know parents have 'selective hearing' but i also know how hard she is trying to get ready for exams next year. 
I do not see this as 'dirty laundry', i aired a greivance and was hoping for some various views and differences of opinion on advice, which i have received both on here and by pm. this is aiding me with a formulation to carry on.

Broken Cross, i have not named names.

I actually received a letter this morning (well lunch time by the time the postie gets to us lol) and included was a leaflet about exclusions.

to quote..
exclusion is a last resort in highland schools.
considering that 
a) she has never had chance to tell 'her side' apart from under undue pressure yesterday whilst in pain and on her way to hopsital
and 
b) she has not had 'previous' to my knowledge for this incident

i rather think i will be making an appointment with the rector and appealing the decision as being extremely unfair.
and yes i am still disgusted at the lack of compassion/concern shown towards her and i yesterday.

----------


## Buttercup

> Not happy with the new dress code either, the pupils and parents voted for Shirt, Tie, Blazer etc by a vast majority but Black hoodies, t-shirts etc was introduced...consulting the parents and pupils was a waste of time.
> 
> Anyway....rant over, I don't need to worry about what happens at THS anymore as I'v left wich is a good thing. 
> 
> Only had to endure half a year.


Sorry to change the thread subject...
I was led to believe that both options were available. I would prefer the blazer option and I HATE hoodies as well. My eldest son wishes to wear the hoodie option and my younger child wishes the blazer. Anyone know when we will recieve theforms for buying the uniform? Also is Wick going to get a uniform?[/quote]

*Believe there is a choice of which to wear and pupils were told that the items would be available to buy locally in Butteress's, I think it was. There's also some shop in Inverness but sorry, I can't remember the name of it. Forms for families on benefits are available now from the school office.*

----------


## squidge

tugmistress

you can also approach the school board too i think

----------


## rfr10

I've only read the first post so don't know if this has been answered but is this Wick High School that this happened at?

----------


## young_fishin_neep

no it is THS it happend at.

----------


## nikki

i go to Wick High School, and although a minority of the teachers do act as if they are "out to get us", since we have gone into different classes with the change of the timetable, I've learnt that it was often only one or two pupils that were causing bother that made the teacher take out their, maybe anger is too strong a word, on the rest of us. i'm now in all higher classes, and the teachers always seem to be in a better mood, because now all the people in my classes work hard. 
everybody has the right to an off day, but im not making excuses for the rector and teachers involved in this incident. from what has been said on the message board, the staff in question severely over-reacted, but on a personal note, i know that if i had been excluded for something and deserved it, i'd play the sweet and innocent to my parents. im not saying your daughter is bending the truth, but make sure u know EVERYTHING before you complain to the school board or anyone else, because if you do and find out you were wrong, there will be red faces all around.

----------


## moose and Lindsay

Hi Karina

Hows your ankle today??

I am just going to send u a pm ok

Lindsay

----------


## katarina

> i have to admitt i didnt have much respect for the one of the teachers in question because of the way he treated the class, he didnt have any respect for us and to call people in the class imbosiles (sp?) and mean it, is a sure way of loosing respect in my eyes, even tho i had little respect for the teacher i still kept my head down and got on with my work.
> 
> kaz xx


to call the kids imbeciles regardless of the reasons, is totally unacceptable.  I would have a very grievious complaint about that if nothing else!

----------


## brokencross

Tugmistress, I must have misunderstood your original posting, you said

"Brief outline ...
yesterday my daughter had a dispute with two teachers at school (after repeatedly asking politely to go to the loo and being refused she said an unfortunate phrase which i cannot repeat on here). she later apologised to one teacher who was man enough to accept the apology the other teacher was not seen again until this morning."

This led me to believe the incident happened in the classroom and the "naughty" things were maybe said in the heat of the moment, but in a later post you say

"This was a normal lesson. Nothing was said to the teachers infront of other pupils as the incident for which she has been excluded took place outside of class."

Not knowing the full facts, but considering the incident happened after the lesson and your daughter could go to the loo and the heat was out of the situation I wonder if her remarks were made directly to the staff members or was it very loud "aside" in earshot of the teachers.  It would make a big difference.

I do feel that if your daughter felt the need to apologise she maybe could made an effort to find the second teacher the same day and put the matter to rest, before the rector was involved.  I know hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Just out of interest, if your daughter was in pain, on crutches and you were on your way to the hospital in Wick, why did you feel the need to actually take her into the school to explain her absence, surely you could have popped in yourself. 

I promise I am not getting at you or your daughter; I am just intrigued as to how what is a comparatively minor incident led to someone being excluded.  If it is as clear cut as you say, the rector and the staff have handled the whole situation very badly and you will be owed one sooper dooper apology.

Good luck with sorting it out.

p.s. Sorry don't know how to do the fancy quote blue boxes

----------


## Fluff

wow, i am so shocked this has happend at THS. maybe i am thinking through rose tinted thought but my memories of THS and doing something, we always had the chance to explain (and i wa far from a troublemaker, even they had a chance to speak).
my memoires of the school are good ones, i really hope it hasnt gone downhill too much.
and i am really shocked dr.grant is now the rector, i always thought mr.bruce would take it over!

----------


## spurtle

If I'd sworn at a teacher the rector would have been the last of my worries and the fact that your daughter even allowed the thought to go through her mind to say anything untoward to her teachers shows the lack of respect generally in schools and to let any child now of your mistrust and disrespect of a teacher is grossly irresponsible.

----------


## Tugmistress

broken cross,
sorry we are getting wires crossed i think lol
the asking to go to the loo, umpteen refusals,  and the offending expletive defining her desperation was in class. This, however, was not the reason given for the exclusion. The exclusion is the disputed fact that she swore at two teachers in the corridor whilst being talked about in front of her. I have always taught her to walk away from an argument if she feels her temper rising and this is what she did muttering an expletive at herself for being so stupid at herself! which it seems has been 'misheard' by the teachers- or as you put it, it was 'an aside' to herself.
she could not go to the loo after class, the request was made half an hour into the lesson, the last lesson of the day, and the buses do not wait if you are late for them. Again finding the second teacher the same day was not an option.
i was going to go in myself and my daughter wanted to accompany  me to reception to 'prove' she was not pulling a fast one.

Spurtle,
Believe me when i say i do not tolerate the direct swearing or bad language  by any child towards their teachers. i was brought up to respect my elders, others and their property, i hope i have passed that onto my daughter. what is said in the 'playground' maybe a different kettle of fish.

----------


## brokencross

Tugmistress,
Now I understand, I attended THS (a long time ago) and appreciate the bus situation.  Maybe if you meet with the rector and explain the whole situation, cooly and rationally he will relent.  I would hate to think that your daughter or any pupil would be put off schooling or branded trouble by an isolated incident which sounds so out of character.  Good Luck with your endeavours and tell your daughter to look after that ankle.

p.s. if all else fails I believe Voodoo dolls are quite effective...it does nothing to the intended target but at least it will make you feel better!!

----------


## Tugmistress

> Tugmistress,
> Now I understand, I attended THS (a long time ago) and appreciate the bus situation.  Maybe if you meet with the rector and explain the whole situation, cooly and rationally he will relent.  I would hate to think that your daughter or any pupil would be put off schooling or branded trouble by an isolated incident which sounds so out of character.  Good Luck with your endeavours and tell your daughter to look after that ankle.
> 
> p.s. if all else fails I believe Voodoo dolls are quite effective...it does nothing to the intended target but at least it will make you feel better!!


i will tell her thank you for yours, and everyones concern about her ankle  :Smile:  (still on crutches).

do you know a good supplier of voodoo dolls?  :Wink:

----------


## landmarker

I do not think teachers need to 'earn' respect from children. This should be given  as a matter of course.  They are there, after all to help the kids achieve. Swearing at teachers is totally non-acceptable. I'v ejust read your daughter did not, merely muttering  to herself under her breath, which is of course different.

My own default attitude if ever a dispute  had happened at school with my own children would be to support the teacher. Sadly, this is too seldom the case these days. You are obviously very annoyed at this situation and I cannot walk in your shoes. I hope it is soon resolved.

It is also regrettable that individuals are named on forums like this one. It tends to blow the matter up beyond all proportion and is most unfair to those who cannot  or will not defend their actions. Teachers have a tough job.
We all think our  own children  are ultra-special. To  a teacher they are just one more child amongst many. Children  who swear at them, or at themselves in frustration  probably stand out for all the wrong reasons.

----------


## Ricco

> I do not think teachers need to 'earn' respect from children. This should be given as a matter of course. They are there, after all to help the kids achieve. Swearing at teachers is totally non-acceptable. I'v ejust read your daughter did not, merely muttering to herself under her breath, which is of course different.
> 
> My own default attitude if ever a dispute had happened at school with my own children would be to support the teacher. Sadly, this is too seldom the case these days. You are obviously very annoyed at this situation and I cannot walk in your shoes. I hope it is soon resolved.
> 
> It is also regrettable that individuals are named on forums like this one. It tends to blow the matter up beyond all proportion and is most unfair to those who cannot or will not defend their actions. Teachers have a tough job.
> We all think our own children are ultra-special. To a teacher they are just one more child amongst many. Children who swear at them, or at themselves in frustration probably stand out for all the wrong reasons.


Well said, Landmarker.  Though it must be said that most children are very nice and some are exceptional.  It is only the occasional one that causes a problem and they are usually very sorry later.  It is a rare exceptional child that is all-out rude and confrontational.

----------


## Tugmistress

Hi Landmarker  :Smile: 
if i felt my daughter was in the wrong then things would be different. I know what she is like, and i know any child can be misleading to their parents, including my daughter. i like to think i have done enough cross examining to trip her up on any untruths that have been told, she is not a good liar and has tell tale signs. i cannot side with the teachers in this instant. 
i hope it is resolved soon too, we shall see what happens.

----------


## landmarker

> Hi Landmarker 
> if i felt my daughter was in the wrong then things would be different. I know what she is like, and i know any child can be misleading to their parents, including my daughter. i like to think i have done enough cross examining to trip her up on any untruths that have been told, she is not a good liar and has tell tale signs. i cannot side with the teachers in this instant. 
> i hope it is resolved soon too, we shall see what happens.


You've brought back some memories from many years ago when my daughter led us a merry dance for a few days and turned out to be telling lies. 
Good luck, and thanks for reminding me my kids were not perfect. She's been such  a star ever since I'd almost forgotten.

----------


## rockchick

> hello everybody,my ankle is very sore but i will live, chillie the rector of the school is now Dr Fiona Grant.
> 
> rockchick - i dont have a name for myself at the school and never had, i was a "little madam" in so many words when i was in high school in england, and, have been determind to keep my head down in school up here, when i first attended the school before moving to england i was never one to get on the wrong side of teachers and i suppose you could call me a bit of a "swat" now i am back i am still the same swat as i was before but i may talk a bitmore in lesson but i certainly dont cause trouble for myself with the teachers.
> 
> kaz xx


Hi kaz,

I don't believe I called you a "madam" or any such thing, and my comments were directed at your parent(s) and their relationship with the school/teachers, not at your behaviour or lack of it.  I'm glad to hear you're focussing on your studies and not making trouble.

Cheers
RC

----------


## theweemidget

being a school techer now is a hellish job cause teachers are under pressure and there is a thing about not letting pupils go to toilets. I see teachers getting made fun of because of their incompetence be it they are french or to old or whatever. I know afew teachers that treat pupils like they are nothing even making personal remarks about them a certain teacher made a remark about me once and i nearly turned round and gave her what for back. Teachers have no right to mention anything about pupils money or affairs in front of their class and a certain teacher has sat there and laughed at me infront of the whole class. People like that shouldn't be teachers.

someone told me at school you are treated like cows in a field they say when you go out and when you come in which is true actually.

Letting kids drink water in class is a verrrrry bad idea to cause well if you drink too much what are ya going to do wet yourself or hurt your bladder holding it in.

Your lass shouldn't be suspended for that jeez i know people who have done worse and still at school. Buses don't give you time at the school if a teacher keeps you back for about 2 mins you have missed your bus what can you do.

I find the best teachers are the ones that respect the kids and don't treat them like they are nothing. It is all down to a positive attitude all round and you gotta be willing to help the kids when they need it, you gotta show a decent side to you to but you gotta be fair and you must know the subject you are teaching.

The schools should get a decent toilet rule cause break time and lunchtimes are stupid, if you are at work you are able to go to the toilet regular and that meant you went less so why don't schools do the same well so long as you have permission.

That is a shame about ur daughter hope all is well

----------


## young_fishin_neep

> Hi kaz,
> 
> I don't believe I called you a "madam" or any such thing, and my comments were directed at your parent(s) and their relationship with the school/teachers, not at your behaviour or lack of it. I'm glad to hear you're focussing on your studies and not making trouble.
> 
> Cheers
> RC


rockchick - i wasnt implying you had called me a "madam" or anything else i was just letting you and the others know that i am not classed as a trouble maker at the school , or i didnt then and see to have now!!

kaz xx

----------


## Funky_Foal

what did your daughter do to get excluded?

----------


## dunderheed

i wasn't gonna comment on this thread , but decided i would.
a few wee points i've picked up on readingf the thread but correct me if i'm wrong.
tugmistress , surely on reflection you should not have taken your daughter into school before going to the hospital? maybe the person you talked to thought you would want to see the rector about the incedent (or perhaps the rector had said to whomever was in the office that if your daughter came in to send her to the office imediately) . 
i'm not saying what happened to you once you were at the rectors office was the way it should have been handled, but maybe its standard practice for the use of bad language to be dealt with this way (exclusion) . in which case if your daughter had said it loud enough for the teachers to hear in my opinion it was a justifiable suspension.
maybe instead of writing to the education authority you should sit back and relax and hope todeal with the situation when your daughter returns to school.
on the plus side (if there is one) your daughter is off school anyway with her injured ankle and that there isn't much schooling done at this time of the year anyway.
i hope that you get it al sorted out to everyones satisfaction and not to the detriment of your young'uns  education.

----------


## katarina

I once got the belt at school for nothing.  when I tried to ask what I'd done, I got a hundred lines as well.  If i had dared swear, even under my breath, I undoubtedly would have had another six of the best.  that same teacher refused to let a boy go to the toilet, and he pooed himself in class.  This was in high school.  You can imagine the embarrassment and teasing he suffered.  no parents ever complained and bad teachers were accepted as par for the course.
Some teachers were liked, some feared and some down right hated, but all were respected.
Please don't think I'm unsympathetic, far from it, I'm just saying that back then teachers had the last say, and unfair though many of them were at times, they did have control over their classes.  
I'm sorry about your daughter, but if they had let her off, then the next child would think they had a right to swear as well, say a quick, sorry, whether it was meant or not, and get off. If there is a zero swearing policy it has to be upheld, and exclusion is the only tool teachers are allowed to use
Having said that, if I was the headteacher, and she was a first time offender, I think I would have accepted the appology, heard her side, and let her off with a stern warning.
I hope you get it sorted out.

----------


## Tugmistress

> what did your daughter do to get excluded?


The reason quoted in the letter was swearing at two teachers.
When i asked her to write down exactly what happened, she had sworn under her breath as she walked away from an inflamatory situation (which is what i have always told her to do).
even if she had stood in class and been abusive, i would still expect to let her have her say under no duress (ie when in pain and on the way to hospital) rather than an outright suspension with opportunity for defense. i am also disgusted that an adult can't make a civil reply to a child when an apology is freely offered.

----------


## Tugmistress

> i wasn't gonna comment on this thread , but decided i would.
> a few wee points i've picked up on readingf the thread but correct me if i'm wrong.
> tugmistress , surely on reflection you should not have taken your daughter into school before going to the hospital? maybe the person you talked to thought you would want to see the rector about the incedent (or perhaps the rector had said to whomever was in the office that if your daughter came in to send her to the office imediately) . 
> i'm not saying what happened to you once you were at the rectors office was the way it should have been handled, but maybe its standard practice for the use of bad language to be dealt with this way (exclusion) . in which case if your daughter had said it loud enough for the teachers to hear in my opinion it was a justifiable suspension.
> maybe instead of writing to the education authority you should sit back and relax and hope todeal with the situation when your daughter returns to school.
> on the plus side (if there is one) your daughter is off school anyway with her injured ankle and that there isn't much schooling done at this time of the year anyway.
> i hope that you get it al sorted out to everyones satisfaction and not to the detriment of your young'uns  education.


with hindsight, i wish i had never bothered now. I did what it hought was right at the time. I went to inform the reception that my daughter would not be in because .... etc. to me this was just manners and the correct thing to do. a quick 2 minute call into reception was neither here nor there in the great scheme of time in getting over to wick.
maybe the receptionist had been told to send her straight to the rectors office, but surely, (we come to common sense again  :: ) that common sense would dictate something along the lines of 'ok no problem but when you are sorted at the hospital would you get in touch we need to see you about an incident yesterday'?
from what i have read of the educational bumf i have rooted out, an exclusion is a last resort, i would have thought a weeks detention better, but tht is just my personal opinion).
as you say, on the plus side i know she would have been off school anyway due to her injury, and yes i agree that there is not much schooling done this early ion the year, but it is still important that she does not fall behind.

----------


## Tugmistress

> I once got the belt at school for nothing.  when I tried to ask what I'd done, I got a hundred lines as well.  If i had dared swear, even under my breath, I undoubtedly would have had another six of the best.  that same teacher refused to let a boy go to the toilet, and he pooed himself in class.  This was in high school.  You can imagine the embarrassment and teasing he suffered.  no parents ever complained and bad teachers were accepted as par for the course.
> Some teachers were liked, some feared and some down right hated, but all were respected.
> Please don't think I'm unsympathetic, far from it, I'm just saying that back then teachers had the last say, and unfair though many of them were at times, they did have control over their classes.  
> I'm sorry about your daughter, but if they had let her off, then the next child would think they had a right to swear as well, say a quick, sorry, whether it was meant or not, and get off. If there is a zero swearing policy it has to be upheld, and exclusion is the only tool teachers are allowed to use
> Having said that, if I was the headteacher, and she was a first time offender, I think I would have accepted the appology, heard her side, and let her off with a stern warning.
> I hope you get it sorted out.


i must say that i must have gone to school in roughly the same era as you  :Smile: 
i would have expected a detention for this, as exclusion seems a bit harsh, i would expect exclusion for things such as vandalism, violence etc.

maybe i am just too old to understand school nowadays. it's a shame the teachers have had so many powers removed from them.

----------


## squidge

If exclusion is used for swearing - what do they do when someone does something worse?

----------


## Elenna

> If exclusion is used for swearing - what do they do when someone does something worse?


That was the point I was trying to make previously. Exclusion should be a "last resort" for repeat offences, or for those too serious to be addressed by other means. Having a child out of the school, even for a limited period, is pretty much the ultimate consequence they can use...and it should be kept Ultimate, otherwise it loses its status as The most seriousness punishment available.

From a schools standpoint, swearing is certainly a discipline problem, but surely it is fairly minor in relation to other, far worse things?

Elenna

----------


## KitKat

At the risk of getting flamed and as a parent myself, I'm going to buy into this argument. Sorry tugmistress I think you are wrong.
Teachers are actually told not to let pupils out to toilet from class unless they really feel to not do so would cause genuine distress. This is to prevent smoking, drug taking, vandalism etc. Why did your daughter need to go so urgently? If she went at lunch break she shouldn't need to go again unless she had an illness/bladder problem in which case you could have sent her in with a note. 
She didn't get her own way so she swore at a teacher. Doesn't matter what the frustration is swearing isn't acceptable. If someone came into your place of work and swore at you would that be acceptable?  So is it really ok for an adult to have to take it from a teenager? Maybe you reckon that's what teachers get paid the big bucks for, but what about the office staff, the canteen staff, the auxilliaries, the cleaners, all low paid and all having to take abuse from ill mannered children. The head teacher is absolutely right to set a standard for the school that swearing is unacceptable in ANY situation. Lots of businesses do that now... they have signs up saying abuse will not be tolerated and your daughter will one day enter that real world where swearing under her breath or out loud could get her the sack, or banned from shop premises.etc The school was giving her a lesson for life. After all the exclusion won't kill her but it might give her time to think about her behaviour.
As for the teacher who wouldn't accept her apology... well maybe she had behaved badly with that teacher before, or maybe the teacher took the view that saying you are sorry is easy but showing you are sorry is a different thing. An apology doesn't have to be accepted if you feel its not sincerely given or that someone is just trying to get themselves out of trouble. How many judges let people off just because the perpetrator is sorry? Another lesson for life here I think.
Sorry tugmistress, I usually enjoy your posts. You have such an interest in the environment around you and you bring some real knowledge to this forum, which I'm pretty sure you also pass on to your daughter. However on this occasion what you have passed on to your daughter is
1) teachers' feelings don't count. Its ok to swear at them
2) If you do wrong a quick apology is all that is needed
3) school discipline is for others but not for her
4) she is a victim and life owes her.

----------


## footie chick

I'm sorry but isn't denying anyone from answering a call of nature breaching their human rights {these are the human rights that everyone harps on about at the slightest thing!}  Surely if she was going to partake in drugs/smoking etc she would be doing it a break time along with everyone else{where are the teachers then?  thats right having their fag break!}

----------


## KitKat

Well Footie Chick, I have friends who work in call centres and factories who don't get to go to the toilet when they want. They can only go in their official tea breaks which are timed. Life gets a lot harder post school you know.

And as far as I know, no-one can smoke in Council Buildings any more so the few teachers who do (all adults over 16 I would expect!) would do that off premises.

----------


## young_fishin_neep

> And as far as I know, no-one can smoke in Council Buildings any more so the few teachers who do (all adults over 16 I would expect!) would do that off premises.


we do have a few teahcers that smoke and yes most do go off the premises when they have thier free time! but there is one teacher who i will not say the name of that we know goes into his/her store cupboard and "has a quickie" he has been known to do this while he jas a class aswell!!

kaz xx

----------


## young_fishin_neep

> At the risk of getting flamed and as a parent myself, I'm going to buy into this argument. Sorry tugmistress I think you are wrong.
> Teachers are actually told not to let pupils out to toilet from class unless they really feel to not do so would cause genuine distress. This is to prevent smoking, drug taking, vandalism etc. Why did your daughter need to go so urgently? If she went at lunch break she shouldn't need to go again unless she had an illness/bladder problem in which case you could have sent her in with a note. 
> She didn't get her own way so she swore at a teacher. Doesn't matter what the frustration is swearing isn't acceptable. If someone came into your place of work and swore at you would that be acceptable? So is it really ok for an adult to have to take it from a teenager? Maybe you reckon that's what teachers get paid the big bucks for, but what about the office staff, the canteen staff, the auxilliaries, the cleaners, all low paid and all having to take abuse from ill mannered children. The head teacher is absolutely right to set a standard for the school that swearing is unacceptable in ANY situation. Lots of businesses do that now... they have signs up saying abuse will not be tolerated and your daughter will one day enter that real world where swearing under her breath or out loud could get her the sack, or banned from shop premises.etc The school was giving her a lesson for life. After all the exclusion won't kill her but it might give her time to think about her behaviour.
> As for the teacher who wouldn't accept her apology... well maybe she had behaved badly with that teacher before, or maybe the teacher took the view that saying you are sorry is easy but showing you are sorry is a different thing. An apology doesn't have to be accepted if you feel its not sincerely given or that someone is just trying to get themselves out of trouble. How many judges let people off just because the perpetrator is sorry? Another lesson for life here I think.
> Sorry tugmistress, I usually enjoy your posts. You have such an interest in the environment around you and you bring some real knowledge to this forum, which I'm pretty sure you also pass on to your daughter. However on this occasion what you have passed on to your daughter is
> 1) teachers' feelings don't count. Its ok to swear at them
> 2) If you do wrong a quick apology is all that is needed
> 3) school discipline is for others but not for her
> 4) she is a victim and life owes her.


firstly - it had been around an hour and a half since lunchtime,and yes i did go to the loo as soon as the break began as i needed the toilet, but, i also had drank a fair bit during lunchtime as i dont usualy drink alot and that day i happend to need a drink! aslo (getting into scientific stuff hear) even by not drinking and just eating you may need the toilet as all food has moisture in it!!

secondly- just because i wasnt aloud to go to the toilet or "get my own way" as you put it didnt mean i swore at the teacher, it was simply out of frustration for being desperate for the loo, which cannot be helped, i admitt i didnt think before i spoke if i had maybe it wouldnt have come out the way it did!

thirdly- i have a job and i know its not good to swear, i know i would imeadietly get the sack if i swore at any of the cutsomers if they had annoyed me, i just smile and take it in! this also means i dont tend to swear alot!

fourthly- i have never even spoke to the teacher who wouldnt accept my apology, i have never been in her class or even been in trouble in the department to have to go and speak to her!

fithly- i DO NOT think its ok to swear at techers
         i DO NOT think a quick apology is all that is needed i agree i should     have been punished
         i think the school should punish ANYBODY who has done worng aslong as it is the right punishment
         i DO NOT think i am a victim, i admitted i was in the wrong and on many occasions

kaz xx

----------


## footie chick

> Well Footie Chick, I have friends who work in call centres and factories who don't get to go to the toilet when they want. They can only go in their official tea breaks which are timed. Life gets a lot harder post school you know


I know it has been several years since  I left school!!!!   If the same pupil was in primary one would she have been refused the plea to go to the toilet? I think not.   ::

----------


## Tugmistress

KitKat,
i think my daughter has summed up quite well in response to you. 
if i gave the impression to you that i have taught her no morals or manners then i apologise, maybe i was brought up wrong.
what i am more than a bit miffed at is the initial contact with the school on tuesday morning by being ushered around before my wits returned after such a rude greeting, and the fact that my daughter had no chance to say anything in her defense.
if she has done wrong i would expect her to be punished, but i would also expect a little more unbiasness (is that a word?) from teachers.
As i said before, i would have thought a week detention would have sufficed, as there are far worse things such as violence, vandalism etc.

----------


## footie chick

Makes you wonder what punishment they would hand out to someone who carried out a worse crime than asked to go to the toilet!!!!!

----------


## pultneytooner

> At the risk of getting flamed and as a parent myself, I'm going to buy into this argument. Sorry tugmistress I think you are wrong.
> Teachers are actually told not to let pupils out to toilet from class unless they really feel to not do so would cause genuine distress. This is to prevent smoking, drug taking, vandalism etc. Why did your daughter need to go so urgently? If she went at lunch break she shouldn't need to go again unless she had an illness/bladder problem in which case you could have sent her in with a note. 
> She didn't get her own way so she swore at a teacher. Doesn't matter what the frustration is swearing isn't acceptable. If someone came into your place of work and swore at you would that be acceptable?  So is it really ok for an adult to have to take it from a teenager? Maybe you reckon that's what teachers get paid the big bucks for, but what about the office staff, the canteen staff, the auxilliaries, the cleaners, all low paid and all having to take abuse from ill mannered children. The head teacher is absolutely right to set a standard for the school that swearing is unacceptable in ANY situation. Lots of businesses do that now... they have signs up saying abuse will not be tolerated and your daughter will one day enter that real world where swearing under her breath or out loud could get her the sack, or banned from shop premises.etc The school was giving her a lesson for life. After all the exclusion won't kill her but it might give her time to think about her behaviour.
> As for the teacher who wouldn't accept her apology... well maybe she had behaved badly with that teacher before, or maybe the teacher took the view that saying you are sorry is easy but showing you are sorry is a different thing. An apology doesn't have to be accepted if you feel its not sincerely given or that someone is just trying to get themselves out of trouble. How many judges let people off just because the perpetrator is sorry? Another lesson for life here I think.
> Sorry tugmistress, I usually enjoy your posts. You have such an interest in the environment around you and you bring some real knowledge to this forum, which I'm pretty sure you also pass on to your daughter. However on this occasion what you have passed on to your daughter is
> 1) teachers' feelings don't count. Its ok to swear at them
> 2) If you do wrong a quick apology is all that is needed
> 3) school discipline is for others but not for her
> 4) she is a victim and life owes her.


Teachers should have absolutely no authority to stop people using the toilet and if they do then that is absolutely absurd.
If a child needs to go to the toilet then they should have to be allowed.
What happened if the child had an accident which would cause untold embarrassment and probably bullying for the rest of their schooldays.
As for the swearing, unfortunately it slipped out albeit under her breath but hey she was probably miffed and quite rightly so that she wasn't allowed to go to the toilet.
Yes it was wrong to swear at a teacher but it is equally wrong to try and stop someones natural bodily functions, see how you would like someone doing that to you, power tripping gits.
Also teachers have no right to treat parents with the contempt it seems that tugmisstress received, she deserved some respect.
Teachers deserve respect, yes, but when they don't give that to parents then that's where the respect stops.

----------


## Fluff

now i am not saying that this was the case in which we are talking about, but to  all those of you saying a teacher should never be allowed to stop a child going to the loo, itake it you dont realise that in half the cases, the child in question wants to go to get out of class/to go for a smoke/to disrupt the class.
these all happend when i was at school and i left in 2001.
i should highly dought it has changed much since then!
as is normally the case in life, it is the few who do it to disrupt who cause the problems for the genuine ones!

----------


## elaine

Yup  that is harsh  exclusion for swearing at a teacher  and thank god  it should be harsh!  There are so few sanctions now that make any difference so at least the teachers are getting supported on this.  The school cannot be seen to condone this kind of thing  what kind of message does that put out?
I would be furious if a kid swore at me and got a lousy detention!!  And ok, the teacher probably shouldve accepted the apology (genuine or not) but hey, they are human too and he/she probably had not cooled down yet either.  Even so, the apology is just common courtesy and should not get her out of the punishment  she admitted what she did, now she should accept the consequences of it (its a fair cop and all that).  If the kids thought a simple apology would get them out of the consequences, all hell would break loose!
It is a horrible, nasty feeling to have to deal with confrontation at your work  we should not have to put up with it!  We all know that swearing is part and parcel of most folks vocabulary (mine included!) but the school has a duty to teach the kids about when it is inappropriate  theres a time and place etc and this occasion was highly inappropriate and she has hopefully learnt that lesson  whether she or mum think thats fair or not!

On the toilet thing, in the last 2 schools Ive worked in we were not allowed to let them out unless they had a medical problem or it was an EMERGENCY (you can tell these things!!  most of the time!  One time, I wouldnt let a kid out to the loo, he kept pestering and pestering then he puked in my bin!  Ooops!  ah well, nobodys perfect!!  He never let me live it down either!)  They get 2 breaks in the day  they go then, whats the prob?  You dont want to get labelled an easy touch (pester her enough and shell always let us go, type thing).  They get up to all sorts of nonsense when allowed to roam the school during class time, they go the long way round to the toilet, they arrange to meet up with pals from other classes via mobiles, they pen the walls, they set off the fire alarm, have a fly fag, blah blah blah the list goes on!  And then the teacher who let them out is partly to blame.  Its just simply not worth the bother.  Oh, and I dont mean to tar all the kids with the same brush but there are always those that will take advantage  even if it is a small minority.

Sorry if I get booed for this but I probably wouldnt have let her out either (big baddy!)
I cant be doing with kids nip, nip, nipping at my head about the toilet every two seconds when Im in the middle of something in class (boo, hiss).  They know the rules and theyre old enough to cross their legs and get on with it.  Btw Im not a complete witch, if its genuine and I see them squirming about in their chair, Ill let them go at the end of the lesson (I aint dealing with pee!) but if theyre insolent in any way or persist on interrupting me then no way, Jose  those ones can go in their own time, not mine (did she politely ask or did she demand?  I guess well never know..)

----------


## connieb19

I have to say, I totally agree with everything Elaine says..

----------


## Rheghead

> If exclusion is used for swearing - what do they do when someone does something worse?


Answer: Exclusion and or the Police.

What is worse for a teacher to deal with other than swearing that is not a police matter?  Pupils should be shown that swearing is not acceptable behavior.  If they are allowed to swear then they will carry it on to their work place, provided that they can get passed the interview without dropping an expletive.  Imagine a world where the next generation of doctors came out with a swear word when you go for a checkup or a salesman sees his firm's profits dropping because his customers can't stand the language.

An apology is not good enough for redemption of sin.  Pupils should learn that they should think about the consequences of their actions _before_ they do it, not after the apology.  Thinking ahead is learned behavior afterall, an animalistic behavior trait that their under developed frontal lobes can understand...

----------


## pultneytooner

> Yup  that is harsh  exclusion for swearing at a teacher  and thank god  it should be harsh!  There are so few sanctions now that make any difference so at least the teachers are getting supported on this.  The school cannot be seen to condone this kind of thing  what kind of message does that put out?
> I would be furious if a kid swore at me and got a lousy detention!!  And ok, the teacher probably shouldve accepted the apology (genuine or not) but hey, they are human too and he/she probably had not cooled down yet either.  Even so, the apology is just common courtesy and should not get her out of the punishment  she admitted what she did, now she should accept the consequences of it (its a fair cop and all that).  If the kids thought a simple apology would get them out of the consequences, all hell would break loose!
> It is a horrible, nasty feeling to have to deal with confrontation at your work  we should not have to put up with it!  We all know that swearing is part and parcel of most folks vocabulary (mine included!) but the school has a duty to teach the kids about when it is inappropriate  theres a time and place etc and this occasion was highly inappropriate and she has hopefully learnt that lesson  whether she or mum think thats fair or not!
> 
> On the toilet thing, in the last 2 schools Ive worked in we were not allowed to let them out unless they had a medical problem or it was an EMERGENCY (you can tell these things!!  most of the time!  One time, I wouldnt let a kid out to the loo, he kept pestering and pestering then he puked in my bin!  Ooops!  ah well, nobodys perfect!!  He never let me live it down either!)  They get 2 breaks in the day  they go then, whats the prob?  You dont want to get labelled an easy touch (pester her enough and shell always let us go, type thing).  They get up to all sorts of nonsense when allowed to roam the school during class time, they go the long way round to the toilet, they arrange to meet up with pals from other classes via mobiles, they pen the walls, they set off the fire alarm, have a fly fag, blah blah blah the list goes on!  And then the teacher who let them out is partly to blame.  Its just simply not worth the bother.  Oh, and I dont mean to tar all the kids with the same brush but there are always those that will take advantage  even if it is a small minority.
> 
> Sorry if I get booed for this but I probably wouldnt have let her out either (big baddy!)
> I cant be doing with kids nip, nip, nipping at my head about the toilet every two seconds when Im in the middle of something in class (boo, hiss).  They know the rules and theyre old enough to cross their legs and get on with it.  Btw Im not a complete witch, if its genuine and I see them squirming about in their chair, Ill let them go at the end of the lesson (I aint dealing with pee!) but if theyre insolent in any way or persist on interrupting me then no way, Jose  those ones can go in their own time, not mine (did she politely ask or did she demand?  I guess well never know..)


And you time your toilet breaks to perfection, it's a disgrace no matter how you dress it up.

----------


## elaine

Yes, I can't leave class either to go pee (more's the pity!) just in case I might set the fire alarm off (resist the urge, resist the urge!!)

Come off it - a disgrace?  So they have to hold it in for half an hour - big whoopee, just think of it as another "life skill" - one I was grateful for when stuck in a snow drift traffic jam a few years back for SIX hours - was in excruciating pain but the car remained dry - RESULT!

----------


## young_fishin_neep

> Yes, I can't leave class either to go pee (more's the pity!) just in case I might set the fire alarm off (resist the urge, resist the urge!!)
> 
> Come off it - a disgrace? So they have to hold it in for half an hour - big whoopee, just think of it as another "life skill" - one I was grateful for when stuck in a snow drift traffic jam a few years back for SIX hours - was in excruciating pain but the car remained dry - RESULT!


i wish oit was only half an hour i can tell you that, i have had many times having to hold my pee, which in return i have noticed that i now need to go to the toilet more often than before, but i would have been willing to hold it in but, as i i said before i would havenot been able to go to the loo till i got home as the buses dont wait, which ment i would have haad to hold it in for an hour and a half, maybe YOU can hold you're wee for a alonger period of time than me, not everybody is the same.

people [even children in school] have rights, and to my knowlegde there is no law that states a child that needs the toilet can be stopped from going, leading to a large amount of embaressment and bullying for the rest of thier school day!

kaz

----------


## pultneytooner

> Yes, I can't leave class either to go pee (more's the pity!) just in case I might set the fire alarm off (resist the urge, resist the urge!!)
> 
> Come off it - a disgrace?  So they have to hold it in for half an hour - big whoopee, just think of it as another "life skill" - one I was grateful for when stuck in a snow drift traffic jam a few years back for SIX hours - was in excruciating pain but the car remained dry - RESULT!


 Well done to you, you are obviously a very talented lady.
Hold your pee in and damage your bladder, well it's your bladder do with it as you wish but don't force those circumstances on kids.
The supposition is all kids wanting to go to the toilet are going to have a smoke or blah, blah, blah the list goes on, all kids must suffer for the minority?
Smart thinking.

----------


## SandTiger

Hi KitKat - Just out of interest, but what exactly do you feel that an exclusion achieves for what is after all widely viewed as a relatively minor matter compared to other things that occur in our schools?

Surely there are other more positive options given the circumstances as laid out and also part of policy guidelines; Exclusion should not be used if alternative solutions are available, for example:Using a restorative justice      process, which allows the pupil to put right any harm doneMediation - a trained      person helps sort out any conflict between your child and others or a      teacherInternal exclusion (also      known as internal seclusion) to somewhere else within the school with      appropriate support, or moving to another class on a temporary basis.      Internal exclusion may continue during break periodsWould these options not be more sensible and actually be addressing the issues and give a pupil a more positive attitude towards schooling? In my day exclusion was seen as a 'result' by many kids - But it wasn't particularly effective or constructive in the long term - Hey, I can play up and I'll get a few days off - Seems a bit like the school throwing the towel in or the toys out the pram, no?

----------


## elaine

> The supposition is all kids wanting to go to the toilet are going to have a smoke or blah, blah, blah the list goes on, all kids must suffer for the minority?
> Smart thinking.


No, not at all, the kids that I know and trust get permission (if it's urgent).  I try to be as fair as possible.  I can't speak for all teachers, I'm just telling you of my experiences and showing it from the schools point of view.  
If you disagree, that's fine but what's the alternative?
Let every Tom, Dick and Harry roam around the school during class time?
It's a difficult dilemma and I'm not sure there is an answer that will please everyone.  Of course, I can see it from both angles but at the end of the day it is up to individual teacher to make the decision.  If they don't want to take the risk of letting someone out of class then that is their call and surely that has to be respected.

----------


## SandTiger

> Come off it - a disgrace?  So they have to hold it in for half an hour - big whoopee, just think of it as another "life skill" - one I was grateful for when stuck in a snow drift traffic jam a few years back for SIX hours - was in excruciating pain but the car remained dry - RESULT!


yerrrr... But she wasn't stuck in a snow drift was she? - She was sat in a class room!

God help all our children if the likes of you are in charge of them - going by the compassionate tone of your posts.  :: 

Have you considered a career move to teaching in HMP Barlinnie?

 ::

----------


## elaine

> yerrrr... But she wasn't stuck in a snow drift was she? - She was sat in a class room!
> 
> God help all our children if the likes of you are in charge of them - going by the compassionate tone of your posts. 
> 
> Have you considered a career move to teaching in HMP Barlinnie?



Perhaps you should consider a career move to teaching - to experience the reality of it all?

----------


## pultneytooner

> I would be furious if a kid swore at me and got a lousy detention!! And ok, the teacher probably shouldve accepted the apology (genuine or not) but hey, they are human too and he/she probably had not cooled down yet either. Even so, the apology is just common courtesy and should not get her out of the punishment  she admitted what she did, now she should accept the consequences of it (its a fair cop and all that). If the kids thought a simple apology would get them out of the consequences, all hell would break loose!


Yes and it seems like the mother, (tugmisstress) and her daughter were quite accepting of the need for punishment, just not to be treated with disrespect by the school staff.

----------


## changilass

> No, not at all, the kids that I know and trust get permission (if it's urgent). I try to be as fair as possible. I can't speak for all teachers, I'm just telling you of my experiences and showing it from the schools point of view. 
> If you disagree, that's fine but what's the alternative?
> Let every Tom, Dick and Harry roam around the school during class time?
> It's a difficult dilemma and I'm not sure there is an answer that will please everyone. Of course, I can see it from both angles but at the end of the day it is up to individual teacher to make the decision. If they don't want to take the risk of letting someone out of class then that is their call and surely that has to be respected.


This smacks of favouritism, I would simply leave the room if I was in need and refused and deal with the consequences later rather than spend the rest of my schooldays being ridiculed for not being allowed to answer the call of nature

----------


## SandTiger

> Perhaps you should consider a career move to teaching - to experience the reality of it all?


Seeing the end result of bad teaching practices has been enough but thank you.

----------


## pultneytooner

> This smacks of favouritism, I would simply leave the room if I was in need and refused and deal with the consequences later rather than spend the rest of my schooldays being ridiculed for not being allowed to answer the call of nature


Absolutely right!

----------


## elaine

Hey, I'm quite happy to be the fall guy for this but can I just say that this dilema rarely occurs as the majority of kids know and understand the school rules and manage to live by them.  
I would also like to point out that the majority of kids are trustworthy but are let down by a minority of trouble-makers - I suggest that they are the ones to blame for the strict regulation of movement around schools during classtime rather than the staff? Just my opinion...

----------


## SandTiger

Well since you have chosen to set yourself up for the _fall guy_ then tell me...

Do you think that all children deserve an education or should we just select the ones that are easy to deal with and wash our hands of those that are more challenging?

As a teacher, whose duty is to have the best interests of all children at heart, do you not feel that there could have been positive alternatives to exclusion implemented that would have served a better outcome for *all* involved?

Just a thought.

----------


## elaine

> Do you think that all children deserve an education or should we just select the ones that are easy to deal with and wash our hands of those that are more challenging?
> 
> As a teacher, whose duty is to have the best interests of all children at heart, do you not feel that there could have been positive alternatives to exclusion implemented that would have served a better outcome for *all* involved?
> 
> Just a thought.


Never at any minute did I say I was selecting "easy to deal with pupils" for an education compared with more challenging ones.  This whole debate has been about whether or not to let them out of class for the toilet NOT whether they deserve an education or not. 
I bust a gut for ALL of my kids to make sure they are making the most of their potential and so do my friends and colleagues.  But that is a whole different topic from the toilet one!

----------


## Ricco

> we do have a few teahcers that smoke and yes most do go off the premises when they have thier free time! but there is one teacher who i will not say the name of that we know goes into his/her store cupboard and "has a quickie" he has been known to do this while he jas a class aswell!!
> 
> kaz xx


That is disgusting and immoral.  Someone should slip an anonymous note to the Head / Rector - typed, of course, so that the source cannot be identified.  Most of our staff have 'seen the light' and have given up.

----------


## jay

I have held my tongue and not got involved in this thread, and I will still not comment on the original topic, however I do think that this thread is now only serving to show the general disrespect that teachers now have to put up with - the particular teachers in question have no right of reply here and without both sides of the story no rational conclusion can be reached

----------


## spurtle

The last posts also show that perhaps it's not the delinquent children but the delinquent parents who are the problem.The "Couldn't have been my child", "My child's being picked on by teachers" etc type of nonsense and all this pc bull.I didn't have to swear at teachers no matter what had happened.Nor did a teacher stop anyone from going to the loo if they felt they had to.Do you really think that the teacher refused your child to go was doing it out of spite or dislike of your daughter.Any parent should take a step back and look at the facts.
I think we're getting a bit OTT on the damage to the bladder rubbish aswell.

----------


## pultneytooner

> The last posts also show that perhaps it's not the delinquent children but the delinquent parents who are the problem.The "Couldn't have been my child", "My child's being picked on by teachers" etc type of nonsense and all this pc bull.I didn't have to swear at teachers no matter what had happened.Nor did a teacher stop anyone from going to the loo if they felt they had to.Do you really think that the teacher refused your child to go was doing it out of spite or dislike of your daughter.Any parent should take a step back and look at the facts.
> I think we're getting a bit OTT on the damage to the bladder rubbish aswell.


 Forced retention of bodily waste, Mm, where to start.
How about**:
overflow incontinence, urinary tract infection, constipation, stool impaction, over-extention of the bladder muscles, uremic poisoning, anxiety, concentrating on the pain of a full bladder which is detrimental to learning?
No problems there then?
The external control of another persons bodily functions is seen as a violation of human rights in the adult world.
This is a degrading practice which demeans and de-humanizes children i.m.h.o.

----------


## Tugmistress

> Teachers should have absolutely no authority to stop people using the toilet and if they do then that is absolutely absurd.
> If a child needs to go to the toilet then they should have to be allowed.
> What happened if the child had an accident which would cause untold embarrassment and probably bullying for the rest of their schooldays.
> As for the swearing, unfortunately it slipped out albeit under her breath but hey she was probably miffed and quite rightly so that she wasn't allowed to go to the toilet.
> Yes it was wrong to swear at a teacher but it is equally wrong to try and stop someones natural bodily functions, see how you would like someone doing that to you, power tripping gits.
> Also teachers have no right to treat parents with the contempt it seems that tugmisstress received, she deserved some respect.
> Teachers deserve respect, yes, but when they don't give that to parents then that's where the respect stops.


Thank you 
at least this post has proved someone has actually understood what i was getting at.
as for whoever thinks i was saying 'no not my child' or whatever, no child is an angel all their days, including mine. she has written on here that she admits she was in the wrong for swearing and i do not dispute that fact.
what was wrong however was the initial attitude as pointed out in the quote above.

----------


## Rheghead

> Forced retention of bodily waste, Mm, where to start.
> How about**:
> overflow incontinence, urinary tract infection, constipation, stool impaction, over-extention of the bladder muscles, uremic poisoning, anxiety, concentrating on the pain of a full bladder which is detrimental to learning?
> No problems there then?
> The external control of another persons bodily functions is seen as a violation of human rights in the adult world.
> This is a degrading practice which demeans and de-humanizes children i.m.h.o.


On yer high horse?  Give over!

We are talking about discipline in school, not human rights. 
Try to put things into perspective! ::

----------


## pultneytooner

> On yer high horse?  Give over!
> 
> We are talking about discipline in school, not human rights. 
> Try to put things into perspective!


And my posts would anger you exactly why? ' :: '
actually if you bothered to read the original post by tugmisstress you would realize that firstly her daughter was denied access to a toilet then tugmisstress was treated with disrespect by some of the staff.
Maybe some teachers should use that so-called discipline of yours when dealing with parents.
This is a forum and if I wish to 'get on my high horse', within the rules, I will and
whether you like it or not is of absolutely no consequence to me.

----------


## Rheghead

> And my posts would anger you exactly why? ''.


You drew an analogy between human rights abuses from around the world with denying a child to go to the toilet.  I know what you were trying to do but I find it reprehensible that my better half is being compared to a cruel guard in Abu graibh or in an Iranian political prison.  And yes, she agrees that kids should be stopped from going to the toilet during class.  A kid will only have to hold it in for 3/4 hour at the most, hardly a violation of a human right is it?  When I was at school, I held it in, as lots of other kids did, big deal it didn't cause us any harm, our human rights weren't being violated either.  We were being taught a lesson in time management!

----------


## changilass

> On yer high horse? Give over!
> 
> We are talking about discipline in school, not human rights. 
> Try to put things into perspective!


 
This thread is about human rights, not just dicipline in school.

It started with the human rights of a young person needing to relieve herself.

It then went onto the human rights of teachers not to be sworn at.

Then onto the young persons right to be heard when attempting to appologise. 

The mothers right to be treated with respect. 

Then back to the young persons right to get hospital treatment rather than, having to wander round the school whilst things were sorted out.

Finally to the childs right to an education, rather than being expelled when a lesser form of punishment might have been more appropriate.

----------


## pultneytooner

> You drew an analogy between human rights abuses from around the world with denying a child to go to the toilet.  I know what you were trying to do but I find it reprehensible that my better half is being compared to a cruel guard in Abu graibh or in an Iranian political prison.  And yes, she agrees that kids should be stopped from going to the toilet during class.  A kid will only have to hold it in for 3/4 hour at the most, hardly a violation of a human right is it?  When I was at school, I held it in, as lots of other kids did, big deal it didn't cause us any harm, our human rights weren't being violated either.  We were being taught a lesson in time management!


My god man, now you have gone off on a tangent.
Never once did I compare this situation to the human rights of prisoners, political or not, you made the analogy not I, maybe you should try some perspective yourself.
Human rights covers a very broad spectrum and you just picked the most condemnable version of abuse you could find to demonize my point of view.

----------


## Rheghead

> This thread is about human rights, not just dicipline in school.
> 
> It started with the human rights of a young person needing to relieve herself.
> 
> It then went onto the human rights of teachers not to be sworn at.
> 
> Then onto the young persons right to be heard when attempting to appologise. 
> 
> The mothers right to be treated with respect. 
> ...


No.  With human rights there has to be an equal measure of human responsibility. To me this thread is all about pupils taking responsibility for their actions which includes their bodily functions.  If they can't plan ahead or keep it in for 3/4 hour then they are clinically incontinent and they shouldn't be in a mainstream school.  As for exclusion for swearing, it is an appropriate form of punishment.

----------


## Rheghead

> My god man, now you have gone off on a tangent.
> Never once did I compare this situation to the human rights of prisoners, political or not, you made the analogy not I, maybe you should try some perspective yourself.
> Human rights covers a very broad spectrum and you just picked the most condemnable version of abuse you could find to demonize my point of view.


Do not back track, may I remind you




> The external control of another persons bodily functions is seen as a violation of human rights in the adult world.
> This is a degrading practice which demeans and de-humanizes children i.m.h.o..


The teachers involved are human rights abusers in your humble opinion.

----------


## pultneytooner

> Do not back track, may I remind you
> 
> 
> 
> The teachers involved are human rights abusers in your humble opinion.


I have never backtracked and I stand by what I typed 100%.
My post had absolutely nothing to do abu ghraib or political prisoners, you made that assumption.
The external control of another persons bodily functions is a violation of human rights so yes teachers albeit through guidelines are abusing kids human rights.
Nothing you can say will alter that fact.

----------


## Rheghead

> The external control of another persons bodily functions is a violation of human rights so yes teachers albeit through guidelines are abusing kids human rights.


Back track or no back track, you have labelled the hard working teachers involved and virtually every other professional teacher who needs to maintain class decorum as _human rights abusers_ with all the mental imagery that that term will conjure up.  

Nothing you might say will alter that fact...

----------


## pultneytooner

> Back track or no back track, you have labelled the hard working teachers involved and virtually every other professional teacher who needs to maintain class decorum as _human rights abusers_ with all the mental imagery that that term will conjure up.  
> 
> Nothing you might say will alter that fact...


I'm not resposible for anything your imagination conjures up.
As I have already stated, 'human rights covers a broad spectrum' and if you can't make a distinction between the different levels of abuse then that's a shame.

----------


## Rheghead

> if you can't make a distinction between the different levels of abuse then that's a shame.


It is a shame that you can't make a distinction between teachers who are doing their best to maintain class decorum and those people in the adult world that are genuinely abusing human rights.

----------


## pultneytooner

> It is a shame that you can't make a distinction between teachers who are doing their best to maintain class decorum and those people in the adult world that are genuinely abusing human rights.


 Oh but I can, it's your vivid imagination and mental imagery that makes it difficult for you to distinguish between a minor and a major abuse, not exactly a difficult concept to understand, is it?

----------


## brokencross

I really do take my hat off to these sanctimonious people who have clockwork, robotic bodies with total control of their bladder and bodily functions.

If they can honestly say that they have NEVER EVER been "caught short" and had to excuse themselves from the room for an urgent visit to the loo, I would be very surpised.  After all it is "the call of nature".  

Let me give you a couple of examples, televised snooker... players leave the hall for a toilet break, tennis players leave the court even at Wimbledon and of course Paula Radcliffe must have had one of the most public visits to the loo during the marathon

If you need the loo desperately it is virtually impossible to concentrate.......................................  ..................................................  ..................................................  ..................................................  ..................................................  ............................sorry for the pause, had to go to the smallest room in the house.

All this teacher bashing isn't achieving anything either.

----------


## Rheghead

> Oh but I can, it's your vivid imagination and mental imagery that makes it difficult for you to Correlate the difference between a minor and a major abuse.


Abusing human rights is major abuse.  Telling a kid to keep it in till breaktime is just a reasonable request to prevent class disruption.  This is where you find it difficult to correlate the difference.

----------


## young_fishin_neep

> Abusing human rights is major abuse.  Telling a kid to keep it in till breaktime is just a reasonable request to prevent class disruption.  This is where you find it difficult to correlate the difference.


yes but as it has been said many atimes, there was no break, it was an hour before the end of the school, and no i couldnt have gone then as the busses dont wait and i wasnt into walking home all because i missed the buss because a teacher wouldnt let me go to the loo.

this thread has turned into alot of insults after starting of very reasonable, and a sensible debate  :Frown: 
kaz xx

----------


## Rheghead

> yes but as it has been said many atimes, there was no break, it was an hour before the end of the school, and no i couldnt have gone then as the busses dont wait and i wasnt into walking home all because i missed the buss because a teacher wouldnt let me go to the loo.
> 
> kaz xx


It will be a good lesson for you in future then.  My point is immaterial of times to the end of lesson, bus times etc.  Teachers are not abusing your rights by denying you going to the toilet.  Clearly, at the time the teacher thought it inappropriate to let you go and you abused their judgement and their position of authority.  You got punished for that and I hope you will learn from that as well.  To me, the mere idea that you resorted to foul language in class tells me something of your attitude towards people in authority.  It won't be the end of the world if you missed the bus from school back to scrabster either.  It would take you half an hour to walk it if you shape yersel.  And an hour is not the end of the world to wait.  Get over it.

----------


## squidge

This whole thread has gone mad - you are all daft as brushes - human rights indeed and long term bladder problems from having to wait half an hour to go to the loo!!!!

For what its worth here is what i think. If a child asks to go to the toilet unless they are repeat offenders for sneaking off to the loo and disappearing they should be allowed. Children who are repeat offenders  should be  asked loudly as they entered  class have they been to the toilet? Do they need to go and someone should be available to escort them right there and then.  if they still needed to go to the toilet all the time - their parents shoudl be called in and it should be suggested that as little so and so has a bladder problem he should be referred to the hospital as a matter of urgency and the  potential consequences of not doing that should be explained. I would ask for a copy of the report from the specialist so we can help them as much as possible. When the report comes back showing threre is nothing wrong or if it the suggestion is refused i would never let the child go to the toilet again during a lesson.

The swearing is a difficult one but teachers should be able to deal with it without exclusion being the only option especailly where a child swears out of exasperation or frustration.  I have worked in a job where i have been regularly sworn at and whilst it isnt nice it is not the worst thign people do. i always think that excluding a child has to be a failure on the part of the school. They have detention and with a little imagination and some research other methods of discipline.  Where persistent swearing at teachers is an issue with  a pupil then exclusion should be considered  but only as a last resort.  

Tugmistress is  right to be aggrieved at her treatment at the school.  She should write and complain to the head teacher and the school but she should also support the school in disciplining her child and - sorry Kas sweetie - you should be disciplined at home for the behaviour you displayed in school.  Not beaten or anything  ::  but certainly have your priviledges withdrawn ( telly playstation etc etc) for as long as the exclusion lasts plus another week. That would get the message across that whilst the school's behaviour when dealing with her mother was not appropriate, tugmistress supports the teachers right to punish kas for her bad behaviour and if she gets into trouble at school she can expect to get into trouble at home.

----------


## young_fishin_neep

> Tugmistress is  right to be aggrieved at her treatment at the school.  She should write and complain to the head teacher and the school but she should also support the school in disciplining her child and - sorry Kas sweetie - you should be disciplined at home for the behaviour you displayed in school.  Not beaten or anything  but certainly have your priviledges withdrawn ( telly playstation etc etc) for as long as the exclusion lasts plus another week. That would get the message across that whilst the school's behaviour when dealing with her mother was not appropriate, tugmistress supports the teachers right to punish kas for her bad behaviour and if she gets into trouble at school she can expect to get into trouble at home.


i very weirdly find this very fair, i know i was in the wrong resorting to sweaering to let me go to the toilet, but on the opther hanbd i would rather do that than wet myself in class, if i was still refused i would have walkied out the class and wouyld probably still be in alot of trouble.

kaz xx

----------


## elaine

I agree with a lot of what you say squidge!  The escort idea is good in theory but it would be a full-time job for someone going round all the classes every period of the day - can't see the authority paying for that one!  

A lot has been said about how the punishment was too harsh and a more positive solution should be tried.  That's all well and good but I do think the school has a duty to set an example for the others by being swift and consistant with punishments.  
I, myself believe that if a school has a strong policy of rewarding positive behaviour this helps hugely towards good discipline all round.  But if it's a new heedy, these things take time to bed in!

To Kaz, it's really good that you're taking responsibility for your faux pas (if you do the crime, you gotta do the time!!) and it's a real shame that the guy didn't accept your apology (but you may find if you try again he will see that you're being sincere - maybe a letter will show that you've thought loads about it and don't intend to do it again!).  
We all get "the red mist" from time to time and I'm sure he'll forgive you if you now prove to him that this was indeed a one off - remember that you guys have to work together all year so it may as well be amicable!

Hope this all works out for the best and one thing's for sure you'll not forget the "loo-gate" scandal for a while and remember, say "fiddlesticks" next time!

----------


## Bobinovich

> This whole thread has gone mad - you are all daft as brushes - human rights indeed and long term bladder problems from having to wait half an hour to go to the loo!!!!
> 
> For what its worth here is what i think. If a child asks to go to the toilet unless they are repeat offenders for sneaking off to the loo and disappearing they should be allowed. Children who are repeat offenders should be asked loudly as they entered class have they been to the toilet? Do they need to go and someone should be available to escort them right there and then. if they still needed to go to the toilet all the time - their parents shoudl be called in and it should be suggested that as little so and so has a bladder problem he should be referred to the hospital as a matter of urgency and the potential consequences of not doing that should be explained. I would ask for a copy of the report from the specialist so we can help them as much as possible. When the report comes back showing threre is nothing wrong or if it the suggestion is refused i would never let the child go to the toilet again during a lesson.
> 
> The swearing is a difficult one but teachers should be able to deal with it without exclusion being the only option especailly where a child swears out of exasperation or frustration. I have worked in a job where i have been regularly sworn at and whilst it isnt nice it is not the worst thign people do. i always think that excluding a child has to be a failure on the part of the school. They have detention and with a little imagination and some research other methods of discipline. Where persistent swearing at teachers is an issue with a pupil then exclusion should be considered but only as a last resort. 
> 
> Tugmistress is right to be aggrieved at her treatment at the school. She should write and complain to the head teacher and the school but she should also support the school in disciplining her child and - sorry Kas sweetie - you should be disciplined at home for the behaviour you displayed in school. Not beaten or anything  but certainly have your priviledges withdrawn ( telly playstation etc etc) for as long as the exclusion lasts plus another week. That would get the message across that whilst the school's behaviour when dealing with her mother was not appropriate, tugmistress supports the teachers right to punish kas for her bad behaviour and if she gets into trouble at school she can expect to get into trouble at home.


 
Well thought out reply Squidge.  I agree that those 'caught short once in a blue moon' kids deserve the benefit for the doubt and should be allowed out.  I also agree with Changilass that if I were refused and genuinely couldn't hold on any longer then I would get out and face the consequences later.

Direct swearing at a teacher cannot be condoned.  Swearing under your breath too loud while in earshot is just tough luck - they've got to act on it as being aimed at them.  However unless the offender regularly breaks rules, a lesser punishment than exclusion should really have been considered.

I also agree that Tugmistress has every right to be annoyed and make a complaint in writing to the rector, and that Kas will have to learn a lesson from this experience.

----------


## celtic 302

i havent read all the posts on the thread, because to be honest the thought of readin loads of posts about a girl who hurt herself, and swearin at teachers and all that doesnt particularlly interest me, whoever i do hope u get better soon kas.

i just wanted to say, i, still being at school, know wat it feels like ot have teachers think there better than you etc etc etc, but i think that using unapropriate language in school is just pointless, because it gives quite a few problems, and less solutions. next time, go to the toilet before class etc etc etc.

----------


## Rheghead

> i just wanted to say, i, still being at school, know wat it feels like ot have teachers think there better than you etc etc etc.


Have you ever thought for one second (if you can put your hormone fuelled ego under control) that the teachers ARE better than you?  Come on, they have passed their exams, they have got degrees and post grads and they know what they are talking about, whether you agree or not.  I don't agree that the teachers should make out that they are better than you but you should still keep it in mind none the less. :Wink:

----------


## Mr P Cannop

> i havent read all the posts on the thread, because to be honest the thought of readin loads of posts about a girl who hurt herself, and swearin at teachers and all that doesnt particularlly interest me, whoever i do hope u get better soon kas.
> 
> i just wanted to say, i, still being at school, know wat it feels like ot have teachers think there better than you etc etc etc, but i think that using unapropriate language in school is just pointless, because it gives quite a few problems, and less solutions. next time, go to the toilet before class etc etc etc.


even if someone goes beofore class they might need durning class ??

----------


## katarina

I don't think anyone can comment fairly on this case without hearing both sides of the story.  
Why were the teachers talking about you, neep?  Is a child asking to go to the loo newsworthy enough for two teachers to discuss it unfavourably in your hearing?  After all, it must happen lot of the time.

If all you say is true (and I have no reason to think otherwise)  then you have indeed been treated unfairly.  there are bad teachers and unreasonable people in this world. However, we are not talking about one individual who might take a dislike to you (chemistry just doesn't work between some people, be it adult or child)  We're talking about THREE teachers.  Three proffessional adults against one hard working responsible child who just needed a pee?  Hmm...........

----------


## young_fishin_neep

> I don't think anyone can comment fairly on this case without hearing both sides of the story.  
> Why were the teachers talking about you, neep? Is a child asking to go to the loo newsworthy enough for two teachers to discuss it unfavourably in your hearing? After all, it must happen lot of the time.* the reason two teachers were talking about me was because i repeatedly asked nicely and in frustration i burst out saying sir i realy need a .... which i know i shouldnt have said but i was desperate for the loo!*
> 
> If all you say is true (and I have no reason to think otherwise) then you have indeed been treated unfairly. there are bad teachers and unreasonable people in this world. However, we are not talking about one individual who might take a dislike to you (chemistry just doesn't work between some people, be it adult or child) We're talking about THREE teachers. Three proffessional adults against one hard working responsible child who just needed a pee? Hmm...........


i dont dispute the fact i was in the wrong with what i said and i am fed up of emphasisng that but, i do know that its not nice to be refused the right  to go to the loo.

kaz xx

----------


## Ricco

> Have you ever thought for one second (if you can put your hormone fuelled ego under control) that the teachers ARE better than you? Come on, they have passed their exams, they have got degrees and post grads and they know what they are talking about, whether you agree or not. I don't agree that the teachers should make out that they are better than you but you should still keep it in mind none the less.


Can I just say, Rheghead, that teachers are no different than you.  They may have stayed on to Uni and got a degree, and they may be in charge of bringing the children on to better themselves and achieve the best they can.  But, can they service a car, build an extension, nurse someone better when they are ill?  Teaching just happens to be their vocation in life and they in their own way are grateful to the mechanics, builders, nurses, plumbers and sparks of this world for what they can do.

Granted, some of them seem to position themselves above all and sundry, but this coould be due to insecurity - it isn't easy dealing with a class 0f 20-30 pupils who develop something of a 'mob' mentality when in a large group.

We (teachers) are just the same as everyone else and most of us really enjoy our job (despite the impression we may give on occasion) and, being human, we don't always gte things right.

I feel sorry for the young lady in question who has inadvertantly come out of incognito and given her name away.  Cheer up dear, thiings will get better.  And tell yer mom that I like her Scrabster site!   :Grin:

----------


## Rheghead

> But, can they service a car, build an extension, nurse someone better when they are ill?  Teaching just happens to be their vocation in life and they in their own way are grateful to the mechanics, builders, nurses, plumbers and sparks of this world for what they can do.


A lot can, some can't but can the pupils? In the field and context of an educational environment, teachers are better than the pupils.  Pupils won't learn owt if they weren't.

----------


## squidge

Better is an interesting word - Are the teachers better than the pupils?  They are certainly more educated of course,  they are clearly older and more mature in the main, they have more experience, but better?  kinder, more tolerant, more generous, more truthful, more what?  Better than what?  

Teachers are to teach and we should respect that and be grateful for it but should the children see them as better than themselves - i dont know its an interesting question

----------


## katarina

> i dont dispute the fact i was in the wrong with what i said and i am fed up of emphasisng that but, i do know that its not nice to be refused the right  to go to the loo.
> 
> kaz xx


Ach, if it was really that bad, you should have just peed on the floor - they couldn't have excluded you then, could they?

----------


## changilass

> Ach, if it was really that bad, you should have just peed on the floor - they couldn't have excluded you then, could they?


She would have been excluded for damaging school property, and would never have lived it down poor lass

----------


## katarina

> Can I just say, Rheghead, that teachers are no different than you.  They may have stayed on to Uni and got a degree, and they may be in charge of bringing the children on to better themselves and achieve the best they can.  But, can they service a car, build an extension, nurse someone better when they are ill?  Teaching just happens to be their vocation in life and they in their own way are grateful to the mechanics, builders, nurses, plumbers and sparks of this world for what they can do.
> 
> Granted, some of them seem to position themselves above all and sundry, but this coould be due to insecurity - it isn't easy dealing with a class 0f 20-30 pupils who develop something of a 'mob' mentality when in a large group.
> 
> We (teachers) are just the same as everyone else and most of us really enjoy our job (despite the impression we may give on occasion) and, being human, we don't always gte things right.
> 
> I feel sorry for the young lady in question who has inadvertantly come out of incognito and given her name away.  Cheer up dear, thiings will get better.  And tell yer mom that I like her Scrabster site!


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression that reghead was talking about CHILDREN who had not yet fullfilled their protential, not other tradesmen/women.

----------


## katarina

> She would have been excluded for damaging school property, and would never have lived it down poor lass



i don't know about that - she might just have become a heroine!  The girl who struck a blow for piddlers rights!

----------


## dunderheed

so................................................  ................................. did they let you go to the toilet in the end ?  or did you wet yourself in class? or did you go and miss your bus?? or did you just hold til you got home?

----------


## unicorn

So what happens if a child is unlucky enough to get a tummy upset in school, Diahorrea waits for nobody.

----------


## Ricco

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression that reghead was talking about CHILDREN who had not yet fullfilled their protential, not other tradesmen/women.


Indeed he was, Katarina.  So was I. My point was that I personally don't think that teachers should consider themselves 'better' or of a higher status that anyone else.  Yes, they are older, more mature and wiser than children.  I agree with all that Rheghead said; my sympathy lies with the young lady in question, who (agreed) should not have sworn but was kept from answering a desperate call of nature.  However, we are all postulating on something that only she, the teacher concerned and possibly one or two witnesses actually can account for.  As I said in support of her - I hope that things die down quickly and return to normal.

----------


## katarina

> Indeed he was, Katarina.  So was I. My point was that I personally don't think that teachers should consider themselves 'better' or of a higher status that anyone else.  Yes, they are older, more mature and wiser than children.  I agree with all that Rheghead said; my sympathy lies with the young lady in question, who (agreed) should not have sworn but was kept from answering a desperate call of nature.  However, we are all postulating on something that only she, the teacher concerned and possibly one or two witnesses actually can account for.  As I said in support of her - I hope that things die down quickly and return to normal.


Could it not be that they are just acting 'more mature' and 'wiser' and 'better' it is only the kid's interpretation of they way they act?  And maybe the 'better' was just an unfortunate word to use.  I don't think they are 'better'  but they are more superior as in knowledge, wisdom, maturity, therefore should act accordingly whether the kids like it or no.
Anyway that has nothing to do with whether a child should be allowed to go to the toilet or not.

----------


## Ricco

> Anyway that has nothing to do with whether a child should be allowed to go to the toilet or not.


Quite agree with you there.  We have a 'warnings' list of those who we should always say 'yes' to... and those we should always say 'no' to.  The remainder are up to our discretion.

----------

