# General > General >  "You dont have a vote, but you do have a voice"

## ducati

Would you be influenced by friends or family in the rest of the UK? Do you care if the rest of the UK wants Scotland to stay?

My fear is the rest of the UK person in the street is pretty indifferent.

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## Westward

> Would you be influenced by friends or family in the rest of the UK? Do you care if the rest of the UK wants Scotland to stay?
> 
> My fear is the rest of the UK person in the street is pretty indifferent.


I am all for independence, the majority of my family are for it too with the exception of one.
My other half is english but has spent much of his adult life in Scotland and he wants independence too,
he/we have on various occasions touched upon this very subject with our friends and relatives in various parts of england
and either they are indifferent to the entire independence for Scotland or they tell us outright they do not know enough about it
to make comment,

I personally am not fazed by the opinion of anyone against it, I just think they are either afraid to take the step, or they are brainwashed into the 
we cannot manage alone scenario,
this idea, presented yesterday by the good PM (NOT) I thought was pathetic and an insult to the ordinary brain of the average citizen in the uk,

The way I see it is this, some people may not like Alex Salmond..but as he himself has said, why cut of your nose to spite your face" and I do believe him,
Independence, yes, bring it on the sooner the better, because if we stay with the uk..we, the Scottish will damned forever, in the eyes of Westminster and yes
they will make us pay.
Scotland is better than that, the people deserve better than what is proffered by Westminster..the last thing we need is another tory leading us down into hell.

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## RagnarRocks

I do think all this we are afraid of independence is the work of the equivalent of school bullies,do it or we will call you names and say youre a scaredy cat. Its not that people are scared per say they just don't see that anything will be gained except maybe an increase in nationalism and expense.  All this Scotland is dammed,is absolute rubbish on one hand the pro independence lobby tell us how prosperous Scotland is and on the other allegedly we are being impoverished by Westminster. I think the pro independence lobby need to actually back up all the rhetoric with some hard facts so far the white paper is a list of dreams with no hard evidence shown how to achieve them. Lets have a bit less Braveheart and more common sense. The last time Scotland was an independent country was 300yrs ago its not done so badly out of the union so far why change a perfectly good system because a minority can't see how the United Kingdom works together well and keeps us all financially more secure, more able to trade globally and makes the country as a whole a safer more humane place to live. Can you imagine what the country would be like if my Alex Salmomd was allowed to run things, already we see his party tampering with the law trying to remove corroboration, trying to water down freedom of speech. All this from a party people are supposed to trust because Alex says it will be alright on the night. I'm sorry I'm neither brainwashed nor scared I just haven't seen a single shred of definable evidence that shows how long term Scotland will be a better place to live. That's unless I want to vote for some quasi socialist state run by swivelled eyed Marxist without the decency to admit what their true political persuasion is.

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## Westward

> I do think all this we are afraid of independence is the work of the equivalent of school bullies,do it or we will call you names and say youre a scaredy cat. Its not that people are scared per say they just don't see that anything will be gained except maybe an increase in nationalism and expense.  All this Scotland is dammed,is absolute rubbish on one hand the pro independence lobby tell us how prosperous Scotland is and on the other allegedly we are being impoverished by Westminster. I think the pro independence lobby need to actually back up all the rhetoric with some hard facts so far the white paper is a list of dreams with no hard evidence shown how to achieve them. Lets have a bit less Braveheart and more common sense. The last time Scotland was an independent country was 300yrs ago its not done so badly out of the union so far why change a perfectly good system because a minority can't see how the United Kingdom works together well and keeps us all financially more secure, more able to trade globally and makes the country as a whole a safer more humane place to live. Can you imagine what the country would be like if my Alex Salmomd was allowed to run things, already we see his party tampering with the law trying to remove corroboration, trying to water down freedom of speech. All this from a party people are supposed to trust because Alex says it will be alright on the night. I'm sorry I'm neither brainwashed nor scared I just haven't seen a single shred of definable evidence that shows how long term Scotland will be a better place to live. That's unless I want to vote for some quasi socialist state run by swivelled eyed Marxist without the decency to admit what their true political persuasion is.


I am not persuaded, and the common sense kicks in when you tick the yes box,
give the good (not) PM less of our money to throw around...

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## ducati

It's very simple to me. What will we win and what will we lose?

The balance is stuck firmly on the down side as far as I can see.

But the question is do you care what the rest of the UK think? It is important, if they are all pee'd off with us post indy, where is the goodwill and cooperation we will need in all the negotiations that Alex seems to think will be smooth sailing?

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## Southern-Gal

I have mixed feelings about it and dont know what to do when it comes to it. One the one hand the PM has made it very clear he does not want it and I do wonder why if Scotland is such a burden? But then all the other thoughts I have are against the split.
What about future conflict? Would GB look after Scotland or see to herself first? Look at Ireland, there is always friction there. Could it end up like that? What would it mean to all the Scots in England and English in Scotland? It could be very much them and us. anything that is divisive is rarely good.
If Scotland went alone would they be part of EU or would they go against that too? For sure what we do know is the real agenda would come out when its too late. Could it be reversed? How much would it cost? All the supposedly spare funds would likely get swallowed up sorting out new rules regs and laws. 
I have never commented on this before but now the PM has brought up the English/Scottish influence to the fore it has made me think.

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## ducati

> I have mixed feelings about it and dont know what to do when it comes to it. One the one hand the PM has made it very clear he does not want it and I do wonder why if Scotland is such a burden? But then all the other thoughts I have are against the split.
> What about future conflict? Would GB look after Scotland or see to herself first? Look at Ireland, there is always friction there. Could it end up like that? What would it mean to all the Scots in England and English in Scotland? It could be very much them and us. anything that is divisive is rarely good.
> If Scotland went alone would they be part of EU or would they go against that too? For sure what we do know is the real agenda would come out when its too late. Could it be reversed? How much would it cost? All the supposedly spare funds would likely get swallowed up sorting out new rules regs and laws. 
> I have never commented on this before but now the PM has brought up the English/Scottish influence to the fore it has made me think.


This is a worry. Scotland has always been divided. While we can blame the rest of the UK for everything it remains below the surface (mostly). But once that scapegoat is lost, what then?

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## jax

I ideally would like to see Scotland independant. I don't really follow politics as it doesn't interest me but obviously the time to vote is fast approaching. I have not read the white paper, I have heard that Scotland would like to stay in Europe & adopt the euro for its currency. I am not in favour of this. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. If Scotland is to be independent & wants to join Europe, what's the point of independence? May as well stay a part of Britain at least we would have more clout against Europe, after all Britain is only a small island.

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## Southern-Gal

Would independance cause more splits?
Would Shetland and Orkney want independence from Scotland? What if they want to stay with the UK? Would Scotland need its own armed forces or would she simply expect the UK to defend her out of loyalty?

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## Big Gaz

> It's very simple to me. What will we win and what will we lose?
> 
> The balance is stuck firmly on the down side as far as I can see.
> 
> But the question is do you care what the rest of the UK think? It is important, if they are all pee'd off with us post indy, where is the goodwill and cooperation we will need in all the negotiations that Alex seems to think will be smooth sailing?


The goodwill and negotiation will come from the govt, not the rest of the UK and it will be bad for them if they treat the Scottish govt with contempt because it will be to their advantage to stay pally with Eck. There will always be a negative or two for every positive but i really couldn't care less who down south is peed off with us up here. By my reckoning this is payback for all the crap i have had to put up with over the years.

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## Big Gaz

> Would independance cause more splits?
> Would Shetland and Orkney want independence from Scotland? What if they want to stay with the UK? Would Scotland need its own armed forces or would she simply expect the UK to defend her out of loyalty?


Further scaremongering about the Shetland and Orkneys wanting independence is funny. Say Scotland as a whole gets independence and takes the Isles with them. rUK want the isles to come back to them and give them the opportunity. How would that look in the eyes of the rest of the world? England allowing Scotland to divvy itself from the UK yet taking back into the fold the oil producing island parts and leaving Scotland high and dry? What kind of statement would this make to the rest of the world? I don't recall any other country in the world that is separated by another country such as Scotland which would be in the middle of England and the Isles. How long before the Isles realise that the English Govt is sucking them dry just like they claim Scotland would do? Would Cameron (or any future prime minister) continue giving the Isles the pittance it gets now despite them being oil rich? Nah i don't think the Isles would put up with that and go back to the UK if they wanted away from Scotland. If they don't want to be part of Scotland then i think they would be better off going it alone.

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## Tubthumper

It worries me that the 'no' tendency seem happy to use terms like 'fat', 'swivel-eyed' and 'fishface' when discussing politics. Doesn't seem very mature to me.

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## jax

The Islands especially the far I north oil rich area they might want to be truelly independent from Britain. Some of the islanders already class themselves as a separate country or have stronger aliences with say Norway? What would Scotland do then, fight to get them back?

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## Southern-Gal

> Further scaremongering about the Shetland and Orkneys wanting independence is funny. Say Scotland as a whole gets independence and takes the Isles with them. rUK want the isles to come back to them and give them the opportunity. How would that look in the eyes of the rest of the world? England allowing Scotland to divvy itself from the UK yet taking back into the fold the oil producing island parts and leaving Scotland high and dry? What kind of statement would this make to the rest of the world? I don't recall any other country in the world that is separated by another country such as Scotland which would be in the middle of England and the Isles. How long before the Isles realise that the English Govt is sucking them dry just like they claim Scotland would do? Would Cameron (or any future prime minister) continue giving the Isles the pittance it gets now despite them being oil rich? Nah i don't think the Isles would put up with that and go back to the UK if they wanted away from Scotland. If they don't want to be part of Scotland then i think they would be better off going it alone.


No scaremongering intended at all  :Smile: 

Im just typing up the immediate questions that occur to me.
Yes Orkney and Shetland are oil rich. But I do know that a lot of born and bred Orcadians do not consider themselves or their homeland to be Scottish. No idea what Shetlanders think as I have not personally spoken to any of them. On the one hand they are oil rich but on the other they are armed forces and therefore protection poor. There is generally safety in numbers. Maybe they would choose their own independence down the line and if they did how would mainland Scotland manage financially? If the islands decided to go it alone because they did not want the financial burden of mainland Scotland but had lost the protection of the united armed forces we all enjoy the protection of at the moment then maybe we would all be worse off one way or another? Im thinking of all the unrest in other oil rich but divided and warring nations. I dont want to see that in my lifetime. 
Where there is oil money there is greed. Maybe the sooner it runs out the better?

At the moment I am very open to both sides. Feel free to help me decide one way or the other  :Wink:

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## gerry4

> Would independance cause more splits?
> Would Shetland and Orkney want independence from Scotland? What if they want to stay with the UK? Would Scotland need its own armed forces or would she simply expect the UK to defend her out of loyalty?


Don't follow this splits thing?

The Press & Journal did a poll last year & only 5% were in favour of the Northern Isles breaking away. Even if they did would they be like the Isle of man or Channel Isles, crown dependencies? If so they lose the oil as those types of countries only have a 12 mile sea limit. Their police forces is Highland currently & all major health problems are handled by ether Aberdeen hospital or Inverness. Where would they go, Newcastle?

We would have armed forces but a lot less as we would not need them. We would not act as a imperial force as we now do in Iraq & Afghanistan. We would not have nuclear forces and so save a huge amount of money there.

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## RagnarRocks

That might explain those Russian warship incursions just testing the waters see if Scotland would be an easy snag and grab some oil whilst you're at it.

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## ducati

Scotland doesn't need to have splits with the islands. Half hate the other half already. Whether it be along religious or geographical lines, Highlanders and Lowlanders, Catholic and Protestant or merely locals and incomers.  ::

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## ducati

> It worries me that the 'no' tendency seem happy to use terms like 'fat', 'swivel-eyed' and 'fishface' when discussing politics. Doesn't seem very mature to me.


Well if you choose as your leader a Fat, swivel eyed, fishfaced er.. leader what do you expect?  ::

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## jax

> Scotland doesn't need to have splits with the islands. Half hate the other half already. Whether it be along religious or geographical lines, Highlanders and Lowlanders, Catholic and Protestant or merely locals and incomers.


Too true we are a clan nation :-)

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## jax

> Well if you choose as your leader a Fat, swivel eyed, fishfaced er.. leader what do you expect?


We don't really choose the party leader on his good looks we choose the party as a whole :O

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## Westward

> The goodwill and negotiation will come from the govt, not the rest of the UK and it will be bad for them if they treat the Scottish govt with contempt because it will be to their advantage to stay pally with Eck. There will always be a negative or two for every positive but i really couldn't care less who down south is peed off with us up here. By my reckoning this is payback for all the crap i have had to put up with over the years.


Certainly I would agree wholeheartedly with that, all of it.

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## Westward

> Well if you choose as your leader a Fat, swivel eyed, fishfaced er.. leader what do you expect?


That may be your interpretation of the man..but at least he has a vision for Scotland and her people, whereas, the same cannot be claimed on the other gov. leader/s.

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## golach

> That may be your interpretation of the man..but at least he has a vision for Scotland and her people, whereas, the same cannot be claimed on the other gov. leader/s.


He does not have my vision or my vote

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## Southern-Gal

You will all be pleased to know I have had no calls from friends and family down south to ask me to vote either way.
Actually putting forward the idea that people with the right to vote should be pressured from elsewhere is a bit iffy to say the least!  ::

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## Big Gaz

> Actually putting forward the idea that people with the right to vote should be pressured from elsewhere is a bit iffy to say the least!


Not at all, that's what the iffy govt and iffy NO campaign numpties are doing this very minute. Iffy scaremongering and iffy pressurising people into retaining an iffy govt...

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## bekisman

Popping in..(Hi)

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## ducati

> Popping in..(Hi)


Hi beks, how's it going?

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## Southern-Gal

> Not at all, that's what the iffy govt and iffy NO campaign numpties are doing this very minute. Iffy scaremongering and iffy pressurising people into retaining an iffy govt...


You are entitled to your opinion as am I  :Smile: 

Maybe my vote will be worth selling? There are enough people 'passionate' enough to pay for it I should think. Selling a vote to the highest bidder would be no worse than trying to tell someone else how to vote.

http://www.scotreferendum.com/

I am open to either way at the moment. I am looking at the above site to try make an informed choice. Without resorting to insults make your case and convince me that independence will benefit me  :Smile:

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## Big Gaz

> You are entitled to your opinion as am I 
> 
> Without resorting to insults make your case and convince me that independence will benefit me


Kinda difficult to say why it will benefit you precisely but as a whole it would probably benefit the nation. Singling out one person for what the benefit would be is not a good way to weigh up the case for independence nor sway a vote. Many things might benefit me which won't benefit you and vice versa. What i can say is that independence will benefit the NO voters in just the same way as it will benefit the YES voters but if there was a wee box on the ballot paper beside the NO vote that stated "tick here if you want no part of the benefits of independence should it happen" i wonder just how many NO voters would tick it?

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## Southern-Gal

You could turn that around and ask all the yes voters if it happens and things go belly up as a consequence of the yes vote will they take the flak, leave what perks there are left and bail out the no voters? No easy answer!

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## crayola

> Popping in..(Hi)


Well now there's a surprise. Where have you been Beks sweetie? Did you fall down a big hole? Or perhaps you took a wrong turning off the North Highland Way and were bored to death by delusionists?  :Frown:

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## RagnarRocks

> That may be your interpretation of the man..but at least he has a vision for Scotland and her people, whereas, the same cannot be claimed on the other gov. leader/s.


Yes lots of people have visions quite a few get locked up in lunatic asylums especially when they refuse to accept realities. Meanwhile back to the white paper and the answer to all the unanswered questions . It will be negotiated :0))

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## bekisman

Hi Duc & Crayola - sorry just been watching the rugger at Murrayfield (Dear oh dear).. Yes was a bit surprised my original bit on the NHW years ago was resurrected, and met with an untimely death.. but never mind.
I see a LOT of sock-puppets have appeared since I last graced this august forum? Again never mind, takes all types I suppose to pretend to be someone else to make it look like more than oneself to augment ones argument. 

Must stop for refreshment after watching the dismal showing at MF, why, my goodness even the Scots were booing!

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## RagnarRocks

I must say I enjoyed the Rugby sort of like the independence idea. Lots of great ideas lots of potential but distinctly lacking the drive and tenacity to pull it off because of a host of missed opportunities :0)

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## jax

> You are entitled to your opinion as am I Maybe my vote will be worth selling? There are enough people 'passionate' enough to pay for it I should think. Selling a vote to the highest bidder would be no worse than trying to tell someone else how to vote.http://www.scotreferendum.com/I am open to either way at the moment. I am looking at the above site to try make an informed choice. Without resorting to insults make your case and convince me that independence will benefit me


Maybe you should sell your vote on eBay to some patriotic Scot living down south? ;-)

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## jax

> I must say I enjoyed the Rugby sort of like the independence idea. Lots of great ideas lots of potential but distinctly lacking the drive and tenacity to pull it off because of a host of missed opportunities :0)


Ouch....that hurt!

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## gerry4

> He does not have my vision or my vote


Would not really be a democracy if everyone voted for the same party.

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## Southern-Gal

> Maybe you should sell your vote on eBay to some patriotic Scot living down south? ;-)


Never thought of that!
Maybe I will get something out of it after all  :Smile:

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## vanman1

my question is why are the english so desperate to keep hold of scotland

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## Southern-Gal

This is the selling point for the yes people. It has occurred to me too!

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## RagnarRocks

> my question is why are the english so desperate to keep hold of scotland


What makes you think they are

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## vanman1

cameron and his better together , the mans running scared

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## RagnarRocks

> cameron and his better together , the mans running scared


I wouldn't say he's running scared he's just not being drawn into a slanging match with the ECKOr he just has other more pressing issues like the southwest of England under water

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## vanman1

if hes not running scared why his big speech yesterday. if hes not bohered why waste tax payers money on a speech about it

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## golach

I am in a quandary tonight, should I vote yes? Now if Eck the omnipotent will guarantee, that the Scotland Rugby team and Hibernian and dare I say the Tic will play much better than they did today, I would give it a serious option.

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## jax

> if hes not running scared why his big speech yesterday. if hes not bohered why waste tax payers money on a speech about it


The speech was quite a pathetic plea. I'm glad I'm not English or in England

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## golach

> cameron and his better together , the mans running scared


Why should he debate with a minor  politician, Eck is not a Head of State, never see him getting invited to G8 summits, or the like. David Cameron represents the UK

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## RagnarRocks

Also if Scotland does go for independence then the Conservative Party can look forward to winning more elections

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## Bobinovich

Having read a few articles on both HS2 recently I get the feeling that the project is much like independence.

If the Government get their way HS2 will be built at massive cost, but they are so sure that the benefits to the country will outweigh both the cost and any problems encountered, but in reality no-one really knows whether it will be a success until after it is built & has been operating for some time.

Similarly the SNP give the same rhetoric - 'Yes, it's a step in the dark, but trust us and everything will be fine', but no-one really knows what lies beyond a Yes vote...

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## Southern-Gal

> Also if Scotland does go for independence then the Conservative Party can look forward to winning more elections


Why? Is Scotland massively conservative?
The Scottish NHS would surely be short of funds?

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## RagnarRocks

> Why? Is Scotland massively conservative?The Scottish NHS would surely be short of funds?


If you remove Scotland from the equation which tends to be more left of centre then the Conservative Party would win elections unless there is a massive swing from traditional voting trends

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## gerry4

> Why should he debate with a minor  politician, Eck is not a Head of State, never see him getting invited to G8 summits, or the like. David Cameron represents the UK


Cameron is not head of state either, that is the monarch. Neither is Alec Salmond a minor politician, he is the elected head of a nation, Scotland. The leading member of a democratically elected parliament. You may like him or not, that makes no difference to the position he holds. There are many properly elected leaders of nations or heads of states depending on their constitutions that I dislike but I would not denigrate the position they hold.

Can we have a proper discussion without these puerile name calling

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## Southern-Gal

Surely Scotland would have its own elections? So then it would be labour?

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## gerry4

> If you remove Scotland from the equation which tends to be more left of centre then the Conservative Party would win elections unless there is a massive swing from traditional voting trends


They may win more but in the past the Scottish Labour MP's have only enabled one labour government.

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## bekisman

Salmon's a third rate politician, a big fish in a very very  small pond, blinking heck we're not talking world politics here, The voting  population of Scotland is near enough what's carried on the Underground in  London - get things into perspective! Old Boris down in London looks after twice  the population of this country!  

Salmon only got in 'cos folk were jarred off  with Labour for goodness sake.  Last year the Aberdeen Donside by-election, SNP held on, but  with a vastly reduced majority, with a swing to Labour from SNP of 9%, the  Dunfirmline by-election labour took the seat from SNP with a 7% swing, the  recent Cowdenbeath by-election Labour had a 11.25% (!) swing from SNP to Labour.  Duh get the message?, 

All this burble of 'running scared'; absolute nonsense,  considering that the polls are showing the majority of voters up here don't want  indy, are they ALL running scared? AND here we go again yet another bleeding  poll on the org - ain't they aware there's been dozens of these on this site?  most - apart from those who seem to believe a poll on the forum will be more  exact than extensive polls - needs their head examined.
Night...

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## gerry4

> Surely Scotland would have its own elections? So then it would be labour?


Could be but all the 3 UK parties would be freed of Westminster control. I think we would see them all change policies. Hopefully they would change to suit the needs of Scotland & not the SE England as currently. 

Also remember Holyrood has been setup or so they thought that not one party would have a majority. The odds are it would be a coalition government. I am not sure how the SNP would fair in a independent Scotland as some, if not a lot of voters would return to their original parties. They may not though as the polls show the electorate seem to happy with how they are running the country, so they may stay with them.

Hope this helps

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## gerry4

> All this burble of 'running scared'; absolute nonsense,  considering that the polls are showing the majority of voters up here don't want  indy, are they ALL running scared? AND here we go again yet another bleeding  poll on the org - ain't they aware there's been dozens of these on this site?  most - apart from those who seem to believe a poll on the forum will be more  exact than extensive polls - needs their head examined.
> Night...



The last 7 polls have shown a swing to the Yes side. All the pollsters say the result will be very close.

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## vanman1

if cameron is not worried about losing scotland why is he wasting money on speeches about better together. if scotland is such a drain on the uk economy cameron and party would be happy to get rid of scotland

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## RagnarRocks

It really doesn't cost much to make a speech especially if you're prime minister

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## Southern-Gal

http://www.wcrf-uk.org/about_us/medi....php?recid=201

Scotland has high statistics for obesity, alcoholism and drug abuse. I know it goes on elsewhere but the statistics prove there is more of it up here, it cant be denied.
How would it be funded and dealt with? The NHS is currently funded by all the UK tax payers. Are there enough in Scotland paying tax to keep an NHS for Scotland going?
What if it started to collapse?

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## vanman1

westminster give scotland a budget, a pitence of what scotland put in, yet we can freeze council tax, free education etc, yet england have to pay it is the english that will struggle hence the reason why there scared of losing scotland. i rest my case

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## Tubthumper

> http://www.wcrf-uk.org/about_us/medi....php?recid=201Scotland has high statistics for obesity, alcoholism and drug abuse. I know it goes on elsewhere but the statistics prove there is more of it up here, it cant be denied.


 We've achieved these stats under Westminster. Will we be able to maintain them under our own steam? ?

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## Big Gaz

> I am in a quandary tonight, should I vote yes? Now if Eck the omnipotent will guarantee, that the Scotland Rugby team and Hibernian and dare I say the Tic will play much better than they did today, I would give it a serious option.


OH! i nearly choked on my beer then!! The NO CHANCE Golach himself now having a wee sway to himself! Crivvens and jings almighty!.....go on, Vote YES, you know you want to!

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## jax

Its a postcode lottery already for NHS treatment, I don't imagine independence would hamper peoples ability to move & choose where the best place live to suit their needs North or South of the border.

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## golach

> OH! i nearly choked on my beer then!! The NO CHANCE Golach himself now having a wee sway to himself! Crivvens and jings almighty!.....go on, Vote YES, you know you want to!


Am I being ludicrous or not? Eck and his promises are in the same league, he promises us the Earth, but can he bring all his guaruntees to fruition?

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## gerry4

> Am I being ludicrous or not? Eck and his promises are in the same league, he promises us the Earth, but can he bring all his guaruntees to fruition?


Why should it be 'Eck' who is FM. In 2016 we don't know which party would be running a independent Scotland or in 2021. What we do know is the the people living in Scotland would of voted them in.

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## ducati

It doesn't say much for a Scottish education the number of times I see 'would of' instead of 'would have' on here. Presumably the teachers did their job but the perpetrators refuse to learn?

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## ducati

> We've achieved these stats under Westminster. Will we be able to maintain them under our own steam? ?


Certain things are, even now, completely in the hands of the Scots. ::

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## squidge

There was an interesting series of articles in the Financial Times this week about Scottish Independence. I will find them and link to them for anyone who is interested in reading them.

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## Southern-Gal

> Its a postcode lottery already for NHS treatment, I don't imagine independence would hamper peoples ability to move & choose where the best place live to suit their needs North or South of the border.


But if half the population is either too big to work, too ill to work, too drunk or too drugged up it could end up not mattering where you live north of the border as a Scottish NHS would simply be too stretched to cope. Fine for a while until what is left of the oil is gone but what then? As a nation the Scots have totted up dire health statistics, it is a well known fact. The NHS is surely propping up Scotland in this respect? Im not meaning Caithness, the whole of Scotland  :Smile:

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## jax

> But if half the population is either too big to work, too ill to work, too drunk or too drugged up it could end up not mattering where you live north of the border as a Scottish NHS would simply be too stretched to cope. Fine for a while until what is left of the oil is gone but what then? As a nation the Scots have totted up dire health statistics, it is a well known fact. The NHS is surely propping up Scotland in this respect? Im not meaning Caithness, the whole of Scotland


I'm sure NHS in Scotland is well aware of its lardy, ill, drunk, druggy burdens your implys not mine. If the health service would collapse because of these issues, then your vote would surely be swayed towards a no vote.

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## jax

> There was an interesting series of articles in the Financial Times this week about Scottish Independence. I will find them and link to them for anyone who is interested in reading them.


Yes I would be interested in reading

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## jax

> It doesn't say much for a Scottish education the number of times I see 'would of' instead of 'would have' on here. Presumably the teachers did their job but the perpetrators refuse to learn?


Oh dear......I didn't realize it wiz a test

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## Southern-Gal

> I'm sure NHS in Scotland is well aware of its lardy, ill, drunk, druggy burdens your implys not mine. If the health service would collapse because of these issues, then your vote would surely be swayed towards a no vote.


No definitely not my words or implications. Yours  :Smile: 

This potential problem does not appear to be acknowledged or addressed in the white paper. If this is the case then yes my vote would be a no.
Please feel free to put me straight on this. 
Where is it dealt with in the white paper?

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## squidge

Not content with too fat too lazy and too sick to succeed as an independent country Ducati had now added too stupid. It always surprises me that people fo not know that Scots language has its own rules, spelling grammar and words,

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## Southern-Gal

The white paper has been written by the pro independence people. If how the NHS is going to cope is not covered in it then it does make me wonder if this is because they simply dont know.

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## Kenn

I am still waiting for some figures that show how an independent Scotland would be financed.
I would like to know how a country with an aging population is going to be able to support it's self.
I would like to know how it will be able to borrow monies and at what sort of percentages when it will have a zero credit rating unless it can be agreed to keep sterling.
I would like to know in the event that sterling is agreed, what was the point of the whole exercise as The Bank of England will ultimately control matters fiscal.
I would like to know what will happen to The British Army, Navy and Air Force bases and the servicemen and civilians who are currently employed there and the local economies that rely on such.
I could carry on with the list all day, but I won't.
If any one comes up with Oil/gas revenues I will have to laugh, they are an unknown quantity and who knows where the world markets will go? This means that they cannot be factored in to any budget but would act only as a bonus pot.

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## ducati

> Oh dear......I didn't realize it wiz a test


No it isn't, and I am as guilty of the odd spello and typo as anyone else. However, if this very simple thing that would be very easy to learn correctly is not addressed in the very early stages of learning to read and write, then what else is the education system failing in?

----------


## ducati

> Not content with too fat too lazy and too sick to succeed as an independent country Ducati had now added too stupid. It always surprises me that people fo not know that Scots language has its own rules, spelling grammar and words,


Excuse me, I've lived in Scotland for more than 20 years. I think you will find English is English regardless of your use of the local dialect. I didn't accuse anyone of stupidity, if you took that from what I said then that is your problem. I was commenting on the education system. 

I speak in a (fading) Manchester accent but I wasn't taught to write in it! (madferret madferret).

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## golach

> I am still waiting for some figures that show how an independent Scotland would be financed.I would like to know how a country with an aging population is going to be able to support it's self.I would like to know how it will be able to borrow monies and at what sort of percentages when it will have a zero credit rating unless it can be agreed to keep sterling.I would like to know in the event that sterling is agreed, what was the point of the whole exercise as The Bank of England will ultimately control matters fiscal.I would like to know what will happen to The British Army, Navy and Air Force bases and the servicemen and civilians who are currently employed there and the local economies that rely on such.I could carry on with the list all day, but I won't.If any one comes up with Oil/gas revenues I will have to laugh, they are an unknown quantity and who knows where the world markets will go? This means that they cannot be factored in to any budget but would act only as a bonus pot.


That's most of the questions I would like a positive answer from oor first haggis on these subjects, but no all he is bothered about is to have an argument with our Prime Minister, but answers to the former questions he says nothing, is oor Eck  the fearty?

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## bekisman

Scenario, 
2014 Scotland votes for and gets independence
2015 UK votes in elections (MP's up here with 59 seats in  Westminster) maybe a Tory victory - but does not matter.
2016 24th March Elections in Scotland, and with present swing  away from Nats looks like Labour in Holyrood which results in the SNP being  consigned to history with the Scottish Labour parliament desperately trying to  deal with something they never wanted in the first place. And there slinks away  Salmond, a big smile on his face with the historical knowledge that he bought  Freedom from under the English heel.
25th March 2016 Parliament dissolved in Westminster. 59  Scottish seats no longer exists.
2016 New Parliamentary elections in England, Wales N.Ireland.  with 59 labour seats gone will result in permanent Tory Government in  Westminster.
With the 'fishy pair' Salmond and Sturgeon (Scotland) calling  Westminster - the Tories especially - all manner of names and seething with  contempt, then I very much doubt if Tory Westminster will give a hoot about  Scotland. 
Because of the truculence and the damage that WILL be done to  the UK. Whispers are that Scotland will be on it's own. Lets face it Scotland  will hope to be an independent country. Currency union?. Nope. Mark Carney says it 'might' work but even he says Scotland will NOT be  a Sovereign nation. But it's not up to him, it's up to the Tory Government,  _"Please sir can we have a currency union, so that if it all goes pair shaped  we can be bailed out by you"_ - yea right, in your dreams!.  
Go and get the Euro and get bailed out by that  lot, leave us alone - you asked for independence, so stop hanging onto our  petticoat tails.
Bit of FT:   Professor  Nick Bosanquet of Imperial College said: “There would be great concern that a  notably stable group (Scotland) in the UK had taken leave of its senses. Such a  vote would leave the UK on the edge of a new spiral of falling  confidence.” Prof Bosanquet echoed the thoughts of several respondents who said a yes vote  would raise concerns about the UK’s referendum on EU membership. “This  uncertainty would be the biggest threat to UK economic stability. The Yes vote  would be a disaster for the UK as a whole not just for Scotland,” he said.
 A government adviser put it in similarly bleak terms. “It would be a  catastrophe,” he said.
 Twenty seven respondents believed independence would hurt the Scottish  economy and the rest of the UK. Just four thought a yes vote would have a  positive impact.

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## crayola

It's good to see you back Beks sweetie. And even better to see you haven't lost any of your forthright attitude in the intervening years.  :Smile:

----------


## squidge

> Excuse me, I've lived in Scotland for more than 20 years. I think you will find English is English regardless of your use of the local dialect. I didn't accuse anyone of stupidity, if you took that from what I said then that is your problem. I was commenting on the education system. I speak in a (fading) Manchester accent but I wasn't taught to write in it! (madferret madferret).


Scots is not a dialect it is a language in its own right with its own rules of grammar. Manchester - whether fading or not- and lancashire which I work hard to maintain well enough to stand up a recite at our Burns party - are dialects and not a language in their own right.

----------


## jax

> No definitely not my words or implications. Yours This potential problem does not appear to be acknowledged or addressed in the white paper. If this is the case then yes my vote would be a no.Please feel free to put me straight on this. Where is it dealt with in the white paper?


I do apologize if I have miss interpreted your words of, " half the population is either, too big, too I'll, too drunk, too drugged up" your words not mine. Could you please explain your meaning of this?

----------


## ducati

> Scots is not a dialect it is a language in its own right with its own rules of grammar. Manchester - whether fading or not- and lancashire which I work hard to maintain well enough to stand up a recite at our Burns party - are dialects and not a language in their own right.


It's made up of hundreds of dialects. But it doesn't change the fact that the original error I pointed out is just wrong.

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## jax

> It's made up of hundreds of dialects. But it doesn't change the fact that the original error I pointed out is just wrong.


If it was an English exam paper I would agree, but this is a general forum. Picking up on gramatical errors is a wee bit extreme.

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## ducati

> If it was an English exam paper I would agree, but this is a general forum. Picking up on gramatical errors is a wee bit extreme.


In the context of praising education it was perfectly valid. If you don't like it tough!

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## bekisman

(Thanks Crayola..)

I think *Southern-Gal* was thinking along these lines?

a)Scotland has the second highest obesity levels in the  developed world, 
b)Scotland has the highest e.coli rate in the  world
c)Scotland remains the only part of the UK where lung cancer is the  most common cancer, 
d)Lung cancer incidence rates in Scotland are among the  highest in the world
e)Scottish deaths due to liver disease are among the  highest in Europe

f) Alcohol is still killing the equivalent of 20 people a week  in Scotland, and death rates are still twice what they were in the 1980s and  higher than in England and Wales.
(g) The researchers identified the five key factors which  contribute most to ill health in richer countries: smoking, excessive drinking,  poor diet, physical inactivity and obesity.The report stated that a shocking 97%  of Scots had one or more of the risk factors. 55% had three or more whilst a  staggering 20% had either four or all five factors.
h)Worryingly Scotland has one of the  fastest growing chronic liver disease and cirrhosis death rates in the world and  women in Scotland are as likely to die of liver cirrhosis as men in  England.
j)Scotland has  the highest mouth cancer rates in the whole of the  UK.
k)Scotland's reputation for having the poorest eating habits in the UK  has been backed up by new research.
l)Compared with England, the UK's other nations eat more  calories and fat and less fruit and veg, and Scotland has the worst diet of  all.
m)British Heart Foundation data shows Scots  men and women still have the highest heart disease death rates in the  UK

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## Tubthumper

We won't have to worry about pension shortfalls then will we? If everyone dies early we'll be better off than the rUK- they're always greeting about the impending pension implosion.

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## ducati

> We won't have to worry about pension shortfalls then will we? If everyone dies early we'll be better off than the rUK- they're always greeting about the impending pension implosion.


Ah that's Tubs. Always look on the bright side (Hey! I feel a song coming on).

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## Southern-Gal

> (Thanks Crayola..)
> 
> I think *Southern-Gal* was thinking along these lines?
> 
> a)Scotland has the second highest obesity levels in the  developed world, 
> b)Scotland has the highest e.coli rate in the  world
> c)Scotland remains the only part of the UK where lung cancer is the  most common cancer, 
> d)Lung cancer incidence rates in Scotland are among the  highest in the world
> e)Scottish deaths due to liver disease are among the  highest in Europe
> ...



This is indeed what I meant, thank you.
If the NHS is already stretched with more workers then how is a Scottish NHS going to cope with more liabilities and less contributors?

Caithness is not bad on the whole for health problems compared to some of the busier places such as Glasgow but the Scottish NHS would be looking after all of Scotland and it would be expensive. 
I blame the Scottish government, healthy eating education must have been neglected. If you eat seven good sized portions of fruit and veg every day plus healthy protein I find there is not much room for junk and if there is its not too much.

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## Big Gaz

Quick note on the Scottish NHS.

A lass from Thurso who is pregnant and had a minor issue with a possible early delivery was taken to Aberdeen the other day. They couldn't handle her situation so they transferred her to....believe it or not....PAISLEY! where there is just one bed and it is the only hospital that has a single bed available in the WHOLE OF SCOTLAND at this moment that can handle her situation.

What's the crack when there are 2 perfectly good hospitals in Caithness and you have to bypass them both AND travel nigh on 300 miles to get help?

Whats it  going to be like if independence does happen?

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## RagnarRocks

Mustn't forget the High Levels of MS up here as well just to make things a little happier.

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## Southern-Gal

Maybe half the staff in the hospitals in between were off 'sick'. Sickness is one of the worst wastes of money in the NHS nationally. The statistics would likely be worse if they analysed just the sickness of NHS staff in Scotland. It is certainly worse up here from what I have seen.
The pro independence people think things will improve.
The anti independence people think it will go down hill. 
There is only one way to find out but I dont want to be a guinea pig any more than I have been in the past.
I would like to see some plans/figures/budgets for the Scottish NHS post independence.

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## jax

> In the context of praising education it was perfectly valid. If you don't like it tough!


More like tough for yourself since the errors irk you, as the people making the errors are blissfully unaware or simply don't care

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## squidge

Southern-Gal the rest of the UK are NOT supporting, paying for or otherwise subsidising Scotland's NHS. The NHS is already independent of the rest of the UK.  At its inception there was never a UK wide NHS each part of the UK had its own NHS - England Scotland Ireland and Wales. Scotland - so far has been able to prevent the NHS here going down the route of privatisation that has been followed in England.  The Scottish Government has ringfenced the budget. 

Southern - Gal asks how we will manage to afford the NHS if Scotland is independent - well pretty much as we do now, however there are a few bits of information worth knowing.  The NHS is funded now by scottish taxpayers money which goes to the treasury and part of which comes back to the Scottish Government through the Barnett formula.  This is based on how much is being spent in England on their NHS.  So simplistically - The ENglish NHS costs £100 and Scotlands population share is 10% so Scotland gets £10. However the work that Westminster have done on privatising and cutting costs and services mean that England is now spending £80 on Their NHS.  Scotland doesnt want to take the route that england has done and has no desire to privatie or hive off services but Scotland now only gets £8 to spend on its NHS.  We currently manage to maintain funding the NHS by making cuts elsewhere - Amalgamating Police forces, closing other services. With Independence we could choose how to spend ALL the money we get.  We would be free to identify our own priorities and to find money to address some of the issues that Bekisman talks about in the post he made.  

Where would we find money from to do this?  Well - lets see, we wont be funding trident from Scottish Taxpayers money, we wont be spendig Scottish Taxpayers money on London Sewers or High Speed Rail links - that alone would free up millions of pounds to allow us to idetify and prioritise health, hospitals, maternity services, or other things. We wont have to find £50million to mitigate the effects of the Bedroom tax because we wont have the bedroom tax.  We would be saving over a billion pounds on defence spending - that money can go back into the pot to be spent on the priorities which the Scottish electorate chooses when we vote in our Government.

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## squidge

> I am still waiting for some figures that show how an independent Scotland would be financed.
> I would like to know how a country with an aging population is going to be able to support it's self.


Every country has an aging population. Scotland would encourage immigration - we NEED immigrants to work here and pay into the system to support the economy - Westminsters policy of Cutting immigration is damaging Scotland and we have no choice just now but to do what we are told -even though it is not what Scotland needs.  In an independent Scotland we would have an immigration policy which meets our needs for the future. The introduction of more affordable childcare would help parents return to work and therefore contribute to the economy - helping to fund our own future.  Despite the tongue in cheek remarks that we dont live as long therefor pensions are cheaper - that is actually true. Independence would give Scotland the opportunity to tackle the health issues which Scotland faces and to deveop a programme of investment and growth and welfare policy which actually moves people into work so that they pay into the system and help to afford the cost of pensions. We dont have that now. 





> I would like to know how it will be able to borrow monies and at what sort of percentages when it will have a zero credit rating unless it can be agreed to keep sterling.


 You cant hope to know the rate of borrowing now for 2016 however it is unlikely that Scotland will have a zero credit rating.  Scotland's Government has balanced a budget for the last few years; An independent Scotland is likely to be in the top 35 countries exporting goods around the world;Scotland's GDP with oil is as big as France and without as big as Italy;Scotland is not a country with nothing, doing nothing and being nothing ( although you might be forgiven for thinking that by reading some of the stuff that appears on this board).  Scotland would also grow and develop - no one is suggesting that Scotland couldnt succeed so the credit rating that Scotland has on day one of independence is not likely to remain the one that Scotland has oe, three, or five years later. 





> I would like to know in the event that sterling is agreed, what was the point of the whole exercise as The Bank of England will ultimately control matters fiscal.


You know that I would prefer Scotland to have its own currency. However the FT pointed out that there are disagreements between experts on this and that Prof Jim Mirrlees and his colleagues, argue that a currency union would require only a joint sustainability agreement between London and Edinburgh. Some in the SNP accept that currency union might involve much greater  limits to fiscal policy freedom, but say it would still leave an  independent Scotland with far more control over its economic destiny  than possible as a devolved part of the UK.  Mark Carney pointed out that it may mean Scotland has less control than it would like  - but it has to be said that this it would still be more control than it has now. Mr Carney also went onto say that this is a matter for the Two governments to negotiate and the Bank of England would do whatever they are told.  





> I would like to know what will happen to The British Army, Navy and Air Force bases and the servicemen and civilians who are currently employed there and the local economies that rely on such.


 The plan is for a Scottish Defence Force. An independent Scotlands military forces would include four  frigates, 20,000 personnel and 16 fast jet Typhoons, according to the  white paper.The white paper shows that a Scottish Defence  Force will cost £2.5 billion a year and will be built up in three  stages over the decade following the creation of an independent state.The Air Force part will be based at lossiemouth. The naval part will be based at faslane. There is also the fact that Scotland will be entitled to a share of the assets of the Uk and they will form part of the start up of a Scottish Defence force. There is a piece out just today which talks about that http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...laim-1-3299615.  Its worth pointing out that Scotland currently contributes £3.3 billion to the defence budget and that currently less than £2 billion is spent in Scotland. 





> If any one comes up with Oil/gas revenues I will have to laugh, they are an unknown quantity and who knows where the world markets will go? This means that they cannot be factored in to any budget but would act only as a bonus pot.


 You cant ignore them either - this suggestion that Somehow oil and gas revenues are worthless is a bit baffling - no one - not even the gloomiest forecasters suggest that oil and gas will be worth nothing.  Having oil and gas will bring in revenue - and the official SNP forecasts take the mid point of all the forecasts.  There is still investment and there is still oil to be had.  

There is no doubt that Scotland can be a prosperous country and that we have the potential to do very well indeed.  There are answers - you have to look for them and then research them and make your own mind up based on the things that are important to you.  That's all you can do. For me - the fact that in an Independent Scotland the money raised in Scotland would be spent by a Scottish Government on priorities decided by the Scottish Electorate is enough.  We do not have that now.

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## squidge

The FT articles are here 

http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/2014...-independence/ 

You might need to register but yu can do so and read eight articles for free.  Thats what I did.

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## squidge

> (Thanks Crayola..)
> 
> I think *Southern-Gal* was thinking along these lines?
> 
> a)Scotland has the second highest obesity levels in the  developed world, 
> b)Scotland has the highest e.coli rate in the  world
> c)Scotland remains the only part of the UK where lung cancer is the  most common cancer, 
> d)Lung cancer incidence rates in Scotland are among the  highest in the world
> e)Scottish deaths due to liver disease are among the  highest in Europe
> ...



And as this situation has arisen whilst Scotland is part of the Uk, why do you cite it as a reasons to STAY part of the UK? Health inequalities are inextricably linked to poverty and deprivation. Scotland has suffered over the last fifty years from underinvestment and destruction of traditional industries with insufficient emphasis on investment and growth. This situation has been years in the making and will take years to turn round. There is no hope of tackling these issues whilst the Bedroom tax continues to suck money out of the public finances, whilst welfare cuts target the poorest and most vulnerable leaving thousands to rely on foodbanks - how much fresh fruit and veg do you think those people relaying on food parcels get? Whilst this government in Westminster cares not one iota that its policies leave many many people without any money at all because they remove people's right to appeal, they force upon people a "reconsideration", they increase the number of sanctions in glasgow by 400% - but there are no targets for sanctions says Ian Duncan Smith. Aye..... Right.

Bekisman you think these issues are a reason for staying in the union???? These are the most pertinent reasons for voting for Independence - with independence Scotland will have - for the first time - the opportunity to prioritise health inequalities and build a coherent policy of growth, welfare,housing, taxation and health that will have at its heart the drive to improve the lives of all those people you mention in the list.  We do not have that option now and without it we can only tinker around the edges with the like of the minimum price bill and the smoking ban.

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## vanman1

strange no one come up with an answer as to why the english are so desperate to hold on to scotland, also be good to know how many people posting on this forum and anti-independant are english. am scottish and will be voting yes

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## RagnarRocks

So we go down squidges route and bring in more immigrants, well that's border posts between Scotland and the rest of the UK due to large differences in immigration policy. The reason Scotland eats unhealthy is because it wants to remember this is the country that invented the deep fried mars bar, you can go to other deprived areas and won't see the levels of obesity. The currency by no way guaranteed and the currency union seems more unlikely the Euro may well happen if you join Europe and accept all the rules.

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## squidge

Ireland and Britain have different Immigration Policies and there are no border posts between Ireland and Britain. It actually doesnt need to be large differences. Just the right differences. The UK is currently denying visas to people who have lived and worked here for years. Its cruel and counterproductive. Scotland may be the home of the deep fried Mars bar Ragnar but it also has some of the finest food in the world. Beef, fish, cheese, fruit - the shame should be that so many people cant afford even decent food never mind the best Scotland has to offer. As for the Euro, that is not an option for Scotland just now. You have to wait several years to join the Euro. However, at least if Scotland decided to join the Euro at some point in the Future then it would be a decision made by the people living here and not foisted on Scotland as a policy none of its MPs voted for, like the bedroom tax or the royal mail privatisation.

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## RagnarRocks

Ireland and GB have very similar immigration policies hence the lack of need for a border. I haven't seen  here that an Independent Scotland would have a referendum on joining Europe so not sure where you get the statement the people would make a choice from. As for the food yes Scotland does produce fantastic food but that doesn't mean anything I put it more down to the people choosing not to eat a healthy diet you seem to have ignored the fact the in many other countries and parts of this country suffer the same if not worse poverty but don't end up obese. obesity for all the pc excuses made is the basic inability to stop cramming calories into greedy mouths and nothing else. Genuinely poor can't afford to eat the amount of calories it takes to get obese. Its very easy to quote a few cases of denied or refused visas instead of the vast majority which are refused for perfectly valid reasons .

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## ducati

> More like tough for yourself since the errors irk you, as the people making the errors are blissfully unaware or simply don't care


Well if a simple observation (perfectly valid) is giving you an attack of the vapours, you need to pace yourself. Some of my 'observations' over the next 7 months are going to give you apoplexy.

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## Southern-Gal

You present a good case Squidge  :Smile: 

Vanman I too would like to know the answer to the only question you ask. I am English but dont yet know which way I will vote but do know that my decision will be well thought out and not simply a knee jerk reaction to my origins or worse.

A good reason for the PM wanting to keep us all united has got to be to present a united appearance to the rest of the world for the sake of world trade. Remember a lack of confidence from buyers would affect Scotland as much as it would England. Both countries would have to start from square one to establish their own trading history and trust.

Ireland is a poorer place to live than over here. Living standards are lower and women are in a lot of areas still treated like we were fifty years ago, they have much less protection from the Police against domestic violence for instance. There is less work available, this makes it much less attractive to immigrants. It also has some protection against unregulated immigration by the fact that it is surrounded by water. 
If Scotland opened its doors to more immigrants than England I wonder what the results would be long term?

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## ducati

> also be good to know how many people posting on this forum and anti-independant are english. am scottish and will be voting yes


Why? The vote is for the residents of Scotland. When the vote is no are you going to blame the English? What about the Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, Polish, Welsh, Irish, and all the other races and nationalities represented by the residents of Scotland?

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## RagnarRocks

Oh Ducati ! independence will only lead to them arguing with each other again. They've been waiting a while to start the Clan( Tribal ) wars again its any excuse to disagree with each other and have a fight with someone then blame it on everyone but themselves

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## jax

Squidge, thank you, you have posted some very helpful information.I'm not in favour of more emigration to help support the country, I would like to see our own population trained &  fittened into jobs. I'm sure I read somewhere that the metobolisim of Scottish bred folks is different to other races. Pale skin to absorb vitamin D from the sun, the need to eat high fat food because of the cold & hard work. Is it not that the availabiy of more plentiful food & good welfare system has contibuted to an overweight population in some cases. I know this is not excuse really for fillings ones face excessively but there is many contributing factors, as also mention deprevation. Just before anyone gets stuck into me, I'm not overweight, I am Scottish, yes I do work, love good food & typos don't freak me out.I don't particularly like the subject of politics the idependance vote is fast approaching & I would like to make an informed decision. :-) Vanman I'm seeing where your coming from the voice of the English in Scotland does appear to hold the no vote.

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## jax

> Oh Ducati ! independence will only lead to them arguing with each other again. They've been waiting a while to start the Clan( Tribal ) wars again its any excuse to disagree with each other and have a fight with someone then blame it on everyone but themselves


Lol I'm getting my face painted ready......lol

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## Tubthumper

*Issue*
*UK*
*Scotland*

Defence
Deploys Squaddies with melting boots, guns that don't work, non-protective armoured trucks etc.
Relatively small force with limited roles (Humanitarian, Peacekeeping) therefore good chance of being able to afford decent standards of kit. Has engineering expertise to design equipment for theatre/ role (i.e. NATO/ UN) and not stuck with vested interests for purchase. Unlikely to take unjustified aggressive stance thus avoiding illegal wars.

Defence
Declares war illegally and kills/ is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians
Political system & moral compass working correctly - Unlikely to get sucked into wars of dubious justification. More likely to be defending the weak and dispossessed than dropping bombs on them. Or selling bombs for others to drop on them.

Defence
Unconditionally supports the Trident Nuclear Deterrent
Doubts Trident is any deterrent against plausible threats (e.g. Al Quaeda, North Korea), in any event wants to get along with people rather than subjugate them. Also doubts true independence of deterrent. Considers obsessive need for such weapons as paranoia. Has better things to spend its money on like schools and hospitals.

Head of State
Gets a bit precious about allowing Scotland to use HM Queen on stamps
Understands need to have a head of State, and that it might as well be the one used for the last 300 years. Contribution to Royal Family running costs would probably be less than those for an elected President. rUK nationalistic arguments irrelevant due to royal family international nature - if HM Queen not possible could probably find unemployed Royal for job, as per history.

Energy
Thinks about shareholders first when developing energy policy. Considers new-build nuclear a wise choice. Still trying to find ways of getting power companies to invest in technology. 
Thinks about future generations when creating energy policy. Invests in range of energy sources with emphasis on cleanliness and sustainability. Can see that nuclear power is manifestly unsafe and requires massive ongoing subsidy to build and deal with waste and clean-up. Would rather spend cash on childcare.

Oil Revenues
Squanders money on illegal wars, achieving/ maintaining high unemployment or subsidising a minimum wage pool for cheap labour, getting private enterprise to provide poor services.
Historically thrifty and careful with resources due to frequent UK maladministration. In absence of desire to bully other Nations or subjugate own proletariat, likely to invest wisely for the benefit of all. 

Oil Revenues
Considers Scottish territorial oil reserves a UK asset. Will probably take great umbrage if Scotland claims geographic possession. 
Understands that any negotiated separation should take fair account of all assets and liabilities. However if rUK wants to get funny about oil reserves (as funded by the companies that recover it) they can whistle for a contribution to Nuclear cleanup costs outside Scotland.

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## Tubthumper

Infrastucture/ Investment
Withdraws investment where strategically required e.g. Environment Agency just as climate change becomes an issue. Pursues huge investments with minimal benefit for anyone except shareholders e.g. HS2. 
Probably unable to make worse job than current or previous UK incumbents. With relatively small boundaries, can probably get investment about right for maximum benefit of population. Historically thrifty with proven ability to balance books. 

Legal System
Permits police to routinely shoot unarmed/ innocent people in street or underground. Or kill harmless drunks. Legal system regularly loses prosecutions e.g.celebrity rape, large-scale fraud cases. Establishment turns blind eye to illegal activities by media until it becomes safe to turn on own 'friends'. 
Centralised Police service still sorting itself out but must be better than UK offering. Citizens unlikely to be killed by Police. Sunday Post not known for celebrity bin-raking. Present Government striving to improve access to law for all, which doesn't always work, meaning rape or abuse victims may not get justice.

Education
Strives to further cause of elitism through spending money on 'Academies' while quietly supporting exclusive school & uni control of key roles.
Will probably continue to strive for fair access to decent education for all regardless of income or parental standing. Despite whining by neighbours.

International Standing
Ignores poor international reputation, dislike by neighbours, not trusted. Considered whiny and self-serving. Made a pig's ear of empire especially at end. Sucks up to big friend for protection then wonders why gets targetted. Takes robust stance against home-grown terror groups (using illegal means where required) until financial centres threatened at which point negotiated settlement becomes possible.
Reasonably good international reputation without historical baggage. Mature enough to to develop own friends. Own oil resources so unlikely to invade/ bomb other sovereign states. Individual terrorists likely to get heads kicked in if trying anything. Provided most of early US leadership, wonders what went wrong. 

Immigration/ Border Control
Unable to control immigration or the free movement of drugs etc.
News reports appear to say it all. Scottish Government couldn't do any worse than UK Government is doing.

Politics
Claims previous administration to blame for failures (all parties)
Scots not born yesterday - Controlling Government unlikely to get away with blaming previous administration. Although blame for many existing problems could be fairly laid with UK Government.

Independence Campaign
No' campaign capitalises on fear of the unknown. Resorts to scoffing and name-calling. Unashamedly uses hearsay, rumour and twised data. Not ashamed to have Alistair Darling as front man. 
Understands A Darling is a noted incompetent who presided over financial 'collapse' and took over 'No' role while languishing on opposition back-benches. Population would not urinate on him in the event of spontaneous human combustion. Rolls eyes at histrionics of 'No' campaign.

----------


## Tubthumper

EU Membership
Always complaining about unfairness but unwilling/ unable to do much beyond making a noise.
Considers UK like the horrible spoilt kid in a school class, that no-one wants to play with but no-one can do anything about for fear he'll start crying again. Understands that Spanish claims re membership may be a bit biased.

NATO Membership
Considers self a big player, however is just a noisy has-been that can't get over losing its Empire.
New kid on block - will want to get along with allies while discouraging military adventures of dubious provenance. Could well be a voice of reason. Understands that possession of Nuclear deterrent is not typical for NATO members.

Banking & Finance
Presided over collapse of RBS, Barclays etc. and unwilling to hold  those responsible to account.
Nationally uncomfortable with greed, ideally wanting a fair shake for all. Thinks Directors, regulators, politicians should be held to account for failings, losing all payoffs and pension in event of company collapse. Couldn't do a worse job than has been done.

Pensions
Expresses dismay at impending pensions crisis while having presided over erosion of pension funds and sentenced millions to minimum-wage hell (with no pension provision).
Nation understands dynamics of decency, dislikes greed, likely to strive for improved standards for all.

Tax
Encourages the rich to avoid paying any tax at all while pursuing the small player with vigour. Refuses to condemn or close tax havens. Defends failure to raise higer income tax rate as it will 'make businesses go elsewhere'.
May consider businesses which use minimum wage labour for massive untaxed profits as slavers and pirate and welcome to go elsewhere. Will hopefully work with other Nations to close loopholes and stop blatant abuses of tax systems.

Fiscal Probity
Incapable of getting it right. Welded to belief that Private Sector = Good. Convinced (by private sector) that 'financial services' would sustain Nation, then apprently blindsided by financial 'collapse' of massive proportions.
Has noted that despite massive collapse affecting 'everyone', UK sales of luxury cars are higher than ever. And that some people didn't have to give up their holiday homes or ponies.

Health
Hails NHS progress then initiates yet another programme of 'improvement'.
Understands such 'improvement' is probably part of campaign to make NHS look bad so as to allow private health providers access to big accounts. Knows that NHS Scotland is not perfect but appears better than other places. 

Health
Reports that Scots are the fattest, drunkest, laziest, druggiest in the world
Thanks the UK for presiding over this apparent slide into despair. Notes English international reputation for hooliganism, drunkenness and drugs, also Welsh teen depression/ suicide rates and N Irish drunkenness/ riots and wonders whether data is conclusive or just imaginitively interpreted.

Health
Requires sick people to pay for prescriptions (Some areas)
Points out that in Scotland sick people receive free health care regardless of income or standing as per original NHS vision.

Sport
Invests proceeds of gambling in sport. Currently achieves some success however some National teams an embarassment (football, rugby cricket).
Currently achieves some success, however some national teams an embarassment (football, rugby). On independence may be able to provide improved local & National sports facilities. Probably won't change much as will still be a small Nation and most kids have better things to do than slog up and down a swimming pool for hours on end.

----------


## Oddquine

> I do think all this we are afraid of independence is the work of the equivalent of school bullies,do it or we will call you names and say youre a scaredy cat. Its not that people are scared per say they just don't see that anything will be gained except maybe an increase in nationalism and expense.  All this Scotland is dammed,is absolute rubbish on one hand the pro independence lobby tell us how prosperous Scotland is and on the other allegedly we are being impoverished by Westminster. I think the pro independence lobby need to actually back up all the rhetoric with some hard facts so far the white paper is a list of dreams with no hard evidence shown how to achieve them. Lets have a bit less Braveheart and more common sense. The last time Scotland was an independent country was 300yrs ago its not done so badly out of the union so far why change a perfectly good system because a minority can't see how the United Kingdom works together well and keeps us all financially more secure, more able to trade globally and makes the country as a whole a safer more humane place to live. Can you imagine what the country would be like if my Alex Salmomd was allowed to run things, already we see his party tampering with the law trying to remove corroboration, trying to water down freedom of speech. All this from a party people are supposed to trust because Alex says it will be alright on the night. I'm sorry I'm neither brainwashed nor scared I just haven't seen a single shred of definable evidence that shows how long term Scotland will be a better place to live. That's unless I want to vote for some quasi socialist state run by swivelled eyed Marxist without the decency to admit what their true political persuasion is.


Braveheart?  Marxist?  Your irrationality is showing, RR......those are the Independence equivalents of Godwin's Law! 

 Too many people are voting from a dislike, bordering on the irrational, of Alex Salmond, as if he was going to be the immortal king of Scots running the country by divine right.  I assume that voting to stay in the Union, in that case, is a vote of confidence in Cameron, Milliband, Clegg and their cohorts and approval of the enriching of the already rich, the daemonising of the poor and disabled, the privatising of the NHS, the rolling back of the welfare state in the direction of 1948, illegal or pointless wars on the coat-tails of the USA, and the funding and maintenance of a Nuclear weapon for no other real reason than that it gets the UK politicians a seat at the top table in International fora to underline their  sense of their own importance.

We know what is going to happen in the UK from now until 2020....more of what we currently have re austerity, but we don't know how much devolution we will still have with a no vote..and I'm afraid the PM who said  the likes of the following_,_ ahead of and during the 2010 election_......we will clean  up politics; no front-line reductions; a bigger army for a safer  Britain; welfare reform won't mean benefit cuts for disabled children;  we will not scrap Educational Maintenance Allowance; we will cut tax  credits only for families on £50,000; I wouldn't means test child  benefit; our plans don't involve an increase in VAT; no cut to   Pensioners Winter Fuel Allowance; no more top down reorganisation of the  NHS etc,_ only to do exactly the opposite, doesn't fill me with any confidence at all..and NuLabour is not going to change any Tory policies, any more than they did from 1997 onwards.

The one certain thing is that Scotland wants more control of the way our money is spent......and the main uncertain thing is the control devolution gives Westminster over those aspirations. That control by Westminster was amply illustrated by the straight YES/NO referendum question, despite the fact that the majority of Scots would have preferred to have something better than the status quo, but less than complete independence...and also the removal of ROC control from Scotland.  Into the bargain, Andy Burnham, the onetime NuLabour  Health Secretary is on record as saying _"Devolution,  in its early days, was about doing something different and it needs to  enter a different phase where we start talking again more about a  UK-wide policy because in the end that helps everybody"_....which would mean privatisation..as could also happen with Scottish Water. 

It is also a fact that _anything_ relating to Scotland which has to get through Westminster to become law rarely comes out at the end the way it entered the system..and this alone makes any "promises" by any party as to "further devolution" no more guaranteed than anything said by YES supporters or the Scottish Government.  Seems to me there is much more chance of it "being all right on the night" if we have the ability to switch on or off our own lights, rather than relying on Westminster to decide how dark it is, and if we really need to be  able to see.

If you haven't seen a single shred of definable evidence that shows how long term Scotland will be a better place to live, would you care to offer *a single shred of definable evidence that shows how long term the UK will be a better place to continue to live in*.......particularly given the probability that all future UK Governments will be right wing to some degree and rejected by the majority of Scots?

----------


## jax

Excellento Tubthumper!

----------


## jax

Oddquine you have a good way with words & a lot of sense

----------


## RagnarRocks

Ah yes the illegal wars and financial collapse who was in power Messr Blair, Brown I won't ask where they came from as we all know that tells you something

----------


## Oddquine

> Ah yes the illegal wars and financial collapse who was in power Messr Blair, Brown I won't ask where they came from as we all know that tells you something


And what does where they come from matter?  You surely aren't so terminally thick as to believe that Blair and Brown etc were running the UK on behalf of *Scotland*, are you?  Sheesh!  Westminster MPs run the UK for the benefit of London first and every other part of the UK a distant second.....regardless if they are Scottish MPs Welsh MPs, NI MPs English MPs....or Scots, Welsh, English etc MPs sitting for constituencies outside the land of their birth.  

I can almost understand the arrogance of people, who have not been taught any better, calling  Britain, GB and the UK, England as an all-encompassing blanket method of identification...but I really can't get my head round the idea that _anyone_ with a modicum of commonsense  would believe that a couple of Scottish MPs in Government means that they dictate the policies of their parties. 

The fact that they are Scottish and took frankly ill-considered, if not downright stupid actions, building on Thatcher's legacy, was not because they woke up one morning and decided they had complete autonomy to do what they liked....but because a party with a predominantly English membership in the UK and a predominantly English Parliamentary party decided that that was what was going to happen......they didn't do it as _Scots._...they did it as NuLabour Party apparatchik *Brits*. 

Nothing in the Westminster pro-Union mindset has changed, either among UK party Scottish MPs if you consider that Jimmy Hood, NuLabour MP for Lanark and Hamilton East, didn't turn up to vote against the bedroom tax.....and is on record as saying, in the Parliamentary debate on "Scotland's Place in the UK"  _“Even if the SNP was right and there  was a grand, great thing at the end of the rainbow for the SNP and its  debate for independence, I would still be against it._ _If the Scottish people are going to be better off economically and so on, I would still be against breaking away from the Union.“_.....and that is from the Unionist  MP for a constituency which has 25+% of its population among the most deprived in Scotland. Politicians, pigs , noses and troughs spring immediately to mind!  And you are happy with MPs sitting in Westminster with that attitude?   Double Sheesh!

I repeat my question  _If you haven't seen a single shred of definable evidence that shows how  long term Scotland will be a better place to live, would you care to  offer a single shred of definable evidence that shows how long term the UK will be a better place to continue to live in.......particularly  given the probability that all future UK Governments will be right wing  to some degree and rejected by the majority of Scots? 				_

----------


## Big Gaz

> Why? The vote is for the residents of Scotland. When the vote is no are you going to blame the English? What about the Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, Polish, Welsh, Irish, and all the other races and nationalities represented by the residents of Scotland?


It would indeed be a shocker if English people living in Scotland torpedoed the yes for independence vote  ::

----------


## Big Gaz

Interesting convo i had with my mate in Manchester just 5 mins ago. He phoned to say thanks for the parcel i sent him last week and told me the courier lad said to him "i see it's from 3rd world Jockland, sooner we get rid of that bloodsucking bunch of ****** that's bleeding this country dry, the better! I hope that when they do go independent that they need a passport to get into England and it costs them the earth to import stuff from down here that they can't be bothered to make up there". Matey was a little bemused at the couriers bold statement and wonders if that is a fair representation of what we are classed as by some of those down south?
He is himself concerned about future shipping costs and problems with his parcels and he knows full well that i can send stuff to him for roughly 1/3 of the cost of what it costs him to send stuff to me (£12 +vat my cost as opposed to £30 +vat his cost) thats why i make the pickup arrangements as its cheaper.
He also asked if i know anything about SNP policy on immigrants as his Polish neighbours are looking for a house and jobs down there for their Polish friends in Perth who claim that they have been told that they will suffer financially when/if we get independence. Who's told them that i wonder??

----------


## squidge

> You present a good case Squidge 
> 
> Vanman I too would like to know the answer to the only question you ask.


I think there are many reasons why Westminster want to keep Scotland as part of the UK.  This isnt about what "the English" want - it is about what Westminster want.  

So possible reasons 

They love us, love Britain and feel that Britain should stay united.  There is nothing wrong with this view, ITs perfectly reasonable to love the country you were born in, lived your life in and want to remain the same.  Interestingly, although this seems to be a perfectly good reason for wanting to keep the union, those who suggest that they want an Independent Scotland because it is a country in its own right, because they love Scotland and believe it should be free to make its own decisions are often described with derision from the anti independence commentators as "braveheart" ( Interestingly in all the time I have been invovled in the Independence debate the only people I hear referencing Braveheart ar those supporting the Union.) However for that seems to be a perfectly acceptable reason to want to vote No or to want to "keep" Scotland as part of the UK. 

Other reasons include the effect Independence may have on the rUK economy, the removal of oil from the income, the tax revenues, the whisky, the contrbution Scotland makes to the overall UK economy.  Of course Westminster wants Scotland to continue to contribute - why wouldnt it. Scotland makes a greater contribution to the economy than its population share would indicate - the FT articles mentioned previously show that. The UK is better off with Scotland in it than it would be with Scotland out of it.  

Other reasons are around the position of the UK on the "world Stage" does Scotland being Independent mean that the UK would have less clout?  The suggestion is that Scotland benefits hugely from the UK having a seat on the UBN security council, from the UK being at the "top Table" in the G8/12/20 whatever it happens to be, the UN, NATO and the EU. I am not sure that it does. If you take the EU then with Independence Scotland would have a greater number of MEPs to represent Scotland's Interests.  Scotland would negotiate on its own behalf and therefore the priorities of Scotland would be given a greater emphasis than they are now when negotiations are for the UK as a whole.  There is quite a bit of information and evidence which shows that smaller countries benefit from being able to concentrate on issues that are of importance to them. The other issue around this is that the UK might lose its place in World Affairs. the seat on the Security council for example.  Well, that seat was given to the UK after WW2 as recognition of the role that the UK played in that conflict.  I doubt it will lose it in the way that is suggested.  

The other main reason that I can find is the political landscape of the rUK. There is a suggestion that the rest of the UK will be condemned to a lifetime of Tory governments - that we would be "abandoning" the Uk to misery and that we somehow think Scotland is "special".  Firstly it is fact that the votes cast in Scotland make very little difference to the overall result of a Westminster General Election.  There is not one instance since the war where Scotland's votes have changed the result of the General Election.  They have mitigated it a little on, I think 3 occasions.  This has mean that where there was likely to be a majority government Scotland's votes have pushed it into a hung parliament. There is nothing special about wanting Independence.  Independence is the normal state of affairs for normal countries and when you talk to people from other countries they think that the Union is the odd thing - they dont understand why we would want another country to tell us how to spend our money.  Of course there is also the small issue of Scottish MPs and Scottish members of the House of Lords.   Many of which may find themselves out of a job if there is an independent Scotland. Jim Hood MP for Lanark and Hamilton East said last week that "Even if the SNP were right and there was a grand great thing at the end of the rainbow for the SNP and its debate for Independence, I would still be against it,If the scottish people are going to be better off economically and so on, I wouold still be against breaking away from the union". Draw your own conclusions. 

As for Immigration - well you can agree or disagree but the fact remains that Scotland needs solutions and plans for SCOTLAND. Scotland is not Ireland, Norway, Greece, or even England - it is Scotland and the solutions to Scotland's Future should be in Scotland's hands.  Its no more complicated than that.

----------


## squidge

> It would indeed be a shocker if English people living in Scotland torpedoed the yes for independence vote


  Lol Gaz I dont think we need to worry!  After Daves big speech last week Twitter was aflame with people saying go for it, Wish you luck and other such comments  - it was quite amusing.

----------


## ducati

> Braveheart?  Marxist?  Your irrationality is showing, RR......those are the Independence equivalents of Godwin's Law! 
> 
>  Too many people are voting from a dislike, bordering on the irrational, of Alex Salmond, as if he was going to be the immortal king of Scots running the country by divine right.  I assume that voting to stay in the Union, in that case, is a vote of confidence in Cameron, Milliband, Clegg and their cohorts and approval of the enriching of the already rich, the daemonising of the poor and disabled, the privatising of the NHS, the rolling back of the welfare state in the direction of 1948, illegal or pointless wars on the coat-tails of the USA, and the funding and maintenance of a Nuclear weapon for no other real reason than that it gets the UK politicians a seat at the top table in International fora to underline their  sense of their own importance.


Yeah I want all that.

----------


## ducati

> As for Immigration - well you can agree or disagree but the fact remains that Scotland needs solutions and plans for SCOTLAND. Scotland is not Ireland, Norway, Greece, or even England - it is Scotland and the solutions to Scotland's Future should be in Scotland's hands.  Its no more complicated than that.


A poll mentioned on the News today suggested that Most Scots would object to more immigration. 

Big surprise there hey?

----------


## squidge

> A poll mentioned on the News today suggested that Most Scots would object to more immigration. 
> 
> Big surprise there hey?


Yes you are right it is a poll out today - a YouGov poll comparing the view on immigration between people in England and Wales and those in Scotland  but the results are a much more complex than you suggest 

Here are the results for you to look for yourself 

http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net...Wales-Scot.pdf 

And here is some analysis.




> So - *54%* of people in England and Wales think immigration is one of the top three issues facing the country, compared to just *22%* of Scots. 
> 
>  Drilling into the detail, theres a  dramatic difference in attitudes towards immigrants according to their  profession. On both sides of the border, people are keen to have MORE  immigration of what we might term middle-class workers (_eg_  scientists and researchers), but want far fewer working-class immigrants  (labourers, restaurant staff). 
> 
> Poor people clearly feel far more  threatened than the well-off by foreigners competing for their jobs, but  Scots consistently remain less opposed across all categories. (Most notably when it comes to immediate  families of existing legal immigrants. Scots are almost exactly evenly  divided on whether we should let more or fewer people come to join their  spouses/parents/children, with a net rating of just *-1*, whereas almost twice as many in England and Wales are opposed to reuniting families as are in favour.)
> 
>  But then things get a little odd. When asked what they mean when they talk of immigration, Scots by a margin of *+12* say theyre thinking of _legal_ rather than _illegal_ immigrants. In England and Wales, however, the situation is exactly reversed, with the figure at *-12*.  Yet when asked which theyd like to see addressed, the two groups responses are almost identical (*45%* in England and Wales wanting illegal immigrants to be the main focus of reductions, *42%* in Scotland).
> 
>  So we were already pretty confused by  the time we got to the matter of jurisdiction. Because despite  apparently being firmly in favour of a reduction in immigration, a  whopping *60%* of Scots wanted the matter controlled by  the Scottish Goverment  which currently favours INCREASED immigration   against just half as many (*31%*) who wanted the anti-immigration UK government to handle the issue.
> ...


http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-per...ng/#more-49635

----------


## bekisman

All this burble of Scotland gaining independence from England is a load of  nonsense. 
 It might be of interest (but I doubt it) to some thicko's, but ENGLAND is NOT  an Independent country, i.e. There's no possible way England could become an  independent member of the United Nations. England is an internal division of the  United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
 So twats taking about being under the English heel and other Nationalist  drivel are just being (as usual)  puerile.

*Bottom line; The Nationalist intention is to destroy the United Kingdom, and  when it's done they expect that England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be  benevolent towards them.

*
*WHAT! a country that has destroyed the Union? Are they thick or something? *

----------


## RagnarRocks

Well said Beks

----------


## Tubthumper

> All this burble of Scotland gaining independence from England is a load of  nonsense.  It might be of interest (but I doubt it) to some thicko's, but ENGLAND is NOT  an Independent country, i.e. There's no possible way England could become an  independent member of the United Nations. England is an internal division of the  United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. So twats taking about being under the English heel and other Nationalist  drivel are just being (as usual)  puerile.   [B]Bottom line; The Nationalist intention is to destroy the United Kingdom, and  when it's done they expect that England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be  benevolent towards *WHAT! a country that has destroyed the Union? Are they thick or something? *


 Did anyone mention independence from England on here?  I didn't notice it.  You sound panicky beks - what's up?

----------


## squidge

Thats a positive and polite contribution to the debate Beks!.  Have you seen any post on here talking about Scotland being "under the English Heel?" I havent. 

It may be that you have been away so long you havent moved on from the ridiculous and discredited assertion made in February 2013 that Scotland Ceased to exist in 1707.  This was quickly put to bed because if Scotland ceased to exist in 1707  then an Independent Scotland would be seen in international law as a completely new country entitled to none of the assets of the existing Uk but also none of the debts. 

Seems like the No crowd backed away from that point of view pretty quickly.  

Do keep up chuck lol :Wink:

----------


## bekisman

Come on tubs; me panicky? nah - just feel sorry for their unbelievable naivety. 

Seems the HEALTH of Scotland (according to  Squidge-why-say-a-few-words-when-a-hundred-will-do) is entirely the fault of  that dammed Westminster.
'spose this is the UK's fault  too:
a)The rape conviction rate in  Scotland stands at a dismal 3.7% – one of the lowest in the Western world  
b)Scotland had  the highest murder rate of any of the four UK nations, as well as the highest  violent crime rate.
c)Scotland has the 2nd  highest murder rate in Europe, and has been labelled the most violent country in  the developed world (all types of  violence)

----------


## squidge

I dont say it is the fault of westminster - in 100 words or in two.  

I say that it is what it is but that the only chance we have of doing anything to resolve it is through being in control of how we spend and collect our money.  There is no impetus from Westminster to improve the lot of those people struggling at the bottom of the heap.

----------


## squidge

You know it seems a bit odd that people complain if they think that those of us who support Independence BLAME Westminster for the ills of society and yet dont seem to think it makes sense to take control of it and sort it out ourselves.  How many times do we see "stop whining - stand on your own two feet and stop complaining that you get a raw deal" and yet people -  the same people complain that we are thick, stupid and childish to want to take that control and determine our own future.

----------


## Big Gaz

> Come on tubs; me panicky? nah - just feel sorry for their unbelievable naivety. 
> 
> Seems the HEALTH of Scotland (according to  Squidge-why-say-a-few-words-when-a-hundred-will-do) is entirely the fault of  that dammed Westminster.
> 'spose this is the UK's fault  too:
> a)The rape conviction rate in  Scotland stands at a dismal 3.7%  one of the lowest in the Western world  
> b)Scotland had  the highest murder rate of any of the four UK nations, as well as the highest  violent crime rate.
> c)Scotland has the 2nd  highest murder rate in Europe, and has been labelled the most violent country in  the developed world (all types of  violence)


Sorry but i need to see the links where you got those figures. 

According to your statement there were at least 553 murders in Scotland last year?

 There were 552 murders in England & Wales last year says the website:-

http://www.citizensreportuk.org/repo...olence-uk.html

----------


## RagnarRocks

This might be what's he's talking about Gaz.  http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/433...violent-deaths

----------


## ducati

> Yes you are right it is a poll out today - a YouGov poll comparing the view on immigration between people in England and Wales and those in Scotland  but the results are a much more complex than you suggest 
> 
> Here are the results for you to look for yourself 
> 
> http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net...Wales-Scot.pdf 
> 
> And here is some analysis.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes the analysis isn't. It is spin.

----------


## RagnarRocks

It also is very dependent on where you get your poll stats from I've rarely seen a poll that is representative of the vast majority of people. They are usually produced by govt depts or institutions trying to sway opinion one way or the other.

----------


## squidge

> Yes the analysis isn't. It is spin.


Well the actual results are there Ducati, you can look at them and draw your own conclusions. You can see the plain results, no analysis, no spin just the results.

Or more to the point, ANYONE here can look at them and draw their own conclusions and. I would urge people to do exactly that.

----------


## Big Gaz

> This might be what's he's talking about Gaz.  http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/433...violent-deaths


gah, that rag! i wouldn't line my cat litter tray with it......and i don't have a cat!

Besides, that article is nowhere near what Bekisman is claiming. It is a figure per 100,000 of population and thus Scotland with around 6mil, is 10% of what the rest of the country is so by my reckoning if there is 600 murders in England/Wales and N.Ireland and just 61 in Scotland, that puts us top for murders per 100,000 population. These polls are so bad and most of them just pluck imaginary figures out the air and use other invented figures to justify the imaginary ones.

----------


## vanman1

still no answer as to why the english are so desperate to keep hold of scotland. i will give you my reason, scotland pump to much money into the uk and its the english who will need bailing out in 5 or so years when not if scotland become independent.

----------


## ducati

> still no answer as to why the english are so desperate to keep hold of scotland. i will give you my reason, scotland pump to much money into the uk and its the english who will need bailing out in 5 or so years when not if scotland become independent.


Wishful thinking? What have you got against the English?

----------


## RagnarRocks

> Wishful thinking? What have you got against the English?


Probably doesn't really know just a convenient bunch to be angry at for something they may have done at some stage somewhere, possibly, maybe but it serves a purpose as its easier to be angry at others than yourself :0))

----------


## vanman1

nothing against the english. it fact scots give more money per head to the uk than england, and like i said why so desperate to keep hold of scotland. most of uk oil in scottish waters, english boats fish scottish waters. on that alone how much is the better together westminster gov taking from scotland and what do we get from them very little.

----------


## Southern-Gal

> nothing against the english. it fact scots give more money per head to the uk than england, and like i said why so desperate to keep hold of scotland. most of uk oil in scottish waters, english boats fish scottish waters. on that alone how much is the better together westminster gov taking from scotland and what do we get from them very little.


So in your mind an Englishman living in Scotland paying his taxes and contributing to the system is better than an Englishman in England paying into the system?
And if this is so then encouraging more English (and other nationalities) should be top of your agenda?

----------


## vanman1

haha when scotland gains independence not if, then we wont need to encourage they will come, can you tell me why we are better together because no one this on the forum seems to know.

----------


## Big Gaz

> haha when scotland gains independence not if, then we wont need to encourage they will come, can you tell me why we are better together because no one this on the forum seems to know.


I don't think we are "better together". At every opportunity, Dave and his hoods are kicking the Scots where it hurts, in the pocket!
ie.
Ravenscraig "not so British Steel"
Govan Shipyards
Linwood Chrysler
Bathgate BMC
Polkemmet Pit
Fishing policies
Longannet Pit
Carron Iron Works
Motorola Bathgate
Alexander Dennis
And the list goes on and on and on!

What happened to the "Silicon Glen"? gone without a trace due to the companies moving abroad. No thanks to the govt for not trying to keep them here either!

Scotland = ruined by the govt & EU policies

Granted some of the industries were not competitive but how can a government allow foreign companies to take raw resources from Scotland, ship them half way round the world, process them and then send them back to be sold cheaper than what it costs to make them in Scotland then have the damned audacity to tax us on global warming when these foreign industries are the no.1 contributor to global warming caused by the processes they use! 

Coffee time grrr

----------


## ducati

> I don't think we are "better together". At every opportunity, Dave and his hoods are kicking the Scots where it hurts, in the pocket!
> ie.
> Ravenscraig "not so British Steel"
> Govan Shipyards
> Linwood Chrysler
> Bathgate BMC
> Polkemmet Pit
> Fishing policies
> Longannet Pit
> ...


I can't deal with all that my eyes are watering too much. Silicon Glen I'll have a go at. At its early stages the price for a single wafer was £90. 5 years or so later it was 90p. It was not possible to manufacture and make a profit anywhere the wages were anything like reasonable so it had to go. But you blame Westminster it will make you feel better.

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## Big Gaz

> I can't deal with all that my eyes are watering too much. Silicon Glen I'll have a go at. At its early stages the price for a single wafer was £90. 5 years or so later it was 90p. It was not possible to manufacture and make a profit anywhere the wages were anything like reasonable so it had to go. But you blame Westminster it will make you feel better.


lol, i had to get you crying somehow. Of late you have been showing yourself as cruel and heartless  :: 

Go on, try pick another one and tell me the government helped them out in times of need....

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## Kenn

David Cameron is prime minister of The United Kingdom, not England.
The United Kingdom was formed when James VI of Scotland became James 1 of England and Ireland.
This is a basic fact and yet most people seem to have a problem with getting it correct.
There also seems to be a lack of comprehension as to how the ballot box works, it is a 1st past the post in a general election and this will always mean wide variations in results dependent of what part of these islands one lives in and which can result in people feeling very estranged but that is down to the system and not central government.

I am still dithering about the forthcoming vote but such a lack of understanding tends to make me reflect very seriously on the matter.

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## vanman1

my question which nobody has answered yet is why does david cameron want us to stay together. westminster needs scotland but does scotland need westminster. in one word no scotland does not need westminster.

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## ducati

> lol, i had to get you crying somehow. Of late you have been showing yourself as cruel and heartless 
> 
> Go on, try pick another one and tell me the government helped them out in times of need....


OK Alexander Dennis, They have gone out of business about 4 times. Bloody incompetent! They make buses and coaches that other companies buy...from the Dutch...who's wages are higher. I definately don't want my tax £s bailing out that shower. Do you?

Although I do seem to remember there was some kind of attempt at bailing them out in the past. (they also refused my offer of help with Management and Leadership training).

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## squidge

> my question which nobody has answered yet is why does david cameron want us to stay together. westminster needs scotland but does scotland need westminster. in one word no scotland does not need westminster.


. I did try on Page 6!

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## ducati

> Go on, try pick another one and tell me the government helped them out in times of need....


And I suppose the Goven Shipyards...frankly, I have lost track of how often they were bailed out/sold/bought/taken over for peanuts by Norwegion companies that still couldn't turn a profit. You don't think Westminster had a wee wordie regarding the latest reprieve?

One thing is for sure though, very shortly after a yes vote they will be as dead as a Surrey badger.

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## RagnarRocks

Well just watching sky news and they state the Chancellor is going to set his stall out as NO Currency union so that shoots Eck in the foot I wonder what plan B is....oh they don't have a plan B

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## RagnarRocks

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-26147783

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## bekisman

Whoops; no currency union!   so will say Chancellor George, and Ed Balls AND  Danny Alexander.
 
I'm waiting for the whinging, shouts of Bullies, toys out of  pram. 
Alex Salmond branded the UK Government  "incompetent Lord Snooties"   So what DID the pratt expect?

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## RagnarRocks

> Whoops; no currency union!   so will say leader of Chancellor George, and Ed Balls AND  Danny Alexander. I'm waiting for the whinging, shouts of Bullies, toys out of  pram. Alex Salmond branded the UK Government  "incompetent Lord Snooties"   So what DID the pratt expect?


They've already done the bully,intimidation bit on BBC radio this morning. 

Nicola Sturgeon said the position did not bear scrutiny and was a campaign manoeuvre in a bid to "bully Scotland".


Why is it they assume everything is up for grabs and when they are told NO its scaremongering, bullying and intimidation.

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## maverick

An Independent Scotland controlled by the Scottish National Party would be the equivalent to a dog having rabies.

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## Big Gaz

> An Independent Scotland controlled by the Scottish National Party would be the equivalent to a dog having rabies.


Who says that the SNP will control an independent Scotland? That's up to the population to decide, not Salmond or the SNP. Eck will have a year or two grace but unless he is a magician and works wonders, there won't be a place for him in the future as a first minister

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## Oddquine

> Well just watching sky news and they state the Chancellor is going to set his stall out as NO Currency union so that shoots Eck in the foot I wonder what plan B is....oh they don't have a plan B


Yes there is...we'll use Sterling until such time as it doesn't suit us! Get with the programme, RR!  That has always been plan B.
We'll be in a better position even with no currency union with all the tools of fiscal policy than we are now inside the UK Union with no say and no fiscal tools.

http://www.cmonscotland.org/#!Curren...E-26D348F165F3

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## maverick

> Who says that the SNP will control an independent Scotland? That's up to the population to decide, not Salmond or the SNP. Eck will have a year or two grace but unless he is a magician and works wonders, there won't be a place for him in the future as a first minister


Okay lets look at the situation, in the yes corner we have the SNP, in the no corner is nearly every other political party in Scotland. (please note the word nearly). A vote for independence is a vote for the SNP, if Alex Salmond pulls off the independence fiasco, the other political parties will take years to recover from their no campaign and Mr Salmond knows this. Currently we do not have a democratic parliament in Scotland for that matter we don't have a democratic parliament in the UK. What we do have is a totalitarian government dressed up as democracy. In an independent Scotland that situation would get worse. The current independent mechanism is doomed to fail to the cost of every Scottish man, woman and child.

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## Alrock

> A vote for independence is a vote for the SNP, if Alex Salmond pulls off the independence fiasco, the other political parties will take years to recover from their no campaign....


A vote for independence is just that, a vote for independence....

You can't blame Alex Salmond for the ineptitude of other parties, though I'm sure that they are not daft enough to have no contingency plans in the event of a YES win.

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## Oddquine

> A vote for independence is just that, a vote for independence....
> 
> You can't blame Alex Salmond for the ineptitude of other parties, though I'm sure that they are not daft enough to have no contingency plans in the event of a YES win.


They may well be..look at the head in the sand attitude of the Westminster MPs....50+ of whom are Scottish politicians.

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## RagnarRocks

I think Westminster has been pretty clear on the currency today, its so rare that all three parties agree as to not be worth talking about but there you have it No Currency Union. That's the first of Mr Salmomds negotiations failed. What else can we expect should independence occur No automatic entry into Europe that's on the cards already. So then all the subsidies that come from Europe for the farmers etc  go out the window. Its all very well saying everything is up for negotiation but that is only the case if the other side agrees.As for using the pound then  borrowing off the international money markets, can you imagine the interest rates charged for a newly independent country without a currency or credit rating that will be charged that threatens or default when it doesn't get its own way.I'm afraid all the assurances of the SNP about what will happen are starting to Unravel

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## squidge

What a load of fuss. Scotland can use the pound without the currency union. Just like jersey does. Or we can have our own new currency. I prefer a new Scottish currency but above all i care how we choose out priorities. It does amuse me how people here who complain about those who believe what the Scottish Government says and yet swallow this stuff hook line and sinker. This is just the next stage of the campaign. After all, this is the Government for whom yesterday Vince Cable spoke on behalf of when he said that RBS would inevitably move its headquarters to London. Today, however, the Chief Executive at RBS not only said that RBS could work within an Independent Scotland he also said that he'd had NO DISCUSSIONS, NO CONVERSATION with Vince Cable about this subject at all. Its all kidology!

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## RagnarRocks

Unless I'm very much mistaken the Government are the largest shareholder in RBS and its now owned by the country so its Chief Executive would pretty much have to do as he is told no ifs no buts no maybes. Are you sure youre not getting confused with Barclays who made a statement that they could work in Scotland. Jersey is a tax haven so has huge currency reserves and a very healthy track record for a credit history. So how do either of these effect a newly independent country with no central bank and no currency and no credit rating. It means you have to search hard to find lenders who are prepared to lend you money and then pay the rates they charge. Its not kidology its finance that's the way the markets work. You can prefer all you like but ideology is one thing hard reality is another and financiers aren't renowned for being wonderful ideologists.

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## squidge

No Rags I am not getting confused. Barclays ALSO said they would adapt to an Independent Scotland. This is what Ross mcEwan (chief exec RBS) actually said "We've been in Scotland for nearly 300 years. So I need to take this independence issue very seriously. We've also been operating in the rest of the UK for nearly hundreds of years and have a royal charter. It's really important that the Scottish people get the opportunity to vote, and then if I need to adapt my business to serve England, Scotland, Wales and both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, then I will.Mr Cable and I have not talked about moving our head office. "It was im an online discussion for The Guardian.

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## RagnarRocks

So he's totally ignoring the fact that he may be chief exec but the majority shareholder is The country via the government which still means he does as he's told at the end of the day. Its ok to keep quoting the people who don't make the decisions or shifting the goal posts but as I said Mr Salmonds assurances about negotiation are unravelling and as for the white paper its starting to look like a day dreamers charter based on nothing more than delusions of grandeur

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## vanman1

liked the snp response to westminsters bullying tactics recarding the pound if scotland cant use the pound then we dont need to take the uk debts. westminster bullies better come up with something better.

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## RagnarRocks

> liked the snp response to westminsters bullying tactics recarding the pound if scotland cant use the pound then we dont need to take the uk debts. westminster bullies better come up with something better.


That'll go down well with the international money markets watch the money lenders get the collywobbles with such a cavalier attitude taking their fair share of debt . Also since when has using a countries currency had anything to do with the debts run up by both countries the two issues are separate, seems the SNP are acting like the bullies when they don't get their own way. I wonder if that attitude will work when they try negotiate with Europe.

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## ducati

Currency is one of the top ten concerns of the voters. This bombshell has killed it as far as I'm concerned. Up untill now I didn't think a yes vote very likely but thought I could put up with it. With all the business I do with English Insurance companies banks and the like, it just will not be possible from a truly foreign country. :Frown:

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## squidge

Interestingly Danny Alexander was interviewed on LBC at around 5.30pm tonight and said that he did not know where this story had come from but that he would be "extremely surprised" if it was the treasury! We shall just see.


On a lighter note and with a chuckle it appears that until last night Ladbrokes were offering odds of 50/1 on Scotland NOT using the £ after imdependance. They then suspended the betting due to the news about the currency union. The odds came back on this afternoon and they are now offering odds of 1/3 that on the 1st Jan 2017 Scotland will be using the £. 

Oooh the political shenanigans lol

----------


## RagnarRocks

> Interestingly Danny Alexander was interviewed on LBC at around 5.30pm tonight and said that he did not know where this story had come from but that he would be "extremely surprised" if it was the treasury! We shall just see.


So he didn't deny it maybe he's more of an astute politician than I give him credit for. All will become clear tomorrow

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## RagnarRocks

You can see the headlines.
Scotland defaults on Debt

followed by

Scotland astounded by Europe's Entry Refusal
As the United Kingdom vetos entry

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## Southern-Gal

Just for fun  :Smile: 
Saw this on facebook and thought some of the Yes Men would appreciate it  :: 



More flooding down south - no need for the independence vote now

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## Tubthumper

Let's say the majority vote Yes. At that point it will dawn on those who voted No that, due to majority will, they will soon be in an independent country. Will they (and I include Mr Alexander as he's a kind of Jock) still be campaigning for no monetary union then? I think not.

What will you be saying RR? Campaigning against it during the negotiations will be a bit 'cut nose off to spite face' I would think, no?

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## RagnarRocks

Nope alas I will just be living in a country with a basket case economy that won't have its own currency won't be allowed into Europe and will have sailed into a sea of independence that the financial world will be scared to touch. Won't be able to sell up because values of properties will plummet. And the worse part is when it all goes wrong then the infighting will begin.

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## Tubthumper

Always look on the bright side, eh? So from the point of view of a typical no voter, the world will come to an end on independence and they won't lift a finger to help. Wonderful.

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## RagnarRocks

No my life will carry on much the same as it does now. Just as seen on this thread there are many nationalist who insist its " our " country so once they have independence what do they do then ? It usually starts with various rules for Scottish Born V Non Scottish or such like and descends, unfortunately nationalism is not a very healthy trait as its never satisfied.

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## RagnarRocks

And before everyone jumps on me this may be of some interest as it does relate in part to divisive nationalism 

Why the EU was formed

The overall aim of the EEC/EU, since its foundation in 1958, is to promote peace; the values of human rights; democracy; equality; the rule of law; and the well-being of its peoples. These values are the bedrock of the EU’s work and its role in the world.In 1950, less than five years after the end of the Second World War, the French politician Robert Schuman proposed the creation of a community of peaceful interests to Germany and any other European countries that wanted to join. The European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) Treaty was signed in Paris in 1951 and brought Belgium; the Federal Republic of Germany; France; Italy; Luxembourg; and the Netherlands together in a Community with the aim of organising free movement of coal and steel and free access to sources of production. The same six countries signed the Treaty of Rome on 25 March 1957 in order to build a European Economic Community (EEC) based on a wider common market covering a whole range of goods and services. The Treaty of Rome is anchored in the vision of ending war and the division of the European continent.It created a framework for the construction of Europe into the future and a process of creating an ever closer union between the peoples of Europe. The first enlargement of the EEC occurred when Denmark, the United Kingdom and Ireland joined in 1973.During the half century since the Treaty of Rome was signed, Europe has been transformed. The European Union has helped Europe to move from war and conflict to cooperation and peace. It has enabled Europeans to replace the economic ruin of the 1940s with a single market of 500 million people and a common currency now used by 320 million Europeans. The European Union is a unique body. No other part of the world has such an organisation whose mission is to bring countries together to pursue shared interests and values.

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## squidge

Well it didnt even last the day! Apparently the chancellor is not going to argue for or against a currency union tomorrow according to the BBC. I think Henry Macleish says a couple of interesting things. But Labour's former Scottish First Minister Henry McLeish criticised the intervention by the three pro-union parties, and said Scots "shouldn't be fooled" by the suggestion that a currency union could not be worked out.He told BBC Scotland: "This is entirely political and of course consistent with the unionist campaign. This is negative, it is about spreading fears and scare stories."What we require from the unionist parties is a bit of statesmanship and quite frankly their behaviour so far falls well short of that."Wonder if anyone actually changed their mind on the basis of this non story....  Poll anyone?

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## Big Gaz

> And before everyone jumps on me this may be of some interest as it does relate in part to divisive nationalism 
> 
> Why the EU was formed
> 
> The overall aim of the EEC/EU, since its foundation in 1958, is to promote peace; the values of human rights; democracy; equality; the rule of law; and the well-being of its peoples. These values are the bedrock of the EUs work and its role in the world.In 1950, less than five years after the end of the Second World War, the French politician Robert Schuman proposed the creation of a community of peaceful interests to Germany and any other European countries that wanted to join. The European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) Treaty was signed in Paris in 1951 and brought Belgium; the Federal Republic of Germany; France; Italy; Luxembourg; and the Netherlands together in a Community with the aim of organising free movement of coal and steel and free access to sources of production. The same six countries signed the Treaty of Rome on 25 March 1957 in order to build a European Economic Community (EEC) based on a wider common market covering a whole range of goods and services. The Treaty of Rome is anchored in the vision of ending war and the division of the European continent.It created a framework for the construction of Europe into the future and a process of creating an ever closer union between the peoples of Europe. The first enlargement of the EEC occurred when Denmark, the United Kingdom and Ireland joined in 1973.During the half century since the Treaty of Rome was signed, Europe has been transformed. The European Union has helped Europe to move from war and conflict to cooperation and peace. It has enabled Europeans to replace the economic ruin of the 1940s with a single market of 500 million people and a common currency now used by 320 million Europeans. The European Union is a unique body. No other part of the world has such an organisation whose mission is to bring countries together to pursue shared interests and values.


Luck o' the Irish to you too RR   :: 
http://www.eumatters.ie/why-was-the-eu-founded-.html

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## Bobinovich

> And before everyone jumps on me this may be of some interest as it does relate in part to divisive nationalism 
> 
> Why the EU was formed
> 
> The overall aim of the EEC/EU, since its foundation in 1958, is to promote peace; the values of human rights; democracy; equality; the rule of law; and the well-being of its peoples. These values are the bedrock of the EU’s work and its role in the world.In 1950, less than five years after the end of the Second World War, the French politician Robert Schuman proposed the creation of a community of peaceful interests to Germany and any other European countries that wanted to join. The European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) Treaty was signed in Paris in 1951 and brought Belgium; the Federal Republic of Germany; France; Italy; Luxembourg; and the Netherlands together in a Community with the aim of organising free movement of coal and steel and free access to sources of production. The same six countries signed the Treaty of Rome on 25 March 1957 in order to build a European Economic Community (EEC) based on a wider common market covering a whole range of goods and services. The Treaty of Rome is anchored in the vision of ending war and the division of the European continent.It created a framework for the construction of Europe into the future and a process of creating an ever closer union between the peoples of Europe. The first enlargement of the EEC occurred when Denmark, the United Kingdom and Ireland joined in 1973.During the half century since the Treaty of Rome was signed, Europe has been transformed. The European Union has helped Europe to move from war and conflict to cooperation and peace. It has enabled Europeans to replace the economic ruin of the 1940s with a single market of 500 million people and a common currency now used by 320 million Europeans. The European Union is a unique body. No other part of the world has such an organisation whose mission is to bring countries together to pursue shared interests and values.


Ah, if only they'd kept it as a simple free trade market instead of trying to run the lives of everyone involved, then it's likely that a lot of the current day issues with the EU would never have materialised :/

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## vanman1

here ragnarrocks you are what we scots call a slever, like westminster your full of bullshit. westminster needs scotland and as for defaulting on debts it will be westminster that defaults when they dont have scotlands money thats why there running scared. in one word without scotland westminster is fxxked

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## ducati

> here ragnarrocks you are what we scots call a slever, like westminster your full of bullshit. westminster needs scotland and as for defaulting on debts it will be westminster that defaults when they dont have scotlands money thats why there running scared. in one word without scotland westminster is fxxked


I think all the stramash about currency union proves that England doesn't need Scotland. If they bricked up the border and forgot about us it would hardly inconvenience them at all. Scotland without trade with the rest of the UK would be up shute creek.

How about a list of all the stuff England can only buy from Scotland? I'll start

Whisky....oh it's mostly owned by Diageo and Rickard Pernod so they can buy it from their European wharehouses.

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## RagnarRocks

This so far is the SNPs negotiation 

Give us the pound or we will default on debt

Let us into Europe or we won't let you fish in the North Sea 

This is Vanmans lets call everyone names who disagrees with me.


Yup and you wonder why I don't think Nationalism is a good idea.

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## RagnarRocks

> I think all the stramash about currency union proves that England doesn't need Scotland. If they bricked up the border and forgot about us it would hardly inconvenience them at all. Scotland without trade with the rest of the UK would be up shute creek.How about a list of all the stuff England can only buy from Scotland? I'll startWhisky....oh it's mostly owned by Diageo and Rickard Pernod so they can buy it from their European wharehouses.


Let us not forget to make the whiskey most of the Barley comes from south of the Border :0))

And as for Vanmans comments sure a population of 5 million hold so much economic sway over a population of 60 million that they need them.

Scotland's income tax receipts 10 billion  Scotland's Pension Provisions 6 billion


 Today's word is Delusional

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## ducati

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/scots-indep...005138469.html

Well, there you go folks. So what was plan B again?

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## jax

I am saddened by the divide that has already been created. Whether or not Scotland becomes independent the demon has been released from its box. I think every Scottish voter should have had a vote to see if we wanted the question of independance to be asked.  If the population wanted a vote on independance then the Scottish government could have gone ahead with preparations of a referendum.

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## bekisman

Just watched Nicola Sturgeon on Sky (sigh)
Well, we have Salmond, and it's been said on here,  rather irreverently 'the fishy pair' but after listening to Sturgeon I'd add  flounder"
It's also been said on here; _"Scotland can use the pound  without the currency union... Or we can have our own new currency. I prefer a  new Scottish currency"_  Oh dear, wish this - so very obviously NOT fiscal  policy experienced - person had read the Scottish Government findings by a  FANTASTIC panel of experts* in, where 'Following a detailed analysis of the  various options, the Working Group came up with NOT the above  suggestion' 
So wot's Plan B?  I expect Salmond was in a slever over his assertion Scotland  would keep the £, bet he's a wee bit 'Feart' now though. 

I was correct in that name calling would arise after my  earlier post, goodness me chaps, what on earth does this look like on the world  stage? tut tut. Basically SNP want Scotland to be independent from the UK. OK,  then go, they can't cherry pick the best parts, independence means 
INDEPENDENCE  
 not dependent; not depending or contingent upon something else for  existence, operation, etc.  not relying on another or others  for aid or  support*.*  
 I'm sure that the more cosmopolitan of you will know what this  refers too, but patience also ran out.   Depart, I say; and let us have done with  you.  In the name of God, go! 


http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0041/00419554.pdf

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## gerry4

I think this article says it all about Osborne's speech

""Political debate will take place on the issue of a currency union. Technical discussions will continue. A continuation of sterling in its present area, which would be a benefit for all parts of the UK, is surely the most logical option. Politics may cloud that view as the referendum approaches."

Sir James Mirrlees is professor emeritus of political economy at the University of Cambridge and professor at large at the Chinese University of Hong Kong. He won a Nobel Prize for economics in 1996."

Here is the full article http://www.scotsman.com/news/analysi...tion-1-3304617

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## RagnarRocks

I think the chancellors speech was quite clear and it was today . Leave the Union no currency union and it wasn't up for debate. To quote an article written prior to his statement is quite delusional it shows how unrealistic most people's grasp on fiscal union actually is. Why won't the YES campaign accept it when its told NO.  A similar argument is made about Europe and how Scotland is part of Europe now and therefor has a right to stay in Europe. The reality Scotland is currently part of the United Kingdom which is the signatory for Europe therefor if you vote to leave the United Kingdom you've effectively left Europe and will have to then reapply for membership. Which means an instant loss of all subsidies no Euro. These are bullying or threatening actions they are just the realities of Independence. So the First Minister saying if you don't let us into Europe we won't let you fish in the North Sea isn't a good start to negotiations .

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## RagnarRocks

> Interestingly Danny Alexander was interviewed on LBC at around 5.30pm tonight and said that he did not know where this story had come from but that he would be "extremely surprised" if it was the treasury! We shall just see.On a lighter note and with a chuckle it appears that until last night Ladbrokes were offering odds of 50/1 on Scotland NOT using the £ after imdependance. They then suspended the betting due to the news about the currency union. The odds came back on this afternoon and they are now offering odds of 1/3 that on the 1st Jan 2017 Scotland will be using the £. Oooh the political shenanigans lol


You might want to read Danny Alexander's website for clarification on his position I believe it is a resounding NO for currency union 

http://www.dannyalexander.org.uk/new...asp?newsID=381

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## Big Gaz

> You might want to read Danny Alexander's website for clarification on his position I believe it is a resounding NO for currency union 
> 
> http://www.dannyalexander.org.uk/new...asp?newsID=381


The spin merchants keep saying it will leave the currency open to risks but i have yet to see just one of the so-called risks on a 100% honest and truthful, plain view, in-your-face sheet of paper! 
If Scotland having the pound as a currency is going to be a risk at the end of the year then why isn't it a risk NOW? 
Why aren't the markets dumping Sterling now just in case it does happen? 
Why isn't the pound dropping in value now? 
Irrespective of whether the independence move goes ahead, the current fighting over Sterling would surely be enough to have people switching their Sterling holdings now to a much safer currency?

I've seen other currencies fall for less reasons than this petty squabbling over a currency union. The Italian currency is dropping just because they can't make up their minds about who to elect, Speculation on other countries currency has dumped many currencies into a deep bog and the list goes on.

Something isn't quite right here and it just might bring Sterling to its knees......or is that the master plan???

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## RagnarRocks

All three major parties have said no to currency union including the man from the teasury.
Point 1.currently Scotland isnt an indepedent country so  cant do as it wishes on taxation etc.  so no risk for now.   

 2. The £ is a relatively strong currency at the moment and London is a big finance centre 

 3. The Goverment has given assurances it will cover the bill should Scotland default    

 4. The Problem isn't Sterling its the SNPs assurances a currency union will happen.

What you should be asking is this..If No sterling then what and what are the ramifications for Independent Scotland for Mortgages, Pensions, Benefits, Pay.

Would Scotland still be part of Europe if not what about all the subsidies

 Would Scotland still be part of the United Nations and have a seat at the table

 Would Scotland still be part of the commonwealth and have access to the trading block

 Would Scotland still be part of NATO and shelter under its protection which has served us well since its formation

All the assumptions made by the SNP are based on the fact that currently Scotland is part of the United Kingdom and therefor entry to all those organisations is a done deal

The reality is once you vote to leave the United Kingdom you become an Independent Country and have to reapply for entry into every single one of them.

The argument that its all bullying is all well and good but the reality is, its just part of becoming independant the harsh realities of Indepenence and all that comes with it, whether that be good bad or indifferent. 

I think the problem is Voters are being sold Indepenence lite by the SNP vote for it and don't worry nothing will really change, reality is just about everything changes. 
Even down to border checkpoints if an Independent Scotland decided to have an immigration policy that varied too much from the United Kingdom.
Think of it like this if you moved to France you wouldn't expect to pay in Sterling and have Uk law applied you'd accept its an independent country and abide by its rules.
 In this case you are not only voting to have an Independent Scotland you are also voting to leave to United Kingdom at the same time. 
Different countries different rules and expecting the United Kingdom to be all benevolent whilst you vote to dismantle the Union is somewhat politically naive.

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## Big Gaz

so say independence goes ahead and the govt will honour any bills should Scotland default? Where is this money going to come from then because it sure won't be coming from Scotland and as we all know, England are now down a minimum 10% in their income. That in itself will surely cause problems?

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## RagnarRocks

It would cause a problem for the United Kingdom but it would be a greater problem for a newly independent Scotland that's just defaulted on its debts and has to go from day one to the money markets to borrow money. The rates you'd encountering would be punitive to say the least. no credit rating, no currency of its own ,no central bank and huge bills to pay.

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## vanman1

question for ragnarocks why is westminster threating scotland with losing the pound. and why is westminster so keen on keeping scotland in the union

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## golach

> question for ragnarocks why is westminster threating scotland with losing the pound. and why is westminster so keen on keeping scotland in the union


Why not? We are better together.

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## ducati

Just going back to the original question does anyone care what the rest of the UK think? According to BBC Scotland it is one of the top ten concerns.

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## RagnarRocks

> question for ragnarocks why is westminster threating scotland with losing the pound. and why is westminster so keen on keeping scotland in the union


Westminster isn't threatening Scotland with anything. 
Westminster is simply stating the point that as an independent sovereign country it has no desire to share a currency union with another independent country. 
That's not a threat its just what is seen as best for the United Kingdom....

Say you where married and shared all your money for bills then got divorced would you still think it fair to let your ex decide how you spent your money and what decisions you could make with it .... I doubt you would. That's a somewhat Simple analogy but sort of fits .

Now Vanman answer me this .

If you want Independence why on earth would you want the United Kingdom deciding what you can spend and borrow and tax surely you'd want your own currency and autonomy  or are you just scared of the realities of what true independence means.

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## vanman1

i aint scared just looking at what scotland gives the uk in taxes from oil, whisky etc and what we get back from westminster. thats why westminster needs scotland as we put more into the pot than the rest of uk . westminster needs our money simple

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## Mrs Bradey

> i aint scared just looking at what scotland gives the uk in taxes from oil, whisky etc and what we get back from westminster. thats why westminster needs scotland as we put more into the pot than the rest of uk . westminster needs our money simple


have you heard of the barnet  formula? Scotland receives 4% more per head from Westminster than the rest of the UK!

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## Alrock

> I am saddened by the divide that has already been created. Whether or not Scotland becomes independent the demon has been released from its box. I think every Scottish voter should have had a vote to see if we wanted the question of independance to be asked.  If the population wanted a vote on independance then the Scottish government could have gone ahead with preparations of a referendum.


Nah.... Maybe a vote to see if we wanted a vote to see if we wanted the question of independence to be asked.

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## golach

> i aint scared just looking at what scotland gives the uk in taxes from oil, whisky etc and what we get back from westminster. thats why westminster needs scotland as we put more into the pot than the rest of uk . westminster needs our money simple


How much does the UK earn from Scottish Whisky? I assume you are referring to the duty, if so 90% of Scotch goes for export, and is therefore duty free, so nothing goes into the Treasury

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## RagnarRocks

> i aint scared just looking at what scotland gives the uk in taxes from oil, whisky etc and what we get back from westminster. thats why westminster needs scotland as we put more into the pot than the rest of uk . westminster needs our money simple


That's not an answer to the question,its an excuse for wanting to retain sterling,after independence you wouldn't be paying anything  to westminster. 

So in clear English

 Why  is it you do not want a new currency for an Independent Scotland ?

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## gerry4

Another analysis of todays events. Things are not as clear cut as some folks think.

http://www.futureukandscotland.ac.uk...s-legal-issues

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## RagnarRocks

> Another analysis of todays events. Things are not as clear cut as some folks think.http://www.futureukandscotland.ac.uk...s-legal-issues


Funny how these articles are popping up from around Holyrood. The currency debate has been had Mr Salmond has now been told there is no negotiation on currency. The weak argument of Scotland doesn't own any part of the a national debt is as weak as his position on entry into Europe. If you don't let us straight in we won't let you fish in the North Sea. He has all the credibility of a mafia extortionist.

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## Bobinovich

> Say you where married and shared all your money for bills then got divorced would you still think it fair to let your ex decide how you spent your money and what decisions you could make with it .... I doubt you would. That's a somewhat Simple analogy but sort of fits.


Actually I find it a reasonable analogy in that the starting point in most divorce negotiations is an even split, and the general direction from there is divide sensibly to leave both sides worse off than they would be together, but still capable of financial security independently, i.e. neither disadvantaged to the point of destitution.

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## Tubthumper

Bob, Osbourne's waffle today reflects the meanness of spirit we've learned to expect from our near neighbour. If they can't have it their way they'd rather see us destitute. It's a trait I've noticed a lot in middle england (you know, the wet bit), even in those who've moved from Scotland to down there.
 It is not possible for him or his muppets to state what is and isn't up for negotiation at this point. 
The more I see of these fools the more I desire to get away from them. I sense that Mr Alexander might be slightly embarrassed at his latest stance. That's OK, he sold out long ago.

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## RagnarRocks

> Bob, Osbourne's waffle today reflects the meanness of spirit we've learned to expect from our near neighbour. If they can't have it their way they'd rather see us destitute. It's a trait I've noticed a lot in middle england (you know, the wet bit), even in those who've moved from Scotland to down there. It is not possible for him or his muppets to state what is and isn't up for negotiation at this point. The more I see of these fools the more I desire to get away from them. I sense that Mr Alexander might be slightly embarrassed at his latest stance. That's OK, he sold out long ago.


By the way UKIP also say No to currency union. 
Its not meanness of spirit to tell an independent country they can't expect another independent country to exert influence on their own currency underwrite their banks its normal financial sense. 
The United Kingdom hasn't said its not prepared to negotiate on other issues what it has said is the currency is not up for negotiation. 

Ask yourself this question say you have a currency union and the rest of the UK is doing particularly well inflation is up, interest rates are up, public borrowing is down. But newly independent Scotland isn't fairing so well, would you really want to be tied to a currency where you can't borrow more, your inflation is soaring,interest rates up up around 10% or more you can't tax more to raise money . Would you really want to inflict that on Scotland, its very easy to look at the financial situation as it is now but look at what the consequences could be, then consider is it really in Scotland's best interests.
 Yet the SNP still insist its in our best interest to link ourselves to a currency which we have no control over. I just think the SNP haven't a clue what to do now,they have no credible plan B.

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## ducati

I wonder if the vote will come down to age. On the assumption that older people are more risk averse and younger people are more likely to suck it and see.

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## Big Gaz

> By the way UKIP also say No to currency union. 
> Its not meanness of spirit to tell an independent country they can't expect another independent country to exert influence on their own currency underwrite their banks its normal financial sense. 
> The United Kingdom hasn't said its not prepared to negotiate on other issues what it has said is the currency is not up for negotiation. 
> 
> Ask yourself this question say you have a currency union and the rest of the UK is doing particularly well inflation is up, interest rates are up, public borrowing is down. But newly independent Scotland isn't fairing so well, would you really want to be tied to a currency where you can't borrow more, your inflation is soaring,interest rates up up around 10% or more you can't tax more to raise money . Would you really want to inflict that on Scotland, its very easy to look at the financial situation as it is now but look at what the consequences could be, then consider is it really in Scotland's best interests.
>  Yet the SNP still insist its in our best interest to link ourselves to a currency which we have no control over. I just think the SNP haven't a clue what to do now,they have no credible plan B.


Guess that's UKIP just lost about 1 million voters....

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## RagnarRocks

> I wonder if the vote will come down to age. On the assumption that older people are more risk averse and younger people are more likely to suck it and see.


You making fruity offers. Nods as good as a wink to a blind donkey :0)

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## ducati

Back to the pound. Listening to A.S. on the news this morning, I don't think I have ever seen someone with their head so deeply buried in the sand.

I have to think he knew about this anouncment well in advance and has done nothing. So I have to ask, how many other issues is he ignoring and hoping they will go away?

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## RagnarRocks

> Back to the pound. Listening to A.S. on the news this morning, I don't think I have ever seen someone with their head so deeply buried in the sand.I have to think he knew about this anouncment well in advance and has done nothing. So I have to ask, how many other issues is he ignoring and hoping they will go away?


Well lets see..

 Europe and quick entry into it ...not a done deal by any means.. 
 United Nations. ..ditto 
 The Commonwealth...
 NATO ....
 The realities are he is a chancer pushing for Independence,producing a white paper with no detail . 
 I've no issue with Scotland being Independent if the questions have sensible answers but when everything is left with the answer, it will be negotiated after the fact it becomes a farce. The SNP are tugging on the emotional heart strings of Scots but sailing them up the river by not answering difficult questions honestly and in detail.

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## jax

> I wonder if the vote will come down to age. On the assumption that older people are more risk averse and younger people are more likely to suck it and see.


Interesting point, I thought this is why allowing 16year olds to vote as they are very easily influenced

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## Mrs Bradey

> That's not an answer to the question,its an excuse for wanting to retain sterling,after independence you wouldn't be paying anything  to westminster. So in clear English Why  is it you do not want a new currency for an Independent Scotland ?


many in Scotland ( and the rest of the UK ) trade in the black market for cash, sometimes having hundreds of thousands of pounds stirling hidden from the taxman! maybe there is a stash of cash at vanman hq that would need to be explained!

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## Phill

I'm finding it quite funny all this nonsense about the pound. It's really quite pathetic that this no brainer is being played out as a surprise and becoming quite devisive. The language being used is at retard level, and many are reducing themselves to this level.

There was never going to be a currency union whilst the (r)UK govt doesn't want Scotland to be independant, this was clear to anyone, and why would any nation agree to one with one that has just split?
Now, it's a union that has been declined, Scotland can use whatever currency it wants. Idiot Lords on TV last night suggesting it would have to revert to using Bitcoin is the level of fecktardiness we're at.

Mr Salmond whilst he thinks he's playing a cute political game, and Gideon & Co are playing into his hands, is looking more and more like an idiot on the world stage. It is cheapening (pun intrended) the entire referendum debate and is becoming a smoke screen from the bigger issues that need addressed. And that is the worrying part.

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## RagnarRocks

I think you'll find he wasn't being serious when he said Bitcoins merely making a point

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## Phill

That Stasi loon was trying to create even more pointless fear with some clever use of language. That man has seriously gone down in my opinion, a cretinous muppet spouting rubbish.

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## maverick

It has become more than clear that the UK government PLC no longer cares for it's people. I would like to see how the Scottish people would fare any better under a Scottish government. What if any constitutional arrangements would be put in place to protect the people of Scotland against lets say corrupt politicians?

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## Phill

Sadly, whoever or whatever you vote for, that is what you will get.
Why do you think the SNP are so keen to get into bed with the EU, an immense hotbed of corruption. So much so they cover up the report they commissioned into corruption!

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## jax

Corrupt polititions your having a laugh ain't you? There all corrupt in my opinion

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## Trajan

just as a point of interest did the uk not let ireland and other former colonies of the british empire share the pound, and did we not just bail out the bank of ireland a foreign country, but a few years ago,
and can anyone explain why non of the former colonies ever wanted back into being governed from westminster, and there were lots of them, they cant all be wrong can they ?
for the british nationalists and the scottish nationalists on the forum, opinions welcome.

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## ducati

> just as a point of interest did the uk not let ireland and other former colonies of the british empire share the pound, and did we not just bail out the bank of ireland a foreign country, but a few years ago,
> and can anyone explain why non of the former colonies ever wanted back into being governed from westminster, and there were lots of them, they cant all be wrong can they ?
> for the british nationalists and the scottish nationalists on the forum, opinions welcome.


Most of the colonies were part of an empire gained through subjugation and slavery. Why would they want back in?

An adventure that the Scots were enthusiastic participents in.

There are still many British dependencies around the world that presumably have the option to go. But they don't.

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## Mrs Bradey

> Most of the colonies were part of an empire gained through subjugation and slavery. Why would they want back in?An adventure that the Scots were enthusiastic participents in.There are still many British dependencies around the world that presumably have the option to go. But they don't.


gibralter and the falklands to name but two!

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## RagnarRocks

I think you'll find that the British Empire was dissolved for the main part as part of the lease lend agreement WWII what we now have in its place is the commonwealth.
 The Irish Banks where bailed out as it was seen to be in the interest of the United Kingdom due to the amount of trade with have with Eire.
 Although what either of these subjects has to do with independence I'm not sure. 

People keep making the big issue about Westminster being hundreds of miles away so I wonder how they think larger countries manage I.E Australia, Canada, USA, India, Russia, China, Germany, France to name but a few.

And as many have noted the Independence  debate is fuelled by one political party whilst it may be a close run referendum which won't be decided until after the day we still have maybe a million people dictating the future of a large percentage of the Scottish population who have no desire to cede from the Union. This also includes the unprecedented decision to lower the voting age.

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## Trajan

thanks ducati, 
but im thinking more of  countries like canada ,australia ,newzealand ,south africa, ireland , why did they all want to leave, is it a case of your not a real country unless you control your own future and finances ?
they are or were all british after all, i have lots of family in canada and australia and they say the scots would be fools not to grab independence while we can, no matter the consequences, these countries have flourished even if it was a bit of a slog to begin with,
anyway my point on the irish still stands why did we bail out a foreign bank and why did the irish use sterling until recent times, bearing in mind they had to use violence and not the ballot box to gain their independence.
ohh and it was not just the scots who were enthusiastic participents in empire building for the english aristocracy, you could say the same for the irish the welsh the german merceneries etc etc etc and any other nationality that has had a hand in forming and maintaining the british empire for cash or land grants.

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## squidge

> It has become more than clear that the UK government PLC no longer cares for it's people. I would like to see how the Scottish people would fare any better under a Scottish government. What if any constitutional arrangements would be put in place to protect the people of Scotland against lets say corrupt politicians?


There is already work going on to develop a written constitution Maverick which will enshrine things like free education, free NHS, no WMD, right to housing as fundamental rights for Scottish Citizens,  I also understand it will set out the arrangements to protect people from corrupt politicians and other basic citizens rights.I would expect that it would make sure that Scotland cant just be turned back into a part of the UK also.  Of course today we have heard that Westminster have decided not to continue with their bill which would have given constituents the right to get rid of politicians found guilty of wrongdoing. There's a surprise then! 

I admit I was surprised that the gang of three decided to say what they did yesterday - surprised and rather pleased because my preference is for a stand alone currency.  When you add to the pot that a senior coalition member says that even if Scotland voted YES Westminster would veto Independence unless they got all their own way I realised this was really all kidology.  

Nicola Sturgeon said that there are plenty of options for Scotland's currency after independence - the SNP will continue to argue for a currency union because that is what they believe is the best option.  Lets watch this space!

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## RagnarRocks

At that time there where also the French, Spanish,Germans,Russians, Italians all expanding their spheres of influence it just happens that the British Empire was a bit more successful it also included Noble Born Scots and Welsh not just English. Many men of humble beginnings made large fortunes through the Empire.

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## RagnarRocks

> There is already work going on to develop a written constitution Maverick which will enshrine things like free education, free NHS, no WMD, right to housing as fundamental rights for Scottish Citizens,  I also understand it will set out the arrangements to protect people from corrupt politicians and other basic citizens rights.I would expect that it would make sure that Scotland cant just be turned back into a part of the UK also.  Of course today we have heard that Westminster have decided not to continue with their bill which would have given constituents the right to get rid of politicians found guilty of wrongdoing. There's a surprise then! I admit I was surprised that the gang of three decided to say what they did yesterday - surprised and rather pleased because my preference is for a stand alone currency.  When you add to the pot that a senior coalition member says that even if Scotland voted YES Westminster would veto Independence unless they got all their own way I realised this was really all kidology.  Nicola Sturgeon said that there are plenty of options for Scotland's currency after independence - the SNP will continue to argue for a currency union because that is what they believe is the best option.  Lets watch this space!


The problem with written constitutions is they may be great when they are written with the passage of time they become problematic. Look at the USA with the right to bear arms.
 A legal system that evolves to suit the people it serves is generally considered much preferential. 
The United Kingdoms legal system is globally considered one of the fairest in the world. Its not perfect but it does serve the people from the problems that have seen many of our close neighbours suffer. 
We could talk about Germany and the Third Reich. Vichy France. Italy and Mussolini. Spain and Franco. Russia and China with the oppression of the communist era.
 Compared to many countries our parliament has generally been fairly benevolent to its people. It didn't even suffer the McCarthyism and segregation of the USA. 
The primary function of the foundation of the EU was to stop nationalism rising in Europe again due to the problems it creates.
Why would Scotland need it written into a constitution to stop it re-entering the Uk if its people wish it surely if people can have a referendum to leave they can have one to re-enter. There we have a very simple attempt to stop the future democratic choices the people of Scotland may wish to make.
Notably the SNP haven't mentioned any of the other currency options in their white paper I wouldn't consider that competent behaviour for a politician. Yet more smoke and mirrors from the SNP. 
Currently all citizen of the United Kingdom enjoy the protection of the Human Rights bill a newly independent Scotland would neither be a member of Europe nor of the United Nations so in this case you'd have no rights unless the new government gives them to you.

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## Trajan

ohh it seems that ragnar rocks answered my irish question, thanks ragnar,
The Irish Banks where bailed out as it was seen to be in the interest of the United Kingdom due to the amount of trade wee have with Eire.
it wasnt seen to be, it was the case,
bearing that in mind you could say the same for scotland ,could you not, seeing as we are a bigger trading partner than the irish free state.
only one question left then , why were all these former colonies now great countries allowed to use sterling until they launched their own currencies,
or is this sterling question just an anti scottish thing ?. bearing in mind we have been using it for as long as everyone else in the UK

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## RagnarRocks

I think you'll find each of those countries used sterling many years ago and under different circumstances, this is a modern financial system we are talking about in the case of a currency union it would mean Scotland ceding powers to the United Kingdom such as interest rates, taxation it would also require the Bank of England to act as lender of last resort to Scotland in case of financial problems. These are the issue that make it unfavourable for the rest of the United Kingdom it may be better for Scotland but not for rUK. I could be wrong but I think Eire is a very large trading partner larger than Scotland so its always what's in the best interests of the country. And the final answer is I don't think you'd find anyone would be allowed a currency union where it to happen now. The Welsh First Minister has already stated he wouldn't be happy about it. The consideration in this is not necessarily what keeps a newly independent Scotland happy population 2 million ish bit what keeps rUK happy population 63 million ish. Westminster has to safe guard its electorate not the electorate of a country that has left the Union.

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## Trajan

well that sounds very fair and reasonable ragnor rocks,
i personnaly dont want a currency union, im all for our own currency, but as i thought as a highland scot, the UK would have given us a few years grace to use sterling until we could get our own currency off the ground, 
bearing in mind what scots and our resources have contributed to the UK over the years , but it seems not, it is very bitter of them in IMHO, and im afraid you will see lots of dont knows turning into yes votes,
my own family who were split 50/50 in the household are now all yes voters, thats an extra 4 votes for independence overnight, we scots dont like being bullied especially by a bunch of elitist toffs who seem to run our country now,
a minority group i may add, what ever happened to the working classes in parliament.

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## RagnarRocks

If you're a Scotsman you may consider it unfair but what you have to remember is your vote is not only a vote for independence it is also a vote to leave the Union.  Scotland has indeed contributed much to the Union hence the Unions desire for it to stay a part of it. But Independence is what it says Independent of another country, the burden should be on Scotland to stand on its own two feet should it desire  independence. Not to hang on to the finances of the United Kingdom. Its a bit like getting divorced and still expecting nookie afterward with no strings, nice idea but not very realistic :0))

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## bekisman

You're right *Rags.*.

THE First Minister of Wales has warned that the principality  would try to block attempts to create a currency union between an independent  Scotland and the rest of the UK. Labour's Carwyn Jones claimed in a speech to  Edinburgh University that the SNP's plan to share the pound and Bank of England  within a common sterling zone would put Welsh taxpayers at risk. Mr Jones  insisted that trade and currency lay at the heart of the "positive case" for the  Union. He issued a stark warning for his opposite number at Holyrood, Alex  Salmond, saying: "_If one part of the currency union decides to leave, then  that is a matter for them._ _But if an independent nation wants to join,  then that is a matter for the people of Wales, Northern Ireland and England -  and as the First Minister of Wales, I would want the right to have a  say"_

NB. English, Welsh and Northern Irish would need to approve  Scottish currency union, Johann Lamont, the Scottish Labour leader, said she  could not imagine taxpayers in the remainder of the UK signing up to a currency  union that would see them become liable for bailing out a separate Scotland’s  banks. 
She questioned how any UK Government could persuade people south  of the Border to “do us a favour” immediately after Scots had voted to end the  Union. Willie Rennie, her Liberal Democrat counterpart,  warned that the English, Welsh and Northern Irish “may just lock the door from  the other side” after Scotland had departed the UK.  

Some call the English 'Elitist toffs', good god man; grow up!. Ed Balls 'Elitist?' you're aving a laugh! Seems to me it's the Nats stirring up anti-English rhetoric - and unfortunately a lot are swallowing it. But not it seems the majority of voters up here in Scotland. PLEASE don't tar everyone with the same brush.

It's gratifying to note that this anti-Scots does not show itself in England to such a degree.

Comparison of  Scottish born people living elsewhere in the UK with people living in Scotland but born elsewhere in the UK  

People born in England but living in  Scotland  408,948 People born in Scotland but living in England 794,577
 
Anyway when's Paxman going to maul Alex again?

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## squidge

You are right rags i didnt make myself clear. I understand that the plan for a constitution is considering including something which would prevent Scotland being returned to the UK immediately without a referendum. Its also going to be open to public involvement. Iceland have done this with quite a few problems it has to be said and yet switzerland engage with their electorate at every level - interesting times

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## RagnarRocks

> You are right rags i didnt make myself clear. I understand that the plan for a constitution is considering including something which would prevent Scotland being returned to the UK immediately without a referendum. Its also going to be open to public involvement. Iceland have done this with quite a few problems it has to be said and yet switzerland engage with their electorate at every level - interesting times


Have you been to Switzerland hell they have referendums on everything but it doesn't change much. Constitutions are inherently rigid and inflexible articles of there time they always run into problems as time and people's opinions change, societies evolve, constitutions don't and there within lies the problem.

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## RagnarRocks

> well that sounds very fair and reasonable ragnor rocks,i personnaly dont want a currency union, im all for our own currency, but as i thought as a highland scot, the UK would have given us a few years grace to use sterling until we could get our own currency off the ground, bearing in mind what scots and our resources have contributed to the UK over the years , but it seems not, it is very bitter of them in IMHO, and im afraid you will see lots of dont knows turning into yes votes,my own family who were split 50/50 in the household are now all yes voters, thats an extra 4 votes for independence overnight, we scots dont like being bullied especially by a bunch of elitist toffs who seem to run our country now,a minority group i may add, what ever happened to the working classes in parliament.


You see I find your rhetoric interesting. A currency Union was never a guarantee infact it was only offered as a Negotiation by the SNP but it would seem your family consider a sovereign nation saying prior to the referendum that currency is not a negotiable article an act of Bullying. The reality is the SNP wrote its white paper and floated the idea obviously without consulting the Treasury, The Bank of England, The Chancellor, any of the other First Ministers nor the 63 million voters who are not residing in Scotland and now has the mendacity to accuse everyone else of bullying.  If I told everyone you where going to let me use your bank account would you consider yourself a bully for saying No or would I be for assuming its ok prior to telling everyone about it.Many MPs in parliament aren't elitist toffs as you call them, but for once they all put aside their own political differences and did what they consider best for rUK . I'd say the bullying is coming from the SNP not from Westminster.

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## Trajan

who is calling the english elitist toffs im talking about the tory party and the cabinet in particular, you people do love putting words in peoples mouths,
and who is edd balls,? sounds like a retired pornstar, lol. anyway i will leave you till it , its nice to be degenerated for asking a few questions.

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## RagnarRocks

> who is calling the english elitist toffs im talking about the tory party and the cabinet in particular, you people do love putting words in peoples mouths,and who is edd balls,? sounds like a retired pornstar, lol. anyway i will leave you till it , its nice to be degenerated for asking a few questions.


No one denigrated you no one put words in your mouth. Parliament as a whole runs the country one party happens to be in charge but everything in the case of currency the conservatives, labour, lib-dems and UKIP all spoke as one voice which is more than can be said for Scotland where the SNP is speaking on behalf of no one else they are the only party insisting on currency union the only party for Independence. So in ruk we have cross party consensus 4 Parties speaking as one. in Scotland we have the SNP alone.

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## Trajan

thanks for the reply ragnor, without taking the pee,
my heart says vote yes, but my brain is undecided, i aint really interested in party politics, it stifles democracy ,but i do no strathy very well, maybe i will give beks a wee drop in for tea, see if she is such a smart arse in person, seeing as everyone knows the white settlers up that way, i am more of an actions person than a words person, thanks for your time, food for thought for sure, got a dinner date with ere indoors, the one that must be loved, lol,
take care, these are troubled times for the people of the british isles :Wink: .

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## ducati

> take care, these are troubled times for the people of the british isles.


Yes, I will hate Nationalists till the day I die for trying to frack up my future.

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## Southern-Gal

If the vote is yes will the Scottish banks that were recently bailed out and kept afloat by the British pound hand it back?

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## RagnarRocks

Those banks are majority share owned by the government at the moment. So I would think they would be a key area of negotiation in light of the threat by the SNP to default on debt. No Currency and Banks owned by rUK Ltd could put the SNP on a bit of a sticky wicket when it comes to negotiations on what they will and won't do.

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## Phill

A written constitution to stop political corruption! That'll have 'em quaking in their boots. To try and peddle that as some blarney excuse that Scotland will become some utopian state is twisted beyond belief.

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## RagnarRocks

> thanks for the reply ragnor, without taking the pee,my heart says vote yes, but my brain is undecided, i aint really interested in party politics, it stifles democracy ,but i do no strathy very well, maybe i will give beks a wee drop in for tea, see if she is such a smart arse in person, seeing as everyone knows the white settlers up that way, i am more of an actions person than a words person, thanks for your time, food for thought for sure, got a dinner date with ere indoors, the one that must be loved, lol,take care, these are troubled times for the people of the british isles.


In view of your comment about disliking party politics may I ask what you'd prefer to have in its place ? Dictatorship under the auspice of a one party state. 
A little more food for thought, at the moment pro union politicians are being quite forthright and open as to the possibilities for an independent Scotland the pros and cons. You heard the Chancellor the other day give quite a thorough explanation as to why currency union wasn't on the table can you honestly say the SNP have provided you with such an in depth explanation of how it should work, what the alternatives are, what happens if they don't get the currency union, what the effect on your wages, living costs will be or have the answered it in three words Bluff bluster bullying !
 I don't profess to be Scottish or Pro independence but I do believe in honesty and integrity and doing a job well. As far as I can see when each non thought through process Mr Salmond puts on the table is dismantled he calls it bullying that may appeal to the Heart of Scotsman but it doesn't answer what will happen to his money, family life and way of living if Mr Salmond isn't being forthright and honest.
 At the very least the SNP should be able to stand up to the public in Scotland and answer tough questions on the economy instead of resorting to name calling and bluster. 
If no currency union what is plan B. 
If we hit a financial crisis what will that mean in real terms. 
If we don't get into Europe what is the alternative.
 Its no good saying give me a vote and I will negotiate after the fact its too late then you've cut the umbilical cord the babies been born.

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## maverick

> There is already work going on to develop a written constitution Maverick which will enshrine things like free education, free NHS, no WMD, right to housing as fundamental rights for Scottish Citizens,  I also understand it will set out the arrangements to protect people from corrupt politicians and other basic citizens rights.I would expect that it would make sure that Scotland cant just be turned back into a part of the UK also.  Of course today we have heard that Westminster have decided not to continue with their bill which would have given constituents the right to get rid of politicians found guilty of wrongdoing. There's a surprise then! 
> 
> I admit I was surprised that the gang of three decided to say what they did yesterday - surprised and rather pleased because my preference is for a stand alone currency.  When you add to the pot that a senior coalition member says that even if Scotland voted YES Westminster would veto Independence unless they got all their own way I realised this was really all kidology.  
> 
> Nicola Sturgeon said that there are plenty of options for Scotland's currency after independence - the SNP will continue to argue for a currency union because that is what they believe is the best option.  Lets watch this space!


Oh that's nice squidge, could we please have it in the constitution to have the right to bear arms, so we can defend our children when the policy enforcement officers come round to take them away, because the state appointed responsible person who each child will have, is saying that we are bad to them. By the way Nicola Sturgeon & Co couldn't lie straight in their beds.

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## Oddquine

> Those banks are majority share owned by the government at the moment. So I would think they would be a key area of negotiation in light of the threat by the SNP to default on debt. No Currency and Banks owned by rUK Ltd could put the SNP on a bit of a sticky wicket when it comes to negotiations on what they will and won't do.


Explain your reasoning, pretty please!

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## RagnarRocks

> Explain your reasoning, pretty please!


Ok quite easy at the moment we have a No to currency union which puts the SNP in the position of not having a credible Plan B for a newly independent Scotland's currency but they have threatened not to accept their fair share of the National debt. Then we have the government as a majority shareholder in RBS so banks are a major factor in the day to day financial running of any economy. If ruk maintains its position of no currency union and retains a majority share in Scotland's largest Bank due to the SNP refusing to bear their fair share of debt it places much more of a newly independent Scotland's economy at the mercy of Ruks government. Its ok saying we can use the pound but if you have no control over your currency or banks it places you in a tricky position when it comes to negotiation. A government without a currency or an Independent banking system could hardly be said to be in control of its Economy. I've heard Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeons constant assurances that everything will be ok and the its all bluff bluster and bullying but a vital part of independence for the average man in the street is Money if the SNP fails to put forward credible plans for a currency or a banking system then that's two quite large factors which should worry the average man/woman in the street. All the political rhetoric in the world is wonderful but without the real nuts and bolts its just meaningless talk. A country may be able to Toodle along without its own currency but without some control over banks its all meaningless. So far all I've heard is name calling from the SNP but no alternatives or in depth analysis.In my view its just another part of the SNPs plans that seem to be unravelling and now they are appealing to the more base aspects of Independence with raw nationalism.

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## Trajan

Dictatorship under the auspice of a one party state
dear me RR you peeps on this site like to put words in other peeps mouths, how did you come too that conclusion anyway, lol,your not fresh from the ussr or romania are you, you seem very paranoid,
sterling is a doomed currency anyway , you can kiss your pension and your currency bye bye within the next 10 years anyway, britain is bankrupt, not that any westminster politician will tell you that, but thats what 60 years of failed governments gets you,
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pensions/pensions-in-the-national-accounts/uk-national-accounts-supplementary-table-on-pensions--2010-/index.html
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-1...ations-321-gdp
we are 5 trillion in debt run up by successive uk governments.who should have dealt with this problem 30 or 40 years ago
your man mr cameron wasnt joking when he was saying broken britain, its beyond broken,and he knows it.
we as a small country just want out , small countries with lots of resources and talented people do very well in western europe just look at denmark, norway, sweden, belgium,holland,switzeland etc etc,even ireland has a better standard of living than we do,no foodbanks there, britain is not a world power,we lost ww2, get over it, the empire is dead, christ we cant even arm our troops properly, yes there is lots of money here, 4th richest in the world they say, only because the super wealthy can fiddle the tax system legally,and remove there wealth at the drop of a hat,the bottom line is, do people in scotland with our wealth of talent and resources wish to fund london and the south east anymore or is it time too look after our families and loved ones,
and as others have mentioned on this thread why is the uk so keen to keep a bunch of scots spongers in the union, maybe you should go and find out how much tax the uk government makes off fuel duty, ie the tax they put on petrol and diesel once it is refined by the oil companies,and sold on as new product, and the taxes on the petro chem industry make, very hard figures too find even on the tinterweb, you can easily find what the uk government charges oil companies for extracting the stuff per barrel,
there is still a trillion pounds worth of the stuff in the north sea and thats a mild estimate, and thats just of what we know of, i work in this industry and it makes me laugh when i see the bull that comes out of westminster, yes they make a 12 or 16 billion a year taxing the oil companies for what they extract but no mention of when said companies refine the stuff and it sell own to joe blogs as a new product ready for another range of taxes,
open your eyes folks we are one of the most richest countries in the world, with such a small populace, time to decide very soon , the scots or the south east of england, and london ,stark choice but sums it up nicely.

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## vanman1

trajans last post sums it up nicely. now ragnar you know it, westminster knows its and thats why thier running scared.

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## Phill

Just because you get rid of a two party political system doesn't mean it's replaced by one party dictatorship. FFS, people need to get in the real world.The current UK 2 party system needs to be smashed. All we have is two lots of millionaire yahoos in a phishing competition.And before the utopian rose tinted glass wearing perfect worlders come along, in an Indy Scotland, you will need to break the SNP too.Best outcome is a Yes in the referendum, but a mandate HAS to be made for an EU referendum. (See how the UK one has been quietly removed from the people by EU (corrupt) Lords)Having then removed 60 or so MP's the power balance in Westminster becomes a little fragile. At that point, the rUK need to wake up and smell the coffee, and shake the tree.Stop voting for Labour because that's what your parents did, and stop voting for Tory because it might make you feel 10p richer tomorrow. Find small party or independent MP's and regain democracy.

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## RagnarRocks

Just to make this clear I'm not afraid of anything but I do enjoy living in a democratic country. It sounds more like revolutionary rants from Trajan and Vanman you can't even hold a debate without personalising things and reducing your arguments to petty name calling and expletives. But still you try and claim the moral high ground you. But of course you'll now try and convince me that you're sane and rational. All I see is rather excitable nationalist unable to hold a rational debate.

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## RagnarRocks

Trajan  if you're going to quote me keep it in context . 
I asked what you'd prefer ? Dictatorship under the auspices of a one party state....maybe you shouldn't get so excited and learn to comprehend the English language or was it the typical nationalist trick of only quote  the bit that suits you.
But I can tell from you're little diatribe that you have one political view and have believed everything you've been told. 

Have you ever visited the countries you mention or just read about them ? 
Have you served in the armed forces to be able to comment on the equipment ? 
Or have you just swallowed a lot of other people's ideas and not actually managed to form your own opinions.

As for Vanmans assertion the banks are owned by the public, can you pop round to my place and show me your share certificates if not then accept its under government control
 I also have no need to resort to low level expletives to get my point across not scared in the slightest just debating the issues a bit more thoroughly than you seem able to do. 
I've lived in other countries under different legals systems and different countries.
 I've served in the armed forces and had to deal with nationalism first hand. 
I've travelled quite extensively can you honestly say you've seen and experienced any of the things you rant about.

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## Southern-Gal

Scotland has a lot of natural resources. But WHO owns the companies based here to extract the oil, pipe the gas and harness the wind power? If the vote is yes and the pound cant stay how would the foreign companies based here manage in the interim? 
Imagine a few months of no pay then times the hassle by whatever your mind can imagine, it would likely be a catastrophe for foreign businesses based here. Do they have a say?

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## Phill

Sorry but that is a bit of 'sky falling in mentality'. It is a refusal of a currency UNION, not a refusal to use the pound.
Multinational companies trade in various currencies, small business' trade in different currencies. It really is no biggy.
Yes, until there is a sound resolution it will have an impact on investment but for existing Co's, life will go on.

Mr Salmond however needs to start pulling some realities together and present a solution to how the country will move forward rather than playing the schoolyard victim.

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## jax

> Scotland has a lot of natural resources. But WHO owns the companies based here to extract the oil, pipe the gas and harness the wind power? If the vote is yes and the pound cant stay how would the foreign companies based here manage in the interim? Imagine a few months of no pay then times the hassle by whatever your mind can imagine, it would likely be a catastrophe for foreign businesses based here. Do they have a say?


Interesting point. I also thought most of the major companies were all foreign owned? I'm hoping someone can come back with correct facts about this?

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## ducati

> Interesting point. I also thought most of the major companies were all foreign owned? I'm hoping someone can come back with correct facts about this?


Yes they are. Apart from a few support companies like Wood Group. The whole of Scotland's industry and production and services is owned in very high proportions by overseas companies. If you don't believe me Google.

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## ducati

> scared of scotland gaining independence.


I am, any rational person would be. (you need to read the forum rules BTW).

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## squidge

Most of the major companies are foreign owned but lets just look at these companies. They operate in africa, in former states of the USSR, in South america, in many places where security, economies, infrastructure is non existant or massively volatile or seriously dangerous. They deal with despots and dictators... Are we seriously saying these companies would be frightened away by Independence? Mrs Brady said shell are selling off and implied they are getting out. Here is the link so you can see. http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-...tland-26187875 BP recently announced more investment and so on. Scotland can afford to be independent, independence is not scaring off the oil companies.

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## Southern-Gal

> Sorry but that is a bit of 'sky falling in mentality'. It is a refusal of a currency UNION, not a refusal to use the pound.
> Multinational companies trade in various currencies, small business' trade in different currencies. It really is no biggy.
> Yes, until there is a sound resolution it will have an impact on investment but for existing Co's, life will go on.
> 
> Mr Salmond however needs to start pulling some realities together and present a solution to how the country will move forward rather than playing the schoolyard victim.



Not at all, I DO realise that another currency or solution is a possibility, Im not that silly that I think everyone will just give up at once. 
But in the adjustment phase what would happen? You only have to go to Tesco on Christmas Eve to see that a lot of people go from week to week and so do a lot of businesses, cash flow is so tight they don't have a choice. If there was a three month period of instability or no trading just exactly what would happen? A lot of people sit back and wait to see how things pan out before they spend any money or make any investment decisions, if that was the case I wonder what the result would be? I imagine, but don't know that a lot of people and businesses simply couldn't manage and would fold before a solution was available and implemented? As things stand all the information we are getting is it will be sorted when we get the 'yes'. It is just not good enough and certainly not going to instill confidence. 
On the what I hope is the tail end of the recession would the country stand it? If independence is a good idea why go for it now? Any business that is still up and running has already been through very tough economic times and needs time to get back on its' feet before another cash flow problem is dropped on it. 
I think that the bid for independence could and should have been better timed for it to succeed  :Smile:

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## Oddquine

> Ok quite easy at the moment we have a No to currency union which puts the SNP in the position of not having a credible Plan B for a newly independent Scotland's currency but they have threatened not to accept their fair share of the National debt. Then we have the government as a majority shareholder in RBS so banks are a major factor in the day to day financial running of any economy. If ruk maintains its position of no currency union and retains a majority share in Scotland's largest Bank due to the SNP refusing to bear their fair share of debt it places much more of a newly independent Scotland's economy at the mercy of Ruks government. Its ok saying we can use the pound but if you have no control over your currency or banks it places you in a tricky position when it comes to negotiation. A government without a currency or an Independent banking system could hardly be said to be in control of its Economy. I've heard Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeons constant assurances that everything will be ok and the its all bluff bluster and bullying but a vital part of independence for the average man in the street is Money if the SNP fails to put forward credible plans for a currency or a banking system then that's two quite large factors which should worry the average man/woman in the street. All the political rhetoric in the world is wonderful but without the real nuts and bolts its just meaningless talk. A country may be able to Toodle along without its own currency but without some control over banks its all meaningless. So far all I've heard is name calling from the SNP but no alternatives or in depth analysis.In my view its just another part of the SNPs plans that seem to be unravelling and now they are appealing to the more base aspects of Independence with raw nationalism.


But we *do* have a plan B and a plan C and a Plan D. I _told_ you plan B.or maybe it was C, I can't remember.. They are all in the White Paper.  Plan A was the one which fitted in with the Edinburgh agreement, which said......
_30. The United Kingdom and Scottish Governments are committed, through the  Memorandum of Understanding between them and others,  to working together on matters of mutual  interest and to the principles of good communication and mutual  respect.  The two governments have reached this agreement in that  spirit.  They look forward to a referendum that is legal and fair  producing a decisive and respected outcome.  The two governments are  committed to continue to work together constructively in the light of  the outcome, whatever it is, in the best interests of the people of  Scotland and of the rest of the United Kingdom._  So excuse _us_ if we wanted to make leaving the Union fair to _both_ sides in at least the short-term......while Westminster has been tearing the Agreement up and throwing it about like confetti.

http://www.adamsmith.org/news/press-...-pound-without

http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/money-...ping-the-pound

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/02/14/how-scotland-can-keep-the-pound/

http://www.cityam.com/blog/139231429...y-does-exactly

To hear Unionists, you'd really think that the authors of the White Paper had plucked currency options from thin air and written them on the back of the nearest fag packet. The commiittee which looked into currency options was _at the least_ as well qualified (and more unbiased) than anyone who has pontificated on it from the Unionist POV, and arguably more qualified.

But hey...if Unionists don't want an agreement which perhaps restricts Scottish monetary freedom, because it would *also* stop Westminster spending money they don't have as if it was going out of fashion,  then that is their prerogative. Doesn't bother me.

However, if Westminster is going to spend the rest of this campaign playing hardball down to their latest ploy of pretty much saying that unless we accept what they want re negotiations.....we ain't getting to go.....which is perceived as a threat 
http://www.heraldscotland.com/commen...bit.1392301333.......then they are welcome to reap the whirlwind.  The view from Wales http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wa...ottish-6708143

 You have been told all of this many times before..........you think maybe _this_ time you'll actually read links think about them and stop talking troch?

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## squidge

> Not at all, I DO realise that another currency or solution is a possibility, Im not that silly that I think everyone will just give up at once. But in the adjustment phase what would happen? You only have to go to Tesco on Christmas Eve to see that a lot of people go from week to week and so do a lot of businesses, cash flow is so tight they don't have a choice. If there was a three month period of instability or no trading just exactly what would happen? A lot of people sit back and wait to see how things pan out before they spend any money or make any investment decisions, if that was the case I wonder what the result would be? I imagine, but don't know that a lot of people and businesses simply couldn't manage and would fold before a solution was available and implemented? As things stand all the information we are getting is it will be sorted when we get the 'yes'. It is just not good enough and certainly not going to instill confidence. On the what I hope is the tail end of the recession would the country stand it? If independence is a good idea why go for it now? Any business that is still up and running has already been through very tough economic times and needs time to get back on its' feet before another cash flow problem is dropped on it. I think that the bid for independence could and should have been better timed for it to succeed


Im sure you arent as old as me Southern-gal but there is plenty of precedent to read up on about countries changing currencies. Probably most recently changing to the euro for Germany and France. There is much disparaging of the Euro with reference to Greece but the change for big countries and the effect on their population was minimal. Decimalisation in 1971 (altho im sure you are too young to remember  :Smile: ) happened fairly straightforwardly. Scotland is a wealthy country and will manage the change just like other countries do.

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## Mrs Bradey

> Most of the major companies are foreign owned but lets just look at these companies. They operate in africa, in former states of the USSR, in South america, in many places where security, economies, infrastructure is non existant or massively volatile or seriously dangerous. They deal with despots and dictators... Are we seriously saying these companies would be frightened away by Independence? Mrs Brady saikd shell are selling off and implied they are getting out. Here is the link so you can see. http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-...tland-26187875 BP recently announced more investment and so on. Scotland can afford to be independent, independence is not scaring off the oil companies.


 I did not say that Shell were selling off, Ducati did! I did not say Shell were bailing out, I inferred that this was what Ducati was infering!

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## squidge

Lol Sorry Mrs Bradey, sometimes all the negativity blurs into a great big homogenous mess. Im glad you didnt say it, i hope you dont think it either.  :Smile:

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## jax

> Yes they are. Apart from a few support companies like Wood Group. The whole of Scotland's industry and production and services is owned in very high proportions by overseas companies. If you don't believe me Google.


Thanks for coming back, I do believe this is true

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## Phill

> Not at all, I DO realise that another currency or solution is a possibility, Im not that silly that I think everyone will just give up at once. 
> But in the adjustment phase what would happen? You only have to go to Tesco on Christmas Eve to see that a lot of people go from week to week and so do a lot of businesses, cash flow is so tight they don't have a choice. If there was a three month period of instability or no trading just exactly what would happen?


There's not going to be a stop to the economy while a change is made. No business is going to collapse if there is any change.
Don't listen to the scaremongering from both camps, either side are saying the world will end if there is / isn't a currency union. It's crap.

Whatever an Indy Scotland uses, be it pound, poond, bitcoin, euro, dollar or monopoly money doesn't matter. Shops will trade, people with buy.
What may alter over time is the cost of living, but this is impacted by other factors such as share prices, interest rates and the trade ability of Scotland. etc. etc.

The impact is on how the economy is run, not what currency we use. But this will take time to trickle down.

edit: I deliberately wasn't going to put this in but hell.

The question of how the economy is going to be run is the bigger issue that Salmond is trying to deflect with the scaremongering tactics re CU. There are a lot of fiscal promises being made which will cost, but little in how this is to be paid for other than the magic Oil tree fund.
These promises are vote sweeteners which initially look like freebies for the punters, but nowt is free. This coud backfire and cost in high taxation, this leads to higher cost of living and then reduced investment from foreign Co's as high cost of employees. This then further reduces the GDP & catch 22 follows.

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## Mrs Bradey

> Lol Sorry Mrs Bradey, sometimes all the negativity blurs into a great big homogenous mess. Im glad you didnt say it, i hope you dont think it either.


I don't think that, but I do think some of the big multi nationals that have business interests in Scotland will have serious concerns about Scotland becoming independent, and I don't mean, because they won't want to deal with an independent country. I think that there is far too much uncertainty in relation to Scotlands independence, as has been said before, ie, currency,eu, Nato,education, immigration etc. we all know of the white paper, but what happens when the people of Scotland vote YES and then don't vote for the SNP in a general election?  surely all the political parties interested in governing a newly independent Scotland should be telling US how THEY eoukd run it!!!? I might be persuaded to vote YES if it was clear from the outset what may happen in this event!

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## Phill

> but what happens when the people of Scotland vote YES and then don't vote for the SNP in a general election?


That would be a result!

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## squidge

It would be a REAL result if we get REAL alternatives from both left, right and centre. Bring it on!

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## ducati

Do you really believe that our political system will change that much?

You can only vote for the people on the ballot paper.

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## Oddquine

> I don't think that, but I do think some of the big multi nationals that have business interests in Scotland will have serious concerns about Scotland becoming independent, and I don't mean, because they won't want to deal with an independent country. I think that there is far too much uncertainty in relation to Scotlands independence, as has been said before, ie, currency,eu, Nato,education, immigration etc. we all know of the white paper, but what happens when the people of Scotland vote YES and then don't vote for the SNP in a general election?  surely all the political parties interested in governing a newly independent Scotland should be telling US how THEY eoukd run it!!!? I might be persuaded to vote YES if it was clear from the outset what may happen in this event!


I should think they are all working on something. There are various Groups of all political opinions..and they all have their own visions of a future Scotland, even if they have not firmed up policy or all yet become a political party registered to stand in an independent Scotland.....and they encompass all shades of opinion from left to right. 

If you want to consider other options to the SNP.....try reading articles from

http://www.wealthynation.org/  which is right of centre

http://www.scottishdemocraticalliance.com/our-vision

http://www.scottishgreens.org.uk/independence/

http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/

There is no vision from any Unionist political party, and there is unlikely to be before September 18th, if they decide to register to stand in Scotland at all.......but there is 

http://www.labourforindy.com/

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## RagnarRocks

> Im sure you arent as old as me Southern-gal but there is plenty of precedent to read up on about countries changing currencies. Probably most recently changing to the euro for Germany and France. There is much disparaging of the Euro with reference to Greece but the change for big countries and the effect on their population was minimal. Decimalisation in 1971 (altho im sure you are too young to remember ) happened fairly straightforwardly. Scotland is a wealthy country and will manage the change just like other countries do.


Well I've met southern gal and I've got an inkling she isn't as young as you think she is she may well remember decimilastion.

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## RagnarRocks

> Do you really believe that our political system will change that much?You can only vote for the people on the ballot paper.


What's the old saying.  The more things change the more they stay the same :0))So we get a new country you'll still have the same politicians to vote for.

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## ducati

> Well I've met southern gal and I've got an inkling she isn't as young as you think she is she may well remember decimilastion.


Oh Oh Fail! Engage brain before opening mouth.  ::

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## RagnarRocks

> Oh Oh Fail! Engage brain before opening mouth.


I was commenting on Squidges patronising comments to southern gal I'd reckon they are close to the same age.

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## RagnarRocks

Well I've read the 4 articles on using the £ instead of a currency union nice to see you hold Scotland economy in such high esteem as Panama, Ecuador and El Salvador, can't say I'd really want to live in any of them. I'm no fan of independence but even I wouldn't draw comparisons to those three places. If you're going to compare things draw a comparison with a Modern Highly Industrialised European Country these are the countries that surround us and the ones we trade with to make money. Jersey as I've previously stated is a tax haven and has huge currency reserves so again not a like for like comparison.

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## Mrs Bradey

> It would be a REAL result if we get REAL alternatives from both left, right and centre. Bring it on!


exactly!....!

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## RagnarRocks

Interesting article from The Scotsman ...http://m.scotsman.com/news/brian-wil...luff-1-3307036

And a small piece from the CBI..http://www.cbi.org.uk/media-centre/p...-independence/

This is how Mr Salmond acts in reality http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...h-independence

What it means in real terms to the economy http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...esr?CMP=twt_gu

SNP undermines freedom of speech ...http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite...5#.Uv-lHssgGSM

Alex Salmond threatens Europe ...http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-unravels.html

Free and Fair or bullied and centralised ...http://www.thinkscotland.org/todays-...nkscotland.org

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## jax

Do you know what? This is mighty complicated for the ordinary bod like me. The endless studies to read omg I haven't the time or the inclination! Sad fact that it is. I'm not an intellectual and don't care to be one either. I started trying to follow so that I can make an informed decision but hey ho I can't be bothered at the moment, I have a life to lead.

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## squidge

> I was commenting on Squidges patronising comments to southern gal I'd reckon they are close to the same age.


You shouldnt judge everyone by the way you behave yourself Rags -  I was just being nice and complimentary...

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## squidge

> Do you know what? This is mighty complicated for the ordinary bod like me. The endless studies to read omg I haven't the time or the inclination! Sad fact that it is. I'm not an intellectual and don't care to be one either. I started trying to follow so that I can make an informed decision but hey ho I can't be bothered at the moment, I have a life to lead.


You are right jax - it is complicated.  The fact is that there is a load of info out there -i have been doing this for a couple of years now and its only fun if you are interested.  The key thing is to decide what is important to you and look at those things and make your decision based on what is important to YOU.  Thats all anyone can do.  Happy decision making

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## Southern-Gal

> Well I've met southern gal and I've got an inkling she isn't as young as you think she is she may well remember decimilastion.



No I don't remember decimalisation but if anyone wants to think I'm a slip of a girl I would be grateful if you wouldn't correct them in future  :: 

Seriously now yes I do remember the change to the euro for Ireland, it was terrible! Trying to buy a pony was a nightmare! And the hauliers just used the change of currency to rob the idiots who were daft enough to pay their rates. 
I do not mind admitting a change of currency worries me a lot.

Edited to add : The Irish dealers were absolutely DESPERATE to get their hands on sterling after the change to the euro. The buyers with pounds in their pocket were treated very well by the Irish at the time above the Dutch and other buyers. I could not understand why at the time, and still don't.

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## jax

> You are right jax - it is complicated.  The fact is that there is a load of info out there -i have been doing this for a couple of years now and its only fun if you are interested.  The key thing is to decide what is important to you and look at those things and make your decision based on what is important to YOU.  Thats all anyone can do.  Happy decision making


Thanks Squidge. Yes the decision is mine & I shall take it to my grave. I have many English friends & Scottish for that matter who all have their own twist on things & expectations. Maybe I was looking for an easy abbreviated answer for me to make a simple choice but no, I'll have to sift through all the blurb but not today........the day before the referendum maybe :-!

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## RagnarRocks

> You shouldnt judge everyone by the way you behave yourself Rags -  I was just being nice and complimentary...


Are you related to Mr Salmond or Ms Strugeon by any chance I see a lot of similarities. Just being nice and complimentary :0))

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## squidge

> No I don't remember decimalisation but if anyone wants to think I'm a slip of a girl I would be grateful if you wouldn't correct them in future 
> 
> Seriously now yes I do remember the change to the euro for Ireland, it was terrible! Trying to buy a pony was a nightmare! And the hauliers just used the change of currency to rob the idiots who were daft enough to pay their rates. 
> I do not mind admitting a change of currency worries me a lot.
> 
> Edited to add : The Irish dealers were absolutely DESPERATE to get their hands on sterling after the change to the euro. The buyers with pounds in their pocket were treated very well by the Irish at the time above the Dutch and other buyers. I could not understand why at the time, and still don't.


Then you are absolutely right to be cautious if that is the experience that you have.  Maybe worth reading this 

http://devolutionmatters.wordpress.c...t-scotland-be/

although its from 2012 it is pretty current and it points out 


> _  the Scottish economy resembles that of the UK so closely that [using  Sterling without a formal union] would cause none of the problems of  different economic structures or cycles that have underpinned the Euro’s  difficulties._


ITs interesting and whilst I dont expect it will put your mind at rest, it might give you food for thought.

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## rogermellie

reminds me of the gag when scottish money is refused somewhere in  englandshire only for some mad scotsman to remind the cashier ... 'IT'S  LEGAL TENDER!!'   

just a thought, but when the Queen shuffles off , how quickly/smoothly will the uk's currency change from her neep to ..... Charles' ?

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## Southern-Gal

I think they will bypass him and print Wills' shot on the cash instead.

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## Mrs Bradey

it appears that (as I suspected) that a YES vote win in the referendum does not guarantee Scotland independence. it seems I am not the only one who understood that a YES win would only signify the start of negotiations for Scotlands independence!

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## Southern-Gal

This is the biggest worry!
Everything is so vague. If there had to be a vote on independence and it turned out to be a yes then it should take maybe three years run the same to give time to implement changes, vote in the best party to do it properly. But the person at the forefront of it is in a hurry to get his moment of fame I fear. I am coming to the conclusion that this is not about what is best for Scotland and her people, more about someone on a power trip who is already past his prime and does not have time to wait or plan for his victory.

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## RagnarRocks

> it appears that (as I suspected) that a YES vote win in the referendum does not guarantee Scotland independence. it seems I am not the only one who understood that a YES win would only signify the start of negotiations for Scotlands independence!


You're quite correct but I don't think the Government will try and stop Scotland becoming independent. I think the sticking points  will be more what the rUK govt thinks is fair and the SNP think is fair in the negotiation process. If we keep getting wee ECK screaming bully every time he doesn't get his own way it will make life difficult.

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## RagnarRocks

> This is the biggest worry!Everything is so vague. If there had to be a vote on independence and it turned out to be a yes then it should take maybe three years run the same to give time to implement changes, vote in the best party to do it properly. But the person at the forefront of it is in a hurry to get his moment of fame I fear. I am coming to the conclusion that this is not about what is best for Scotland and her people, more about someone on a power trip who is already past his prime and does not have time to wait or plan for his victory.


There's no doubt Mr Salmond wants his name etched in the History books whether or not Scotland and its population are more important than his vision of his own grandeur has yet to be seen. He will either be a new Bruce or a side show act,dependent on whether he gets independence and whether its all that he is promising it will be.

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## Mrs Bradey

> There's no doubt Mr Salmond wants his name etched in the History books whether or not Scotland and its population are more important than his vision of his own grandeur has yet to be seen. He will either be a new Bruce or a side show act,dependent on whether he gets independence and whether its all that he is promising it will be.


interesting you should pick Bruce, who would shift allegiance at the drop of a hat in pursuit of his own goals! in the end, he murdered  one of his rivals in a church! he was then excommunicated and declared an outlaw, Scotland was thrown into civil war! history may indeed be repeated!

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## Humerous Vegetable

Alex Salmond and the SNP are a means to an end. They have given the people of Scotland an opportunity to have a say in the future of our country; something none of the other political parties have done in the 300 years of the Union.
All this, "what's the plan B".....what is the plan B of the Labour, Tory and Lib-Dems if/when there is a Yes vote? They are so desperate to hang onto their Westminster MPs and Peers, that they appear to have no policies at all for an independent Scotland, and their MSP's are *not* working for Scotland, they are following the Westminster party line.
Apparently some leaking cretin from the Tory/Lib-Dem alliance last week said that a Yes vote did not mean we would necessarily get what we voted for. Oh really? So, at the next Westminster election, when the majority in the SE England (who currently decide what government we will have for the next 5 years) vote for a Tory/UKIP alliance, they won't be allowed to have it?

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## ducati

> Alex Salmond and the SNP are a means to an end. They have given the people of Scotland an opportunity to have a say in the future of our country; something none of the other political parties have done in the 300 years of the Union.


What about devolution? 

That is the only rational part of your post the rest was just an anti English rant. People like you do more harm to the yes campaign than Alex Salmond.

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## Mrs Bradey

> Alex Salmond and the SNP are a means to an end. They have given the people of Scotland an opportunity to have a say in the future of our country; something none of the other political parties have done in the 300 years of the Union.All this, "what's the plan B".....what is the plan B of the Labour, Tory and Lib-Dems if/when there is a Yes vote? They are so desperate to hang onto their Westminster MPs and Peers, that they appear to have no policies at all for an independent Scotland, and their MSP's are *not* working for Scotland, they are following the Westminster party line.Apparently some leaking cretin from the Tory/Lib-Dem alliance last week said that a Yes vote did not mean we would necessarily get what we voted for. Oh really? So, at the next Westminster election, when the majority in the SE England (who currently decide what government we will have for the next 5 years) vote for a Tory/UKIP alliance, they won't be allowed to have it?


the referendum was always only to find out public opinion the results of which were/are supposed to guide both the UK government and the Scottish government through negotiation toward independence for Scotland! I don't know anyone who voted for a coalition government, so I guess you don't always get what you vote for! as for "a means to an end", so were the atom bombs dropped on nagasaki and hiroshima,!?!?

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## ducati

So of course the leader of the EU has said unequivically, "No automatic entry" The SNP response "No he didn't" and " he's wrong" and he is "preposterous"  :: 

http://www.channel4.com/news/difficu...to-join-the-eu

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## ducati

> the referendum was always only to find out public opinion the results of which were/are supposed to guide both the UK government and the Scottish government through negotiation toward independence for Scotland! I don't know anyone who voted for a coalition government, so I guess you don't always get what you vote for! as for "a means to an end", so were the atom bombs dropped on nagasaki and hiroshima,!?!?


No, from Alistair Darling today. "If the Scots vote yes, that is it, there is no going back".

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## RagnarRocks

I really don't get the bit where Scottish MPs don't have any determination in what happens in Scotland. Is not Mr Brown a Scottish MP and former chancellor of the exchequer ( no more boom and bust ) isn't Danny Alexander a Scottish MP. Alistair Carmichael, Alistair Darling to name but a few in fairly senior positions. The only thing you can throw at Westminster is that the SNP isn't in power. Scotland has its fair share of MPs the same as Wales and Northern Ireland. Has not Scotland got Devolution and a first minister the same goes for Wales so the concept that its all Westminsters fault is somewhat preposterous. The whole of the United Kingdom votes in general elections and for 13 years we had a Labour government in power so to say its all the Tories fault is again a bit delusional. The reality is certain sections of society in Scotland can't accept democratic process what they want is their own way on everything without any compromise to the rest of the electorate.

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## Humerous Vegetable

Individual Scottish MPs have rights to vote in the referendum, if they are Scottish residents, in the same way as any other Scottish residents have a vote. They should not be using their position as Westminster MPs to try to influence the vote. Their jobs (salaries, allowances, perks and pensions) depend on the No vote and, so far as I am aware, they have not declared an interest in the Register of Members' Interests.
I don't recall saying anything was "all the Tories fault". I think I was trying to indicate that it is the job of their, and Labour, and Lib-Dem *MSPs* to help to fashion the debate here in Scotland, and not allow their strings to be pulled by their national leadership._ What about devolution_ ( quote)? Well, what about it? Party policy in the aforementioned does not appear to have devolved much since 1997.

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## gerry4

> So of course the leader of the EU has said unequivically, "No automatic entry" The SNP response "No he didn't" and " he's wrong" and he is "preposterous" 
> 
> http://www.channel4.com/news/difficu...to-join-the-eu


He is only 1 man expressing his view. Remember he was actually speaking to Spain. Also a new commission is being elected and his term ends in October.

It is not the commission who has the say on who joins or not but the members. It would be extraordinary for a body who is all for expansion to say no to Scotland. Don't expect spain to say no when push comes to shove. Would their fishermen be happy to be excluded from Scottish waters even for a few months? What about our exports to Spain, would they like those to be stop or become more expensive?

The final thing is how would they take EU citizenship from 5m citizens? Politically it would be a disaster & lead to a number of court actions.

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## RagnarRocks

Its the job of Scottish MPs to influence the debate dependant on which way they are inclined with their individual and party beliefs. Otherwise all you have is everyone saying that Indepence is the way to go. The fact that only one party is pushing for Indepence and the others are pro union just makes the SNPs job a bit harder. By saying they are pro union they are fashioning the debate by showing the majority of other parties and MPs do not think independence  is a good idea.

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## RagnarRocks

> He is only 1 man expressing his view. Remember he was actually speaking to Spain. Also a new commission is being elected and his term ends in October.It is not the commission who has the say on who joins or not but the members. It would be extraordinary for a body who is all for expansion to say no to Scotland. Don't expect spain to say no when push comes to shove. Would their fishermen be happy to be excluded from Scottish waters even for a few months? What about our exports to Spain, would they like those to be stop or become more expensive?The final thing is how would they take EU citizenship from 5m citizens? Politically it would be a disaster & lead to a number of court actions.


I think the crux of the matter is if Scotland votes to cede from the Union then its effectively leaving Europe and becoming a new country in its own right, therefor has to reapply for membership to most of  the little clubs we are members of although some like the UN are probably a forgone conclusion, some like the EU rely on all 28 members accepting Scotland. Mr Barraso wasn't  speaking about Spain this was a new interview in which he refers directly to Scotland. The EU wouldn't be taking citizenship away from Scotland they would be leaving the United Kingdom which is the signatory. As for Spanish fishing Mr Salmond has already made that threat some time ago, I could be wrong but I don't think Spain or Portugal tend to fish the North Sea.

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## RagnarRocks

Here's a link to the interview from the Andrew Marr show today .....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-26215963

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## ducati

> He is only 1 man expressing his view. Remember he was actually speaking to Spain. Also a new commission is being elected and his term ends in October.
> 
> It is not the commission who has the say on who joins or not but the members. It would be extraordinary for a body who is all for expansion to say no to Scotland. Don't expect spain to say no when push comes to shove. Would their fishermen be happy to be excluded from Scottish waters even for a few months? What about our exports to Spain, would they like those to be stop or become more expensive?
> 
> The final thing is how would they take EU citizenship from 5m citizens? Politically it would be a disaster & lead to a number of court actions.


You people make me laugh, stick your fingers in ears and shout La La La La.

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## RagnarRocks

> You people make me laugh, stick your fingers in ears and shout La La La La.


You should enjoy this Ducati ! Nicola Sturgeon failing to answer Andrew Neil's questions ...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26175401

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## gerry4

> I think the crux of the matter is if Scotland votes to cede from the Union then its effectively leaving Europe and becoming a new country in its own right, therefor has to reapply for membership to most of the little clubs we are members of although some like the UN are probably a forgone conclusion, some like the EU rely on all 28 members accepting Scotland. Mr Barraso wasn't speaking about Spain this was a new interview in which he refers directly to Scotland. The EU wouldn't be taking citizenship away from Scotland they would be leaving the United Kingdom which is the signatory. As for Spanish fishing Mr Salmond has already made that threat some time ago, I could be wrong but I don't think Spain or Portugal tend to fish the North Sea.


I do know the difference between Spain & Portugal. Is the N. Sea not off the east coast of scotland?





> You people make me laugh, stick your fingers in ears and shout La La La La.


There are other opinions who say otherwise. Should we close our ears to other opinions or keep an open mind?

Have a read of this former European Court Judge. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-20757450

Also can we have a debate without being abusive?

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## Mrs Bradey

> I do know the difference between Spain & Portugal. Is the N. Sea not off the east coast of scotland?There are other opinions who say otherwise. Should we close our ears to other opinions or keep an open mind?Have a read of this former European Court Judge. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-20757450Also can we have a debate without being abusive?


the former European court judge. I will use your own words to describe his opinion, "he is only 1 man expressing his views". open mind indeed!

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## gerry4

> the former European court judge. I will use your own words to describe his opinion, "he is only 1 man expressing his views". open mind indeed!


The man who negotiated UK's entry & 14 other countries https://archive.is/37wSD. Also remember East German did not have negotiated.

What I am trying to point out that other experts are saying other things & for the commentators to say Scotland will not be admitted or it will take years with any degree of certainty are wrong

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## RagnarRocks

Gerry my point is, unless I'm wrong, it that the Spanish and Portuguese  fleets tend not to fish in the North Sea. So making a threat to Europe to stop them fishing the North Sea is a bit pointless. Also if you're going to try and negotiate your way into Europe then it really isn't a wise idea to make threats to countries whose vote you'll need prior to negotiations.

 You raise an interesting point regarding East Germany my take on that is that Germany was reunified as opposed to East Germany trying to become independent, so one would naturally assume that as West Germany was already in Europe and the East was joining with the west its a completely different set of circumstances to Scotland leaving the United Kingdom or for that matter Catalonia leaving Spain. Both would become new countries in these particular circumstances thus liable to having to reapply and meet the joining criteria.

I fully appreciate that there are opposing views on the issue but doesn't that just prove that its not quite as simple as Mr Salmond is assuring us and thus a gamble. One way you get a fast track into Europe no questions asked and no need to accept the Euro. The other you need to reapply to Europe and loose all the subsidies crippling the farming industry and all other industries receiving monies from Europe, you are also then forced to accept the Euro as a condition of entry. Also during the interim period all citizens of Scotland loose the protection of the Human Rights act.

Also your report is from a veteran of Europe who negotiated during the 1970s this is 2014 Mr Barrosa is the current European Commissioner so up to date with the vastly different rules concerning Europe as is now compared to 1970s

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## Oddquine

> I think the crux of the matter is if Scotland votes to cede from the Union then its effectively leaving Europe and becoming a new country in its own right, therefor has to reapply for membership to most of  the little clubs we are members of although some like the UN are probably a forgone conclusion, some like the EU rely on all 28 members accepting Scotland. Mr Barraso wasn't  speaking about Spain this was a new interview in which he refers directly to Scotland. The EU wouldn't be taking citizenship away from Scotland they would be leaving the United Kingdom which is the signatory. As for Spanish fishing Mr Salmond has already made that threat some time ago,* I could be wrong but I don't think Spain or Portugal tend to fish the North Sea.*


ROFLMAO...you are wrong!.......why would Salmond threaten them if it didn't happen? Scottish fishing boat decommissioning levels from Heath handing Scottish waters over to be plundered and 2007 below.  I do have to say the CFP is one of the reasons I'd prefer not to be in the EU.  Good look at it all here http://www.electricscotland.com/hist...es/fishing.htm

*           YEAR* * BOATS*

*1973             * Entry            into EEC                                                                                             (approx.)                    1,800
*1975*                         Scottish waters opened to boats of 8 countries                                                                      1.782

*1985*                         Fish stocks declining  decommissioning &            licenses introduced                                              1,396

_1995__                         Spain & Portugal enter CFP                                                                                                 1,209_ 

*1998*                         Apparent reduction in fish stocks  yet more            decommissioning                                               1,045

*2002*                         Perceived collapse of cod stocks  panic            restrictions by Brussels                                                                   845

*2007                       *            Brussels devoid of an answer except still more decommissioning                                                                   697

 Commenting            on the TPA study, the Aberdeen (Scotland)           _Press and Journal_ in its            editorial of 30 January 2009, The Price of Fish, wrote:             _In case            any proof were needed that the European Unions Common Fisheries            Policy is one of the most damaging political schemes ever to affect a            UK industry, some facts about its impact on every single household            will help. Pressure group The Taxpayers Alliance has calculated that            the policy costs every family £111 a year in higher taxes and lost            business and puts ₤186 a year on the average food bill. As the north            and northeast of Scotland has witnessed, the impact on jobs has been            severe. More than 9,000 directly in fishing and up to 90,000 have been            lost from onshore dependent industries. This is before the baffling            phenomenon of throwing away tons of dead fish each year has been            considered.            The problem with the CFP of course, is            that we are pretty much stuck in a world in which the European Union            will forever meddle with this vital Scottish industry.             The CFP is a triumph of pork barrel            politics over commonsense and compassion.              
_
* Summary of            Scottish Losses*
No calculable            benefits to Scotland of EU membership could possibly compensate for            this haemorrhage of Scotlands economic wealth. The appalling figure            of lost value creation of ₤1,500 million every single year, and the            loss of almost 100,000 jobs from the Scottish employment market,            represents nothing less than a national disaster  brought about for            no better reason than the crazed ideology of sharing the common            resource with other EU member countries. 

Thanks ever so, Ted Heath! (and that's from me, not the authors of the article) Isn't the Union good for Scotland! 

Re the EU stuff....I think the crux of the matter is that everyone is spitting into the wind.  Nobody knows how it will work, not Westminster, not Scotland and not individual EU members, however important they think they are..because it has never happened before.  There is no precedent, as stated by the former Irish Minister of  State for European Affairs, Lucinda Creighton, for the breakup of any existing EU member state, and the continued membership of all or some of the new individual states (though that was spun by the BBC to make it sound as if she said that Scotland would be out)  Did you notice the _all or some_ bit, btw?  ::   And by the way Barroso is from Portugal!  :: 

Westminster could find out.if it wanted..but it doesn't...I wonder why? Maybe because the UK without Scotland is not the UK which signed the Treaty?

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## RagnarRocks

You mean an article from a confessed biased site explains everything. Try posting links from sites which aren't so biased it will give your argument more credence.. 
As I said I could be wrong but your articles does not show whether The Spanish or Portugese Fleets actually fish the North Sea. I know the fish off Ireland and Cornwall for a fact but there is no evidence in your article to show whether they are fishing the North Sea.

You're quite right on the EU issue it is up for debate but former Politicians from the EU don't really carry as much weight as the current President of the European Commision. 

The whole point is, its not as clear cut as Mr Salmond is stating which means we are supposed to vote on uncertainties, I.e gamble that he is being honest and knows better than everyone else.

But threatening the EU prior to any decision isn't a wise idea ...http://www.heraldscotland.com/politi...h-sea.21443529

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## ducati

> You should enjoy this Ducati ! Nicola Sturgeon failing to answer Andrew Neil's questions ...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26175401


Yes I saw it live. Even I felt sorry for her.

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## RagnarRocks

And this is directly regarding Spain and Portugal fishing the North Sea...

.The First Minister’s spokesman said the Spanish and Portuguese would not dare impose onerous conditions for fear of harming their fishing industries operating in a separate Scotland’s waters.He made the threat after David Lidington, a Foreign Office Minister, said that other countries with their own separatist movements, like Spain, would make EU membership difficult for Scotland.

But Michael Moore, the Scottish Secretary, said Mr Salmond must be “muddled” as there are no trawlers from the two countries his spokesman mentioned operating in the North Sea.

One of the countries most harmed by a blockade would be Norway, which the First Minister has repeated cited as an example Scotland should follow, but Mr Moore pointed out it is not even in the EU.MEPs yesterday predicted existing member states would be “flabbergasted” by Mr Salmond’s comments. A separate Scotland would need the support of all 28 to win EU membership.

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## ducati

So according to AS, Scots are too stupid to make their minds up over the actual issues and will just vote yes because they are stubborn. ( I paraphrase).

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## RagnarRocks

I watched his speech with interest expecting some facts and figures all I heard was the same tired rhetoric about his advisors and he couldn't of mentioned the word Tory anymore I'd he'd of tried. Sadly not a great speech the nervous laughter and jokes at the beginning to his pals followed by more of the same tired old, we think its what's best but can't actually give you figures so I will give you a sound bite " The George Tax" to try scare people forgetting that UK plc  is trading nation and quite used to different currencies and exchanges which can be made to work in a companies favour....I.E ooh you're in Scotland that's another 25 groats to process your order and extra shipping and consignment fees. Thank you very much kerching !

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## Oddquine

> You mean an article from a confessed biased site explains everything. Try posting links from sites which aren't so biased it will give your argument more credence.. 
> As I said I could be wrong but your articles does not show whether The Spanish or Portugese Fleets actually fish the North Sea. I know the fish off Ireland and Cornwall for a fact but there is no evidence in your article to show whether they are fishing the North Sea.
> 
> You're quite right on the EU issue it is up for debate but former Politicians from the EU don't really carry as much weight as the current President of the European Commision. 
> 
> The whole point is, its not as clear cut as Mr Salmond is stating which means we are supposed to vote on uncertainties, I.e gamble that he is being honest and knows better than everyone else.
> 
> But threatening the EU prior to any decision isn't a wise idea ...http://www.heraldscotland.com/politi...h-sea.21443529


Not at all..she carries has as much weight as Barroso..and every talking head either side produces. The President of the EU Commission is just one voice, after all.....Barroso is not a dictator or even the EU president.

The quotes in blue italics are from Lucinda Creighton....the bolding is mine....the rest is from Newsnet......which is a darn sight less biased than the MSM.

Since *BBC Scotland* reporter *Raymond Buchanan* told viewers that Ms  Creightons views *chimed with those of Scottish Secretary Michael  Moore who himself said that Scotland would be outside the EU trying to  get back in,* the myth has grown like a cancer.

*Anyone watching the BBC or listening to BBC Radio*, would have heard * Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont and Labour MP Michael Connarty* make  the same claim regarding the now infamous interview Ms Creighton gave  Raymond Buchanan a little over two weeks ago.

 What *hasnt been reported by these same BBC Scotland presenters and  reporters* is the *clarification Ms Creighton sent out two days after the  initial interview*.  In her clarification, the Irish Minister claimed* her  words had been taken out of context, "misconstrued" and "spun".* 

 Agreeing with the SNPs line that a newly independent Scotland would  be able to renegotiate its EU membership from within following a Yes  vote, the Irish Minister added:

_I was asked about the future of  negotiations with the EU in the event that Scotland votes for  independence.  I thought that my reply was largely in line with that of  the Scottish Government.  I certainly did not at any stage suggest that Scotland could, should or would be thrown out of the EU.  Scottish people are citizens of Europe._

FYI, since then people are still repeating the very statement which had the BBC Trust saying (albeit 11 months later)_ The Committee, on balance, agreed with the complainant in relation to this particular broadcast._ _The Committee agreed that this juxtaposition of clips, connected as  they were by the word 'and', would have led viewers to believe that Ms  Creighton and the UK Government shared the view that Scotland would be  outside the EU and would need to negotiate its way back into the EU. The  Committee concluded that this piece was therefore, in breach of the  BBC's Editorial Guideline on Accuracy.  
_
Jesus Wept! What was said was _The First Minister's chief political spokesman said European countries  would not be entitled to fish in Scottish waters if an independent  Scotland was not a member of the EU._  Get that...if we were not in the EU, they would not be *entitled* to fish in Scottish Waters..not a threat....a sodding *FACT*. It is UK membership of the EU which *entitles* them to fish in Scottish waters now if we are not in the UK or in the EU...only Scottish boats are *entitled* to fish in Scottish Waters.

Re fishing.....From Wiki...  A Spanish company successfully challenged the right of the British  government to prevent Spanish fishermen taking up the British quota in  what has now become known as the Factortame case. In total, £55m has been paid out by the British government to Spanish parties (both public and private) for loss of earnings. To this day, the large Spanish fishing fleet does the majority of its fishing outside Spain's EEZ, as far away as Canada and  Namibia.  *Nonetheless, a large part of its business comes from fishing in the  waters of northern Europe, particularly those of the United Kingdom and  Ireland.  At times of debate of the United Kingdom's declining fish stocks, this  has caused strained relations between Spain and the UK, and particularly  between Spain and the membership of the devolved Scottish  institutions, since Scotland is more dependent upon fishing than the rest of the UK. * 

If you think Spain doesn't fish in Scottish Waters you are one of the few...http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/...cle1062537.ece  ......though you may be technically correct to an extent, as some Spanish boats are UK registered and use UK quotas.._but bear in mind, Scottish Waters is not only the North Sea._..Scottish Waters also includes seas West of Scotland  

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm...linkreview.pdf  As far as I can see, after 1985, when Spain was waiting to join the EU but was limited as to access in the meantime, Spanish boats registered in the UK to access UK quotas..whereupon the UK changed the law to prevent foreign-owned boats registering in UK.... I think that law change in 1988 is what the Factortame case was about.as 120 boata re-registered after it was lost by UK. So certainly in 2007, Spain was fishing in Scottish waters using UK quotas and landing a percentage of their catch at Scottish ports, as well as boats fishing using Spanish quotas.......and I shouldn't think that that has changed greatly in the intervening years, do you?

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## RagnarRocks

7 years is a long time to be making such an assumption don't you think ?

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## Oddquine

> 7 years is a long time to be making such an assumption don't you think ?


They were certainly doing it in 2012.....if you had read one of the links I gave.....which also said _It also reveals that more  than 30 of Britain’s biggest trawlers are owned by Spanish operators but are  registered in this country so they can buy the quotas._ So that's two years ago.  ::

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## RagnarRocks

And how many companies operating in Scotland are owned from outside Scotland alas that's part of what's called globalisation something we all have to live with nowadays, unless of course you're suggesting isolationism and we only buy products by companies entirely owned and operated in Scotland with Scottish employees. Maybe you'd like to turn your attention to the oil and gas industry or the petro chemical industry or supermarkets the car industry and apply the same rules to them. But if we do that wouldn't Scotland be an awfully impoverished country after a short while.

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## Tubthumper

> And how many companies operating in Scotland are owned from outside Scotland alas that's part of what's called globalisation something we all have to live with nowadays, unless of course you're suggesting isolationism and we only buy products by companies entirely owned and operated in Scotland with Scottish employees. Maybe you'd like to turn your attention to the oil and gas industry or the petro chemical industry or supermarkets the car industry and apply the same rules to them. But if we do that wouldn't Scotland be an awfully impoverished country after a short while.


Agree with you. So in the face of globalisation where's the sense in adding transaction charges for trade between friendly neighbours?

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## RagnarRocks

A few years ago I made a healthy living using the difference between prices in spain and prices in the Uk so it doesn't really matter if you're friends or not there are differences in prices between different countries hence people like to buy their cars, clothes,  cigarettes in one country because they are cheaper and bring them back here even though some of them are manufactured over here. Taxes, Shipping Charges, Exchange Rates are all used by companies all over the world to their best advantage nothing new in it. So if Scotland becomes independent why would not the same rules apply as they do to every other country or are you suggesting there should be a special case made just for Scotland. Its not as though many companies don't already charge extra shipping costs for the Highlands and Islands usually in excess of what the carrier charges them so to some extent it already applies.

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## Tubthumper

So you're glorifying profiteering?  Greed is great?

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## RagnarRocks

Today a sky news poll shows the following...what would happen if you woke up and found Scotlamd was independent.  
 I would be delighted 25%
 I would be dismayed 46% 
 I wouldn't Mind.        17%
 Don't  know              11%

Compared to Rest of the United Kingdom

I would be delighted    11%
I would be dismayed    34%
I wouldn't mind.          46%
Don't know.                   9%

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## ducati

> Agree with you. So in the face of globalisation where's the sense in adding transaction charges for trade between friendly neighbours?


Problem is Tubs, the eck has pee'd off the rest of the UK now to such an extent that Westminster couldn't sell a currency union to the people even if it wanted to.

Seems to me that there are very few people in a position of power in the head of the Yes campaign and they are acting increasingly irrationally. Therefore the strategy (and it is a sound one) of the No campaign is to keep the pressure on in the expectation that someone will blow a gasket and finally expose them for what they are.

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## Oddquine

> And how many companies operating in Scotland are owned from outside Scotland alas that's part of what's called globalisation something we all have to live with nowadays, unless of course you're suggesting isolationism and we only buy products by companies entirely owned and operated in Scotland with Scottish employees. Maybe you'd like to turn your attention to the oil and gas industry or the petro chemical industry or supermarkets the car industry and apply the same rules to them. But if we do that wouldn't Scotland be an awfully impoverished country after a short while.


I made no comment about that. You said that no Portuguese or Spanish boats fished in Scottish Waters...and _that_ was the remark to which I was responding. 

The fact that boats from other countries are UK registered doesn't presently mean they are obliged to unload their catch in the UK and sell it here to add value to the UK economy.as long as they drop into a UK harbour about 6 times during their fishing days.....though to be fair, UK registered Spanish boats do land about a third of their catch here....though it generally finds its way to Spain by other means.  This link refers to England, but will be applicable everywhere in the UK and to all foreign fishing boats registered in the UK, I should think.  http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/p...quota-20130328

But hey......if you want to nit-pick about something I haven't said.....be my guest.......at least it has moved you on from saying much the same thing in different posts without reading any responses or links.

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## Oddquine

> Today a sky news poll shows the following...what would happen if you woke up and found Scotlamd was independent.  
>  I would be delighted 25%
>  I would be dismayed 46% 
>  I wouldn't Mind.        17%
>  Don't  know              11%
> 
> Compared to Rest of the United Kingdom
> 
> I would be delighted    11%
> ...


That was  three weeks ago.......and what is it meant to prove?

----------


## RagnarRocks

> So you're glorifying profiteering?  Greed is great?


Without companies making a profit, they can't pay wages invest in new technology, develop new products, stay competitive and go bust.

That tubs is the way of the world no profit = no companies = no jobs = poverty. 

Or are you now suggesting that no company in Scotland should make a profit,no one supplying Scotland should make a profit,and we sell Independent Scotland as the worlds first special status charity zone.

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## RagnarRocks

> That was  three weeks ago.......and what is it meant to prove?


There was no intention to prove anything merely a poll showing national opinions. But interesting to note how you critique statistics that are three weeks old but are quite happy to espouse stats which are years old as still relevant. Do I note a dichotomy of standards or is it my imagination.

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## RagnarRocks

> I made no comment about that. You said that no Portuguese or Spanish boats fished in Scottish Waters...and _that_ was the remark to which I was responding. The fact that boats from other countries are UK registered doesn't presently mean they are obliged to unload their catch in the UK and sell it here to add value to the UK economy.as long as they drop into a UK harbour about 6 times during their fishing days.....though to be fair, UK registered Spanish boats do land about a third of their catch here....though it generally finds its way to Spain by other means.  This link refers to England, but will be applicable everywhere in the UK and to all foreign fishing boats registered in the UK, I should think.  http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/p...quota-20130328But hey......if you want to nit-pick about something I haven't said.....be my guest.......at least it has moved you on from saying much the same thing in different posts without reading any responses or links.


So you're saying the said Spanish fishing boats are legally registered and operated, abide by the required legislation and also land catch in Scotland ..
The rest was a logical extension of your argument.
 Not what you said but the implications of what you said when extended across other industries.

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## bekisman

Here we go again from Alex with  the Anglophobe rhetoric; _"Westminster Elite are bullying Scotland". _ 

This is simply _'childish  playground name calling'_. That is not my own opinion (although I agree),  but one of my daughter-in-laws - who's Scottish roots, lives across the pond. I  was unaware of it but she tells me that in 2012 on the Late Late Show  Alex confused NY with Washington!  The man is NOT a player on the international  stage, but an embarrassment to Scotland abroad, his class-conscious outbursts  are reminiscent of the Socialist Republicans in the 80's with their archaic  utterances  . Oh that's right I forgot, Alex salmon ran the _79 Group  Socialist Society_  was formed as a leftwing organisation committed to the  establishment of a “socialist and republican Scotland" Eh?, though he wanted  QEII to be the head of State?

So he's still banging his head  against the wall demanding currency union (in your dreams Alex). But If and I  say IF he gets it, is this what 'independence means?: Treasury officials from  London would treat the Scottish Treasury as accountable to them, requiring  regular updates, with London expecting to have the power to overturn spending  and taxation decisions.(That's more power than it currently has over  Holyrood.
He threatens 'business in the rUK  could expect to face £500m exchange transaction costs, then it follows that  Scotland, with lower sales of goods and services into the rUK, could - very  roughly - expect a business cost of £400m. A smaller figure, but proportionately  a lot more. (And that's at the lower end of potential estimates.)
 That is, if Salmond does NOT get his way with a currency union, then the full  cost to Scottish businesses of introducing a separate currency could be,  proportionately, much greater than that estimated for the rUK. It's not obvious  why the first minister would wish to draw attention to such a big potential blow  to trade. While it might hurt rUK businesses selling into an independent  Scotland, it looks like it would HURT SCOTTISH BUSINESSES FAR  MORE.
 No Pre-Negotiation!  
 Michael Moore the Lib Dem minister made it clear a long time ago, that the  UK government would not be entering into early talks on what might happen in a  post-independence world. Mr Moore said: "We will not be negotiating in  advance"

 So what's Plan B Alex? presumably he will tell the Scottish People that  English/welsh/Irish WILL agree a currency union, but you'll have to vote for  independence first??
 I've spent my life with Scots; in the military and also the fire service (I  don't tend to panic Tubs) there are no better colleagues, I have had my life in their  hands many times, although I'm kinda English (ask Lizz) I have amazing empathy  for Scottish folk. Don't get taken in by the ranting of an ex-socialist and  republican.

 Alex YOU are actually the minority, stop bullying those who see sense that  we are 'better together' And don't forget; England does not have Independence,  Wales and N.Ireland do not have Independence, so why are YOU so  keen?

----------


## Kenn

KIND of English ! 
Khe de gherdes ty bal !
And I'm not translating as I might get banned he he.

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## RagnarRocks

A little quote from Bertrand Russell seems apt....
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves,and wiser people so full of doubts.

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## Oddquine

> Today a sky news poll shows the following...what would happen if you woke up and found Scotlamd was independent.  
>  I would be delighted 25%
>  I would be dismayed 46% 
>  I wouldn't Mind.        17%
>  Don't  know              11%
> 
> Compared to Rest of the United Kingdom
> 
> I would be delighted    11%
> ...


As you are keen on pointless unrepresentative polls..here's another one for you......Channel 4. 
.https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1bjn.../viewanalytics


Are you eligible to vote in the Scottish independence referendum?
Yes    10695    86%
No    1677    14%

Are you in favour of Scottish independence?
Yes    10235    83%
No    2137    17%

Do you think an independent Scotland should be allowed to keep the sterling as currency?
Yes    10155    82%
No    2217    18%

Do you think an independent Scotland should be allowed to join the EU?
Yes    11107    90%
No    1265    10%

----------


## RagnarRocks

Well at the end of the day the only thing that matters is how we vote on the big day. Youre quite right polls generally mean not much, but comparing  sky news poll to channel 4s is quite amusing have you seen the difference in viewing figures. And the reality of the situation is Mr Salmond gave a speech he didn't deconstruct the argument against a currency union, he views his opinion higher than the President of the EU Commision infact Mr Salmond considers anyone not in powers view far more important than those controlling the levers of power. At the end of the day all he is promising is uncertainty with a nice slice of nationalism and socialism to wash it down. Vote whichever way you wish,on the rocks with a splash and twist if you please :0)!

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## Oddquine

> Well at the end of the day the only thing that matters is how we vote on the big day. Youre quite right polls generally mean not much, but comparing  sky news poll to channel 4s is quite amusing have you seen the difference in viewing figures. And the reality of the situation is Mr Salmond gave a speech he didn't deconstruct the argument against a currency union, he views his opinion higher than the President of the EU Commision infact Mr Salmond considers anyone not in powers view far more important than those controlling the levers of power. At the end of the day all he is promising is uncertainty with a nice slice of nationalism and socialism to wash it down. Vote whichever way you wish,on the rocks with a splash and twist if you please :0)!


I believe polls as little as I believe Unionist Westminster politicians.

Why should he need to deconstruct a pointless argument? Does anyone with a lick of wit go into negotiations having revealed all their cards ahead of time? 

So you are agreeing with Barroso that if Scotland votes for Independence, other EU member countries won't recognise it because we declared UDI, like Kosovo? FYI, despite Kosovo still not being recognised by 5 EU countries, it has been continuing with the EU enacted Stabilisation Tracking Mechanism (STM) programme signed in Oct 2012.  

Personally I'm not too bothered about either the currency or the EU...but I do realise if Unionists don't pull Project Fear and Smear..they are speechless. I'm still waiting for the positive benefits of being in the Union....and Unionist perceived problems for Scotland with the currency and the EU just doesn't cut it for positivity!

----------


## Big Gaz

> A few years ago I made a healthy living using the difference between prices in spain and prices in the Uk so it doesn't really matter if you're friends or not there are differences in prices between different countries hence people like to buy their cars, clothes,  cigarettes in one country because they are cheaper and bring them back here even though some of them are manufactured over here. Taxes, Shipping Charges, Exchange Rates are all used by companies all over the world to their best advantage nothing new in it. So if Scotland becomes independent why would not the same rules apply as they do to every other country or are you suggesting there should be a special case made just for Scotland. Its not as though many companies don't already charge extra shipping costs for the Highlands and Islands usually in excess of what the carrier charges them so to some extent it already applies.


Won't work like that until Scotland is part of the EU. Until then you will have to pay import and export duties and taxes together with shipping costs! Also if you are buying in England and bringing the stuff north to sell, you could be on the end of a smuggling charge!......who would have thought it eh! A fine and upstanding member of e Org stitched up for smuggling Cornish Pasties, English Cheddar, Welsh Lamb and Irish Stew into Scotland!

----------


## RagnarRocks

> Won't work like that until Scotland is part of the EU. Until then you will have to pay import and export duties and taxes together with shipping costs! Also if you are buying in England and bringing the stuff north to sell, you could be on the end of a smuggling charge!......who would have thought it eh! A fine and upstanding member of e Org stitched up for smuggling Cornish Pasties, English Cheddar, Welsh Lamb and Irish Stew into Scotland!


Just think of the money I could make smuggling illicit bottles of buckfast over the border :0))

----------


## RagnarRocks

> I believe polls as little as I believe Unionist Westminster politicians.Why should he need to deconstruct a pointless argument? Does anyone with a lick of wit go into negotiations having revealed all their cards ahead of time? So you are agreeing with Barroso that if Scotland votes for Independence, other EU member countries won't recognise it because we declared UDI, like Kosovo? FYI, despite Kosovo still not being recognised by 5 EU countries, it has been continuing with the EU enacted Stabilisation Tracking Mechanism (STM) programme signed in Oct 2012.  Personally I'm not too bothered about either the currency or the EU...but I do realise if Unionists don't pull Project Fear and Smear..they are speechless. I'm still waiting for the positive benefits of being in the Union....and Unionist perceived problems for Scotland with the currency and the EU just doesn't cut it for positivity!


A fair argument oddquine apart from the issue, which is they've said currency union isn't up for negotiation. That's not showing your hand that's saying its not on the table. 

Now I dont agree or disagree with Barrosso I've just stated he has made a valid point that Scotland may well be treated as a new member which is contrary to Mr Salmonds assurances if that is the case then you loose a lot of farming subsidies and EU investment also there's the issue of not being able to Use the Euro either. That would leave a newly independent Scotland with one less currency option.

Now why do you call it project fear and smear just because they disagree with Mr Salmonds assertions, one could equally say that Mr Salmond is playing the bully and emotional card as well as the smear so its an argument that cuts both ways. 

I haven't heard anyone from Westminster calling the SNP bullies, blusterers bluffers that seems to be entirely Mr Salmomds fall back position when someone disagrees with him.You can hardly expect rUK to sit back and nod in agreement with everything the SNP claims,all they are doing is voicing an opposing view point. 
But with all the power & knowledge  of the civil servants and legal experts employed by Wesminster regardless of which party is in power. As compared to Mr Salmond who has non of those at his disposal.

----------


## Big Gaz

> Just think of the money I could make smuggling illicit bottles of buckfast over the border :0))


Aye, need to be careful though, i thought the Glesga Polis wanted them to be marked so they could trace the origin?

----------


## ducati

> A fair argument oddquine apart from the issue, which is they've said currency union isn't up for negotiation. That's not showing your hand that's saying its not on the table. 
> 
> Now I dont agree or disagree with Barrosso I've just stated he has made a valid point that Scotland may well be treated as a new member which is contrary to Mr Salmonds assurances if that is the case then you loose a lot of farming subsidies and EU investment also there's the issue of not being able to Use the Euro either. That would leave a newly independent Scotland with one less currency option.
> 
> Now why do you call it project fear and smear just because they disagree with Mr Salmonds assertions, one could equally say that Mr Salmond is playing the bully and emotional card as well as the smear so its an argument that cuts both ways. 
> 
> I haven't heard anyone from Westminster calling the SNP bullies, blusterers bluffers that seems to be entirely Mr Salmomds fall back position when someone disagrees with him.You can hardly expect rUK to sit back and nod in agreement with everything the SNP claims,all they are doing is voicing an opposing view point. 
> But with all the power & knowledge  of the civil servants and legal experts employed by Wesminster regardless of which party is in power. As compared to Mr Salmond who has non of those at his disposal.


I've never really got this positive and negative campaigning malarky. Surely if the question was "do you want Scotland to remain within the United Kingdom?" the shoe would be on the other foot?

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## RagnarRocks

> Aye, need to be careful though, i thought the Glesga Polis wanted them to be marked so they could trace the origin?


Slosh it into 5 litre anti freeze containers punters won't notice the difference :0)) more bang for your buck!

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## Big Gaz

> Slosh it into 5 litre anti freeze containers punters won't notice the difference :0)) more bang for your buck!


i'm beginning to wonder where your current income is coming from?....... ::

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## Phill

> but I do realise if Nationalists don't pull Project Fear and Smear..they are speechless.


Both sides are guilty of this.

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## RagnarRocks

> i'm beginning to wonder where your current income is coming from?.......


My current incomes through a wee box on the side of my house attached to the national grid same as most people's :0))

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## Big Gaz

> My current incomes through a wee box on the side of my house attached to the national grid same as most people's :0))


sigh....only you could possibly come out with such a dire and dreadful pun like that one ^^^^^^^ ::

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## RagnarRocks

> sigh....only you could possibly come out with such a dire and dreadful pun like that one ^^^^^^^


What do you expect for a Tuesday evening :0)

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## Mrs Bradey

> What do you expect for a Tuesday evening :0)


maybe Wednesday's puns will be less shocking!

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## RagnarRocks

> maybe Wednesday's puns will be less shocking!


Well they do say hope springs eternal, a bit like wee Ecks idea of a currency union :0))

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## Big Gaz

Just read an article about independence on politics.co.uk and had to laugh at the journalists one-liners.

 "Scotland currently has more pandas within it's borders than Conservative MPs" & "If Alex Salmond had set out to design a computer-generated version of a  snively-nosed Sassenach to represent the no campaign, he could hardly  have created a finer avatar than George Osborne." I have to go put my t-shirt in the wash now it's all covered in coffee spilt through laughing :-)

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## Oddquine

> Just read an article about independence on politics.co.uk and had to laugh at the journalists one-liners.
> 
>  "Scotland currently has more pandas within it's borders than Conservative MPs" & "If Alex Salmond had set out to design a computer-generated version of a  snively-nosed Sassenach to represent the no campaign, he could hardly  have created a finer avatar than George Osborne." I have to go put my t-shirt in the wash now it's all covered in coffee spilt through laughing :-)


Have to say that Pro-independence supporters commenting on articles are as good at producing one-liners as journalists. 

There was one at the time of the early DDOS attacks on Wings, when the commentators were trying to work out who was doing it.and one punter said....._.It just cannot be the Russians, they’re all parked in the Moray Firth waiting for the Navy to turn up!_  And there was..._It will be interesting to read what the actual Treasury thoughts (for this week) are tomorrow when we read it in black and fright._ And what about _Two related news items on BBC this morning. George Clooney sayin the Greeks should get their marbles back followed by George Osbourne provin that he's lost his._

The only one I have found from antis is this......_.I can not disagree with you as I am unable to confirm your facts. I can see that, per capita, Scotland is 'richer' but that is different then per person._ ::

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## RagnarRocks

So we all have shown by these comments are that the pro independence campaign likes to call names,smear and personalise issues over what someone looks like. Hardly statesmanship at its best.

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## Big Gaz

> So we all have shown by these comments are that the pro independence campaign likes to call names,smear and personalise issues over what someone looks like. Hardly statesmanship at its best.


Anti's are just as bad. Mr Cameron, our much-loved...cough....Prime Minister and one of the most vocal "better together" & "Pro-Union" voices in the last few weeks has had to rein in members of his own party over recent verbal attacks on other members of parliament! Swivel-eyed loons ring any bells?

A quote from a daily rag which i do agree with!

"Observe which side resorts to the most vociferous name-calling and you  are likely to have identified the side with the weaker argument"

I think the politicians would be better off concentrating on the issue to hand instead of resorting to schoolboy antics with all the name-calling and petty squabbles but it doesn't seem to be happening....

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## Oddquine

> So we all have shown by these comments are that the pro independence campaign likes to call names,smear and personalise issues over what someone looks like. Hardly statesmanship at its best.


Aw..apart from a comment about Osborne, from Big Gaz's post and mine....where are we calling names smearing and personalising anything?   

Now go back through every thread in this forum dealing with independence and have a look at all the personal abuse aimed at Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon....and then come back and tell us that the pro-independence campaign is the worst culprits regarding nastiness.

----------


## ducati

> Aw..apart from a comment about Osborne, from Big Gaz's post and mine....where are we calling names smearing and personalising anything?   
> 
> Now go back through every thread in this forum dealing with independence and have a look at all the personal abuse aimed at Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon....and then come back and tell us that the pro-independence campaign is the worst culprits regarding nastiness.



_"The present govt are the biggest liars, cheats, bullies and thieves around at the moment an who are so perfectly adept at making the lives of the population miserable that one would be forgiven if they thought they had majored in the subject!! The Italian Mafia crimes look like nursery school name-calling compared to what the Condemnedliblabs can do!"_

Didn't take long to find that example...I'll re-quote some of yours if you like?

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## bekisman

RagnarRocks there's no space in your in box!

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## bekisman

Today it was quite interesting watching BBC Parliament; "Scotland's Economic  Future post-2014" in Hollyrood and listening to Danny Alexander (lib-dem toff  from Colonsay Primary school) where a nats questions referred to whether any  further devolution measures were planned - Danny intimated that obviously he  would not announce any new measures 'here' when it might be announced later on..  Hmm
 Now wouldn't that be a bit of a conundrum for the nats IF it was announced  that more measures were going to be offered in 2015, and which would almost  certainly approach devomax?
 We then have an electorate with the difficult decision of  a) voting for an  Independent Scotland with no currency, no EU (well lets face it was only the  European Commission President  Jose Manuel Barroso who said it,  and now it seems supported by Herman Van Rompuy; President of the (28 countries)  European Council. What do they know? Goodness me.
 And b) getting almost (and maybe) full fiscal autonomy  for Scotland - OK not Independent - but then again, neither is England, Wales or  Northern Ireland!. (honest) And, bearing in mind the Scottish Social Attitudes  Survey a couple of years back most Scots supported greater autonomy  within the UK. And that was before this currency union EU  rumpus!
 But then again Alex might change his mind? I understand he actually said  "sterling was a "millstone around Scotland's neck" and now decides he wants it?.  I seem to remember he mentioned an "Arc of prosperity" with reference to Norway  Iceland, Ireland,  Finland and Denmark bit odd as having been to the  Scandinavian countries myself, they are high tax and spend economies and as for  Ireland? What ever happened to the 'Celtic Tiger' idea? he said "Scotland will  be a Celtic Lion" wot, using Eire as a template. In that Harvard speech he also  praised the Royal Bank of Scotland! my god, is that 'cos he once worked  there?
 Wot about the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation? He was most certainly  against NATO, now he's changed his mind on that too.
 A good quote: "And why would Scotland want independence just so it can be  economically controlled by London but without any representation? What kind of  independence is that!!!?

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## bekisman

> KIND of English ! 
> Khe de gherdes ty bal !
> And I'm not translating as I might get banned he he.


Aaaah I meant to say 'kind of near English' my dear - edrek a'm brus!

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## RagnarRocks

Aux contraire bekisman it is your box that is full

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## bekisman

> Aux contraire bekisman it is your box that is full


 Yo be right! been away too long I 'ave!

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## Phill

> Yo be right! been away too long I 'ave!


Thought yer woz lost to Portgower!

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## RagnarRocks

Now I'd be interested to hear whether Oddquine  considers Mr Van Rompoy another man who hasn't a clue on what he's talking about with regard to the EU, after all he has now agreed with Mr  Barossos position on an independent Scotland. Or should we be inclined to believe Mr Salmomd once again ?

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## Phill

I think the EU issue is wrapped up with Von Pimpy. Who voted for him?

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## Oddquine

> Now I'd be interested to hear whether Oddquine  considers Mr Van Rompoy another man who hasn't a clue on what he's talking about with regard to the EU, after all he has now agreed with Mr  Barossos position on an independent Scotland. Or should we be inclined to believe Mr Salmomd once again ?


Has Van Rumpoy been pontificating again?  I haven't noticed him being misinterpreted since the Middle of December. Got a link to his latest?

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## RagnarRocks

I didn't think I'd bother putting a link up as neither of us read each others and you seem fairly adept at googling things when they interest you ..... That's the wonderful face of our caring sharing society. I'm enabling you and giving your intelligence the dignity and respect it so rightly deserves .Im all about empowerment and equality :0))

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## Big Gaz

It's gonna be a laugh when Cameron (or whatever PM we have at the time) takes the seat of being in charge of the EU. Payback sounds sweet! Way i see it now is that the EU is getting their own back on the UK (not just a possible future indy Scotland) by throwing a spanner in the works at every opportunity. I am surprised that they are even going public to say they will not accept Scotland as a future member of the EU when it is in plain writing that it is the no.1 aim of the EU to expand at every opportunity when presented and to unite all countries within a single social and economic border. Not doing too well on that principle at the moment then i guess....

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## Oddquine

> I didn't think I'd bother putting a link up as neither of us read each others and you seem fairly adept at googling things when they interest you ..... That's the wonderful face of our caring sharing society. I'm enabling you and giving your intelligence the dignity and respect it so rightly deserves .Im all about empowerment and equality :0))


That's why I was asking. Last pontification from him I can find is in the middle of December.  

Btw, I do read your links when you give any.

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## RagnarRocks

> That's why I was asking. Last pontification from him I can find is in the middle of December.  Btw, I do read your links when you give any.


Here you go short but sweet ....http://www.heraldscotland.com/politi...rship.23486339

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## Bobinovich

What I don't understand is that, so far, the ploy of the No campaign and those EU bureaucrats has been to say that an independent Scotland would need to reapply from out with the EU, but as we are already within the EU, wouldn't we just be applying to maintain the status quo with regards to our membership, simply negotiating our position from inside?

----------


## RagnarRocks

I think the position of the EU is that whilst Scotland is part of the United Kingdom ie England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland with the government being in Westminster and the Prime Minister running the show, should Scotland vote to become independent it then becomes a new country and would have to negotiate entry into Europe under the status of new country.

----------


## ducati

> I think the position of the EU is that whilst Scotland is part of the United Kingdom ie England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland with the government being in Westminster and the Prime Minister running the show, should Scotland vote to become independent it then becomes a new country and would have to negotiate entry into Europe under the status of new country.


I thought the groundswell of opinion was wanting to leave anyway?

----------


## Bobinovich

> I think the position of the EU is that whilst Scotland is part of the United Kingdom ie England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland with the government being in Westminster and the Prime Minister running the show, should Scotland vote to become independent it then becomes a new country and would have to negotiate entry into Europe under the status of new country.


OK I've Googled & read some articles, but can't see any official declaration from the EU that say that is the case...it would be a whole lot easier if they could make their mind up and state it for the record!!

The best I can find is a summary *here*...

• Accession to the European Union requires adjustments to its founding treaties and the unanimous approval of member states.
• For an independent Scotland to join the European Union, it would also need to negotiate the terms of its membership. 
• It is unclear whether Scotland would be permitted to negotiate as a de facto EU member, and thereby be placed on a fast track to accession, or whether a normal accession procedure would be necessary. 
• The possibility of a Scottish precedent emboldening secessionist movements in other member states could incline the EU towards the normal accession process.  It might  also shape the EU’s attitude towards the terms of membership. 
• The EU’s stance would similarly be influenced by the nature of Scotland’s candidacy – that is to say, how far Holyrood sought exceptions from normal membership criteria.

In other words, just as it appears with many other issues on Independence, we won't know until after the vote and the negotiations start as to what we're voting for  :: 

The posturing from both sides of the debate is all very well but it doesn't give us voters any stable grounds on which to base our decision.  I'm still an either-way voter...I believe Scotland can be in a better place as an independent nation, certainly when taking the current, and recent, UK Government's policies into account.  Also I don't hear the No campaign espousing any positive benefits for remaining in the union other than 'more of the same' which doesn't fill me with any confidence whatsoever!

I had high hopes that a site would be set up which would take a fairly neutral stance, and offer the facts in a nice simple summary format for your average Joe to understand, but there doesn't appear to be anything.  Instead we have huge reports from both sides which most folk won't want, or have the time, to plough through...

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## jax

I would also like to see a neutral site so that I can make a decision. I'm still following this thread but I don't have the time to read every link. Maybe I'm looking for an easy answer!

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## ducati

> I would also like to see a neutral site so that I can make a decision. I'm still following this thread but I don't have the time to read every link. Maybe I'm looking for an easy answer!


Simples, if you think life is so bad now that you are prepared to take almost any risk to change it, vote yes.

If you appreciate living in one of the free est, most prosperous societies in the world (said in a comedy Clarkson voice) then vote no. (you can always campaign and work to change anything you don't like).

----------


## squidge

. I have been away to Glasgow this week attending The Gathering, the Scottish conference for the voluntary sector and charity workers. These organisations often are working with the most isolated, poorest, most disabled people in Scotland and the UK. 

If you take Enable for example, they work with people with Learning disabilities. Some of the statistics are truly upsetting. Today in the UK only 20% of people with learning disabilities have a job; today in the UK 2 out of 3 people with learning disabilities cannot name a single friend; today in the uk people with learning disabilities die on average 20 years before those who dont have learning disabilities. Today the UK is listed as the third most unequal country in the West. 

Ducati suggests that we should vote no and continue to work from within the UK to change things. I and many others, many others, individuals and organisations have been doing that for many years and inequality grows. We have a government who believes that Welfare cuts are part of a Moral Mission. That - despite the evidence - believes that foodbanks are creating demand, not that people are going without food. We have a labour party who say welfare cuts will be deeper and stronger if they are elected.

 We can talk about the economy but people live in a society, not simply an economy. There is NO opportunity to affect a change within the UK. A YES vote gives us the opportunity for something different, better, fairer.. What that is will be up to us to choose at the ballot box when we choose our government in 2016. Bring it on.

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## RagnarRocks

All very well and good Squidge but the economy is what allows us to have sufficient funds as a society to pay for the welfare. If you don't look after the economy then you won't have enough money to pay for social care. Whilst I in no way disagree with the ideal of being able to look after the people in society who need caring for through no fault of their own, you cannot also deny the massive increase in spending on charities which are always crying for more money but seem to deliver very little in a lot of cases, maybe there is an argument to be made for centralising the charity sector more removing some of the highly paid directors and myriad of people draining the money from where it should be and ensuring it is given to the people who genuinely need it. Whilst a gathering on the face of it sounds very admirable one has to ask the awkward question is how much it cost how many people attended and the wages paid to them during that time and whether as charities that money which was donated to help those who need it would of been better spent giving help to the sectors which it should be being delivered to. From my personal experience all you normally get is some well meaning correspondence but little if no actual help whilst the people who complain they want more money sit in comfortable offices, drawing comfortable wages and just demand more money.

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## Big Gaz

> All very well and good Squidge but the economy is what allows us to have sufficient funds as a society to pay for the welfare. If you don't look after the economy then you won't have enough money to pay for social care. Whilst I in no way disagree with the ideal of being able to look after the people in society who need caring for through no fault of their own, you cannot also deny the massive increase in spending on charities which are always crying for more money but seem to deliver very little in a lot of cases, maybe there is an argument to be made for centralising the charity sector more removing some of the highly paid directors and myriad of people draining the money from where it should be and ensuring it is given to the people who genuinely need it. Whilst a gathering on the face of it sounds very admirable one has to ask the awkward question is how much it cost how many people attended and the wages paid to them during that time and whether as charities that money which was donated to help those who need it would of been better spent giving help to the sectors which it should be being delivered to. From my personal experience all you normally get is some well meaning correspondence but little if no actual help whilst the people who complain they want more money sit in comfortable offices, drawing comfortable wages and just demand more money.


Charities are having a really hard time these days, i got called the other day for the first time ever from a charity asking me for money. No hard sell, no direct debit, just a straight payment into a bank account even if it was just a few pounds and then i was asked that if i considered doing so, would i then fill in a tax relief form so they could claim the tax too. 
There is no money in circulation and it's because of the way the economy has been handled in recent years that we are at this point now! Tax hikes has forced many companies to outsource to cheaper countries, businesses have been sold to foreign companies, even our basic infrastructure is owned by foreign companies! Everything that made money for the govt has been sold off and privatised for a quick boost to the coffers but once it's spent, where does the cash come from to replenish it? 
There will be more and more sweeping cuts in all areas of govt funding, especially the benefits system! Will you be happy with part-time streetlighting? monthly refuse collections? forced recycling measures? Cutting of school attendance times and funding, severe cuts in NHS budgets, doctors forced to ask for money to treat patients, paid for prescriptions for all, including those on benefits! and the list goes on.....There's some really crazy ideas planned for the UK benefit system in the next few years that will be a life changer for most if not all benefit recipients. Meanwhile the govt are pressing ahead with HS2 costing now around £50b (10% of that i must add is paid for by Scotland who will never see their moneys worth out of it) which will benefit a mere 2-3% of the country! what about something that benefits the whole country and not just a few of Camerons cronies. 
As for funding? if the govt would stop sending billions overseas in aid money to countries that kill and terrorise our own people, put scrap on the moon and buy multi-billion dollar second hand aircraft carriers from the Russians with the money and decided to spend it in the UK instead then who would complain? or should i say who cares about who would complain? All that money saved could be spent on turning the economy around, providing better education, more jobs including ones for disabled people and everyone would see the benefit and then we could start giving a little to those in need but the way this craphole of a country is going now, anything is better than staying with the current setup. I'm not saying independence is the way to go but it's looking more and more rosier by the minute and until Cameron & co change their ways, then staying in the UK will be a tough and stark reality check.

Last point!
As you all know we have had severe flooding down south recently yet why is Cameron refusing to ask the EU for help from the flood fund? The EU leaders are claiming they are puzzled why Cameron isn't asking...so why don't they just give it to us instead of waiting? more to the point, just exactly how many of the countries that this govt has sent aid to over the years, have offered help in return....i think the answer to that would be a big fat zero!

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## golach

Squidge, whats going to happen to the National Lottery? If Eck and you get your way and we all go on the slippery road to hell with the yes vote? 
Scottish charities and other good causes get and have gotten millions of pounds of relief from the Nation Lottery, how are you going replace that monies? Oh I forgot, Eck has got a never emptying sporran.  ::

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## squidge

The National Lottery has a contract until 2023. There is no reason whatsoever why it would cease to exist in an Independent Scotland. Golach, i know you like to suggest that Scotland is nothing, has nothing and can be nothing. I know you have said that Scotland has nobody with the ability to run an Independent Scotland but you know, Scotland does not just take - People living in Scotland contribute to the lottery too. Why on earth would the Lottery want to remove itself from the market?

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## Humerous Vegetable

Last point!
As you all know we have had severe flooding down south recently yet why is Cameron refusing to ask the EU for help from the flood fund? The EU leaders are claiming they are puzzled why Cameron isn't asking...so why don't they just give it to us instead of waiting? more to the point, just exactly how many of the countries that this govt has sent aid to over the years, have offered help in return....i think the answer to that would be a big fat zero![/QUOTE]

I think Cameron has realised that he is dealing with EU politicans who are much more politically sophisticated and aware than he is (not difficult, after all) and will not lay himself open to yet another knock-back. It would also be a shot in the ar...m for his rabid anti-european back benchers if the funding was requested and turned down, or hedged about with demands for this, that and the other as a result.
Enjoyed your post, much of which I agreed with.

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## squidge

Rags the third sector contributes more than 5 billion pounds to Scotland's GDP and employs more than 130 000 people. Far from donations, third sector organisations are often paid to deliver services, because they can do this cheaper and more effectively than statutory organisations and certainly private companies. Third sector organisations have an important role in holding politicians and statutory services to account and deliver vital services and support meeting a whole range of needs.

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## Oddquine

> . I have been away to Glasgow this week attending The Gathering, the Scottish conference for the voluntary sector and charity workers. These organisations often are working with the most isolated, poorest, most disabled people in Scotland and the UK. 
> 
> If you take Enable for example, they work with people with Learning disabilities. Some of the statistics are truly upsetting. Today in the UK only 20% of people with learning disabilities have a job; today in the UK 2 out of 3 people with learning disabilities cannot name a single friend; today in the uk people with learning disabilities die on average 20 years before those who dont have learning disabilities. Today the UK is listed as the third most unequal country in the West. 
> 
> Ducati suggests that we should vote no and continue to work from within the UK to change things. I and many others, many others, individuals and organisations have been doing that for many years and inequality grows. We have a government who believes that Welfare cuts are part of a Moral Mission. That - despite the evidence - believes that foodbanks are creating demand, not that people are going without food. We have a labour party who say welfare cuts will be deeper and stronger if they are elected.
> 
>  We can talk about the economy but people live in a society, not simply an economy. There is NO opportunity to affect a change within the UK. A YES vote gives us the opportunity for something different, better, fairer.. What that is will be up to us to choose at the ballot box when we choose our government in 2016. Bring it on.


So true, squidge.......and a NO vote will bring us more and more of this austerity, for those of us with no clout , whichever Political Party is in power..as illustrated below.......

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...an Harry Smith

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-s...ust_reloaded=1

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-0...ols-protected/

http://samedifference1.com/2014/02/2...for-vi-people/

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...one?CMP=twt_gu

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...fit-recipients

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...y-culture-fear

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...arged-decision

http://sallysjourney.typepad.com/sal...l-mission.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014...n_4822314.html

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...inisters-claim

And more of this for folk who *do* have clout......the rich,  big businesses, London and politicians

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-city-medieval

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...revolving-door

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...h-8874873.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...leaps-42m.html

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...se-record-high

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...inisters-claim

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politi...se-of.23444016

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-north-v-south


Is it *so* inconceivable that an Independent Scotland could do better than that for Scotland and the Scots by spending Scotland's money on policies and projects to benefit _us_.  How can anyone say we will be Better Together in a Union which, over the past thirty five or so years, has, and will for the foreseeable future, subject our society to policies for which we didn't vote and which increase poverty and inequality, when, with the confidence and will, we would be Better Together working for ourselves and our own benefit in an Independent Scotland.

----------


## golach

> The National Lottery has a contract until 2023. There is no reason whatsoever why it would cease to exist in an Independent Scotland. Golach, i know you like to suggest that Scotland is nothing, has nothing and can be nothing. I know you have said that Scotland has nobody with the ability to run an Independent Scotland but you know, Scotland does not just take - People living in Scotland contribute to the lottery too. Why on earth would the Lottery want to remove itself from the market?


If we are going to be cut off from the pound Squidge, how and what will us Scots (and I am a Scot ) use to pay for our Lottery tickets?

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## Big Gaz

> If we are going to be cut off from the pound Squidge, how and what will us Scots (and I am a Scot ) use to pay for our Lottery tickets?


Why worry? by the looks of it there won't be a national lottery in an independent Scotland anyway.

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## squidge

> If we are going to be cut off from the pound Squidge, how and what will us Scots (and I am a Scot ) use to pay for our Lottery tickets?


Lets see Golach. Which bit of " the pound is a fully tradeable currency which can be used if Scotland chooses toUse it regardless of permission from Westminster" do you not understand? The Fiscal Commission outlined the currency options available to an Independent Scotland. Take a read of it.

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## Big Gaz

> Lets see Golach. Which bit of " the pound is a fully tradeable currency which can be used if Scotland chooses toUse it regardless of permission from Westminster" do you not understand? The Fiscal Commission outlined the currency options available to an Independent Scotland. Take a read of it.


If Putin comes over in force we might end up using the rouble!  ::

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## ducati

> So true, squidge.......and a NO vote will bring us more and more of this austerity, for those of us with no clout , whichever Political Party is in power..as illustrated below.......
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...an Harry Smith
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-s...ust_reloaded=1
> 
> http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-0...ols-protected/
> 
> http://samedifference1.com/2014/02/2...for-vi-people/
> ...


Oh come on! Who is going to look at that lot?

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## ducati

> Rags the third sector contributes more than 5 billion pounds to Scotland's GDP and employs more than 130 000 people. Far from donations, third sector organisations are often paid to deliver services, because they can do this cheaper and more effectively than statutory organisations and certainly private companies. Third sector organisations have an important role in holding politicians and statutory services to account and deliver vital services and support meeting a whole range of needs.


Private companies very often deliver excellent value and quality. Stop making rediculous sweeping statements. I realise you have vested interests but let us not be disingenuous. Presumably these contracts are open to "third sector" organisations to bid for? ATOS are trying to get out of one of their's early. Maybe there is an opportunity.

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## RagnarRocks

So now charities call themselves the third sector that makes it nice and cosey doesn't it, saves the uncomfortable truth that those people should be employed by the state to deliver the services unless of course lots of directors and managers are making a comfy living whilst paying the workers a pittance of a wage. There is no reason that a charity should be able to provide services cheaper than the state its just goes to show how corrupt the system has become.

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## RagnarRocks

> So true, squidge.......and a NO vote will bring us more and more of this austerity, for those of us with no clout , whichever Political Party is in power..as illustrated below.......http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...an Harry Smithhttp://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-s...ust_reloaded=1http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-0...ols-protected/http://samedifference1.com/2014/02/2...for-vi-people/http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...one?CMP=twt_guhttp://www.theguardian.com/commentis...fit-recipientshttp://www.theguardian.com/politics/...y-culture-fearhttp://www.theguardian.com/politics/...arged-decisionhttp://sallysjourney.typepad.com/sal...l-mission.htmlhttp://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014...n_4822314.htmlhttp://www.theguardian.com/society/2...inisters-claimAnd more of this for folk who *do* have clout......the rich,  big businesses, London and politicianshttp://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-city-medievalhttp://www.theguardian.com/commentis...revolving-doorhttp://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...h-8874873.htmlhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...leaps-42m.htmlhttp://www.theguardian.com/politics/...se-record-highhttp://www.theguardian.com/society/2...inisters-claimhttp://www.heraldscotland.com/politi...se-of.23444016http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-north-v-southIs it *so* inconceivable that an Independent Scotland could do better than that for Scotland and the Scots by spending Scotland's money on policies and projects to benefit _us_.  How can anyone say we will be Better Together in a Union which, over the past thirty five or so years, has, and will for the foreseeable future, subject our society to policies for which we didn't vote and which increase poverty and inequality, when, with the confidence and will, we would be Better Together working for ourselves and our own benefit in an Independent Scotland.


Ah yes more austerity due to the socialist Labour Party being in power for thirteen years spending money like water, deregulating the financial services sector so now we have to stop the boat sinking but hey, lets forget all that blame the conservatives and dream up more ways to spend money without a clue how to make it. That is typical socialism

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## squidge

Ok.... Lets see.... Certainly SOME private companies...dors that suit you? . In ayrshire statutory podiatry services are being supported by volunteer technicians who do basic footcare for elderly people in a self funding project which costs the user £5 instead of the £30 which it would cost for private treatment. In addition the volunteers gain skills and ecperience which has meant volunteers have moved into paid employment. Look at Scotland's Community Jobs fund where the Third Sector has been involved in providing paid employment opportunity for young people which has resulted in almost 50% finding continuing paid employment. Consider this against westminsters back to work programme delivered largely by private companies, which is compulsory, unpaid and has achieved less than 15% employment rate in their participants.

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## RagnarRocks

Well all I can say to that Squidge is in all days in the private sector I'd of never been allowed to use my time to post on forums when there was work to be done but I guess life's different in the third sector.

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## squidge

Oooooh ho ho ho.. ...  What a snidey suggestive little post...

Is that an attempt at a personal slur Ragnar?  I work PART TIME and I am absolutely sure that you have the information already that i do not work on a Friday. That means this is a deliberate attempt to suggest that I am stealing time from my employer to other people when you already know that is not the case. That is a really unpleasant and unjustified thing to do. 

Would you like a copy of my time sheet?

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## Phill

The Scottish NHS is under direct control from Holyrood, is it not?

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## ducati

> Ok.... Lets see.... Certainly SOME private companies...dors that suit you? . In ayrshire statutory podiatry services are being supported by volunteer technicians who do basic footcare for elderly people in a self funding project which costs the user £5 instead of the £30 which it would cost for private treatment. In addition the volunteers gain skills and ecperience which has meant volunteers have moved into paid employment. Look at Scotland's Community Jobs fund where the Third Sector has been involved in providing paid employment opportunity for young people which has resulted in almost 50% finding continuing paid employment. Consider this against westminsters back to work programme delivered largely by private companies, which is compulsory, unpaid and has achieved less than 15% employment rate in their participants.


Who is getting the 5 quid if not the volunteers? 

And rather than % which are statistics, quote numbers which are people.

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## Oddquine

> Ah yes more austerity due to the socialist Labour Party being in power for thirteen years spending money like water, deregulating the financial services sector so now we have to stop the boat sinking but hey, lets forget all that blame the conservatives and dream up more ways to spend money without a clue how to make it. That is typical socialism


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/rame...b_2007552.html

http://tompride.wordpress.com/2012/0...s-than-labour/

And the fact that the banking derelegulation was carrying on from where Thatcher left off, voted for for by the Conservatives at the time, and if they had been returned in 2007, they would have taken it even *further*....and made  the banking crisis worse...so it seems more than a shade two-faced to blame Labour......they are both as bad as each other! .
"
Some quotes from a report, endorsed by Cameron in 2007   _The (Labour) government claims that this regulation is all necessary.  They seem to believe that without it banks could steal our money .."; "We need to make it more difficult for ministers to regulate, and we need  to give the critics of regulation more opportunity to make their case  against specific new proposals.."  ; "We recommend deregulating venture capital fund raising, and investment for professional investors_"; "_A Conservative government should relax banking regulation, allowing a new breed of venture/micro-credit institutions_"; "_Competition is the customers main ally. It is competition which keeps the bank honest _";  _"We see no need to continue to regulate the provision of mortgage  finance, as it is the lending institutions rather than the client taking  the risk" _ etcAnd isn't it funny that all this debt, deficits and austerity is only Labour's fault, when Labour, despite their _spending money like water_, had reduced the debt from 1997 to 2008 from 42% of GDP to 35% of GDP.....and the deficit they inherited was 3.9% of GDP which they reduced by 2008 to 2.1%, while in 1994 under the Tories it was as high as 8%.  The increase after 2008 was due to the global banking crisis.....not _spending money like water_'

_Cameron is playing the blame game to depress confidence and growth to  justify austerity. Secondly, to use austerity as justification for a  smaller state to gain lower taxes. Thirdly, to paint Labour as a party  that can not be trusted with the country's finances again. Therefore, we  Conservatives will win a second term because, people vote out of fear.  The latter strategy worked the last time in office (18 years) and will  work again because, in the end, elections are won and lost on economic  credibility. Hence, as people believe Labour created the mess they won't  be trusted again.

_Pretty much the same tactics being used to engender fear in the Scottish people over independence.

_If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it_

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## RagnarRocks

_If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it_[/QUOTE]

So does that rule apply for Mr Salmond and his assurance there will be a currency union and that entry into the EU is merely a formality.
As for blaming the conservatives they may have agreed but it was Labour in power for 13 yrs Mr Brown ( no more boom and bust ) that actually put the legislation through or is it just to big a pill for you to swallow. 

What was the note left when Labour lost ....there is no money left ?? Socialism at its best

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## gerry4

> The Scottish NHS is under direct control from Holyrood, is it not?


Yes but if Westminster cuts NHS spending in England then because of the Barnett Formula the amount of money given to Scotland is reduced. So aa cut in England means a cut in the rest of the UK too.

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## Southern-Gal

TSB want out. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...flotation.html

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## ducati

> Yes but if Westminster cuts NHS spending in England then because of the Barnett Formula the amount of money given to Scotland is reduced. So aa cut in England means a cut in the rest of the UK too.


Well that's alright then because NHS spending in England is being increased and has been ever since the coalition came to office. You need to stop listening to Socialist propaganda.

The only people in the UK cutting NHS spending is the Labour led Welsh Assembly.

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## vanman1

ragnarocks, ducati and a few others seem to know the answer to everything bar one and thats why are they downing scotland then saying were better together. if scotland has nothing to offer then why do they westminster need us.

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## RagnarRocks

We aren't downing Scotland at all,and we don't know everything, we are voicing a differing opinion to the people who want Independence. What we are disagreeing with is the SNPs assurance that a currency union and entry into the EU are merely matters of negotiation. Personalising the issue by saying we are downing Scotland is patently ridiculous as both Ducati and Myself have sold up properties and invested in living in Scotland which says more how about how we feel about living here than just being born here and never moving. You tell me in clear concise language what makes Independence such a wonderful idea to you that you're prepared to vote on what appear to be lies, lies and more lies

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## vanman1

i will be voting yes. westminster needs scotland hence all the bully boy tactics.

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## RagnarRocks

I've seen no bully boy tactics what I have seen is the the conservatives, labour, lib dems and UKIP backed by the welsh first minister, treasury and B of E saying a currency union is not in favour of rUK the only people saying its good for rUK is the SNP and their paid for independent analysts. So it appears to me Mr Salmond is using the bully card or can you supply more facts where Scotland is being bullied or is that just the poor wee me card being played.

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## RagnarRocks

> i will be voting yes. westminster needs scotland hence all the bully boy tactics.


I will be voting No so that negates your Yes vote nicely as I feel Scotland is better off long term as part of the United Kingdom long term and the SNP cannot be trusted to be honest about the realities :0))

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## squidge

They are not downing Scotland Vanman, some believe that the UK is better at a a fundamental level, thats it. They see socialism as a great threat to their neoliberal aspirations for society but seem unable to grasp that the labour party is about as socialist as they are.

 This is not their fault. They are walking with a campaign where stories like " you will all have to drive on the right" and "the uk will have to bomb Scotlands airports", make headlines. There is no network of social media helping people to understand the issues; the main "vote no to independence...." Page on facebook is run by British Unity which has direct links to the SDL, BNP and the Orange Order and blocks anyone, even NO supporters who question what they post. The official BT facebook page also censors posts - a massive amount everymonth where people are simply asking questions and not being rude.
The campaign they follow is based entirely on the premis of "in an independent Scotland you will not have... You will not be able to ... You cant". It obviously makes them awful bad tempered. 


Rags .... just so as you dont worry again that I am wasting my employers time .. Im not working today honey either!

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## RagnarRocks

So we are ignoring the vast amount of trolling by cybernats online. Squidge I'm rather disappointed that you choose to highlight the extreme elements in any campaign I give no more credence to the BNP as I would a hardline Nationalist from anywhere it just shows how weak the argument is when you have to smear the whole NO campaign by using a few examples I wasn't aware Facebook was the official outlet for the No campaign.

Oh I'm fully aware today is Saturday Squidge but always remember there are 7 days a week so picking and choosing which day you highlight is a bit like Alex Salmonds currency union assurance.

Oh and I'd never describe myself as a neoliberal I'm quite happy with the word Conservative.

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## squidge

Are you still insisting that i am stealing time from my employer Rags... I was hoping you would be man enough to apologise and say you had made a mistake in trying to suggest that I am somehow fiddling my work.

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## ducati

> ragnarocks, ducati and a few others seem to know the answer to everything bar one and thats why are they downing scotland then saying were better together. if scotland has nothing to offer then why do they westminster need us.


I'm not downing Scotland. I agree with you, Westminster needs Scotland. I also believe Scotland needs the UK. I also believe that the whole independence argument is flawed based on a bunch of nutters wanting to cry freedom. I believe that an awful lot of genuine people believe that Scotland should be independent. I believe they are wrong.

Does that clear a few things up for you? :Grin:

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## vanman1

ragnarocks i take it you sold up south of the border and move to scotland to a better way of life. so you have a beeter way of life on what westminster give to scotland, well thinks with only get better when scotland is in total control of its finances, the reason westminster need scotland is simple the money nothing else. come the end sept when its a massive yes vote westminster will need to go scrounge elsewhere

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## ducati

> ragnarocks i take it you sold up south of the border and move to scotland to a better way of life. so you have a beeter way of life on what westminster give to scotland, well thinks with only get better when scotland is in total control of its finances, the reason westminster need scotland is simple the money nothing else. come the end sept when its a massive yes vote westminster will need to go scrounge elsewhere


I do believe you represent the nastier element of the Yes campaign. Where are you getting the massive Yes vote from?

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## squidge

> based on a bunch of nutters wanting to cry freedom. :d


grooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnn

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## vanman1

no i say it as i see it, and remember come sept that what i say now it will be yes, and you can then eat your humble pie. i said my bit will come back to this forum in sept to say i told you so.

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## ducati

> grooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnn


No No Frreeeeeeedddddoooommmm!

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## ducati

> no i say it as i see it, and remember come sept that what i say now it will be yes, and you can then eat your humble pie. i said my bit will come back to this forum in sept to say i told you so.


I've already had my T-shirt printed!  ::

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## Mrs Bradey

> ragnarocks, ducati and a few others seem to know the answer to everything bar one and thats why are they downing scotland then saying were better together. if scotland has nothing to offer then why do they westminster need us.


why don't you tell us why you think Scotland will be better alone? and if Scotland becomes independent, why should it keep all the bits of the union it wants ( pound, eu, nato, UK shipbuilding contracts etc ). and not the bits it doesn't want ( its share of the 14 trillion national dept)?

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## RagnarRocks

> Are you still insisting that i am stealing time from my employer Rags... I was hoping you would be man enough to apologise and say you had made a mistake in trying to suggest that I am somehow fiddling my work.


 You seem to have drawn that I was referring to you which is in no way implied unless you wish to label yourself as such. Do you represent the third sector in its entirety or is it merely the burden of conscience. I'm sure you've never posted on the org during the hours you work therefor no apology required. I do wish you'd stop trying to play the victim card

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## Mrs Bradey

> They are not downing Scotland Vanman, some believe that the UK is better at a a fundamental level, thats it. They see socialism as a great threat to their neoliberal aspirations for society but seem unable to grasp that the labour party is about as socialist as they are. This is not their fault. They are walking with a campaign where stories like " you will all have to drive on the right" and "the uk will have to bomb Scotlands airports", make headlines. There is no network of social media helping people to understand the issues; the main "vote no to independence...." Page on facebook is run by British Unity which has direct links to the SDL, BNP and the Orange Order and blocks anyone, even NO supporters who question what they post. The official BT facebook page also censors posts - a massive amount everymonth where people are simply asking questions and not being rude.The campaign they follow is based entirely on the premis of "in an independent Scotland you will not have... You will not be able to ... You cant". It obviously makes them awful bad tempered. Rags .... just so as you dont worry again that I am wasting my employers time .. Im not working today honey either!


better than saying "you will have" then spouting lies and promises  that can't me kept or will cost too Much to keep! don't ask me to elaborate, as I won't!

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## RagnarRocks

> why don't you tell us why you think Scotland will be better alone? and if Scotland becomes independent, why should it keep all the bits of the union it wants ( pound, eu, nato, UK shipbuilding contracts etc ). and not the bits it doesn't want ( its share of the 14 trillion national dept)?


Because 

 A. They don't want people to realise they want a new socialist state where unelected bureaucrats will have there nose in your life all the time . Anyone with children will know about this a state appointed guardian for every child, just in case you don't fit there idea of what a fit parent is.

B. the truth is uncomfortable they want a currency union but can't have one. They want shipbuilding contracts which would stay in rUK, they want to be let straight into the EU but that's far from certain. They won't be allowed into NATO due to their anti nuclear stance.

What they want is to be Independent but still use rUKs currency still have all the contracts but non of the realities of what Independence really means.

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## vanman1

i shouldnt need to tell you, time will tell, and as for the debt scotland will take its share. its westminster that started it all with thier childish games. now tell my why do westminster need scotland

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## squidge

Oh dear me.... Mrs Bradey the negotiating position outlined is that Scotland will absolutely take its share of the debt and its share of the assets and this is what Scotland is planning for. International law states this position to be the position of a successor state. If, however, the UK REFUSES to negotiate a share of the assets then Scotland is NOT a successor state and becomes a NEW state, this means that it does not have to take a share of the debt. Lets be quite clear on this. Scottish Government position is, and always has been that Scotland will be a successor state and will negotiate a share of assets and debt. The only people putting this in jeopardy are the Westminster politicians. If they are not willing to negotiate on assets then they cannot expect to hand over debt

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## RagnarRocks

> i shouldnt need to tell you, time will tell, and as for the debt scotland will take its share. its westminster that started it all with thier childish games. now tell my why do westminster need scotland


Lets face it you've been asked to explain why you think an Independent Scotland would be better but haven't come up with a single good reason apart from bleating on about Westminster which btw has 54 Scottish MPs in it. Also remember the population of Scotland is roughly 5 Million of which about 800,000 are non Scottish then remove the children who are under the required voting age its not such a massive vote either way, but despite your previous posts the polls still run at 47% No, 37% Yes

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## RagnarRocks

> Oh dear me.... Mrs Bradey the negotiating position outlined is that Scotland will absolutely take its share of the debt and its share of the assets and this is what Scotland is planning for. International law states this position to be the position of a successor state. If, however, the UK REFUSES to negotiate a share of the assets then Scotland is NOT a successor state and becomes a NEW state, this means that it does not have to take a share of the debt. Lets be quite clear on this. Scottish Government position is, and always has been that Scotland will be a successor state and will negotiate a share of assets and debt. The only people putting this in jeopardy are the Westminster politicians. If they are not willing to negotiate on assets then they cannot expect to hand over debt


Westminster hasn't refused to negotiate that is blatant propaganda what it has stated is that currency is not an asset and therefor not up for negotiation. Hence the Chancellor making it quite clear in his speech that there is no legal requirement for rUk to negotiate a currency union. It is Alex Salmond who has made the threat not to take share of debt.

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## Mrs Bradey

> Oh dear me.... Mrs Bradey the negotiating position outlined is that Scotland will absolutely take its share of the debt and its share of the assets and this is what Scotland is planning for. International law states this position to be the position of a successor state. If, however, the UK REFUSES to negotiate a share of the assets then Scotland is NOT a successor state and becomes a NEW state, this means that it does not have to take a share of the debt. Lets be quite clear on this. Scottish Government position is, and always has been that Scotland will be a successor state and will negotiate a share of assets and debt. The only people putting this in jeopardy are the Westminster politicians. If they are not willing to negotiate on assets then they cannot expect to hand over debt


my mistake then. I was sure I heard AS saying rScotland would not accept part if the dept as it had not asked Westminster to borrow it on their behalf. my mistake.

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## squidge

> You seem to have drawn that I was referring to you which is in no way implied unless you wish to label yourself as such. Do you represent the third sector in its entirety or is it merely the burden of conscience. I'm sure you've never posted on the org during the hours you work therefor no apology required. I do wish you'd stop trying to play the victim card


Oh so you WERENT suggesting that i was wasting my employers time when you said...


> Well all I can say to that Squidge is in all days in the private sector I'd of never been allowed to use my time to post on forums when there was work to be done but I guess life's different in the third sector.


I would suggest that was exactly your intention but if you want to make yourself feel better by pretending not then so be it.

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## RagnarRocks

As I said I've worked in the private sector  8.30 till 6 sometimes 10. 6 days a week and social media wasnt allowed .I know of a number of people who post on forums during work hours and work in the public and third sector  as you choose to call it, I prefer charity sector . If you want to lump yourself in with them that's is entirely your prerogative

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## squidge

> my mistake then. I was sure I heard AS saying rScotland would not accept part if the dept as it had not asked Westminster to borrow it on their behalf. my mistake.


 Its ok to be mistaken, thats really what these posts are all about under all the nonsense...  Sorting out what is said and not said... I think thats what a lot of people think because the media like to report it as such. You are not the only one. What AS and NS Said is that if Westminster refuse to negotiate sharing assets then they cannot expect Scotland to share debt. The issue about Scotland not asking Westminster to borrow it is about the word DEFAULT. Lots of unionists have been suggesting that Scotland will be "defaulting" on loans but Scotland currently has and never has had borrowing powers. It therefore has no debt to default on. The suggestion that the international community will somehow not recognise that Scotland not taking debt is because the UK refuses to negotiate fairly is a daft one.

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## squidge

> As I said I've worked in the private sector  8.30 till 6 sometimes 10. 6 days a week and social media wasnt allowed .I know of a number of people who post on forums during work hours and work in the public and third sector  as you choose to call it, I prefer charity sector . If you want to lump yourself in with them that's is entirely your prerogative


Aye...... Right!!!!

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## RagnarRocks

> Aye...... Right!!!!


Precisely Right !

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## RagnarRocks

> Its ok to be mistaken, thats really what these posts are all about under all the nonsense...  Sorting out what is said and not said... I think thats what a lot of people think because the media like to report it as such. You are not the only one. What AS and NS Said is that if Westminster refuse to negotiate sharing assets then they cannot expect Scotland to share debt. The issue about Scotland not asking Westminster to borrow it is about the word DEFAULT. Lots of unionists have been suggesting that Scotland will be "defaulting" on loans but Scotland currently has and never has had borrowing powers. It therefore has no debt to default on. The suggestion that the international community will somehow not recognise that Scotland not taking debt is because the UK refuses to negotiate fairly is a daft one.


That is thoroughly disingenuous to suggest that Scotland has never benefitted from the money borrowed to finance infrastructure NHS and all manner of social buildings and schemes  over the last 300 yrs, I suppose all the roads,hospitals, schools, military bases, government buldings, and all the people employed and their wages ,sprang from fresh air and wishful thinking it is this deceitful way of trying to say that Scotland has no share of,the debt that makes your arguments laughable bordering on delusional. If Scotland has no share of the debt in the first place why is Alex Salmond even bothering to negotiate. Assets are negotiable the currency is not considered an asset. Come of stop,all this twisting of words.

Its not what you think its what the international financial markets think and fortunately they aren't hard line socialists. If Scotland  refuses to accept a fair share of debt will be considered in default and be treated as so making life a lot more expensive for normal people as interest rates rise, mortgages and borrowing become more expensive and funding all the promised social schemes rockets through the roof.

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## squidge

> That is thoroughly disingenuous to suggest that Scotland has never benefitted from the money borrowed to finance infrastructure NHS and all manner of social buildings and schemes  over the last 300 yrs, I suppose all the roads,hospitals, schools, military bases, government buldings, and all the people employed and their wages ,sprang from fresh air and wishful thinking it is this deceitful way of trying to say that Scotland has no share of,the debt that makes your arguments laughable bordering on delusional. If Scotland has no share of the debt in the first place why is Alex Salmond even bothering to negotiate. Assets are negotiable the currency is not considered an asset. Come of stop,all this twisting of words..


 It might be disingenuous if that was what IHad even suggested but Guess what Rags.... I didnt. I absolutely AGREE that Scotland has benefitted from UK borrowing as does the Scottish Government which is why it wishes to negotiate both a share of the assets and a share of the debt... As do I. What is disingenuous is to suggest that Scotland and Scottish TAXPAYERS are not entitled to a share of the assets or did not contribute to all the things you mention. But I guess thats another way of putting your Scotland IS nothing, had NOTHING and will BE nothing argument which has been evident throughout this thread

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## ducati

> It might be disingenuous if that was what IHad even suggested but Guess what Rags.... I didnt. I absolutely AGREE that Scotland has benefitted from UK borrowing as does the Scottish Government which is why it wishes to negotiate both a share of the assets and a share of the debt... As do I. What is disingenuous is to suggest that Scotland and Scottish TAXPAYERS are not entitled to a share of the assets or did not contribute to all the things you mention. But I guess thats another way of putting your Scotland IS nothing, had NOTHING and will BE nothing argument which has been evident throughout this thread


Well that all went wrong. I understand it is not about assets or debt. But is a currency union an asset? No of course not. It would be an agreement between 2 sovereign states. If one doesn't want it then it won't be agreed.

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## RagnarRocks

> It might be disingenuous if that was what IHad even suggested but Guess what Rags.... I didnt. I absolutely AGREE that Scotland has benefitted from UK borrowing as does the Scottish Government which is why it wishes to negotiate both a share of the assets and a share of the debt... As do I. What is disingenuous is to suggest that Scotland and Scottish TAXPAYERS are not entitled to a share of the assets or did not contribute to all the things you mention. But I guess thats another way of putting your Scotland IS nothing, had NOTHING and will BE nothing argument which has been evident throughout this thread


Oh I can almost feel that hard line socialist venom dripping, you seem very good a trying to put word in people's mouths or drawing false assumptions from whats been said. You are in fact the only person making those accusations maybe that's how you truly view this country and therefor think that we all need your somewhat biased help to realise how non of us are able to make up our minds without your help. 

Do you honestly think the poor wee man can't think for himself argument is going to win the day give the People of Scotland credit for having enough intelligence without littering socialist dogma and scaremongering throughout your arguments.  

No one suggests Scotland is nothing or has nothing but you, you've repeated the assumption a number of times on the org but always refer it to how others feel when they have mentioned their opinion which differs from yours.

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## Mrs Bradey

> It might be disingenuous if that was what IHad even suggested but Guess what Rags.... I didnt. I absolutely AGREE that Scotland has benefitted from UK borrowing as does the Scottish Government which is why it wishes to negotiate both a share of the assets and a share of the debt... As do I. What is disingenuous is to suggest that Scotland and Scottish TAXPAYERS are not entitled to a share of the assets or did not contribute to all the things you mention. But I guess thats another way of putting your Scotland IS nothing, had NOTHING and will BE nothing argument which has been evident throughout this thread


there is nothing to negotiate, if independence is gained, Scotland will then exist as an independent country. in severing itself from the union it will need to clear its debts (close its accounts - so to speak). that will be its last act as a non independent country. then  as an independent country it will have the powers to decide what it wants, currency, eu, etc. until then rScotland cannot negotiate!

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## Phill

> Yes but if Westminster cuts NHS spending in England then because of the Barnett Formula the amount of money given to Scotland is reduced. So aa cut in England means a cut in the rest of the UK too.


Thank you.

But how that money is spent is in control of the Scottish Govt, yes?

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## squidge

Can you define hard line socialist venom please ragnar? I dont have ANY idea what you are talking about.

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## squidge

> Westminster hasn't refused to negotiate that is blatant propaganda what it has stated is that currency is not an asset and therefor not up for negotiation. Hence the Chancellor making it quite clear in his speech that there is no legal requirement for rUk to negotiate a currency union. It is Alex Salmond who has made the threat not to take share of debt.


Oh dear, do i need to point out that i said "IF the westminster Government refuses to negotiate".

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## squidge

> there is nothing to negotiate, if independence is gained, Scotland will then exist as an independent country. in severing itself from the union it will need to clear its debts (close its accounts - so to speak). that will be its last act as a non independent country. then  as an independent country it will have the powers to decide what it wants, currency, eu, etc. until then rScotland cannot negotiate!


Not really Mrs Bradey but I can see why you might think so.  The Edinburgh Agreement makes provision for both sides to negotiate if the result is a vote for independence. It states that negotiation will take place between the referendum and the date of Independence.

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## squidge

> Well that all went wrong. I understand it is not about assets or debt. But is a currency union an asset? No of course not. It would be an agreement between 2 sovereign states. If one doesn't want it then it won't be agreed.


I think you are right Ducati. Im not clear why "currency" itself is an asset, although I can understand why the Bank of England itself is an asset. My preference is for an independent Scottish Currency although i would be happy with using yhe pound outwith a currency union as a second choice. Im not keen on a currency union at all.

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## RagnarRocks

> Oh dear, do i need to point out that i said "IF the westminster Government refuses to negotiate".


Westminster has said already its happy to negotiate as per the Edinburgh agreement, all it has stated is that currency is not an asset to be negotiated 


> I think you are right Ducati. Im not clear why "currency" itself is an asset, although I can understand why the Bank of England itself is an asset. My preference is for an independent Scottish Currency although i would be happy with using yhe pound outwith a currency union as a second choice. Im not keen on a currency union at all.


So you consider using the pound outside of a currency union a sensible idea which means you're prepared to sacrifice the Scottish Economy to the perils that come with such an idea, this is Scotland not Panama and the economies are vastly different all this shows is a woeful lack of understanding of how a countries financial systems work. Have you also considered the costs of setting up a new central bank, regulator and all the other levers required to have an Independent currency ? 


> Not really Mrs Bradey but I can see why you might think so.  The Edinburgh Agreement makes provision for both sides to negotiate if the result is a vote for independence. It states that negotiation will take place between the referendum and the date of Independence.


Yes quite correct but currency is not up for negotiation, which means Mr Salmonds opinion about not paying Scotland's fair share of the national debt is no more than bluff, bluster and bullying he seems intent on ensuring that should Scotland become independent he has alienated as many people as possible prior to negotiation actually taking place..there's nothing like burning your bridges !

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## squidge

And the hard line socialist venom?

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## Mrs Bradey

> Can you define hard line socialist venom please ragnar? I dont have ANY idea what you are talking about.


SNAP! most of the time I have no idea what you are talking about!

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## squidge

Oh Mrs Bradey thats a shame. I know some of these issues are quite complex although  I tried to keep it simple. Maybe you would like to say which bits of my posts you dont understand and maybe someone else can pick it up and explain for you. Unless what you REALLY mean is you dont agree...

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## RagnarRocks

> Oh Mrs Bradey thats a shame. I know some of these issues are quite complex although  I tried to keep it simple. Maybe you would like to say which bits of my posts you dont understand and maybe someone else can pick it up and explain for you. Unless what you REALLY mean is you dont agree...


Rather a smug and demeaning way to address someone a typical example of the way hard line socialist like to try and belittle people who disagree with them .....venom. I have no need to back trawl through your previous post and disseminate the numerous times you've addressed the org like some komissar throwing about diktats of how an Independent Scotland would be free fair everything you could ever wish for will be provided by the state. Its almost delusional in 2014 more suitable for the 1970s when people of a similar mentality nearly bankrupt this country and started so many of our current social ills.

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## RagnarRocks

Meanwhile at the TSB ...http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/po...-urged-3168327

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## vanman1

do you believe everything the papers say, will you be returning to england come sept when its a yes vote

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## Big Gaz

> do you believe everything the papers say, will you be returning to england come sept when its a yes vote


IF they do, then the Org will be an awfy quiet place methinks....

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## RagnarRocks

> do you believe everything the papers say, will you be returning to england come sept when its a yes vote


Well nice to see you're always such a positive force for debate or do you want the other 825,000 who weren't born in Scotland to go home as well and maybe you have issues with the SNPs immigration policy because if you only want Scottish born in Scotland you'll have plenty of jobs but no one will want to come here . Then you will see your economy go down the tubes, your pensioners suffering ,your hospitals with a shortage of staff ,no inward investment.

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## vanman1

i aint bothered were you choose to say but seems to me you just want to bring scotland down yet chose to stay here why is that

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## RagnarRocks

> i aint bothered were you choose to say but seems to me you just want to bring scotland down yet chose to stay here why is that


There is a difference between not wishing to see Scotland go independent and bringing the country down, that simple concept seems totally lost on you.
 The mere fact 825000 people who weren't born here have decided to live in Scotland says a lot, but where will you go to live when the vote doesn't go the way you want ? 
I mean 825000 is nearly a fifth of the population of Scotland then detract those who are to young to vote and the fact current polls are running at 47% for No compared to 37% for Yes I'm wondering if you're just frustrated that things aren't going your way have you ever been outside Scotland ?

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## vanman1

yes i have been outside of scotland, i have nothing against anyone coming to stay in scotland. now why are you so against independence, and why is westminster so keen to keep scotland.

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## RagnarRocks

> yes i have been outside of scotland, i have nothing against anyone coming to stay in scotland. now why are you so against independence, and why is westminster so keen to keep scotland.


I have nothing against Scotland being independent per say what I do have issues with is the facts the SNP do not seem to have got their act together enough to have thought through the process properly and therefor have issues with what would happen after Independence did happen. I've lived in other countries can speak different languages so foreign countries aren't an issue but who wants to live in a country where the government can't even get its facts right before they start off. Now answer me why are you so keen on Independence what do you think will be gained ? More than a one sentence grunt would be appreciated :0))

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## Rheghead

I've heard that my Historic Scotland and Scottish National trust membership won't be recognised by English Heritage etc after independence so I won't be able to go free to English historic sites.

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## Oddquine

> I've heard that my Historic Scotland and Scottish National trust membership won't be recognised by English Heritage etc after independence so I won't be able to go free to English historic sites.


 I haven't heard that, tbh........but I'd not be at all surprised if they join in with the foot stamping and pouting of Westminster! 

If you want to get into English National Trust properties in a reciprocal arrangement, as currently exists with the Scottish National Trust, without being an English National Trust member.... I'd advise moving home and joining the equivalent associations in Australia, Bermuda, The Bahamas, Barbados, Canada, Cayman Islands, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Jersey, Malta, New Zealand, Italy, Zimbabwe or the USA ( where you can join the Royal Oak Foundation.).

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## RagnarRocks

> I haven't heard that, tbh........but I'd not be at all surprised if they join in with the foot stamping and pouting of Westminster! If you want to get into English National Trust properties in a reciprocal arrangement, as currently exists with the Scottish National Trust, without being an English National Trust member.... I'd advise moving home and joining the equivalent associations in Australia, Bermuda, The Bahamas, Barbados, Canada, Cayman Islands, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Jersey, Malta, New Zealand, Italy, Zimbabwe or the USA ( where you can join the Royal Oak Foundation.).


From what I've seen the only people foot stamping and pouting are Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon.....we want a currency union......no you can't have that.....you're bullies........we want straight in the EU....its not that easy....you're bullies ....its getting a bit repetitious the constant whineing about everyone else being wrong and being bullies but seems Mr Salmond didn't get plan A right let alone a credible contingency plan just in case he didn't get exactly what he wants.  I guess that's what happens when you have a second rate politician trying to put his name in the history books... The only word that will be written by his name after the referendum is Failure !

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## squidge

> Rather a smug and demeaning way to address someone a typical example of the way hard line socialist like to try and belittle people who disagree with them .....venom.


How is the suggestion that Mrs Bradey says what she doesnt understand so someone else can answer her  venemous?   


> I have no need to back trawl through your previous post and disseminate the numerous times you've addressed the org like some komissar throwing about diktats of how an Independent Scotland would be free fair everything you could ever wish for will be provided by the state. Its almost delusional in 2014 more suitable for the 1970s when people of a similar mentality nearly bankrupt this country and started so many of our current social ills.



Dear God Almighty ... Can you hear yourself? When did wanting a better life for people brand me a Kommisar? When did the opinion that independence offers us- the voters an OPPORTUNITY to create something better, the opportunity to design a welfare state that supports people into work rather than sanctions them for utterly ridiculous reasons make me delusional? When did the opinion that we should strive to create a society which isnt the third most unequal society in the West make me some sort of political pariah? Is it only me that thinks this is a shocking statistic? 

Ragnar honey, you can stamp your feet, spit out the word socialist like its a swear word and keep on deliberately mis representing what i say as much as You like. I'll make it easy for you here it is... 


AN INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND OFFERS US THE OPPORTUNITY TO CREATE A SOCIETY THAT IS FAIRER AND MORE EQUAL THAN THE SOCIETY WE LIVE IN TODAY. I DONT BELIEVE WE HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY AS PART OF THE UK. WE WILL HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE IN AN INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND MONEY RAISED HERE WILL BE SPENT ON THE PRIORITIES DECIDED BY US WHEN WE VOTE IN OUR SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT. THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN UNDER THE CURRENT SYSTEM. 

So there you have it. I will continue to post answers to people's questions either for them or for others that might read them, i will continue to share my opinions. You can get on with frothing at the mouth Rags, I'll get on with just being me...

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## RagnarRocks

That's right Squidge have a little Ecky Fit as I've said before whose version of fair are we talking about. You are stamping your feet, flag waving again but once again you've no proof any of what you've said will happen just what you would like or what you hope for, but no proof of it. Not a shred. As for answering peoples questions if the SNP had done their job competently those questions would of been answered in the white paper, or are you suggesting you are some kind  of oracle for a possible New Scotland able to see into the future and foretell what the politicians of the future are going  to do .Maybe possibly you have a hotline to the Eck himself and have insider knowledge or is it as i surmise your view based entirely on your view .I'm not frothing at the mouth more amused by your delusional rantings based on your opinion nothing more nothing less. Of course you'd like more social spending your job depends on it so who wouldn't want all these things when they have a vested interest. But not once do you mention where all the money is going to come from to pay for all this social engineering. Higher Taxation, building up a healthy fiscal deficit would be another  would be my guess. By the way you are an I not us speaking in the third party can be misconstrued as a sign of some types of health issue. Carry on Kommisar. Oh and no need to shout. :0))

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## golach

> Dear God Almighty ... 
> AN INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND OFFERS US THE OPPORTUNITY TO CREATE A SOCIETY THAT IS FAIRER AND MORE EQUAL THAN THE SOCIETY WE LIVE IN TODAY. I DONT BELIEVE WE HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY AS PART OF THE UK. WE WILL HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE IN AN INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND MONEY RAISED HERE WILL BE SPENT ON THE PRIORITIES DECIDED BY US WHEN WE VOTE IN OUR SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT. THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN UNDER THE CURRENT SYSTEM...


Now Squidge, that is a real Ecckky fit

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## RagnarRocks

Pram and toys spring to mind !

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## squidge

Bloody right toys out of pram! 

Ragnar The proof is there in the figures that show health inequalities in the UK, that show the numbers having to use foodbanks, the figured that show that in some places benefit sanctions are 400 % higher than two years ago, in the figures that show the rate of appeals where the original decision was overturned, in the rates of breast fed babies, in the figures showing youth unemployment, in the figures showing hospital admissions where malnutrition was a factor. Proof is in the figures that show the number of people who are homeless, in the number of people who are on housing waiting lists, in the number of people on zero hours contracts; proof is in the figures which show only 20% of people with learning disabilities have jobs, in figures which show how cancer survival rates vary, in plans to charge people for appealing against benefit decisions. The proof is there if you are not too blind to see it. 

As for what proof I have that an Independent Scotland will deliver a better fairer society? None. What proof do I have that a fairer society is not possible in the UK? Well... See all of the above. What i DO have is the knowledge that in an Independent Scotland it will be up to those people who live here and work here for the first time. That fact means that the OPPORTUNITY is there for us to choose something different. That opportunity does not exist in the UK today because you cannot put a pin between the political parties. Are you really saying that independence does NOT offer the opportunity for change! Can you prove that lol!

I accept that for you NONE of the issues that i mentioned above are of any interest to you. I dont understand that but hey i dont really care

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## RagnarRocks

Ok so you've espoused a lot of figures but you've no proof any of that will change for all you know with the proposed plan for more lower paid immigrants the living standards of many Scots could plummet . Its all very well going on about how terrible everything is and spitting your dummy out when someone has the mendacity to ask how you can prove that things are going to be so much better .. Your proof of all these wonderous things to come are about realistic as me travelling at warp speed after A particularly pungent curry. Things may change they may improve or get worse you have no way of knowing as you cannot foresee the future no more than I. In the meantime all you are espousing is socialist propaganda  with nothing based in the real world .. You can't really drop much of a pin between most of the Scottish Parties either so your point is null and void. There is as much opportunity to change things in the whole UK as there is in Scotland. Seems you're only interested in 5 million people not 65 million think of all the people with learning disabilities, cancer, homeless in the rest of the UK who don't seem to matter to you. Very small minded I thought we lived in a global society where everyone deserves a chance not just the 5 million you want to save. BTW mother Theresa didn't try break up India because she preferred one part over the other..you really should try travelling to some other parts of Europe to see the poverty Greece Spain Italy part of France some of the newer European countries your figures may reflect the Uk in one light but statistics are just that statistic easily manipulated to show whatever you wish them to. I'd suggest once again you've not seen civil unrest ,real poverty, famine or starvation all you read is statistics then run the country down.

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## squidge

Like you care! We arent going to agree Rags. Its just boring. My dummy is out the pram from earlier when you used my personal information which you had been given in the spirit of helpfulness to question my professional conduct. Im not taking you on any more I cant be bothered.

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## RagnarRocks

I haven't used any personal information about you on here. That is something you've dreamt up in the spirit trying to martyr yourself why not just accept you can't prove any of your assertions and be done its the far more adult approach. As it is your starting to sound like ECK wailing when someone calls your assertions to question. Once again you have no proof about anything you say about what an Independent Scotland might be like just pipe dreams.

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## squidge

Yeah i heard you... So you said

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## RagnarRocks

> Yeah i heard you... So you said


Yup I clarified my statement unless you count yourself in it didn't apply to you. Unless once  again you're going to use the infamous US again and speak as if you're the whole of the public sector and charity sector all rolled into one. That would be rather grandiose of you though !

Meanwhile back to the subject do you have any proof of this wonderous new independent Scotland and its limitless wealth that can afford all the things you keep proposing which aren't mentioned anywhere in the SNP white paper without running itself into a fiscal deficit that would make Portugal,Greece,Ireland and Spain's problems look insignificant.

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## squidge

Your comments were aimed at me and as calcuated to "have a dig" as kommisar is. If you want to persuade yourself that you were NOT having a dig on ya go. I dont believe you.


Oh and as for Scotlands Future what do you care as long as you are alright Jack.

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## RagnarRocks

That is your opinion which you're entitled to but it seems to me that your failure to be able to adequately convince people of your political  agenda you're now trying to play the victim card. Nothing unusual for people of a certain highly political persuasion. What you're now trying to do is turn this into a personal issue rather than political.

My nest won't be feathered any more or less whatever happens can you honestly say the same.

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## squidge

Im no victim rags. You are the one making personal
Digs and what does the nest feathered comment mean.

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## RagnarRocks

Once again you totally ignore the debate and  refuse to state your verifiable proof about this alleged new wonderful Independent Scotland and where all the money is going to come from to fund all the social engineering you've proposed. Or infact how as a voter we are going to be able to influence politicians anymore than we do now.

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## squidge

And you ignored my question. What do you mean about my nest being feathered?

Forget it I have figured it out....




> Of course you'd like more social spending your job depends on it so who wouldn't want all these things when they have a vested interest. )


Yet another personal dig. I started this job in April 2013 and My contract is done in September 2014 honey, ill neither be better nor worse off.  As i have worked in the public sector, private sector, third sector, have skills for self employment and would be happy to be a stay at home mum again, im not that worried!

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## RagnarRocks

So there you go more hypocrisy one minute you claim I'm putting your private details out when I just mention the third sector with no reference to you, now your blasting your own private Info out for all and sundry to see. Try sticking to the debate its about independence not you :0))

Noted you've tacitly avoided the big questions.

Where is all the Money going to come from ????

How will Voters influence MPs anymore than they do now ???

What will low cost immigration do to the average wage of Scottish workers ???

You do get more like Mr Salmond when asked a difficult question attack rather than answer. 

I will have to draw the conclusion you have no answers.

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## spurtle

To anyone that can answer this question.
If Scotland became independent and it was agreed through westminster to have a fiscal union with the pound, then what happens when it ends up always a Tory govt in westminster with tory fiscal policy, how much influence would scotland have on fiscal policy that would bind the pound? 
, it seems we would have even more tory policy in an independent Scotland than not as England (tory) would determine our interest rates which would then determine our borrowing and spending. And if Scotland were doing badly in the economy and england doing well then the interest rates would be high and if vise versa then our savers would be affected by England's low interest rates, surely to be truly Independent we need our own currency?

 “Let me issue and control a nation’s money and I care not who writes the laws.” Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744-1812), founder of the House of Rothschild.

At the moment we have some say as we return MPs to westminster but as Independent we have no say.
Also SNP's bill to place a state guardian to every child in Scotland till the age of 18 is the sort of frightening thing that's going to get worse.

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## ducati

> To anyone that can answer this question.
> If Scotland became independent and it was agreed through westminster to have a fiscal union with the pound, then what happens when it ends up always a Tory govt in westminster with tory fiscal policy, how much influence would scotland have on fiscal policy that would bind the pound? 
> , it seems we would have even more tory policy in an independent Scotland than not as England (tory) would determine our interest rates which would then determine our borrowing and spending. And if Scotland were doing badly in the economy and england doing well then the interest rates would be high and if vise versa then our savers would be affected by England's low interest rates, surely to be truly Independent we need our own currency?
> 
>  “Let me issue and control a nation’s money and I care not who writes the laws.” Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744-1812), founder of the House of Rothschild.
> 
> At the moment we have some say as we return MPs to westminster but as Independent we have no say.
> Also SNP's bill to place a state guardian to every child in Scotland till the age of 18 is the sort of frightening thing that's going to get worse.


Just wait till we are manning the baracades in 'Independence Square' I'll light your cocktail.

I wonder if you could sue the grubbiement if your child turns out 'wrong' ?

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## spurtle

To all who are genuinely interested in the for and against arguements regarding the economic implications of independence please watch this, it's really interesting
http://rt.com/shows/keiser-report/ep...ax-keiser-392/

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## Mrs Bradey

> Oh Mrs Bradey thats a shame. I know some of these issues are quite complex although  I tried to keep it simple. Maybe you would like to say which bits of my posts you dont understand and maybe someone else can pick it up and explain for you. Unless what you REALLY mean is you dont agree...


just reading through the thread and noticed this post, I had missed! I find this remark very patronizing. I am starting to build a clear picture of the personality of the poster. and you have the nerve to suggest that ragnar is making personal comments!!! I see what ragner means, when he says that if you can't win the argument just accuse the opposition of bullying, and call them thick! it doesn't matter how much you simplify it, it won't make sense! you have still not answered how this new "utopian Scotland" is going to be paid for!

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## Oddquine

> That's right Squidge have a little Ecky Fit as I've said before whose version of fair are we talking about. You are stamping your feet, flag waving again but once again you've no proof any of what you've said will happen just what you would like or what you hope for, but no proof of it. Not a shred. As for answering peoples questions if the SNP had done their job competently those questions would of been answered in the white paper, or are you suggesting you are some kind  of oracle for a possible New Scotland able to see into the future and foretell what the politicians of the future are going  to do .Maybe possibly you have a hotline to the Eck himself and have insider knowledge or is it as i surmise your view based entirely on your view .I'm not frothing at the mouth more amused by your delusional rantings based on your opinion nothing more nothing less. Of course you'd like more social spending your job depends on it so who wouldn't want all these things when they have a vested interest. But not once do you mention where all the money is going to come from to pay for all this social engineering. Higher Taxation, building up a healthy fiscal deficit would be another  would be my guess. By the way you are an I not us speaking in the third party can be misconstrued as a sign of some types of health issue. Carry on Kommisar. Oh and no need to shout. :0))


At the end of the day........all we_ need_ to know is this  http://archive.is/vcQ78  (Financial Times).

_and_ this http://reidfoundatio...t-independence/

What the SNP is authorised to do is undertake the negotiations to achieve Independence,  and for those they will be including representatives of other parties, so it will not be all SNP. Similarly, after Independence there will be a General Election....and if the SNP get in, in 2016, it will be because the other parties eligible to stand in an Independent Scotland, (and presently that does not include UK Nulabour, UK Tories and UK LibDems, who are registered in England for the Whole UK),  have not managed to come up with anything better/more compelling.

But what *can* be guaranteed is that we won't be spending as much money on "defence".....on wars, on Trident and other aspects of the UK militant tendency, with the most incompetent procurement system bar none...we won't be bankrolling 1500 very expensive self-important members of the Houses of Parliament as well as the Scottish Government, and their the bloated Government departments, quangos and commissions; we won't be spending as much, if Westminster continues playing silly s, on debt interest (as we won't have debt); we won't be funding HS2 and other South of England/London subsidies; we won't be leasing, or buying and maintaining, 5000 Foreign Embassies and approaching 3000 Diplomats; we won't be paying the costs of the privatisation of the NHS and welfare provision,( like ATOS and the PFI hospitals) in the UK which currently reduces the Barnett Block Grant, etc, etc; and what can _also_ be guaranteed is that a Scottish Government will spend the money saved for the benefit of Scotland and all Scots, rather than for the benefit of the already wealthy, the politicians and Global Companies predominantly based in London?

Can _you_ guarantee that, by staying within the Union, with all the threats being made to funding and Barnett by those who would be required to vote for any further devolution, and with Unionist parties who can only agree long enough to say NO to everything Scotland proposes, but can't agree on, or guarantee any further devolution, (which would admittedly be the preference of the majority in Scotland) anything at all would change for the better to reduce poverty and inequality in Scotland?

I have never believed in "better the devil you know" if you _also_ know that devil has no intentions of altering his mindset and will happily tinker round the edges of change, but keep one thumb firmly on the top of your head with the other hand wielding the whip..and there is no way to improve our lot...except by getting out from under..and that chance to get out is the Independence on offer....and not the further devolution which is deliberately (and by a Westminster decision) not on offer.

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## RagnarRocks

Are you suggesting that an independent Scotland would have no embassies no consular staff around the globe ? A vastly reduced military to protect the citizens of a scotland should someone become aggressive, would you them rely on rUK to protect you in a worst case scenario. As for spending on hospitals again you'll still have to fund them if you want the expanded utopian NHS that's talked about so more money. Global companies will still act the same so no change there or just won't deal with Scotland. Westminster has just allowed Scotland to issue bonds so that's a development in devolution extra revenue raising and without Westminster Scotland would pay for everything itself. You'll have to still pay for infrastructure roads rail etc that won't change much just who pays and from where. The political landscape won't change much the parties will still be Labour Conservatives, Lib Dems, SNP. So despite all your wonderful examples the reality is nothing much will change. Quangos no,doubt Scotland will still have them. As for the thumb on top of your head that is just dogma no one oppresses the Scottish that's just the usual rhetoric used by the YES campaign to tug at the emotions of wavering voters.  What you'll have is more of the same with a different name. But without the economies of scale

----------


## Phill

> BECAUSE IN AN INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND MONEY RAISED HERE WILL BE SPENT ON THE PRIORITIES DECIDED BY US WHEN WE VOTE IN OUR SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT.





> Ragnar The proof is there in the figures that show health inequalities in the UK


It seems that the glorious SNP, who were democratically elected by the Scottish people, who run the NHS in Scotland are wideneing these health inequalities.
Under the direction of the SNP lead Scottish govt we are seeing rural health services decimated and being centralised to major towns & cities.

Strange really as Scotland is by and large, a rural country.

Those who live in Caithness can testify to the trips down to Raigmore for anything more than a sticking plaster as services at CGH & in the community have been decimated in recent years by the Scottish Govt.

Currently there is Patient transport and or some subsidy to your travel costs, I understand these will be removed in time.

Some people in Sutherland have to now fund a 5 hour taxi ride to get Scottish NHS treatment.

Did the people of Scotland vote for that?

We keep hearing this utopian dream that as individuals we will decide what happens. But, SNP want to join the EU too.
There is no independence in that. You will have more of the same I'm afraid

----------


## Phill

> To all who are genuinely interested in the for and against arguements regarding the economic implications of independence please watch this, it's really interesting
> http://rt.com/shows/keiser-report/ep...ax-keiser-392/


Ha ha ha ha ha!

Good ole Max. Bumped into him and his sidekick in Laarndun, very entertaining. But he is just a sideshow selling a ponzi scheme.

----------


## Phill

> Independence or no Independence, the health service here will not improve.


Maybe, just maybe, after the vote the Govt can get back to focusing on being a govt delivering services to the electorate rather than using them to buy votes. Which is exactly what Mr Salmond & the SNP have been doing and focusing the benefits into high population areas.

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## Humerous Vegetable

You are talking complete rubbish. Any patient, throughout the UK, will have to travel to a central point for treatment, unless the NHS is prepared to pay for specialists in every general hospital in the country. My partner had to have a CABG 15 years ago, which involved a round trip of 140 miles to Kings College hosp from where we lived at the time. That's how it works. If you decide to live in Caithness, you accept that that the main specialist services will be in Inverness. The Scottish government has ensured that prescriptions are free, which they are not in England. They are doing their best to ensure services are maintained to the highest possible standards with the  money they are graciously "given" by Westminster.
What proof do you have that the NHS in Scotland will not improve after independence?

----------


## squidge

> So there you go more hypocrisy one minute you claim I'm putting your private details out when I just mention the third sector with no reference to you, now your blasting your own private Info out for all and sundry to see.


Its my info to share - not yours to use to cast aspersions.





> Try sticking to the debate its about independence not you :0))


 I am glad you have finally remembered that 






> Where is all the Money going to come from ????


 Where does the money come from now? All the money raised in Scotland goes to Westminster just now. All that money will stay in Scotland.  VAT, road Fund tax also will stay in Scotland. Money from borrowing will stay in Scotland. Money saved from not paying ATOS, not funding the massive number of benefit appeals, not mitigating the effects of the Bedroom Tax, money saved from Trident, money saved from the high speed rail link, money saved from London Sewer Projects will stay in Scotland; Money from the high performing industries that we have will stay in Scotland - food and drink, tourism, creative industries. Money from business growth and inward investment will stay in Scotland. Money from oil and Gas will stay in Scotland.  That money will be available to spend on Scotland's priorities. This is set out here in http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/05/4084 Check it out for yourselves.  

Couple of figures for you - Scotland has 8.4 percent of the population and accounts for 9.9% of all UK Taxes collected.
If we look at Welfare, Scotland currently spends less on Welfare as a percentage of GDP than the UK and most other European Countries. 





> How will Voters influence MPs anymore than they do now


An Independent Scotland will not have MPs nor will there be the house of Lords. 

 If you are asking how will the Scottish Voters Influence the Parliament of n Independent Scotland anymore than they do now then there are several ways that this is proposed.  Firstly there will be prior to the date of Independence a Written Constitution.(i know i know Rags you HATE the idea of  written constititution but this is what is planned - just cos you dont like the answer does not mean there is no answer.)  A written Constitution will set out how our Democracy will work. It will be drawn up by the people of Scotland and work is already underway to explore the issues and how they will be represented in  written constitution.  The White Paper has a whole section devoted to what a written constitution means, how it will be drawn up and what is planned to include.(page 351 - if you want a copy then pm me and i will see you get one)  A written constitution will bind future governments to standards set out from day one of an Independent Scotland. 

Contrast this with the plan to give rights to Constituents to get rid of MPs found to be doing something wrong which was summarily dumped recently by the UK government. Finally, as it stands now, Scotland's voters are unable to make any difference to the result in Westminster. In all but two or three of the elections since the war, the result of each General Election would have been the same without Scotland's votes.  in an Independent Scotland if the result is for a Green Party Majority Government then that is what we will get; if for a Tory/LibDEm coalition then that is what we will get.  If we vote for a Labour Government then we WONT get a Tory/LibDem Coalition. That instantly improves voter influence in one fell swoop because if we can vote a government Scotland Chooses IN then we can vote a government OUT too.




> What will low cost immigration do to the average wage of Scottish workers ???


A report today suggests that the biggest threat to Scotland's financial sector is not the lack of a currency union but the lack of skilled IT specialists over the next few years.  We cannot meet those needs without immigration and the main change that is proposed in an Independent Scotland is that we reintroduce the post study visa - therefore encouraging more skilled and talented people to finish studying and go on to stay and work here.  The effect of an influx of lower paid workers on other lower paid workers will really depend on how much they are paid - the plan to ensure the minimum wage is increased in line with inflation ( not happening now) and to work towards introducing a living wage will ensure that ALL workers' wages improve. I certainly dont agree that the only immigrants coming to Scotland will be low skilled and and low paid workers. That is the same sort of argument that suggested we would be standing room only when Bulgaria and Romania were able to travel and work freely within the EU - that hasnt happened. 




> You do get more like Mr Salmond when asked a difficult question attack rather than answer. 
> 
> I will have to draw the conclusion you have no answers.


 ::

----------


## Rheghead

Whatever happens, yes or no, everyone should get behind the decision of the nation.  If it is a No then the SNP should dissolve itself, independence is proving a costly distraction from the real problems already without being dragged up every 20 years or so.

----------


## squidge

> just reading through the thread and noticed this post, I had missed! I find this remark very patronizing. I am starting to build a clear picture of the personality of the poster. and you have the nerve to suggest that ragnar is making personal comments!!! I see what ragner means, when he says that if you can't win the argument just accuse the opposition of bullying, and call them thick! it doesn't matter how much you simplify it, it won't make sense! you have still not answered how this new "utopian Scotland" is going to be paid for!


I am truly sorry if you thought I was being patronising - you asked questions and I answered them. You said that you did not understand what I had said so I made a suggestion that you say what you dont understand and let someone else answer them.  These ARE complex issues and I may not be the right person to help you find your way through the issues.  At no point did I say you were thick or suggest that you ( or indeed anyone else)  is bullying me. I was not sure whether you were REALLY saying you did not understand or you dont agree with me.  I humbly and utterly apologise if your feelings were hurt even though I have no idea why an offer to help would make you feel that way.  

As for utopia - sigh  - just like i never suggest that independence will be a land of milk and honey, I have never suggested an Independent Scotland would be utopian. Just that it offers the opportunity to change things and have something better than we have now.  As for how it would be paid for - see above.

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## ducati

> Whatever happens, yes or no, everyone should get behind the decision of the nation.


I don't think that will happen. If there is a yes vote and interest rates rocket, as is widely forecast, then rents will increase drastically along with mortgages, reposessions will hit an all time high as (mostly English) lenders panic and try to get out of the market. Homelesness will became much more of a problem than it is now. Scotland like everywhere else hasn't kept up with demand for social housing. Result? Civil unrest on a scale akin to Greece, etc. 

In short, anyone with any kind of a life now will be ruined.

50 years from now, Eck will be as big a historical villain as you can think of.

You may think this is unlikely, I don't and I am defo. not willing to risk it.

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## RagnarRocks

An article on SNP centralisation and how it likes silence dissenters ...
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/to...wned-scotland/

God help us all if this lot get their own way .

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## squidge

Are you sure? 

Edit  - Thanks for changing the link - I was wondering what South Carolina's Evangelicals, a catholic and a mormon have to do with anything - There might actually be a joke in there 

There was a South Carolina Evangelical, a catholic and a mormon..........

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## Phill

> You are talking complete rubbish. Any patient, throughout the UK, will have to travel to a central point for treatment, unless the NHS is prepared to pay for specialists in every general hospital in the country. My partner had to have a CABG 15 years ago, which involved a round trip of 140 miles to Kings College hosp from where we lived at the time. That's how it works. If you decide to live in Caithness, you accept that that the main specialist services will be in Inverness. The Scottish government has ensured that prescriptions are free, which they are not in England. They are doing their best to ensure services are maintained to the highest possible standards with the  money they are graciously "given" by Westminster.
> What proof do you have that the NHS in Scotland will not improve after independence?



What a stunning statement. "If you decide to live in Caithness"
So the bairns that have been born and bred from a long line of Caithnessians must now be forced to travel many hundreds of miles for basic healthcare that has previously provided in the county is acceptable?

Where as anywhere else in Scotland and the UK its not!

Specialist centres are one thing, and to be applauded but rudimentary community healthcare should be just that, delivered in the community not over 100 miles away.

----------


## ducati

> An article on SNP centralisation and how it likes silence dissenters ...
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/to...wned-scotland/
> 
> God help us all if this lot get their own way .


That link goes to a different article I think.

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## RagnarRocks

You mean it mentions The SNP and its apparatchiks are behaving as if they owned Scotland.

Nope its the right article does make you wonder who these paid to post people might be though.

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## ducati

> You mean it mentions The SNP and its apparatchiks are behaving as if they owned Scotland.
> 
> Nope its the right article does make you wonder who these paid to post people might be though.


No, it's about Americans voting for Mormons. Unless I'm completely thick (which is quite likely).  ::

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## squidge

> No, it's about Americans voting for Mormons. Unless I'm completely thick (which is quite likely).


#


Its working now Ducati - I got the mormons catholics and evangelicals too initially

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## ducati

> #
> 
> 
> Its working now Ducati - I got the mormons catholics and evangelicals too initially


Ta......................  :Grin:

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## ducati

> but keep one thumb firmly on the top of your head with the other hand wielding the whip


I know I know I'm only quoting a very small part of your post. But.. How long has this been going on? I have lived in Scotland for over 20 years and I've never even noticed this behaviour of the oppressors. Do they reserve this treatment solely for native born Scots? Or is it evident in particular areas because I've lived in the Borders, East Linton, Edinburgh, Lanarkshire and more recently Caithness? Or... are you imagining it?  ::

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## RagnarRocks

Should be fairly easy to tell them by the small indentation on the top of their heads and the lash marks on their backs unless of course its all a figment of their imaginations.

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## Rheghead

The independence question should be "which is bigger, the chip or the shoulder?"

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## Oddquine

> The independence question should be "which is bigger, the chip or the shoulder?"


The shoulder of the Scots is bigger...the chip on the shoulder of Westminster who can see the possibility of their place in the world being damaged by Scottish Independence and the consequences of no Trident, no oil income, an increased Balance of payments deficit etc is unimportant. They are reaping what they have sown from the days of the Union of the Crowns...and the *only* entity to blame for where we are now is Westminster.

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## RagnarRocks

> The shoulder of the Scots is bigger...the chip on the shoulder of Westminster who can see the possibility of their place in the world being damaged by Scottish Independence and the consequences of no Trident, no oil income, an increased Balance of payments deficit etc is unimportant. They are reaping what they have sown from the days of the Union of the Crowns...and the *only* entity to blame for where we are now is Westminster.


Wow oddquine you're older than I thought you can remember the Union of the Crowns, that's pretty impressive what do you credit your longevity to ?

----------


## Rheghead

It looks like the Yes Campaign has finally collapsed, there was a poll in the P&J and only 17% were prepared to vote Yes

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/3587342

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## Humerous Vegetable

> What a stunning statement. "If you decide to live in Caithness"
> So the bairns that have been born and bred from a long line of Caithnessians must now be forced to travel many hundreds of miles for basic healthcare that has previously provided in the county is acceptable?
> 
> Where as anywhere else in Scotland and the UK its not!
> 
> Specialist centres are one thing, and to be applauded but rudimentary community healthcare should be just that, delivered in the community not over 100 miles away.


I think most medical and nursing staff working in Caithness would rightly be very offended that you consider they are not delivering rudimentary community health care. You appear to have a problem differentiating between "specialist" and "rudimentary".  "Anywhere else in Scotland and the UK" is subject to exactly the same physical constraints, as I have already indicated in my previous post, where we had to travel into London to get *specialist* heart surgery, from where we lived at the time.
I think most of those who have lived in Caithness for a while, are probably a bit more realistic about what procedures should be available to them at their GP surgery or local District General.

Deathly silence on the free prescriptions then.

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## transported

Never having commented on the Org before i have followed this thread and others of similar interest to me closely. I have been quite appalled by the narky comments between both sides of this debate and the continuous question of what will be better if we go for independence or what will be better if we stay part of UK.
I am a Tory voter always have been always will be, I am self employed and  employ roughly 63 other people. I have never voted SNP and never felt any compulsion to do so . 
The vote we will all make is for Independence, not for the SNP. It is being organised by them for the Nation, nothing else about anything they have to say or comments they may make has any influence on me whatsoever. 
Independence is about only one thing, having the right to act in the interest of your own nation, not having to be ruled over by another, regardless of how sympathetic that rule may be. It is about making choices for the good of your own nation and not the those of any other. 
Does it really matter which currency we use, does it really matter which group we belong to, which top table we sit at, which defense organisation we are in. Are we truly likely to be invaded by a foreign power, are we suddenly going to stop making money and spending it. To all of these the answer is a resounding NO. Anyone who infers differently is simply using scare tactics.
The only question we need to ask ourselves on the day of the vote is simply, what does my heart tell me to vote. It may be NO it may be YES but nothing i have read in this thread and others of the same ilk would add a single reason to me to vote in either way.
I will likely vote YES, how much worse could independence be, but oh how much better could the future be if we make it so.

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## Bobinovich

> Never having commented on the Org before i have followed this thread and others of similar interest to me closely. I have been quite appalled by the narky comments between both sides of this debate and the continuous question of what will be better if we go for independence or what will be better if we stay part of UK.
> I am a Tory voter always have been always will be, I am self employed and  employ roughly 63 other people. I have never voted SNP and never felt any compulsion to do so . 
> The vote we will all make is for Independence, not for the SNP. It is being organised by them for the Nation, nothing else about anything they have to say or comments they may make has any influence on me whatsoever. 
> Independence is about only one thing, having the right to act in the interest of your own nation, not having to be ruled over by another, regardless of how sympathetic that rule may be. It is about making choices for the good of your own nation and not the those of any other. 
> Does it really matter which currency we use, does it really matter which group we belong to, which top table we sit at, which defense organisation we are in. Are we truly likely to be invaded by a foreign power, are we suddenly going to stop making money and spending it. To all of these the answer is a resounding NO. Anyone who infers differently is simply using scare tactics.
> The only question we need to ask ourselves on the day of the vote is simply, what does my heart tell me to vote. It may be NO it may be YES but nothing i have read in this thread and others of the same ilk would add a single reason to me to vote in either way.
> I will likely vote YES, how much worse could independence be, but oh how much better could the future be if we make it so.


Spot on! and great first post btw  :Smile:

----------


## squidge

> Spot on! and great first post btw


You are right it is. There is evidence that those who are right of centre will be better served in an Independent Scotland as there is likely to be a change in the parties which will mean there might be a chance of having a right of centre electable party in Scotland.

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## RagnarRocks

Unless of course the vote goes the way the polls are showing with the NO vote gaining momentum and the YES vote stalled

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## squidge

Oh yes the 500 people that the Press and Journal interviwed. Forgive me if I dont give up just yet. Also Rags, if I answered your questions  on this thread can I ask you some back?

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## RagnarRocks

You can ask away whether or not I answer is another matter completely but feel free to try

----------


## squidge

Thanks. 

How will the Westminster Government address the skill shortages that face Scotland's Financial Sector over the next few years? 

Given that I am concerned about Welfare reforms and particularly about the poor performance of the back to work programme, what does the No campaign say will be done to increase the number of people moving into work

.Given that my overriding aspiration is to have a better and fairer society, how can the NO campaign reassure me that something better and fairer is achievable within the UK.

----------


## RagnarRocks

First question , given the amount of university graduates claiming not to be able to find work I'm sure that the financial sector will soon find it has enough people to man those positions, having worked in the financial sector you'll find the remuneration usually makes it worth taking the job and re qualifying if necessary.

Second question . With good stewardship of the economy more jobs become available and unemployment falls as is happening already

Third question. That all depends on how you define fair but I would suggest that the in the UK anyone has the opportunity to make the most of this society hence so many people want to come here to live giving us the immigration problem it really isn't that bad compared to many countries but there always room for improvement and a strong economy means there is more money available for social welfare. Show me another country in the world that has a social healthcare system like the NHS

----------


## squidge

> First question , given the amount of university graduates claiming not to be able to find work I'm sure that the financial sector will soon find it has enough people to man those positions, having worked in the financial sector you'll find the remuneration usually makes it worth taking the job and re qualifying if necessary.Second question . With good stewardship of the economy more jobs become available and unemployment falls as is happening alreadyThird question. That all depends on how you define fair but I would suggest that the in the UK anyone has the opportunity to make the most of this society hence so many people want to come here to live giving us the immigration problem it really isn't that bad compared to many countries but there always room for improvement and a strong economy means there is more money available for social welfare.


Well i was hoping for a little more certainty and evidence. 

So, if you are "sure" how are you sure? 

There hasnt really been much good stewardship of the economy over the last 15 years or so. I dont doubt that many people will go into work. But the Work Programme targets hard to help people. What will staying in the Union do to ensure that the results for this programme improve and these people get to take advantage of the economic recovery? 


If there is room for improvement how will staying as part of the union ensure that those improvements are made,

----------


## Phill

> Given that my overriding aspiration is to have a better and fairer society,


And are you happy that under an SNP the Health Care system is being destroyed in rural areas. It's all fine and dandy for those living in a town or city, SNP make it look rosey and bonnie.

I just hope that with a yes vote, there is a continued effort by the pro indy folk to really get democracy into Scotland. Firstly a referendum on the EU, which is not on offer now.
I hope that people fight to get the services they deserve right across Scotland.

I fear however that it will all stall once the Inglish have been ran out of town.

----------


## RagnarRocks

> Well i was hoping for a little more certainty and evidence. So, if you are "sure" how are you sure? There hasnt really been much good stewardship of the economy over the last 15 years or so. I dont doubt that many people will go into work. But the Work Programme targets hard to help people. What will staying in the Union do to ensure that the results for this programme improve and these people get to take advantage of the economic recovery? If there is room for improvement how will staying as part of the union ensure that those improvements are made,


Yes Squidge poor stewardship under Labour but the debate isn't about what's going t change if we stay part of the Union its about Independence. 
I know you think its the states job to find everyone jobs and have highly paid advisors to remind you which side of the toilet paper to use. But that's just how you feel. Trying to reverse the argument is not a particularly clever trick. 
The Economy is on the mend. Inflation is down, Unemployment is Down there's the proof and certainty its actually happening although you choose to ignore it. The fact we have a million unemployed youths shows we have sufficient people to fill vacancies, perhaps if someone told them that getting a job requires, time keeping, a few manners, dressing appropriately, and occasionally doing something because its a job, not because it isn't your ideal job working in media or whatever you've been taught is your perfect scenario, oh and occasionally you have to move.

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## RagnarRocks

It was interesting to watch the reporting Scotland debate last night it would appear the SNP spokeswoman was having a hard time explaining how anything would be paid for or what a plan b is or if they actually have on. Flummoxed is the word I'd use to describe her performance .

----------


## Oddquine

> Well i was hoping for a little more certainty and evidence. 
> 
> So, if you are "sure" how are you sure? 
> 
> There hasnt really been much good stewardship of the economy over the last 15 years or so. I dont doubt that many people will go into work. But the Work Programme targets hard to help people. What will staying in the Union do to ensure that the results for this programme improve and these people get to take advantage of the economic recovery? 
> 
> 
> If there is room for improvement how will staying as part of the union ensure that those improvements are made,


And there are more basic questions which could be asked to clarify the prospects for Scotland within the Union from September 19th if there is a NO vote.....like........

With the Government and UKIP squaring up to the European Union, and a  promised referendum, will the UK remain a member of the EU?

 With Westminster politicians threatening to uproot the Barnett  formula and cut Scottish funding by £4 billion, how secure are Scottish  finances after a No vote?

Will the UK  still be one of the most unequal countries in the developed world?
 

 Can Scotland trust Westminster to deliver any further devolution,  given that depends on the votes of the UK Parliament? In fact, can it be  trusted not to roll back devolution altogether, as has been mooted by  some?

 And, finally...... regarding the prospect of a currency union.or even just using sterling unilaterally..... _If it is not independence, as many No campaigners claim, then surely many unionists will feel able to vote for it._........and if not.........why not?

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## RagnarRocks

Surely the offer of a referendum on the EU is the most democratic way to decide whether we stay in the EU or not I don't see the SNP offering any such thing just closer ties with Europe which doesn't seem very Democratic

Nothing can be guaranteed in life why do you ask for guarantees from Westminster when the SNP have made no guarantees.

Its the job of the SNP to have laid out their plans correctly re currency it appears they have been incompetent on this issue and failed to get their facts right in the first place.

If you're so concerned about fairness and equality within the UK why do you wish to remove yourself from it and treat the rest of the UK as people you don't care about.

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## squidge

> Nothing can be guaranteed in life why do you ask for guarantees from Westminster when the SNP have made no guarantees.


Facepalm!!!!!




> Yes Squidge poor stewardship under Labour but  the debate isn't about what's going t change if we stay part of the  Union its about Independence.


 but see Rags  - that is part of it for me.  If we Stay in the union what will change - how will we influence change and how will we have some reassurance that the issues that are important to me and others like me. 





> I know you think its the states job to find everyone jobs and have  highly paid advisors to remind you which side of the toilet paper to  use.(Edit ...) But that's just how you feel. Trying to reverse the argument is not  a particularly clever trick. 
> The Economy is on the mend. Inflation is down, Unemployment is Down  there's the proof and certainty its actually happening although you  choose to ignore it. The fact we have a million unemployed youths shows  we have sufficient people to fill vacancies, perhaps if someone told  them that getting a job requires, time keeping, a few manners, dressing  appropriately, and occasionally doing something because its a job, not  because it isn't your ideal job working in media or whatever you've been  taught is your perfect scenario, oh and occasionally you have to  move.


But see Ragnar - these are the issues that are important to me.  Im not playing any tricks just asking for some answers and so far pretty much all you have said is "because I say so". 

Thats Not good enough

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## squidge

> And are you happy that under an SNP the Health Care system is being destroyed in rural areas. It's all fine and dandy for those living in a town or city, SNP make it look rosey and bonnie.


IS it being destroyed? Thats a real question Phil  - you clearly feel really strongly about this so Im sure that you know better than me what is not working properly.  As I understand it it there are real problems around a whole range of issues - transport, access to specialist services, maternity - there needs to be an understanding of what should be provided - even in rural areas across the whole range of NHS services - not just hospitals.  The Scottish government has worked succesfully with the voluntary sector in some areas to make sure that these essential services are delivered as locally as possible or with the help of new technology. But ssues around out of hours care, district nurse care, psychiatric care abound and there are no easy answers. Securing staff is a real problem and yet we have newly qualified nurses struggling to get work. Seems to me there is a lot to fix.  

We arent the only country in the world to have issues around rural healthcare and we need to be better at looking to Europe and seeing what we can learn from rural Europe about delivering healthcare in rural communities.






> I just hope that with a yes vote, there is a continued effort by the pro indy folk to really get democracy into Scotland. Firstly a referendum on the EU, which is not on offer now.
> I hope that people fight to get the services they deserve right across Scotland.
> 
> I fear however that it will all stall once the Inglish have been ran out of town.


There are pro indy people who are keen to get a referendum on Europe -I know the Scottish Government don't plan one but you will be able to vote for the party which offers  that or even a straightforward exit from the EU in 2016.

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## RagnarRocks

Well my minds made up no amount of politicking from you Squidge is going to change that so I'm bailing on this thread it gets a bit like having root canal work without anaesthetic.

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## ducati

> Well my minds made up no amount of politicking from you Squidge is going to change that so I'm bailing on this thread it gets a bit like having root canal work without anaesthetic.


Well, remember what a certain lady Prime Minister said. Socialism seems like a good idea until you run out of someone elses money.  ::

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## Alrock

> Well, remember what a certain lady Prime Minister said. Socialism seems like a good idea until you run out of someone elses money.


Everything seems like a good idea until you run out of money, no matter who's it is.

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## ducati

> Well my minds made up no amount of politicking from you Squidge is going to change that so I'm bailing on this thread it gets a bit like having root canal work without anaesthetic.


Same here. All we've proved is it is an increasingly bitter argument. I'm not looking forward to either outcome. Some of the posters are ill informed, or blinkered due to their politics, some are frankly, barking.

All we are doing is turning off people who genuinely want answers.

And anyway the thread now has nothing to do with the original question.

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## RagnarRocks

Another day, another hole blown in Alex Salmonds case for breaking up Britain. The IFS has today published its estimates (based on the OBRs) for Scottish oil and gas revenues, and theyre less than half those of the SNP administration in Edinburgh.Salmond forecast oil and gas revenues of between £6.8 billion and £7.9 billion in 2016-17. The IFS puts it at £3.3 billion. Salmonds best-case scenario for 2017-18 has Scotland with a deficit of 1.0 per cent of GDP; the IFSs figures suggest thatll be closer to 3.6 per cent of GDP. A country like Britain can ride out such fluctuations, but Salmond may find hes swapping rule from London by rule by OPEC. On the basis of these new figures, the IFS has calculated that cutting an independent Scotland would have to keep cutting  if it didnt, its deficit in 2018-19 would more than double. Salmond has complained long and loud about cuts made by the coalition in areas like welfare, but he should not pretend the fiscal options of an independent Scotland would be any more attractive.

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## Mrs Bradey

> Well, remember what a certain lady Prime Minister said. Socialism seems like a good idea until you run out of someone elses money.


who was that?

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## Mrs Bradey

> Same here. All we've proved is it is an increasingly bitter argument. I'm not looking forward to either outcome. Some of the posters are ill informed, or blinkered due to their politics, some are frankly, barking.All we are doing is turning off people who genuinely want answers.And anyway the thread now has nothing to do with the original question.


hope I have been at categorized as barking!!

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## ducati

> hope I have been at categorized as barking!!


Who said that?  ::

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## bekisman

Oh dear wot's been going on? Only been away for a couple of weeks, down in Kernow (best Cream tea in Bodmin and Philps pasties in Hayle Lizz!)
I see one of the best informed posters; RagnerRocks has been banned! Why? but having been on these pages for many a year I won't be told (PM's please?) 
I read that Ducati also looks a little fed up with the ill-informed waffle that pervades this space. Oh well seems Squidge has the place to herself. Never mind another six months and this nonsense will be all over. I see that BoE bloke says that Salmond MUST go for Euro as it's (honest Alex) a non-goer with 'sharing the £'. And I can't see voters wanting the Euro, hmm. 
As a matter of interest down in ENGLAND (that's not who rules Scotland, you know, England is NOT an Independent country - are the Nats aware of this?)  It was intimated that they thought that Mr Salmond had said the £ was a _'stone around the Scottish neck'_ Eh? yes it was rather embarrassing to have to try and explain 'he'd changed his mind'.   They also asked why everyone in England was a 'Toff' - this seemed to be applied to just the Tories, again I tried to explain that the Nats were not very cosmopolitan, and a lot were not well traveled, and to just well; ignore it.

Never mind, it was a nice 700+ mile drive home in lovely weather, bit of a hiatus going over the A9 where the hill-billy Councillors had decided in their ill-perceived wisdom NOT to have any service stations along the whole length - to 'help the bypassed communities' it appears (indeed) try telling that to an eight year old who 'wants a wee' and it's late with these 'by-passed communities' closed for the night! tut tut. AND these three 'over-taking lanes' that are on the same side on the way north - what idiot thought of that? Oh well must not go on.. this after all WAS an Independence thread?

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