# General > General >  People trespassing on your land at night without permission

## Jerrico

Any fellow landowners had any experience of people trespassing on your land or property solely to gain access to hunt wild animals without your consent or permission, anybody been threatened by people trespassing, anybody had farm vehicles, equipment damaged post confronting trespassers? Three nights ago someone hung dead fox on my gate, in the morning it was very alarming for my wife and daughter; I find this as some kind threat after confronting them last week, I think going to the police a waste of time so few police about these days.

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## linnie612

If you feel you or your family are being threatened, then you should definately report it to the police - at the very least your concerns will be on record.

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## newweecroft

Definitely go to the police, wildlife crime and poaching are serious issues especially if there are firearms involved. Do not confront them, call the police and inform them there is an armed trespaser on your property committing wildlife crime. I should think you will be very impressed with their response.

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## rich62_uk

If you leave out the 'wildlife' part the response will be even better lmao.

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## billmoseley

if you feel threatened  then surely under new guide lines then you can use force to protect yourself.

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## newweecroft

> if you feel threatened then surely under new guide lines then you can use force to protect yourself.


Against an armed trespaser who is quite happily breaking the law at the time?

STAY THE HELL IN SIDE, USE A CAMERA IF YOU CAN, IT WILL BE BY FAR THE SAFEST AND MOST EFFECTIVE WEAPON! (unless you have ducatis skill set and confidence)

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## Alrock

What piece of "Private" ground are we talking about here? Your back garden?

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## Jerrico

> What piece of "Private" ground are we talking about here? Your back garden?


100 acres with sheep, goats and one tame roe deer, not going to tell you exactly where I live its near Watten, you never know you could be one of the idiots trespassing on my land at night taking the mick!

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## Alrock

> ...you never know you could be one of the idiots trespassing on my land at night taking the mick!


Well... I can categorically state that I am not one of "the idiots"... this thread just opens up a can of worms over the issue of land ownership & access....
Which are you mad about...
Them being on "your land" or what they did whilst on "your land" or both?

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## parkie

a bit of manner.s would help all they have to do is ask,if the answer,s no go else where with there gun,s,no way would i have some-one on my land with fire arm,s,phone police

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## Alrock

> a bit of manner.s would help all they have to do is ask,if the answer,s no go else where with there gun,s,no way would i have some-one on my land with fire arm,s,phone police


If the firearms are illegal or the are using them in an illegal way then report them to the police for that no matter whose land it is.

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## veekay

It might be worth your while reading the Scottish Outdoor Access Code which came into effect in 2005 this lays out the rights and resposiblilites of both land owners and land users. Access rights certainly don't include hunting, shooting or fishing

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## Alrock

> It might be worth your while reading the Scottish Outdoor Access Code which came into effect in 2005 this lays out the rights and resposiblilites of both land owners and land users. Access rights certainly don't include hunting, shooting or fishing


Maybe they don't but they should.... If hunting, shooting & fishing is a legal activity then everybody should be allowed to do it.... & before you make assumptions I would like to clarify that I don't hunt, shoot or fish but I do believe that I should have equal rights to do so if I wish whether I "own" the land myself or not..

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## secrets in symmetry

Have you considered land mines?

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## Connor.

I agree with Secrets. I have spent the last 10 minutes thinking of ideas and this is the only solid solution to your problem. 

Either that or buy a bigger gun than them.

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## veekay

> Maybe they don't but they should.... If hunting, shooting & fishing is a legal activity then everybody should be allowed to do it.... & before you make assumptions I would like to clarify that I don't hunt, shoot or fish but I do believe that I should have equal rights to do so if I wish whether I "own" the land myself or not..


But I am sure that before you went ahead and did any or all of the above activities you would be polite enough to ask permission wouldn't you

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## Alrock

> But I am sure that before you went ahead and did any or all of the above activities you would be polite enough to ask permission wouldn't you


Why should I?

a. not every piece of land has a sign telling you who owns it & who to contact.
b. even if you did know who owned the land it might not be very easy to contact them there & then to ask them if you may walk on a piece of this planet Earth.
c. even if you could comply with both of the above then why should you? what gives the owners more rights over this planet than anybody else?

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## changilass

So I take it you wouldnae mind me bringng my dowg to your garden to do its business, after all what gives you the owner of the garden more rights than my dowg?

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## parkie

put them to alrock back garden

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## sids

Discharging a firearm during the hours of darkness can be an offence.

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## Alrock

> So I take it you wouldnae mind me bringng my dowg to your garden to do its business, after all what gives you the owner of the garden more rights than my dowg?


From my original post... 


> What piece of "Private" ground are we talking about here? Your back garden?


 I was being sarcastic, meaning that unless it was your "back garden" it cannot be considered an invasion of your privacy & you shouldn't have cause to complaint unless they did some sort of damage.




> Discharging a firearm during the hours of darkness can be an offence.


Then you report them for that offence not for where they where doing it.

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## sids

> Then you report them for that offence not for where they where doing it.


I think you'd have to tell the cops where they did it, or it would be hard to investigate.

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## donnick

Am i right in thinking there is no trespassing laws in Scotland ...?

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## ravenblueice

Erm have you considered the dead fox on your gate may have been them letting you know they have been there, after foxes and that they assume you would be pleased?  I know not everyone would be but alot of folk with livestock have porblems with vermin control, they may beleive they have been doing you a favor....

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## squidge

Isnt there a tradition of hanging foxes on gates - i thought i read that somewhere?

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## rich62_uk

Yes Squidge there is I thought it was for the smell to warn other foxes but then I am a townie by birth ! Just something I heard.

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## sids

> Am i right in thinking there is no trespassing laws in Scotland ...?


There some, to do with the railway, I think.

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## Connor.

> Am i right in thinking there is no trespassing laws in Scotland ...?


It's right to roam I believe.
*
The right to roam: The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003* This  legislation establishes a right of non-motorised access over most land  and inland water*. The Act is supported by the Scottish Outdoor Access  Code and places new responsibilities on local authorities and national  park authorities to uphold access rights. In addition, Local Access  Forums have been set up in all local authority areas and national parks.  They are helping to promote the new access arrangements and encourage  the development of new path networks.

 *apart from people with a disability using a vehicle adapted for their use.

Source: http://www.ramblers.org.uk/scotland/...g-in-scotland2

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## mi16

> Maybe they don't but they should.... If hunting, shooting & fishing is a legal activity then everybody should be allowed to do it.... & before you make assumptions I would like to clarify that I don't hunt, shoot or fish but I do believe that I should have equal rights to do so if I wish whether I "own" the land myself or not..


Are you for real?

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## Dadie

Everyone can fish, shoot and hunt even if they do not own the land, but and this is a serious but, they need the landowners pemission or the legal permits, that makes the practice legal!
And avoids over culling of the species in question be it trout, salmon or deer etc..
Or at least let the landowner that vermin control are working on their land for safety issues if it concerns rats and foxes etc.

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## Southern-Gal

Some land has legal sporting rights and  they dont always belong to the current owner of the land.

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## auk

Duo had no permission to hunt

TWO Thurso men were ordered to carry out unpaid community service after they admitted poaching for rabbits on Baillie Farm land at Westfield.
Dean Meiklejohn (22) of Royal Terrace and William Sutherland (21) pleaded guilty to the offence which occurred on October 7.  Sutherland admitted a further charge of having a knife in his possession.
Meiklejohn will carry out 75 hours unpaid community service and his co-accused 150 hours.

Here Alrock I suppose your back garden isnt any more important than someone elses private land after all. What a surprise !!!

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## parkie

well said auk

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## sids

They have to do it without permission.

Otherwise it wouldn't be trespassing.

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## Alrock

> TWO Thurso men were ordered to carry out unpaid community service after they admitted *poaching* for rabbits on *Baillie Farm land* at Westfield.


*Baillie Farm land...* Not the farmers back garden I presume
*poaching....* In the eyes of an unjust law maybe, to me they where merely hunting for dinner (only a presumption as you post has no mention of why they took some rabbits)

OK... This is what really gets me about all this...
You have people struggling to live on benefits, people giving them a hard time for being "scroungers" & tell them that they should get a job ignoring the fact that there are not enough jobs to go round....

What are the alternatives?

Hunting  & gathering food... No... You'll get done for trespass & poaching...
Deciding to live where they want & build their own shelter... No... Once again they'd get done for trespass and/or lack of planning permission...
Drink the water Mother Nature supplies... No... Too polluted by modern industrial farming...

So... What alternatives do you suggest?

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## sids

> So... What alternatives do you suggest?


Find a farm with a rabbit problem and ask nicely.

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## Alrock

> Find a farm with a rabbit problem and ask nicely.



Why should I have to ask... I should have a right...A man cannot live by rabbit alone... I might want some bigger prey, say a deer, can't see many "landowners" letting me take a deer for food... or say there is no larger prey because the land has been sanitized of its natural wildlife to make way for farming, can I kill a sheep to eat?

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## changilass

What planet do you live on?

I'm just grateful its not the same one as I do.

Trespassing and poaching is your idea of someone supplementing their benefits.

How is it plenty of folks manage on benefits without resorting to crime.  Granted, it might be a bit tight, but they do manage.

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## Alrock

> Trespassing and poaching is your idea of someone supplementing their benefits.


No... Everybody or Nobody should be able to supplement their Benefits/Wage off the land no matter whether they are a privaleged landowner or not, I'm not advocating any one position, just that everybody should have the same rights over access & the wild produce of that land.




> How is it plenty of folks manage on benefits without resorting to crime.  Granted, it might be a bit tight, but they do manage.


Because they have to... Myself included... Yes, it is a bit tight, but I manage.

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## mi16

Why should everyone have the right to hunt on land that a person has bought and paid for and legally owns?
Would you be OK with me hunting your cat in your garden and eating it?

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## Alrock

> Why should everyone have the right to hunt on land that a person has bought and paid for and legally owns?
> Would you be OK with me hunting your cat in your garden and eating it?


I don't know how many times I have to repeat this.... I am not talking about your own personal back garden or peoples pets....

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## mi16

And what difference is their in a persons garden and a persons farmland?
They are both privately owned.

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## Alrock

> And what difference is their in a persons garden and a persons farmland?
> They are both privately owned.


Their garden is their personal space... Their land is just land they have the rights to work, grow crops, raise livestock, etc, as long as a person is not interfering with that then they should have the right to make use of that land also.

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## mi16

> Their garden is their personal space... Their land is just land they have the rights to work, grow crops, raise livestock, etc, as long as a person is not interfering with that then they should have the right to make use of that land also.


Incorrect they are both the assets of the owner, they legally own that land and do not just have the right to work it.
Out of interest how would you propose to catch these rabbits or deer you theoretically plan on hunting?

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## Alrock

> Incorrect they are both the assets of the owner, they legally own that land and do not just have the right to work it.


I never tried to claim that I was correct as of the law right now, I am just expressing my own personal view on the matter...




> Out of interest how would you propose to catch these rabbits or deer you theoretically plan on hunting?


& once again....
I never tried to claim that I had any intention of catching rabbits or deer, I am just expressing my own personal view that I should have the right to do so if I choose.

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## mi16

> I never tried to claim that I was correct as of the law right now, I am just expressing my own personal view on the matter...
> 
> 
> & once again....
> I never tried to claim that I had any intention of catching rabbits or deer, I am just expressing my own personal view that I should have the right to do so if I choose.


What makes a garden personal space and a field not?
On the secon point that is why I said theoretically, so theoretically how would you catch the rabbits or deer?
Would you use firearms, dogs, a spear, traps or perhaps your bare hands?

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## Alrock

> What makes a garden personal space and a field not?


What's the difference between someone standing with their face right in yours & standing 3 feet away?
Personal space...




> On the secon point that is why I said theoretically, so theoretically how would you catch the rabbits or deer?
> Would you use firearms, dogs, a spear, traps or perhaps your bare hands?


Like I said... Never had the intention so never really given it much thought...

& Yes... I know I'm being a bit simplistic & that things are never that simple....
The whole relationship between landowners & the general population needs to be reassessed with this as the starting point... access & rights of use for all...

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## mi16

> What's the difference between someone standing with their face right in yours & standing 3 feet away?
> Personal space...
> 
> 
> Like I said... Never had the intention so never really given it much thought...
> 
> & Yes... I know I'm being a bit simplistic & that things are never that simple....
> The whole relationship between landowners & the general population needs to be reassessed with this as the starting point... access & rights of use for all...


How can you define how much land a person is allowed as personal space?
Many properties have no garden at all, are they being denied their basic human right to ample personal space?

The public have the right to roam as it stands, expecting to be able to go and hunt willy nilly is a bit ridiculous to be honest, whats next in your world, the right to grow crops and raise livestock regardless of the land ownership?

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## sids

You can still roam freely over Shaltigeo and hunt limpets by speed of foot.

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## Alrock

> How can you define how much land a person is allowed as personal space?
> Many properties have no garden at all, are they being denied their basic human right to ample personal space?
> 
> The public have the right to roam as it stands, expecting to be able to go and hunt willy nilly is a bit ridiculous to be honest, whats next in your world, the right to grow crops and raise livestock regardless of the land ownership?


I can't give you exact answers, that would be part of the reassessment process, but if you want my opinion then garden area would probably be derived by some mathematical formula based on the size of a house to give a maximum area of garden that can be considered personal space. There would be no minimum.

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## Alrock

> You can still roam freely over Shaltigeo and hunt limpets by speed of foot.


Thank You... That's good to know in case I ever get the urge to go limpet hunting.

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## changilass

> I can't give you exact answers, that would be part of the reassessment process, but if you want my opinion then garden area would probably be derived by some mathematical formula based on the size of a house to give a maximum area of garden that can be considered personal space. There would be no minimum.


This would involve tax payers having to pay idiotic sums to compensate land owners, and what for?
All that would happen is you would decide to play on one bit of land and someone else would want to play on the same bit and you would end up killing each other for the privilege.
The ones with no garden would be up in arms, deciding you had too much garden and it would all have to be reassessed again so folks could play in your private space.
Total bliddy nonsense.

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## Alrock

> This would involve tax payers having to pay idiotic sums to compensate land owners, and what for?


Why? They would still "own" the land, just have less control over it.




> All that would happen is you would decide to play on one bit of land and someone else would want to play on the same bit and you would end up killing each other for the privilege.
> The ones with no garden would be up in arms, deciding you had too much garden and it would all have to be reassessed again so folks could play in your private space.
> Total bliddy nonsense.


lol.

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## auk

> Their garden is their personal space... Their land is just land they have the rights to work, grow crops, raise livestock, etc, as long as a person is not interfering with that then they should have the right to make use of that land also.


Alrock would this also apply to large buildings for example factories or industrial units that may have problems with pigeons? Remember this is only property the owner has rights to work in, produce goods or store materials. 
Maybe you could come up with some mathematical formula that could decide how much of this property they are actually allowed to be in 
control of even though they have purchased it.
If you could come up with a sufficent formula for this could you please share it with us all.
By the way I also have a pair of shoes I purchased which gives me the right to wear and walk around in them, but feel free to use them whenever you want, as long as you arent interfering with when I need to wear them

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## Alrock

> Alrock would this also apply to large buildings for example factories or industrial units that may have problems with pigeons? Remember this is only property the owner has rights to work in, produce goods or store materials. 
> Maybe you could come up with some mathematical formula that could decide how much of this property they are actually allowed to be in 
> control of even though they have purchased it.
> If you could come up with a sufficent formula for this could you please share it with us all.
> By the way I also have a pair of shoes I purchased which gives me the right to wear and walk around in them, but feel free to use them whenever you want, as long as you arent interfering with when I need to wear them


As a building they would have control of it all... Doubt your shoes would fit me, I have big feet.

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## parkie

every-one to alrock back garden for a bit of fun 2am,3am right to roam

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## Alrock

> every-one to alrock back garden for a bit of fun 2am,3am right to roam


You bring the carry-out & I'll provide the music... lol

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## Jerrico

Looks like it maybe problem solved according to Caithness Courier but I won't hold my breath its not just these individuals out hunting at night. Might have to make things difficult like padlocking gates, blocking access routes with machinery plus other measures.

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## newweecroft

> *Baillie Farm land...* Not the farmers back garden I presume*poaching....* In the eyes of an unjust law maybe, to me they where merely hunting for dinner (only a presumption as you post has no mention of why they took some rabbits)OK... This is what really gets me about all this...You have people struggling to live on benefits, people giving them a hard time for being "scroungers" & tell them that they should get a job ignoring the fact that there are not enough jobs to go round....What are the alternatives?Hunting  & gathering food... No... You'll get done for trespass & poaching...Deciding to live where they want & build their own shelter... No... Once again they'd get done for trespass and/or lack of planning permission...Drink the water Mother Nature supplies... No... Too polluted by modern industrial farming...So... What alternatives do you suggest?


I agree but you should include collecting windfall timber from government owned land, how many people are struggling to buy coal to heat their Homes this winter but could collect wood?

Dont worry allrock, some people are just slow minded or pointedly refuse to admit they they understand your point if it gives them the option of causing strife.
Unlike shoes, although potentially inclusive of, land is not going to go in our coffin with us, we are not going to get fed up with its colour or style and thow it out, it can be modified beyond recocognition but it will remain eternally in its allocated spot until our sun dies.

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## annemarie482

Just to throw in something i haven't seen mentioned.....
Getting permission to shoot, walk whatever on one ones land, is also for safety.
Or Permission to use may have restrictions,

Eg:
Land owner gives person permission to shoot for deer on land,
Person goes on land having been told they are the only peron out shooting,
Person comes across someone in the dark, they didn't know was there 
and let's hope they didn't shoot them mistaking their movement for a deer......

Person goes fishing without permit regularly
Turns out land owner had added stock and prohibited fishing to allow stock to increase.
Who's causing damage now?

Lastly, MANNERS cost nothing, 
it's only common decency to ask to use something that does not belong to you.

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## Dadie

As,I said before ask .
The landowner or permit holder...etc...
asking costs nought.....getting caught without permission costs more!

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## parkie

your not in-vited, sorry no land owner,s

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## Mrs Bucket

Trip wires I believe they work so Im told.

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## linedancer1

I maybe wrong or behind the times but I didn't think there was such a thing as a 'trespass law'  in Scotland, this may have been changed with the introduction of the Countryside Access Code,only good manners to ask though!!!

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## Alrock

> ....only good manners to ask though!!!


Are you saying that if I want to get from A to B & the shortest route is via C but in order to go via C I should go via D first in order to get permission to go via C?

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## murr

sorry to but in but some of the comments on here are s..t u need permision to shoot on land from the owner of it other wise classed as poaching there is no tresspasing law in scotland as long as u are not damaging property and it gives the ones we permission a bad name u can hunt we a spot lamp at night for sertan animals but u still need permission and it is commen courtsy to ask first

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## Errogie

It's a popular misconception that you enjoy outright ownership of your land in Scotland. No, you own an "interest" which is not total or exclusive, the only thing you own outright is the scrap of paper on which your title is recorded. So far as sporting rights over a croft is concerned these may still be with the landlord even in the case where the tenant has bought out his landlords interest.


Part 1 of the Land Reform Scotland Act 2003 has been a success with fewer access problems than before it's introduction which was really about giving full recognition to what was regarded as custom and repute under common law. There is a Tresspass Scotland of 1865 dealing with anyone who builds a shed or similar on your land. Any threatened action against a "tresspasser" over an access problem is unenforceable. Sporting rights are quite different. The "curtilage" or garden area appropriate to a dwelling house or other building has yet to be defined by case law but no doubt will be in the future. one answer may be to tie it to the area of valuation for Council Tax banding valuation. Anyone who can be shown to not have followed the Access Code may be said to be outwith his or her access rights. The Access Code is very similar to the Highway Code. A breach is not an offence per se but may be the base for further action.

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## linedancer1

> Are you saying that if I want to get from A to B & the shortest route is via C but in order to go via C I should go via D first in order to get permission to go via C?


Dear me Alrock, don't you know the A routes are always better than the B,C & D routes.  You woud use a lot less fuel by going straight to A and asking permission from the landowner!!!!!!

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## Alrock

> Dear me Alrock........You woud use a lot less fuel by going straight to A and asking permission from the landowner!!!!!!


Can you nae read.... 

I'm already in A... It's B that I'm trying to get to... The landowner is at D (which is miles out of the way)... The shortest route is via C...

Oh... Also... I'm walking, not driving, unless, by "fuel" you mean my Wheatabix _(other breakfast cereals available)_.

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## Dadie

Always best to get permmision or at least warn abcd or whatever letter of the alphabet (whoevers land) you are crossing to get to where you are going to shoot on you are going across their land to get to A-Z (whatever letter) so you are known and not accused of poaching on the way back or getting funny looks and stopped on the way there.....Its common courtesy after all and avoids confrontation from unhappy parties that think something untoward has happened on their land!

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## ducati

I want to go to F. How the hell do I get there?  ::

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## mi16

> I want to go to F. How the hell do I get there?


There are a few on here than can get to F.

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## linedancer1

> I want to go to F. How the hell do I get there?


Ask alrock, he knows all the routes and which fuel to use as well (weatabix, ready brek, frosties etc, etc, etc!!!!)

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## Errogie

Ducati, to get to F you have to walk backwards from where you are at H via G.

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## Chicken kid

If they are doing no damage then that's not trespassing because the is no law against trespassing in Scotland

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## BRIE

Where we live there is a big problem with with people trespassing at night to poach rabbits.
The problems we have with this is:
1. There's livestock in the fields varying from cows,sheep & horses, the trespassers take dogs with them that can worry the stock causing loss of lambs & calves this in turn means loss of income for us.
2.To us the our fields are our back garden our children play in these fields, my children don't deserve to feel unsafe on our own land! seeing strange men/women wandering around with guns at dusk is enough to frighten an adult witless never mind small children! & worse my child could be shot by mistake!
3.The trespassers usually climb over fences causing damage in turn costing us money!
4. on the rare occasion trespassers do use the gate they sometimes don't shut them properly resulting in livestock escaping onto the road, putting the animals & road users in danger.
So to avoid all this all it takes is common courtesy to ask permission first. There are several groups of shooters that come up to stay in the area ever year & they always ask permission first, we point them in the direction of the fields that are safe to be in & everyone is happy.Manners don't cost anything loss of livestock or lives do!!

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## jacko

i used to have firearms, yes, i did have the proper certificates for rifle and shotgun and i had an invitation license. i never went out with a gun at night and i always had the common curtesy to ASK  the land owner , and  if given permission, i would ask him/her when and where could i shoot . it is his/ her land and their right to give or refuse. why anyone would want to discharge a weapon in the dark  is beyond any reasonable thinking.

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## ducati

> i used to have firearms, yes, i did have the proper certificates for rifle and shotgun and i had an invitation license. i never went out with a gun at night and i always had the common curtesy to ASK the land owner , and if given permission, i would ask him/her when and where could i shoot . it is his/ her land and their right to give or refuse. why anyone would want to discharge a weapon in the dark is beyond any reasonable thinking.


Youre absolutely right jacko, hunting at night often gives rise to Darwen awards.

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## piratelassie

Could not agree more. Land ownership is a very contentious subject.






> Maybe they don't but they should.... If hunting, shooting & fishing is a legal activity then everybody should be allowed to do it.... & before you make assumptions I would like to clarify that I don't hunt, shoot or fish but I do believe that I should have equal rights to do so if I wish whether I "own" the land myself or not..

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## ducati

Great! We'll be independent and have to put up with any old oik tromping over our land.

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## piratelassie

Ducati, grow up.





> Great! We'll be independent and have to put up with any old oik tromping over our land.

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## ducati

Tell that to Robert Mugabe!

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## George Brims

Jerrico, here's my solution for you. We sometimes park our car down a dead-end road and walk the forest trails beyond. The last house on that street is a bit isolated and so they may have some security concerns. There is a sign on their fence that says "Our Doberman can get to the fence in six seconds from anywhere on this property. Can you?" I don't even know if they actually _have_ a Doberman, but who is going to chance it?
(Before anyone calls me out for maligning Dobermans and contributing to their unfortunate image; I know, we have one.)

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## jacko

there you go then George,  their telling folks not to tresspass 

"Our Doberman can get to the fence in six seconds from anywhere on this property. Can you?"  ..................... that say s it all

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## ducati

How about; my 303 rifle can get to the fence in .04 of a second. Can you?  ::

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