# General > Politics >  Independance Day parties

## orkneycadian

Anyone got any big celebrations planned for Independence Day at the end of next month?  Might be a job lot of fireworks available from Sydney if you can get them shipped over quickly enough.

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## Gronnuck

> Anyone got any big celebrations planned for Independence Day at the end of next month?  Might be a job lot of fireworks available from Sydney if you can get them shipped over quickly enough.


The end of next month is not the end of Brexit.  You might want to consider it the end of the beginning, the negotiations go on, the end in not inevitable.

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## Shabbychic

Whoopy  Doopy Doo.  :Smile:  :Smile:  :Smile:    The streets of Scotland will be dripping with Union Flag bunting, and the tables laden with good auld British Whisky and British Shortbread. I have already looked oot ma thermal simmet an' drawers.  :Wink:  (might be a bit cauld next month). Then we'll all dance aboot with bells on our knees and waving hankies and wee Union Flags in the air, while Boris sings, from the big screens set up, his version of that well known Proclaimers song.....♪♫♪♪ I will tell 500 lies and I will tell 500 more.♫♪♫♫, and joy will be echoed across the glens.


It will be so much fun, just like all they street parties Scotland has for the Queen's Birthdays and things like that. Ye know the ones?


A cannae wait.

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## Fulmar

Oh dear oh dear. The biggest threat as far as I'm concerned is climate change and for that, we need folk from all over the world to come together not this endless bickering. The next vital meeting is to be held in Glasgow....

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## orkneycadian

Don't worry Fulmar, what you desire is already happening.  By the time of the Glasgow summit, there will be an extra 100 million people on the world who can come together.  And many of them are already risking life and limb to get here.  You'll have plenty people able to come to the Glasgow summit.  It will not be a washout.

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## orkneycadian

> It will be so much fun, just like all they street parties Scotland has for the Queen's Birthdays and things like that. Ye know the ones?


I think I have vaguely heard about them on the 19th of July every year for the last 5 years or so.  But they don't really happen up here.  Its more a Central Belt thing.  

As an aside, why do the folk in the south of Scotland call it the Central Belt, when the actual centre of Scotland is up between Blair Atholl and Dalwhinnie?

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## Alrock

> As an aside, why do the folk in the south of Scotland call it the Central Belt, when the actual centre of Scotland is up between Blair Atholl and Dalwhinnie?


For the same reason that "The North" is actually in the middle I guess.

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## orkneycadian

Surely you don't mean that in Scotland, those in the deep south of Edinburgh and Glasgow don't give a jot about the real North?  God, imagine if we were totally ruled by, say, Hollyrood.  Us up here in the North wouldn't get a look in.  Oh, hang on a minute, that happens already.  https://www.orcadian.co.uk/scottish-...ouncil-leader/

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## Shabbychic

> Surely you don't mean that in Scotland, those in the deep south of Edinburgh and Glasgow don't give a jot about the real North?  God, imagine if we were totally ruled by, say, Hollyrood.  Us up here in the North wouldn't get a look in.  Oh, hang on a minute, that happens already.  https://www.orcadian.co.uk/scottish-...ouncil-leader/


Do you really believe Westminster would do better for us up here in the north? They class the whole of Scotland as North Britain, so I can't really see them giving us special attention.

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## Goodfellers

> Do you really believe Westminster would do better for us up here in the north? They class the whole of Scotland as North Britain, so I can't really see them giving us special attention.


I've only heard Scotland referred to as 'North Britain' twice on this forum......guess who the other poster was?

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## Fulmar

Can I see the evidence for Westminster calling Scotland 'North Britain'? At which debate did this take place?

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## Goodfellers

Shabby....a geography lesson for you (does that sound familiar?) Look at the picture, Scotland is in fact the Northern part of Great Britain

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## Goodfellers

Must ask, how heavy is that chip on your shoulder?

Nice piece written by Prof Adam Tomkins about North Britain (I don't understand why you see this as a slur on Scotland)    https://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpr...ritain-and-me/

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## orkneycadian

> Do you really believe Westminster would do better for us up here in the north? They class the whole of Scotland as North Britain, so I can't really see them giving us special attention.


Well, aside from the above discussion on North Britain, do you really believe Holyrood would do better for us up here in the North?  They already erroneously claim that Edinburgh and Glasgow in the centre of Scotland -  ::  - and probably think that North Scotland starts at Dunblane and ends at Aberfeldy.

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## aqua

Since Thurso and Wick have so much in common, shouldnt they be renamed Caithnesstown North and Caithnesstown East? Or, if either has a remote link to Tomkins, they could be Tomkinstown North and Tomkinstown East.

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## orkneycadian

> Anyone got any big celebrations planned for Independence Day at the end of next month?  Might be a job lot of fireworks available from Sydney if you can get them shipped over quickly enough.


Yay! 24 and a bit hours to go!

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## orkneycadian

Happy Independance Day everyone!

Gonna be a busy one here.  Union Jack underpants already on, but lots of preps to make for later. Aside from all the party food and drinks too look out, we'll better get ready for all the issues that the remoaners have been warning us about. 

Better get the bath filled with water, the torches and candles looked out and do some last minute panic buying of food.  Get to the bank to buy euros and dollars for when the pound falls through the floor at 2301. Get the fuel tanks all filled up, as apparently there will be none by morning.  Check all the clocks are working as once the world stops turning at 2300, we'll need them to know when night stops and day starts. 

A busy day then.

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## Corky Smeek

Like most folk, I am aware that the UK is about to enter the Brexit transition phase which means that nothing much is going to change overnight. This transition is due to end on 31 December 2020 after which time the full impact of Brexit will hit home.

In the meantime the scare stories above, which have been so gloatingly dismissed as the UK leaves the EU, will still be employed to scare people about the prospect of Scotland leaving the UK.

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## Oddquine

> In the meantime the scare stories above, which have been so gloatingly dismissed as the UK leaves the EU, will still be employed to scare people about the prospect of Scotland leaving the UK.


It makes one wonder why, if Scotland has been such a drain on England's resources for the last 300 and odd years, they were so keen to capture us in the first place...and are still so keen to hang onto us now, doesn't it?   If the Union has such benefits for Scotland, you'd think that the supporters of it could come up with some  specific examples of those benefits, wouldn't you?  Six years on from the last indyref, and I still see _nothing_ we get from the Union that we couldn't do for ourselves if we felt that way inclined. 

I also wonder why, if the UK Government and every unionist is so sure that we don't want independence, why not just allow a referendum, to prove it?

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## Corky Smeek

> It makes one wonder why, if Scotland has been such a drain on England's resources for the last 300 and odd years, they were so keen to capture us in the first place...and are still so keen to hang onto us now, doesn't it?   If the Union has such benefits for Scotland, you'd think that the supporters of it could come up with some  specific examples of those benefits, wouldn't you?  Six years on from the last indyref, and I still see _nothing_ we get from the Union that we couldn't do for ourselves if we felt that way inclined. 
> 
> I also wonder why, if the UK Government and every unionist is so sure that we don't want independence, why not just allow a referendum, to prove it?


Superbly put.

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## mi16

because we just had one perhaps

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## orkneycadian

You're a bit early MI16 - The independence occurs this evening at 2300.  After that, seems little point in having any more referendums as we will already be independent.

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## mi16

tru dat....

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## Corky Smeek

This illustrates why so many of us wish Scottish independence.

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## mi16

we are already higher taxed than anywhere else in the UK
The SNP cater for those on the welfare system, the working person foots the bill and is considerably heavier hit than the working person South of the border

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## Goodfellers

> we are already higher taxed than anywhere else in the UK
> The SNP cater for those on the welfare system, the working person foots the bill and is considerably heavier hit than the working person South of the border


Just wait until the Scottish govt take total control of social security payments. DLA/PIP payments alone will bankrupt us if you believe what Jeane Freeman keeps saying....no more assesments, just fill in a form, we trust you to tell the truth!

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## Corky Smeek

> we are already higher taxed than anywhere else in the UK
> The SNP cater for those on the welfare system, the working person foots the bill and is considerably heavier hit than the working person South of the border


I'm sorry but that just isn't true -  _"Most Scots are paying less in the current tax year than in the previous year. The Scottish Government estimates this equates to 99 percent of taxpayers."_ see here.

But even if it was true then I would gladly pay more tax to get Scotland out of this Union.

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## Goodfellers

> I'm sorry but that just isn't true -  _"Most Scots are paying less in the current tax year than in the previous year. The Scottish Government estimates this equates to 99 percent of taxpayers."_ see here.
> 
> But even if it was true then I would gladly pay more tax to get Scotland out of this Union.


Maybe that's because all the higher rate tax payers have moved?

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## Goodfellers

> Maybe that's because all the higher rate tax payers have moved?





> I'm sorry but that just isn't true -  _"Most Scots are paying less in the current tax year than in the previous year. The Scottish Government estimates this equates to 99 percent of taxpayers."_ see here.
> 
> But even if it was true then I would gladly pay more tax to get Scotland out of this Union.


How come you didn't copy & paste the rest of the article?...………

*​*However, when compared to the rest of the UK, many Scots pay more tax. *All those earning more than £27,000 pay more in Scotland*.The Scottish Government estimates that 45 per cent of taxpayers will pay more than their counterparts in the rest of the UK. This means that the majority of those living in Scotland will be taxed the same or less but those earning in the higher tax brackets will be more affected.

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## Corky Smeek

Or, I could have quoted this part:- "*Boris Johnson’s claim that Scotland has the highest taxes anywhere in the UK is misleading. He is accurate that Scotland’s top band tax rates are higher than other UK nations but these affect those earning over £27,000, which the Scottish Government estimates to be around 45 per cent of the country. Scotland also has lower council tax bills due to a nine-year freeze on rates.".

*Overall assessment that Scotland is the highest taxed part of the UK was found to be - _"Mostly False"._

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## mi16

> How come you didn't copy & paste the rest of the article?...………
> 
> *​*However, when compared to the rest of the UK, many Scots pay more tax. *All those earning more than £27,000 pay more in Scotland*.The Scottish Government estimates that 45 per cent of taxpayers will pay more than their counterparts in the rest of the UK. This means that the majority of those living in Scotland will be taxed the same or less but those earning in the higher tax brackets will be more affected.


precisely, the hard working individual pays more in Scotland than RUK to subsidise those on low earnings or no earnings.
The SNP target themselves to the claimant demographic, hence they are so popular with youth, the unemployed and unemployable

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## Goodfellers

The problem is the country needs higher rate tax payers.

 My guess this is why Scotland is depopulating. youngsters go off to university, then consider job options. Now, work in Scotland and pay more tax, or work in England and pay less with probably better prospects...ummm.

So work in England until kids are approaching 16, then move back to Scotland, cynical? Maybe.

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## mi16

> The problem is the country needs higher rate tax payers.
> 
>  My guess this is why Scotland is depopulating. youngsters go off to university, then consider job options. Now, work in Scotland and pay more tax, or work in England and pay less with probably better prospects...ummm.
> 
> So work in England until kids are approaching 16, then move back to Scotland, cynical? Maybe.


the problem is that many folk are better off on the benefit system than they would be in paid employment, this is fundamentally wrong.
No person should be better off sitting at home than they would be out doing a 40 hr week.
This has bred a terrible work ethic in the nation.

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## Corky Smeek

> The problem is the country needs higher rate tax payers.
> 
>  My guess this is why Scotland is depopulating. youngsters go off to university, then consider job options. Now, work in Scotland and pay more tax, or work in England and pay less with probably better prospects...ummm.
> 
> So work in England until kids are approaching 16, then move back to Scotland, cynical? Maybe.


I'd love to see some evidence that Scotland is depopulating. If it is then it is likely to be as a consequence of EU and other foreign nationals leaving because their status is so uncertain as a consequence of Brexit.  As immigration policy is a reserved matter and the UKG dismissed out of hand the SG's proposals for a Scottish Visa there probably isn't much we can do whilst part of the UK.  

Your second assertion is highly debatable as it ignores so many other important factors. Even if Scotland were the highest taxed, which it isn't, the cost of living in those areas of the UK where wealth is concentrated, ie. SE England, is so great it dwarves any supposed higher tax bill in Scotland.  Anyone on average earnings is far better off in Scotland than they would be in London.

Since UKG still controls around 85% of the Scottish economy if there are poorer prospects in Scotland then that is another sad indictment of the Union. 

Of course, moving to Scotland when you become "empty-nesters" is quite common these days. As you get older you are likely to worry more about health care, cost of living, quality of life, crime, etc.  Lots of folk from other parts of the UK are recognising how much better things are up here compared to E, W & NI.. They are right and are very welcome.

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## orkneycadian

> precisely, the hard working individual pays more in Scotland than RUK to subsidise those on low earnings or no earnings.
> The SNP target themselves to the claimant demographic, hence they are so popular with youth, the unemployed and unemployable


Exactly.  The SNP like to think that Scotland will attract employers offering high quality, high paid jobs.  Instead these go elsewhere because of the high tax they would pay if in Scotland, whilst they would get lower tax if these high quality jobs were set up elsewhere in the UK.  So what is created is a low tax, low pay, low skills, low work ethic country.

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## Oddquine

> Just wait until the Scottish govt take total control of social security payments. DLA/PIP payments alone will bankrupt us if you believe what Jeane Freeman keeps saying....no more assesments, just fill in a form, we trust you to tell the truth!


How can it bankrupt us when we are obliged by law to balance the books WE control...and our deficit is wished on us by Westminster?

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## orkneycadian

> Happy Independance Day everyone!
> 
> Gonna be a busy one here.  Union Jack underpants already on, but lots of preps to make for later. Aside from all the party food and drinks too look out, we'll better get ready for all the issues that the remoaners have been warning us about. 
> 
> Better get the bath filled with water, the torches and candles looked out and do some last minute panic buying of food.  Get to the bank to buy euros and dollars for when the pound falls through the floor at 2301. Get the fuel tanks all filled up, as apparently there will be none by morning.  Check all the clocks are working as once the world stops turning at 2300, we'll need them to know when night stops and day starts. 
> 
> A busy day then.


Well, so far, nothing untowards seems to have happened.  The sun seems to have risen, and everyone appears to be alive!  The taps still run, and the hydro is still on.  Even the internet still works!

Ultimate proof will be to go to Tesco later.  If its open (does anyone know when that is?) *and* they have kumquats in stock, then all will be good.  If not, then it will be that bloody Brexit's fault!

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## Goodfellers

> How can it bankrupt us when we are obliged by law to balance the books WE control...and our deficit is wished on us by Westminster?


I wonder what they will do to balance the books? More cuts to public services or raise taxes?

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## Gronnuck

> Of course, moving to Scotland when you become "empty-nesters" is quite common these days. As you get older you are likely to worry more about health care, cost of living, quality of life, crime, etc.  Lots of folk from other parts of the UK are recognising how much better things are up here compared to E, W & NI.. They are right and are very welcome.


In over ten years since I moved to the far north I've noticed a gradual increase in people from England moving here too, mostly 'empty nesters'.  My family in the central belt have noticed increased number of families moving from England too.  The reasons are wide and varied but unfortunately include 'white flight' because of tensions in some of England's northern towns.
Of course there are attractions too; more affordable housing, cheaper child care, no university tuition fees, free prescriptions, free hospital parking (except in two of Scotland's hospitals), which are all attractive to growing families.  The slight increase in income tax more than compensates for the benefits that England doesn't yet enjoy.
I'm fortunate to have friends from Poland, the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany living and working in Scotland.  All of them are disappointed that England chose to leave the the EU and are concerned about the problems that might cause.

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## Goodfellers

Don't forget, over 1,000,000 Scots voted to leave the EU. It wasn't only 'England', I think Wales voted to leave too.

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## Oddquine

> I wonder what they will do to balance the books? More cuts to public services or raise taxes?


Why wouldn't they be able to balance the books, pray tell?  Do you really consider it acceptable that Westminster can dump Welfare  Payments onto the SG, with no extra money to pay for them...just to  stick it to those of us who think Scotland isn't too wee, too poor or  too stupid to be independent and allow people like you to gloat because  they have manipulated devolution to prove you were right all along and we can't manage?   

Seriously.....do you really think they haven't costed out the payments due to be devolved?  

Why do you not assume that they are going to be getting more of Scotland's taxes back to pay for the new responsibilities?  In my naivety, I certainly assumed that the assignation of some of our VAT receipts, the first 10p of the standard rate of VAT receipts and the first 2.5p of the reduced rate, which started the transition in April 2019 and should be in place fully by April 2020 was intended to cover the extra responsibilities being handed over to the SG from April 2020 onwards? But obviously you know better.

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## orkneycadian

> Well, so far, nothing untowards seems to have happened.  The sun seems to have risen, and everyone appears to be alive!  The taps still run, and the hydro is still on.  Even the internet still works!
> 
> Ultimate proof will be to go to Tesco later.  If its open (does anyone know when that is?) *and* they have kumquats in stock, then all will be good.  If not, then it will be that bloody Brexit's fault!


So the prices of foodstuffs imported from the EU are exactly the same in the Co op tonight as they were last night. And the shelves are as full as normal. Where's all the apocalyptic scenes we were promised?

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## mi16

Just have a brexit meal at the park hotel.
Lovely it was

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## Shabbychic

> So the prices of foodstuffs imported from the EU are exactly the same in the Co op tonight as they were last night. And the shelves are as full as normal. Where's all the apocalyptic scenes we were promised?


You do realise that things aren't going to fully kick in till the end of 2020. We are in a transition period at the moment, so we haven't fully left the EU behind just yet. (another fight in an empty hoose scenario here, eh?)

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## Corky Smeek

It takes a very peculiar mindset to gloat over something not happening when it was specifically designed by legislation not to happen and you knew it wasn't going to happen but you thought you would pretend it was going to happen just to allow you to gloat.

Empty hoose, right enough.

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## orkneycadian

> You do realise that things aren't going to fully kick in till the end of 2020. We are in a transition period at the moment, so we haven't fully left the EU behind just yet. (another fight in an empty hoose scenario here, eh?)


Ah, so now the prophecies of doom are being postponed until we see what the trade deal negotiations will bring? Not quite what the earlier predictions were based on then? OK, that's fine. We'll stand down, and be ready for Hogmanay, just in case. 

Wonder what all that folk outside Holyrood were doing on Friday night? Guess they were 11 months too early.

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## Oddquine

Funny really, all this jingoism and gloating, but we are now less sovereign than we were before 11pm last night.....because we are in a transition 11 months, still trying to get the EU to do what they are told to do (ie let us have all the perks without any of the rules) but still have to obey the rules some of us hate (for no real reason) for the next 11 months, _and_ pay money for the privilege, but have no voice at all in the EU Parliament.  

Maybe in the next 11 months Unionists and Brexiteers will understand what life in the UK has been like for Scotland for at least the past decades when we stopped playing the Westminster game of near buggins turn elected dictatorships.

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## Goodfellers

Well written article on the power of the people. Brexit based rather than Scottish independence but may equally apply in the future I suppose.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...7pKcxzqTZquAcM

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## Oddquine

> Well written article on the power of the people. Brexit based rather than Scottish independence but may equally apply in the future I suppose.
> 
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...7pKcxzqTZquAcM


It would maybe be interesting if it wasn't behind a paywall.

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## Goodfellers

That's odd, I didn't pay, just clicked a link sent to me. I'll see if it will let me copy paste content.  See below

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## Goodfellers

Brexit has taught us a lot about ourselves   and that national sovereignty really does matter to the people

As a boy, I used to pore over an illustrated Edwardian book called Battles of the 19th Century. One essay in it, about Waterloo, stays with me. It reprinted the headlines of a contemporary French newspaper reporting Napoleons escape from Elba in 1815 and his subsequent march on Paris.
The first headline was The cannibal has left his den, the second, The Corsican wolf has landed, and so on. As the escapee marched successfully north, the tone of the headlines began to change: Bonaparte is advancing with great rapidity, but he will not set foot inside the walls of Paris. Then it was The Emperor has arrived at Fontainebleau. The last proclaimed: His Imperial Majesty Napoleon entered Paris yesterday, surrounded by his loyal subjects.

On Thursday night, I read out the full list of headlines. The occasion was a merry dinner, skillfully assembled by this papers columnist Allison Pearson, of about 60 journalists, writers, historians, boulevardiers who have consistently argued for Brexit over these long years  the few who had spoken up for the many. We celebrated absentees who had done so much to persuade the British people to vote Leave, such as Guy Verhofstadt and Jean-Claude Juncker. We even had grace from a distinguished Catholic priest, whom I shall not name lest Pope Francis excommunicate him.
My 1815 comparison was with media coverage in Britain from the moment Boris Johnson resigned from Theresa Mays Cabinet in July 2018, through to when he became Prime Minister last July, won the general election in December and accomplished Brexit at 11pm last night. What began as media execration shifted subtly to grudging admiration and, in some quarters, to adulation.
It would have been unkind (though fun) to point out the agonies of those newspapers which have chopped and changed over the period in question or of broadcasters whose reality checks were swiftly overtaken by reality itself. So I refrained. But it is interesting to reflect on what we have learnt  some much more slowly than others  from the process which began when David Cameron called the referendum on our membership of the European Union four years ago this month.
Obviously, we learnt that some claims made by Remainers were untrue. There was no instant economic collapse, no mass exodus, not even a recession. They said that no deal better than Theresa Mays could be obtained and Mr Johnson was the last person capable of getting anything. When, all the same, he did get a better deal, they said that Parliament would not vote in favour of it. All this was wrong.
Yet, over this four-year, bitter though almost completely non-violent civil war, I would argue that it is not really about Brexit that we have learnt much more. Even now, we cannot confidently state when we shall get a trade deal or how good it will be. We may predict Britains success or its humiliation, but neither side can know the truth. Our inability accurately to foresee the eventual outcomes should restrain Leavers from triumphalism and Remainers from suicide.
What we can say is that we have learnt a lot more about ourselves. Despite all the genuine pain, we have learnt something to our advantage.  We have learnt, which we had already suspected, that our elites are in a poor state. Large swathes of them really did think  perhaps think still  that EU membership was a subject too difficult for the mass of voters to understand and therefore to vote on.
Worse, we have learnt that those elite views were held not only by unelected bureaucrats, judges, university professors etc, but also by a large number of people  MPs  who live by the ballot box. If MPs think voters cannot be trusted with deciding under whose authority they should be ruled, do they think the same about voters right to elect them?
The most shocking gap that opened up after the referendum and  even more so  after Theresa Mays botched general election in 2017, was that between voters and Parliament. Eight-four per cent of the voters in that election backed parties (Labour and Conservative) who had promised to get Brexit done. Yet some Tory MPs and most Labour ones then proceeded to try to make Brexit undoable. From this flowed procedural outrages, led by the Speaker, John Bercow, which decided to chuck away our key convention that we must be governed through the House of Commons. Mr Bercow replaced it with the idea that we must be governed by the House of Commons. This quickly meant that the country could barely be governed at all. Hundreds of MP set themselves up as a special caste deliberately unresponsive to the people who elect them, indeed deliberately blocking what those people had decided. This had not happened before in the era of universal suffrage. It seemed briefly as if the parliamentary system which Brexiteers usually extol had broken down.
These were uncomfortable lessons to learn about many of the people who run this country, but happier lessons came from the publics response. Three times after the referendum itself  in the 2017 election, in the European elections of 2019, and in the general election in December  electors had the chance to go back on their original decision. They never did so. Politicians who had tried to frustrate Brexit, most notably every single candidate who had left the Conservatives or Labour in the name of Remain, was punished at the ballot box.
There is little evidence that this was because of increased support for Leave  although Leave held up astonishingly well against the  BBC/Labour/Liberal Democrat/SNP and Green propaganda barrage. It was more because voters showed a clear understanding of their own constitutional function.
If you are asked to decide something by voting, the majority of them seemed to think, your decision must be implemented. When MPs told such voters to vote again  and tried to make it sound nice by calling it a Peoples Vote  the majority of the electorate was not flattered: Weve told you already, they said. Their way of putting a stop to all this was to vote for the Tories last December. It is fascinating that many of the most excluded places in England and Wales (different in Scotland) did this with the most gusto.
Two things follow which will help us from this day forward. The first is that, almost alone in the whole of Europe, a mainstream political party has channelled the growing popular revolt. The oldest, wiliest party in the world  the Conservatives  belatedly but successfully gave a lead. So Britain has not suffered a traumatic collapse of political order.
The second is that 17.4 million voters changed the subject. It had suited European elites for too long to ensure that the main sound in modern politics is the steady tap of the counting house. People like Philip Hammond simply could not believe that people ever vote except for economic reasons. Since the EEC referendum of 1975, the word sovereignty had been pushed to the edge of discourse, declared dead or irrelevant, its loss soothed by a stream of money. This was to conceal the fact that sovereignty does matter and was deliberately being passed away from us to a centralised European power.
The ruled have given the rulers no end of a lesson in our countrys special subject  parliamentary democracy. So now it is much stronger than when that great word Brexit was born.

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## Oddquine

Sorry you had to C&P it, Goodfellers...because it wasn't interesting. It was just another Brexiteer justifying the implementation of an advisory vote without a section 30 order. It will be very interesting to see, if it comes to the crunch, and there is an "advisory" vote on independence with that level of a margin, if the powers-that-be in westminster will be so keen to honour it, given we have even had people on here suggesting that 70% of the registered vote was what would be necessary for independence to prevail. 

The Sovereignty in the UK lies with Parliament...*not* with the government, and Bercow was quite correct to insist that more MPs than the Tory/DUP representatives should have input into that or any decision...particularly in a situation in which the vote was so close and more than a quarter of the registered voters didn't vote at all. King Henry VIII powers have no place in a Parliamentary Sovereignty or, if it comes to that, in any Government which purports to be democratic. 

Unfortunately we are now blessed, in your eyes, or cursed, in mine, with a Government with a majority which can and will allow it to do exactly what it wants, because there is no mechanism to stop them...and a lot of damage can be done to the UK and its citizens in five years.    The UK now is more divided than it has ever been, even more so than at the time of or since the first independence referendum, and under this Tory Government, I see no propect of that division being healed.

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## orkneycadian

> Happy Independance Day everyone!
> 
> Gonna be a busy one here.  Union Jack underpants already on, but lots of preps to make for later. Aside from all the party food and drinks too look out, we'll better get ready for all the issues that the remoaners have been warning us about. 
> 
> Better get the bath filled with water, the torches and candles looked out and do some last minute panic buying of food.  Get to the bank to buy euros and dollars for when the pound falls through the floor at 2301. Get the fuel tanks all filled up, as apparently there will be none by morning.  Check all the clocks are working as once the world stops turning at 2300, we'll need them to know when night stops and day starts. 
> 
> A busy day then.


How ironic that the doomsday predictions that were being jokingly bandied about in relation to us leaving the EU turned out to be more relevant to staying in the EU rather than leaving it. It is after all, freedom of movement that has got us into this mess. Freedom of movement of course applies equally to virii, as it does to people. It's thanks to that that the panic buying actually happened, that the pound took a hit and that rather unpredictably, we find ourselves facing the worst economic depression for 300 years.

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