# General > Pets Corner >  Puppy sales on .org

## Stefan

Should puppy sales be banned again on the org?
Personally I find that it encourages too many people to try and make some quick money whilst the local rescue places are overflowing with unwanted dogs.
I my opinion no reputable breeder needs a forum to advertise puppies as they are sold before they are even born. So far I have not seen a single advert for kc registered and health checked pups of any breed who have been bred for temperament on here and meet all the breed standards and health requirements. (Sorry if there was any.)
It seems that as soon as puppy sellers are asked certain questions or their breeding practices are highlighted they close the thread and start a new one.
Recently discussions in the pet corner have been hijacked to sell puppies and genuinely concerned people have been attacked by breeders and even threatened via pm.
Please vote have your opinion registered.

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## Ricanna

Last one I heard, £450 for a Cocker x Yorkie. Absolute nonsense. You can buy a half decent young horse for that.

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## starfish

> Last one I heard, £450 for a Cocker x Yorkie. Absolute nonsense. You can buy a half decent young horse for that.


 but a least if they are stupid enough to pay that sort of money for a cross breed . then perhaps they really want a dog and will look after it. and it would not be back on here when they are fed up with it

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## Ricanna

Doubt it--they will just think that's what you have to pay for a pup if you compare it with a yorko-doodle, a cocker doo doo etc. -rip off to the public and a tragedy for the pup

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## starfish

> Doubt it--they will just think that's what you have to pay for a pup if you compare it with a yorko-doodle, a cocker doo doo etc. -rip off to the public and a tragedy for the pup


 they are just stupid in my eye a cross breed used to be called a mongrel they people are being con by fancy celebrity names for them

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## Ricanna

> they are just stupid in my eye a cross breed used to be called a mongrel they people are being con by fancy celebrity names for them


Indeed. they are mongrels, they are great. they are one's pals but they should cost no more than £50 and if any breeders of same want to disagree, lets hear from you

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## golach

> Recently discussions in the pet corner have been hijacked to sell puppies and genuinely concerned people have been attacked by breeders and even threatened via pm.


If this is so Stefan, then maybe you should have set up your poll so that the way the voters vote is not publicised. And no nasty threats can be made.

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## Maccy

Stefan Im so with you on this. Yes they should be banned on here ! It breaks my heart when so called breeders are not prepared to do all the health checks, & have done all the necessary checks of the bloodlines.

After saying this, as a buyer I would check out the pedigree myself first, & any reputable breeder would be happy for you to do this prior to buying / deposit.

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## Foxy

Gee whizz folks, do you really think that banning puppy adverts on the org will stop people breeding puppies?. In a word the answer is no. I have bought 2 puppies from people on the org, before i even thought about buying a puppy i had to decide if i had the time to devote to all the time and training it would need and if so what size of dog i wanted. My dogs are now 4 and 5 years old and loved dearly. What amazes me is people who don't think seriously about the long term comitment that bonnie wee puppy is going to be and in some cases how large it may become. Why do the breeders always get the blame if there wasn't a market they wouldn't be breeding pups and as for all these so called designer dogs that are really mongrels the phrase a fool and there money springs to mind?

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## unicorn

I would agree with Foxy, there are some very genuine people on the org who do their very best to provide quality dogs when they breed them, why should they all be stopped for the few. 
I think it should be at the discretion of mods, if it seems someone is endlessly advertising pups, then their bitch probably is not rested etc and they don't give a stuff about where the pups go.

What I find more concerning is the people endlessly rehoming animals time and time again then posting wanting something else and 6 months later it's advertised and looking for yet another pet.
If you ban the sale of 1 animal all should be banned. It is not just dogs that are overbred for profit.
I intend to breed my whippet, I went to the very best breeder and got the best of his lines. I have his full line here, does it make me a bad person that I want to breed my dog and bitch? They are an exceptional line and I believe it should be continued, I wont charge silly money no more than the original breeder of this line does, I intend to chip the pups before they ever leave me so that god forbid, there is a problem they come back to me. All health checks will be done and contracts will be drawn up about what should happen if circumstances change. I agree with the original breeder of my line that I would rather produce quality pups at a sensible price than pump out poor bred animals at inflated prices.

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## sids

> Last one I heard, £450 for a Cocker x Yorkie. Absolute nonsense. You can buy a half decent young horse for that.


Strange analogy. We don't just buy the largest animal we can afford!

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## caithgal

I believe that any breeder who has pups for sale should be free to place an advert for their pups however it should be mandatory that the pups, dam and sire have the relevant health tests regardless of whether they are pedigree or not.  I feel that asking about why there are no heath tests is a valid question to ask and does not constitute abuse in any way, shape or form.  This then leads me to belive that the breeder may be hiding other issues and i for one would certainly not have one from a litter.  Even if the pup was a cross breed there are still breed standard tests that can be done on the parents to enable the pup to have the healthiest start in life.  Of course there are never any solid guarantees but as a breeder you would think that whoever would want exactly that - the best life for their pups.  And as a buyer folk should be aware that the breed tests are invaluable as not only reassurance that every possible step has been taken by the breeder to ensure a healthy pup but also to save thousands in vet fees in later life etc.

So after that yes i believe that pups should be allowed to be be advertised however i think it should be monitored closely.  And of course if your pet were to have unwanted pregnancy then the vet can assist with abortion to ensure no more unwanted animals are brought into the world as a mistake.  Then you also have the responsibility of neutering your pet prior/or after lesson learnt to this happening.  Its not rocket science just good old fashioned common sense

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## sweetpea

I think that people should still be able to advertise here but that it should be regulated more such as only being allowed one ad ever and in an ideal world total ban on Staffy pups ads instead more rehome ads for them. Personally I think that there are far too many back yard breeders and in an ideal world I'd like to see licences brought back for breeding and owning dogs but that doesn't seem to be happening. I'd also prefer to see people rehome rather than buying puppies or any other animal especially when it's for little kids who haven't got a clue and the adults get fed up with them then and they get passed from pillar to post.
I rehomed a dog on here but I was clued up and knew what's what but I reckon most of the general public haven't got a clue about what they should be asking before getting a dog i.e. health tests, chipping, jags and all that sort of thing, think a lot of the time they see a cute face and bairns screaming that they want it without knowing the ins and outs, so maybe a sticky 'what to ask/do before buying a dog' may be of use. 
I also agree with those of you who mention designer dogs, I can't get my head around that, why on earth folk want to cross some of these breeds is beyond me. In the case of Staffy's I'd like to see a complete ban on the advertising of pups here and more ads for ones needing new homes as the resuce shelters are bursting with them all over the country.

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## Dadie

I dont think the ads should be banned, but more regulated.
i.e puppies should not go to their new homes before 8 weeks and be wormed and vet checked beforehand.
Infact any animal being sold should not go from their mums until the minimum age recommended.
In an ideal world the seller should be made to provide persons interested in the pups a home phone no and not just a mobile no as well as an address and offer a lifetime garantee to take the pup back if things go wrong....like thats going to happen!

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## NickInTheNorth

I don't think banning puppy sales on the org is going to make any difference in the big scheme of things.

What is really required is a sea change in the attitude to dog breeding and ownership in the UK.

Dog breeding should be limited to registered breeders. Any dog being sold to someone other than a registered breeder should be neutered - and I know that has a knock on effect as to the age at which bitches in particular can be sold. But so what, far better that we stop the sale of "puppies" and start selling dogs, and make the breeders take responsibility for ensuring they are putting well trained animals out into society.

Dog ownership is currently far too easy, people take it on without really knowing what a full time commitment it is. Owning a dog is an expensive business and it should be made much harder to own any dog.

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## starfish

sweetpea staffies can make excellent family pets, i know of several that are part of families with small children are are the best behave dogs i know. Please do not slate this breed its the idiots that train them to be aggressive and badly behaved .You should be slating not the defenceless dog . most of the staffies that have turn out wrong are owned by mindless thugs and people that should not have a dog as they can not look after their selves let alone a pet

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## sweetpea

starfish, I'm not slating the breed what I'm against is breedign more of them when there are thousands already out there that need homes.

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## starfish

the way i read your last post was that you only mention staffies when the homes are full of all sorts of dogs large and small the same with kittens

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## sweetpea

Yes and I stand by that, nowhere did I say anything about Staffies 'as a breed' or anything about them as dogs, I have nothing against them,  just that there are far too many needing rehomed, there are charities and rehome centres all over the country dedicated to rehoming 'just Staffies'. I know there are plenty of other dogs, rabbits (in fact about 35,000 needing rehomed) but unwanted Staffies and Staffie x dogs are a major problem in this country so I don't see the need to breed more of them when there are perfectly good ones out there.

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## starfish

i agree with that but there a grey hound rescue centre  ect i think spading should be cheapper then more dogs would get dressed

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## binnes

I really dont know the answer to this one. The one thing that I do know is that every time I see pictures of a puppy for sale on here, it does make me wonder whether the breader is doing it to make a quick buck or if they are genuine caring breeders. Seeing those little innocent faces on here just makes me hope they go to a good, for life home.

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## sids

> i think spading should be cheapper


Only as a last resort!

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## neepnipper

> i agree with that but there a grey hound rescue centre ect i think spading should be cheapper then more dogs would get dressed


I think you mean spaying!

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## starfish

i did but get so annoyed when people just say about staffies when they moan about to many unwanted pups being produced . That my thought over take my brain

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## Stefan

I have made the polling public for the very reason that people should stand to their opinion rather than hide. If anybody is getting unpleasant private messages in relation to this thread please report them to the moderators.
Many people on here hide behind a username, I believe in being open and clear about who you are and what your thoughts are. This should be a safe environment to voice your opinion. If it is not it needs to be changed.
I am against puppy sales on here. There was a good reason it was banned in the past. Reputable breeders will not need an online forum to sell puppies. There are other outlets should a reputable breeder be left with a pup that was spoken for. Advertising a whole litter on an online forum means the puppies were bred to make money. A reputable breeder will not breed to make money, the cost of health checks, vaccinations, micro chipping, feed, care and registration should be covered by the price the breeder is asking. Making a healthy profit from puppy breeding is not possible nor wanted if done in a responsible way.
If one would check the previous adverts for puppies and older dogs on this forum (bearing in mind some will have been deleted once they are not needed) the amount of puppies offered seems totally out of proportion for such a small community.
I have never bought a puppy from a breeder myself. I always rescue my dogs and keep them for life. I currently have three, two of which are deaf, all from the RSPCA. That does not mean I would not buy from a registered breeder, I just never had a preference for a certain pure bred dog, so I was happy to obtain my dogs from a rescue center.
The breeds need to be developed but it needs to be done carefully and selectively, none of which this forum is supporting. I understand the moderators have limited time to devote and screening puppy sellers for their practice is certainly not something they would have the time or necessarily the knowledge to do.
So maybe it would be best if the forum went back to banning puppy sales and let breeders use other outlets like the local paper?
I would certainly be happy if this was the case again.

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## golach

I am sorry in your first post you said "Recently discussions in the pet corner have been hijacked to sell puppies and genuinely concerned people have been attacked by breeders and even threatened via pm." If the poll had been anonymous. i.e. no Org Id, how could threats be made via PM, as you stated.

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## unicorn

I think the org is a very good place, if you advertise in scot ads or the paper etc you have no knowledge about the prospective owner, at least here you can check old posts and get a feel for the person.

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## crustyroll

> I dont think the ads should be banned, but more regulated.
> i.e puppies should not go to their new homes before 8 weeks and be wormed and vet checked beforehand.
> Infact any animal being sold should not go from their mums until the minimum age recommended.
> In an ideal world the seller should be made to provide persons interested in the pups a home phone no and not just a mobile no as well as an address and offer a lifetime garantee to take the pup back if things go wrong....like thats going to happen!


I voted no to the ads being banned but I do agree that people shouldnt hide behind their org name or totally ignore questions being asked by people on the org.  If you look at the recent thread on my puppy advert in the for sale section you will see that I haven't hidden anything and still got slated for it.

By the way, I do offer a lifetime guarantee as a local orger will tell you, I took her puppy back when he was a year old and rehomed him myself. I have a contract that the buyers and I sign to cover all those aspects and I advertise on here only when I have a pup left over from my waiting list.  Unfortunately this time I do have a pup left over as the majority of folk on my waiting list were wanting girls.  I also advertise on champdogs where cross breeds aren't allowed and the site is well monitored for any dodgy dealings.  I have advertised in the local paper but it isn't cheap and when compared to the responses I've had, isn't worth it.  Why is the Org different from having an advert in the Groat?   

I'm being totally honest here and will probably get a right slating for it.  I'm not in it to make money but I can't pull money out of thin air and after paying a stud fee, the emergency vets bills for a section, extra feeding and washing, vet bed and all the little extras that cost money, ie, I make a puppy pack and all the paper and ink cartridges that are used to print it all out still costs money.  I think this litter is running at a loss but to me that's not what matters. What matters is that I've got a girl out of it for me, 2 fantastic homes lined up for the pups and an extra boy staying here until the right home comes along for him. If a home doesn't come along, then he stays, simple as that, he won't be given to anyone just because I don't want the extra mouth to feed, I'm not that kind of person.  I'm hoping to show the girl that I'm keeping and when she's old enough I will breed her and again hopefully keep a girl for myself, again to show and be part of the family as well above all else.  Again, if a puppy comes back for whatever reason then they will stay here until a home is found for him/her, I care far too much for them to be passed from pillar to post.  I don't kiss and cuddle them or get up during the night, spend all my time with them, have my house chewed to bits for nothing.

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## canadagirl

I cringe every time I see a puppies for sale ad. It's not so much the homes they're going to, as the conditions the mums could be in. I had a rescue dog from a "breeder". The poor thing had been kept in a cage all her life, debarked so she couldn't make annoying noise, and very little human contact. This is very common with all the small cross-breed dogs. The money these little dogs bring in encourages people to do it. Licensing doesn't do much good. The only thing that will stop it is awareness. Never ever buy a dog without seeing the conditions the parents are kept in.  ::

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## mop top

Whilst i see the logic in what is being said re the banning of pup sales on the org, has anyone stopped to think what will happen to the puppies which will still be bred if that happens?  Do you think that all of a sudden they will just stop breeding them?  I deal with the aftermath of the puppies and dogs being dumped in Caithness on a daily basis and its not just going to disappear because they cant advertise the pups on the org.

I would like to think that a lot of pups and older dogs have found lovely forever homes through the org, which they perhaps might not have found otherwise.  You take that facility away and what happens to the cross breed pups whether they accidental or intentional that owners cant afford to advertise in local papers etc they will be dumped on the street, handed into the police station or worse we only hear about the ones who are saved.

A national spaying and neutering programme for all dogs other than for  registered health checked breeding stock, kept and bred by people who know what they are doing and have passed some kind of board and satisfied the panels questions as to why they wish to breed and that they have the competence to do so responsibily.   This would be no mean feat to implement but its the only way to stop this in my opinion.

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## porshiepoo

Seems to me that people have more of an issue with the lack of health checks of the parents or the crossing of breeds and subsequent ridiculous amounts charged for these 'Designer breeds' than they do with the actual selling of pups in general on here.

I voted No to the question should we ban puppy ads. There are some responsible breeders out there that carry out the health checks and charge what is considered a fair price for their pups, why should these people suffer a .org advertising ban simply because there are dodgy dealers out there? Rather it would be more preferable to regulate the adverts and their content a bit more!
Banning advertising on .org will do absolutely nothing to help prevent backyard breeders breeding any breed to any breed, failing to health check and charging ridiculous amounts to naive, silly people who are stupid enough to fall for the 'designer breed' label. 
There will always be the sellers because there will always be the buyers.

I'd rather see a UK ban on so called 'designer breeds'. People cross all sorts of breeds and make their own names up as to what they are - it's just wrong! and yet people fall for it, they actually believe the patter that is given to them about the rarity of the breed or how sort after it is. No questions are asked about the temperament of this 'rare' breed, they are actually stupid enough to believe / assume that they take on all the good traits of both parents breeds with no worries or concerns about the negative traits and how they're affected by the cross or the health concerns.
I have nothing against Mongrels (as these' designer breeds' actually are) per se. They can make long lived, happy dogs. Especially those that are a real Heinz 57 as the strains of breeds are so diluted but to give them a fancy name and a hefty pricetag...................
In my book if it's recognised by the UK kennel club it's a breed, if it's not then except under special circumstances it ain't worth a jot.

I would also have to say that IMO a reduction in breeding dogs, backyard or professional will not see an increase in dogs rehomed from pounds.

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## achingale

I do not think the ads should be banned simply because it is a choice to be made. None of us have to buy a spaniel/yorkie cross for £450 - I for one would never entertain the idea, nor would I buy a golden doodle, labradoodle etc as they are not true bloodlines. Anything that is a cross should be sold at a low price, but that brings in the issue of who buys it, is the puppy going to a good home etc. There are so many rescue dogs needing a good home, why not look there first and if nothing takes your fancy then go and see about purchasing a puppy. A good breeder will be on hand for any queries for many, many years, not just months, and they will ask how the dog is doing. They will also provide a puppy pack with 4 weeks free insurance, instructions on feeding, toileting, exercise and so on. It is our choice to buy or not to buy.

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## _Ju_

Banning advertising of puppies will not change the way people are breeding them. What will change the way people are breeding them is if people looking to aquire a dog become alot more demanding in terms of what the breeders do to make sure their dogs are healthy. All the necessary health tests will never become mandatory because it will make the animals far to expensive. If they did become mandatory, then there would be an incentive for an illegal "underground puppy market", which would be terrible in terms of animal welfare. 
Making dogs registrable to the breeder is laughable. A dogs life expectancy is for 15 years. What is being asked, by registering to the breeder  ( so they can be returned if found abandoned) is in effect a 15 year guarantee on every puppy. And it removes the prime responsibility from the person who bought the dog who should have known what was entailed in the care of an animal. All dogs should be required to be microchipped.  And searching the electoral role to find owners who abandone their animals should be made possible.  With computers the way they are, it would also be relatively easy to set up a way of signaling owners who are "in the habit" of aquiring dogs to then give them up ( the puppy-for-christmas type), and maybe they could be forbidden to keep animals on welfare grounds ( if the law were to change).
But the biggest incentive to change the habits of breeders are the habits of their clients. If you are looking for a puppy, insist on knowing the parents, or minimum the mother. Never ever remove a puppy from it's mother under 8 weeks of age. No matter that the breeder is telling you the vet said it was ok. Ok does not mean best or even right. Don't buy a puppy if you suspect serial breeding ( people who breed sucessive litters to turn a quick buck). Go ask your vet first when looking for a puppy. They will have an idea of people who have litters and a fair idea of the animals health. It is better to find a breeder that has been reccomended to you by someone you know than through an advertisment. Find out what the genetic potencial for disease is in the breed you want then decide if not health testing is something you are willing to risk. Maybe if enough potential dog owners become more discriminating then there will be less indscriminate breeding.

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## roadbowler

I voted no because do people really need to be policed on this issue? If people aren't responsible enough to make thorough checks on the animals they are buying or wise enough to understand that any animal of any breed has an individual character and may have character or health issues/problems they may find challenging in the animal they are taking on they probably are not responsible enough to have a dog in the first place. I do NOT agree with lifetime guarantees to take dogs back either! You take on a dog, you deal with the dogs issues! What next, I buy a car on the .org and expect a lifetime guarantee for the seller to take it back if things go wrong? In my view, dogs aren't ornaments, they are family members and I'm dead against all this buying fashionable pets then flogging them on when owners canna deal or they aren't flavour of the month anymore. The issue of puppy ads really comes down to peoples responsibility, as been said before it isn't going to stop people trying to sell dogs through other routes or change breeding habits.

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## lindsaymcc

We got our puppy from the Org - but for free. His litter was being rehomed to forever homes - not for monetary gain. 

I dont agree with puppy sales unless they are KC reg/health tested/chipped etc, but I dont see a problem with rehoming a litter for free.

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## Stefan

Does anybody know why puppy sales were banned in the past ?  I remember that they were but never knew why.

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## Tilter

I voted to ban advertising pups for sale.  Definitely.  A good breeder wouldn't need to advertise on the org - he'd have a waiting list for any pups he bred.  Besides, genuinely reputable breeders are so few and far between it would not penalise them, but the 99.9% of breeders irresponsibly producing yet more puppies for money should have to pay to advertise and not get it for free on the org.

I don't care if the org banning puppy ads makes no difference whatsoever.  They should do so on principle.  Lots of forums do not allow advertising the sale of sentient beings and the org should also take the lead in this.

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## Tilter

> Does anybody know why puppy sales were banned in the past ?


Maybe for all the reasons you have mentioned above?

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## Niall Fernie

Puppy sales were banned due to the rules on business advertising at the time.

As we could not distinguish private sellers from breeders we banned them all.

When we decided to soften our rules on business advertising due to the downturn in the economy, we also softened our rules on puppy sales.

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## Tilter

> Puppy sales were banned due to the rules on business advertising at the time.
> As we could not distinguish private sellers from breeders we banned them all.
> When we decided to soften our rules on business advertising due to the downturn in the economy, we also softened our rules on puppy sales.


Niall, many thanks for the explanation.

With all respect, I would say the economic downturn is precisely the reason  puppy sales advertising should be banned on the org.  Because of the economic downturn, far more dogs are coming into rescue kennels to be rehomed and, because kennels are full to bursting and staff and volunteers stretched to the limit, many many more dogs are simply being abandoned.  It is also a fact that puppy sales are down due to the economy and we're seeing more puppies in rescue because their breeders are unable to find buyers for them.

These dogs aren't cars or computers but will hopefully walk this earth for the next 12 or 14 years.  It's up to us what kind of life they have.

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## _Ju_

> Ni
> 
> With all respect, I would say the economic downturn is precisely the reason  puppy sales advertising should be banned on the org.  Because of the economic downturn, far more dogs are coming into rescue kennels to be rehomed and, because kennels are full to bursting and staff and volunteers stretched to the limit, many many more dogs are simply being abandoned.  It is also a fact that puppy sales are down due to the economy and we're seeing more puppies in rescue because their breeders are unable to find buyers for them.


Not being able to to advertise on the org will not slow down breeders. These are litters that are already in existance and will be sold or abandoned no matter what. The one and only thing that will change the way breeders work is that their clients demand more of them and refuse to deal with them when they are not doing what they should. And all these potential puppy clients are too at fault, as they could home a rescue dog instead creating the market for puppies.

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## caithgal

There will always be a demand for puppies no matter what anyone does.  What would put breeders off more is if buyers would only buy from health tested registered dogs.  Or some kind of law meant that you could ONLY sell from a litter that has had all the relevant tests and no other pups could be sold.  This would put off a lot of back yard breeders however im also aware that it would be difficut to enforce but surely something can be done

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## mop top

Well maybe we should all lobby for change and put it to someone in parliment surely if there was enough weight behind a petition then it would be listened to.  No point us all moaning on here and not actually doing anything about it.

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## crustyroll

The original puppy sales were banned as there was a lot of bad feeling going around.. ie, see my for sale advert and you will see what I'm talking about.  This person claims that I'm doing the breed a disservice and yet he can't even read the post correctly!!! 

As far as I'm aware that was one of the reasons the posts were banned.  I had been told that someone requested the posts be banned and it was aimed personally at me.  

I emailed Mr Fernie directly and requested that the ban be lifted and was told that it was a big NO and it wouldn't be lifted at all and I was wasting my time asking. Low and behold a few weeks later, it was lifted without being publicy announced.  I asked that it be lifted as it definately singled out Lab puppies.  Many other pups of a slightly older age were being allowed to be sold, older dogs and other animals were being sold so why should Labs be the only pups not allowed? For everyone's information as Oakley2007 want's to point out, I'm not desperate to sell the last pup and I may already have a buyer lined up and it wasn't through the org.

I just read the bit about not being able to distinguish between private sellers and breeders - none of this was in the email I received about why the ban was put in place.  To be honest it's all just a downright mess and those of us that are doing it responsibly - regardless of what some idiots think - are being lumped in with those that aren't.

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## crustyroll

> Lots of forums do not allow advertising the sale of sentient beings and the org should also take the lead in this.


This should be a blanket ban then on all animals  and of all ages, they are all sentinent beings.

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## Stefan

So why did you fight so hard to have the ban lifted if you don't need to sell through the org after all ?

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## Stefan

I was just thinking what I could do with 450 quid.... that would pay for a lot of food for rescue dogs and I could still get a wonderful lab from the rescue place whilst helping so many others to be fed and looked after....
How much of the money you are getting are you putting back into rescue ?

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## crustyroll

> So why did you fight so hard to have the ban lifted if you don't need to sell through the org after all ?


Why shouldn't I? If everyone else could do it why couldn't I??? Am I meant to just roll over shut my mouth and accept that, sorry, NO. It's just another outlet that someone out there might find the right pup for them.

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## crustyroll

> I was just thinking what I could do with 450 quid.... that would pay for a lot of food for rescue dogs and I could still get a wonderful lab from the rescue place whilst helping so many others to be fed and looked after....
> How much of the money you are getting are you putting back into rescue ?


I could do an awful lot with that money too but again its all down to personal choice.  If you want to go down that route, how many people could feed a dog or two by not buying that extra packet of fags one week????  If you get a wonderful lab from a rescue then you are doing well but I know what I want and it's not they type of Lab that tends to end up in rescue.  That's my choice and some others as well.  Well all the vets bills I pay help with the PDSA, I support the SSPCA and I always take any dog back if need be, so I'm also supporting the rescue's in that they don't have another dog filling it up, okay?

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## crustyroll

> I was just thinking what I could do with 450 quid.


Just thinking... would you be more happy paying £350 for  a puppy rather than £450? Have you stopped to ask why a lot of pups are selling for £350 and I'm charging more???

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## Liz

> I was just thinking what I could do with 450 quid.... that would pay for a lot of food for rescue dogs and I could still get a wonderful lab from the rescue place whilst helping so many others to be fed and looked after....
> How much of the money you are getting are you putting back into rescue ?


Why are you having a go at Crustyroll when she is one of the 'good guys'? 

Whilst I applaud anyone who gives a home to a rescue dog ,there is nothing wrong with buying a dog from a reputable breeder.

I have bought my last three dogs as I wanted a Sheltie and there were none in shelters.

I consider it money well spent as my dog is my best friend and the most wonderful companion I could wish for. I don't smoke, drink or go on holiday and the pleasure he has given me was worth the cost!

I also support animal charities including KWK9 which do a wonderful job rehoming stray and unwanted dogs.

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## Tilter

> This should be a blanket ban then on all animals  and of all ages, they are all sentinent beings.


I was referring to dogs specifically because far too many, especially staffies, are being overbred by irresponsible back yard breeders.  The demand cannot meet the supply and results in thousands of dogs being killed in pounds as a result and hundreds of thousands more ending up in rescue.  I don't know if this holds true for other species so cannot say if I think there should be a ban on advertising their sale.

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## Stefan

> I could do an awful lot with that money too but again its all down to personal choice.  If you want to go down that route, how many people could feed a dog or two by not buying that extra packet of fags one week????


Now, that comparison limps BIG TIME....




> If you get a wonderful lab from a rescue then you are doing well but I know what I want and it's not they type of Lab that tends to end up in rescue.


So you just make more so that more end up in rescue ? Well, at least we all get more to choose from :-(




> Well all the vets bills I pay help with the PDSA


They do ? How ?




> I support the SSPCA


Financially or practically (just asking out of interest) ?




> and I always take any dog back if need be, so I'm also supporting the rescue's in that they don't have another dog filling it up, okay?


and if you take that thought further there would be another dog less in rescue if you weren't selling a puppy and 6 if you weren't selling 6 ... and 20 less .... and so on....

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## mrsC2011

Puppy sales should not be banned but I think that the whole thing on here is that if they are advertised locally then the breeder can keep up to date and visit the pups and make sure that they r just used for pets unless the breeder says other words then the dog could be used for showing or breeding but if there at no papers with the pups then when it is old enough it should be spayed so then u can't make money from them I no someone who had boxer pups this yr and I ws told that it was just for makin money and that they might do it again nxt yr aswell even tho her bitch nearly died after havin to be sectioned but I also no someone who a has labs and she's no made a penny from it as she has done all the health tests and has paper and 4 wks free insurance with the pups and they r so well tempermented it's beautifulMy gsd I have had for 7 yes has been spayed and my new pup will be aswell as I couldn't have any pups as I would want to keep them all We all have our own oppinion but unless the £ of gettin a dog spayed gets lower ( which it won't ) then there will always be pups on the go so it dosent matter if they r foe sale on here or not they will find a way to sell them

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## caithgal

If done properly i.e. with all the heath tests and vet involvement then breeding is pretty much a non profit thing to do.  Breeding for money is just disgusting and really shouldnt be allowed.  Yes mop top i think something has to be done and as you say rightly moaning on here wont change a thing.  Crusty i dont doubt your love and devotion for your animals but i know enough that if the hip score is over the breed standard then you shouldnt breed with the dog - sorry but that is fact x.  I think i may start the ball rolling this morning.  Would the kennel club be the best way to start do you think?

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## GetWithTheTimes

i voted NO to the sale of puppies being banned!

i don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to be sold on here, just because a reputable breeder doesn't need to advertise on here doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to advertise on here. and the comment that someone made about there being too many puppies on sale in proportion to the people is ridiculous caithness is massive and its not just people from caithness that use the site don't be so stupid. and maybe there are so many staffy and staffy crosses because thats the breed people are wanting nowadays because they are so lovable, i got my staffy cross from here and he is gorgeous and so well behaved had him for a good 2 year now its got to be and if it wasn't for the org i wouldn't of got him. pure breeds are nothing but hassle in my opinion and have too many health defects and are bred in such a way as to encourage the defects in some dogs like breathing and heart problems and the list goes on so bring on the muts, and these new designer dogs are just pure breeds that were accidentally bred and given a new name to make money and people paid for them so now they are crossing all sorts of pure breeds to make new designer breeds which have more health problems than pure breeds. if any puppy sales should be banned its the pure breed pups that should be banned because they were bred into health problems and is cruel in my opinion especially little dogs like pugs that were bred to have more and more flattened faces and excess skin resulting in breathing problems, thats the crime not selling puppies on here, this is a community site where you will know where the puppies are going to in most cases and if any problem occurred you could get the puppy back and rehome it. 

oh and if anyone knows itsteven who advertised for the staffy cross for lisa could you tell him or her if you know her to get in touch as i have tried phoning and pm'ing about the dog but to no avail, our neighbour just gave away their dog due to having a kid and my dog is lost without his wee companion to tease with the ball through the fence lol

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## caithgal

> i voted NO to the sale of puppies being banned!
> 
> i don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to be sold on here, just because a reputable breeder doesn't need to advertise on here doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to advertise on here. and the comment that someone made about there being too many puppies on sale in proportion to the people is ridiculous caithness is massive and its not just people from caithness that use the site don't be so stupid. and maybe there are so many staffy and staffy crosses because thats the breed people are wanting nowadays because they are so lovable, i got my staffy cross from here and he is gorgeous and so well behaved had him for a good 2 year now its got to be and if it wasn't for the org i wouldn't of got him. pure breeds are nothing but hassle in my opinion and have too many health defects and are bred in such a way as to encourage the defects in some dogs like breathing and heart problems and the list goes on so bring on the muts, and these new designer dogs are just pure breeds that were accidentally bred and given a new name to make money and people paid for them so now they are crossing all sorts of pure breeds to make new designer breeds which have more health problems than pure breeds. if any puppy sales should be banned its the pure breed pups that should be banned because they were bred into health problems and is cruel in my opinion especially little dogs like pugs that were bred to have more and more flattened faces and excess skin resulting in breathing problems, thats the crime not selling puppies on here, this is a community site where you will know where the puppies are going to in most cases and if any problem occurred you could get the puppy back and rehome it. 
> 
> oh and if anyone knows itsteven who advertised for the staffy cross for lisa could you tell him or her if you know her to get in touch as i have tried phoning and pm'ing about the dog but to no avail, our neighbour just gave away their dog due to having a kid and my dog is lost without his wee companion to tease with the ball through the fence lol


Your ignorance is beyond belief!   The whole point of health testing prior to breeding is to AVOID heallth issues

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## GetWithTheTimes

> Your ignorance is beyond belief!   The whole point of health testing prior to breeding is to AVOID heallth issues


how can you avoid health issues that have been bred into certain breeds of dogs???

your stupidity is beyond belief, there are health issues with lots of breeds and they have been bred that way over a long long time and we are the ones to blame we created the domestic dog and all of its good and bad points there were no domestic dogs to start with they were all wild and we bred them into the dogs you see today including causing health defects in the dogs in attempt to get them to have more folds of skin or shorter legs or flatter faces

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## caithgal

There are also GOOD breeders who breed to get their line back to the correct standard and to AVOID health issues however i guess you just cannot see that.  No health issue or behaviour issue can be avoided completely however by breeding correctly you can begin to eliminate issues

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## GetWithTheTimes

and everyone greeting about the dogs going to shelters and blaming the breeders here's a thought!!!

try lecturing the people that take on the puppies and don't train them and put them in the shelter in the first place, breeders wouldn't breed the dogs if they couldn't give them homes and its not their fault that the new owners give them up, try having a go at the irresponsible owners that get bored and give the dogs up or impulse buy a dog then realize that they cant cope and give them up

and having a go at crustyroll for being a loving caring breeder who clearly loves the dogs he/she breeds and wouldn't see them go to harm just shows how low a lot of the people will stoop on this site just to have an argument i for one hope the narrow minded argument seekers on this site don't get to breed and make more annoying argumentative brats to grow up and turn out like them, you can be assured if you could sell their offspring they would be running at a loss and they would all be in the childrens shelter for sure and nobody would rescue them lol

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## caithgal

> and everyone greeting about the dogs going to shelters and blaming the breeders here's a thought!!!
> 
> try lecturing the people that take on the puppies and don't train them and put them in the shelter in the first place, breeders wouldn't breed the dogs if they couldn't give them homes and its not their fault that the new owners give them up, try having a go at the irresponsible owners that get bored and give the dogs up or impulse buy a dog then realize that they cant cope and give them up
> 
> and having a go at crustyroll for being a loving caring breeder who clearly loves the dogs he/she breeds and wouldn't see them go to harm just shows how low a lot of the people will stoop on this site just to have an argument i for one hope the narrow minded argument seekers on this site don't get to breed and make more annoying argumentative brats to grow up and turn out like them, you can be assured if you could sell their offspring they would be running at a loss and they would all be in the childrens shelter for sure and nobody would rescue them lol


Once again your ignorance shines through. I think crusty is a lovely person i really do and i think she loves her dogs more than anyone can say however the breed guidelines are there for a reason!  Not just pick a number out of thin air.  

Yes there is a lot to be said for good training and the job of the breeder is to give their pup to someone they believe wil look after them and train them.  Unfortunately peoples circumstances do change thats just life and noone can forsee what lies ahead.  Seeing the dam can give prospective owners an idea of how large etc the pup will become and if a breeder is doing their job correctly the family the pup goes to will be more than prepared for when the little cute pup grows into the real thing.

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## crustyroll

> There are also GOOD breeders who breed to get their line back to the correct standard and to AVOID health issues however i guess you just cannot see that.  No health issue or behaviour issue can be avoided completely however by breeding correctly you can begin to eliminate issues


That is why I'm breeding from my bitch with a 'slightly' higher hipscore than the breed 'AVERAGE', remember it's just an average, it's not a line that musn't be crossed.  The whole point of her breeding is to keep the standard and conformation and the Labrador features.  Why throw all that away and breed to a dog that has a score lower than the average and loose some of the features that make it a Lab.  I wouldn't have bred from her if her breeder and the stud dog owner (both who have many more years of experience than the rest of us) didn't think she was worth it or it would be detrimental to her line.  There are no guarantees and you can have a dog with a low hipscore have problems in later life, my girl has had no problems what so ever and neither did my other girl with a higher score. I've sent off the DNA swabs of my other Labs to the Animal Health Trust as they are taking part in the survey they are doing to try and find the gene to blood test for HD rather than having to x-ray them.  It isn't an exact science and just because there is a number it doesn't mean that some dogs should be ruled out from breeding.  Experience must come into it and I'm listening to those that have it.

I'll also add that I haven't made a penny from this breeding.  You could say I've made some money in that I now have a bitch for myself whom I could possibly breed from later on.  My vet bill was over £400, stud fee was £500, petrol to stud dog was £100. I haven't even added up what it has cost to have the washing machine on every day for vet bed and dogs bedding, the extra feeding of the bitch and the puppies, what is the point as I'm not interested in what I've spent or what I'm gaining financially, it's never been about that.  Most breeders sell their pups for at the least the price of the stud fee but I'm not, one, because not everyone that can give a dog a fantastic home can afford some of the prices that the pups are selling for (check out www.champdogs.co.uk) and two, it's a market and if all the prices rise, its going to keep rising and I don't want that either.  I know I've got really good quality puppies and I would not sell them for less, they are worth every penny.

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## caithgal

> That is why I'm breeding from my bitch with a 'slightly' higher hipscore than the breed 'AVERAGE', remember it's just an average, it's not a line that musn't be crossed.  The whole point of her breeding is to keep the standard and conformation and the Labrador features.  Why throw all that away and breed to a dog that has a score lower than the average and loose some of the features that make it a Lab.  I wouldn't have bred from her if her breeder and the stud dog owner (both who have many more years of experience than the rest of us) didn't think she was worth it or it would be detrimental to her line.  There are no guarantees and you can have a dog with a low hipscore have problems in later life, my girl has had no problems what so ever and neither did my other girl with a higher score. I've sent off the DNA swabs of my other Labs to the Animal Health Trust as they are taking part in the survey they are doing to try and find the gene to blood test for HD rather than having to x-ray them.  It isn't an exact science and just because there is a number it doesn't mean that some dogs should be ruled out from breeding.  Experience must come into it and I'm listening to those that have it.


Not knowing much about Labs i will take your word for that.  It is great that you are doing this and are obviously well involved and informed.  for the record crusty i wasnt slagging you off its just the information i was given by many professionals and well educated breeders

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## GetWithTheTimes

You cant expect the breeder to take responsibility for the people who took the pup putting it into a shelter, or blame them because they bred their dogs for puppies, just because the family taking the pup is a nice family and seem loving doesn't mean that the pup is going to be happy there and all will be fine, 3 people i know of have recently given up dogs because they had kids 1 who got the puppy when they were pregnant then gave it up when the kid was born, all of them could of kept their dogs but it was easier to just get rid, they are the reason the shelters are full and people who just take on the puppies and don't want them when they aren't so cute anymore and need more exercise. Appearances and impressions can be deceptive you cant expect a breeder to know that the new owner is going to keep the dog for life and look after it well, and peoples circumstances do change but people are all too quick to just give up the dog than make it work, people use change of circumstance as an excuse to get rid of a dog all too often.

i could go from plenty money to little money or from the country to the city or long hours to little hours it doesn't matter i wouldn't give up my dog unless it was impossible for me to keep him and maybe if more dog owners cared as much about their pets then their wouldn't be so many in shelters

and maybe if the vets wouldn't charge outrageous prices for even the littlest of things more people would do health checks etc... try pointing the finger in their direction also as they are charging ridiculous amounts of money for treatments

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## caithgal

And your argument with me is what???? Folk try to do their best but sometimes it doesnt work out that way.  Yes the vets could decrease their fees but at the end of the day any responsible person who wants a dog should do their homework first.

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## Tilter

> try lecturing the people that take on the puppies and don't train them and put them in the shelter in the first place, breeders wouldn't breed the dogs if they couldn't give them homes and its not their fault that the new owners give them up, try having a go at the irresponsible owners that get bored and give the dogs up or impulse buy a dog then realize that they cant cope and give them up


As has been said before here, a good reputable breeder will always take back a dog he/she has bred if the new owner can't keep it for any reason.  But there are too many irresponsible back yard breeders in it for money who take no interest in the future of the pups they breed.  However, at least when you get a dog from a good rescue you know the adopters will have been screened and homechecked, and the dog matched to the lifestyle of the adopters.  Rescues also take into account many other factors, e.g., breed experience.  Irresponsible breeders take none of this into account when placing a dog.

It should also be remembered that dogs are placed in rescue for many good reasons as well as the fed-up-with-the-dog scenario.  A relationship split or change in the owner's lifestyle  may mean the dog is no longer getting enough exercise or may be being left alone too long, for example, and they deem it kinder to rehome the dog to someone who can better fulfil its needs.  The dog's owner may have died.  The dog's owner, with the best will in the world, may have made a mistake and is seeking to rectify it.  Lots of reasons, not all bad.

So I think you're missing the point.

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## suzywonton123

you see the problem with you people is you have no life -- on here moaning about people selling pups - my staffs are full blood but no papers , this isnt my fault they have no papers - its he way i bought them - what you all should really do is mind your own business - but thats hard for a wicker -- i wouldnt sell a pup to the wrong person incase they mistreat the animal -- yes i agree there are too many staffys with bad owners who throw them into homes when they cant handle what they have taken on , i have had staffs llmy life and nvr given away a dog because i cant be botherd with it -- and i certainly didnt let my dog get pregnant for the money -- my dog caught my girl staff in the last weekof her heat -- it was unintentional -- but to be honest -- i mite jst breed them to get right on your nerves - GET A LIFE --  i love my dogs and would never watch a staff or any other breed being mistreated --- people are scared of what they dont understand -- and if your a wicker , your in everyones business but your own

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## caithgal

Oh well Suzy thats just a grand attitude just whats expected from you so no surprises there

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## _Ju_

> Yes the vets could decrease their fees but at the end of the day any responsible person who wants a dog should do their homework first.


Vets do not work with large margins. The ordinary day to day stuff has to pay for the very expensive equipment demanded by pet owners for when things go wrong. And the equipment is very expensive not only to buy, but to maintain and there is no NHS to buy it for their use. We all expect it to be there when we need it.

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## Tilter

> and i certainly didnt let my dog get pregnant for the money -- my dog caught my girl staff in the last weekof her heat -- it was unintentional --


Perhaps in that case you would consider neutering/spaying?

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## Stefan

> and i certainly didnt let my dog get pregnant for the money -- my dog caught my girl staff in the last weekof her heat -- it was unintentional -- but to be honest -- i mite jst breed them to get right on your nerves -


Gobsmacked.

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## Tilter

Im revisiting this thread because I voted for banning puppy sale ads in Stefans poll (and was in a minority).  I really only see things from the rescue end and I think that makes me too quick to judge, and banning ads would penalise good breeders.  

So Ive changed my mind BUT what I would like to see is the Org having a policy to allow puppy ads as long as breeders:
(1)	have carried out the recommended tests for hereditary defects and are prepared to make available to the buyer the parents hereditary screening certificates; and
(2)	state whether they will give back up advice and support for the lifetime of the pup and whether they will take back the pup if there is a problem.

The Org wouldnt have to do anything other than state their policy, obviously, but it would be seen to be promoting responsible dogbreeding, and would stop the irresponsible breeders peddling their wares (and there do seem to be some gobsmackingly irresponsible breeders on here).

Would something along those lines keep everyone happy?

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## caithgal

Crackeday for me my issue is the non health testing of the parents/pups!  Ok it may have been an accident as they do happen.  But retrospective testing can be done or having your bitch spayed prior to it especially if there is a male dog in the household would be the sensible thing to do.  Like it or not there are proven facts that staffies are the most dog who ends up in kennels or worse so whilst i have issues with non testing thats not specifically in relation to staffies that applies to any breeder who intends/accidentally breeds puppies.  In my own opinion its the least a breeder can do.  A vet can always terminate puppies that are accidentally conceived although im not 100% sure on how far gone the bitch is to dictate whether or not this can be done so there really is no need for any unwanted/accidental pups in this day and age.   Especially with the kennels burstin with staffies as it is.

There are ALWAYS valid reasons for rehoming a dog and there is no reason at all why anyone on the org needs to divulge their personal circumstances.  Im glad the org allows for this to happen

A love of any breed shouldnt be the reason for breeding

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## summer

> i love my dogs and would never watch a staff or any other breed being mistreated --- people are scared of what they dont understand -- and if your a wicker , your in everyones business but your own


I'm sorry but if you choose to breed without blood testing your staffs then you are mistreating the breed.

http://www.aht.org.uk/genetics_l2hga.html

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## sweetpea

> I'm sorry but if you choose to breed without blood testing your staffs then you are mistreating the breed.
> 
> http://www.aht.org.uk/genetics_l2hga.html


Get what your saying summer but unfortunately this wonton stop this person from breeding. Here is the link to their last pup on caithness ads on FBhttp://www.facebook.com/?sk=app_2305272732#!/profile.php?id=1092145618&sk=wall

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## Crackeday

> Get what your saying summer but unfortunately this wonton stop this person from breeding. Here is the link to their last pup on caithness ads on FBhttp://www.facebook.com/?sk=app_2305272732#!/profile.php?id=1092145618&sk=wall


As usual the org clique have spoken, do you get your kicks out of ganging up on people just because you disagree with their view point?
You should be ashamed of yourselves, it is none of your or anybody elses business where or what they may sell and it proves you are "stalking" this orger.
Playground tactics indeed.
I only hope that you dont end up on the receiving end of this horrible type of behaviour.

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## pads1

I havent read all the threads but I dont agree with anyone breeding and there should be a dog license for it, however banning it from the org is not going to stop people breeding for a 'quick buck'

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## Moira

> Puppy sales were banned due to the rules on business advertising at the time.
> 
> As we could not distinguish private sellers from breeders we banned them all.
> 
> When we decided to soften our rules on business advertising due to the downturn in the economy, we also softened our rules on puppy sales.


As a Moderator of the Pets Forum I've moved this thread to Pets Corner so please don't blame the Admin.

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## pepsimax

Whilst I dont disagree with breeding, there should be more laws in place eg both parents should be health tested and puppies should not go to homes until they are 8 week etc.  Personally I could never let my dog (who is KC registered with health tested parents) have puppies as I love her way to much to expose her to any of the risks that go with it.  If you love your dog *what benefit is it to her* to have puppies? although on the other hand I am glad there are responsible breeders out there otherwise I wouldn't have my dog but its not something I would choose to do.

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## Moira

I've not voted on this Poll for obvious reasons.

I disagreed with the Admin's original decision to ban puppy sales and welcomed the relaxation in the rules.

I regret that decision in view of some recent posts.  However I think to ban all puppy sales would drive the problem underground and lead to more puppies being abandoned - or even worse.  As a animal lover that is my worst fear.

I try to move all puppy sales from this forum to the Classified Section when and as I see them.  I then lock the thread.  

You can help me by Reporting any threads I miss by pressing the Report button at the bottom of the post.

Thank you.

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