# General > General >  poppy day

## Doreen

I believe that shop assistants have been told in certain big stores to take there poppies of for rememberance day of or go home how disgraceful is that what has britain become all that brave soldiers that fought the war to keep us safe and all that has lost there lives because it is upsetting other religions what can i say i will wear my poppy with great pride.

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## *Martin*

Aaaaaaah so you seen Facebook this morning also?It's true that a member of staff in pound land was asked to remove her poppy in Northern Ireland. Pound land have now changed their policies and staff are allowed to wear the poppy. Contrary to Facebook, bodyshop have never stopped anyone wearing the poppy.

Good on ya for wearing your poppy with pride, everyone should!

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## Doreen

> Aaaaaaah so you seen Facebook this morning also?It's true that a member of staff in pound land was asked to remove her poppy in Northern Ireland. Pound land have now changed their policies and staff are allowed to wear the poppy. Contrary to Facebook, bodyshop have never stopped anyone wearing the poppy.
> 
> Good on ya for wearing your poppy with pride, everyone should!


Thanks Martin did not give any names of the companys but theres a few but i hope yer with me with this wear yer poppy wi pride Cheers Martin :Grin:

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## Moira

It would be good if you could provide a link to this Doreen.  That way we could all decide for ourselves.  :Smile:

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## Doreen

Go on facebook i am not saying anyting that will offend any people but its true last year i wont say who but they burnt poppies in Londen saying british soldiers die in hell if we were in there country we would have our heads cut of if we went against there religion

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## Moira

I thought this was National News and I'd missed it Doreen.   Thanks for the reply though.  :Smile:

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## Doreen

> It would be good if you could provide a link to this Doreen.  That way we could all decide for ourselves.


Oh no another one that wants to rant and goes to the far end of a fart and try to say its ok for us british to put up with this crap our rememberance day means a lot to all the eldery so come on be proud if your british and get yer poppy on .

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## Doreen

Your welcome Moira keep up wi the times as if you dont know or is it just ignorance and you dont want to believe how soft 
us British are

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## theone

I wonder if we'll see protests at British football grounds like last year?

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## Doreen

Who gives a toss about footie were talking about brave men and wimen that fought for britain .

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## theone

> Who gives a toss about footie were talking about brave men and wimen that fought for britain .


You make a statement about people from "there country" and "there religion" disrespecting remembrance day but then don't "give a toss" if Brits or Christians do it?

Unbelievable.

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## rogermellie

am i reading this correctly ?

have those Celtic fans gone to all the bother of making a huge sign and then spelled bloodstained as 'Bloostained' ?   ::   what plankers

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## Rheghead

There are more elements of fiction than fact to these allegations.

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/poundland-poppy-ban.shtml

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## gleeber

It's ironic that a symbol that should represent remembrance can turn into something that makes us forget. Poppys cause trouble every year. The BBC have already had complaints from viewers complaining that some women presenters are wearing their poppys on the wrong side.
What was it that poppys were meant to make us remember? It's so easy to forget.

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## sids

> The BBC have already had complaints from viewers complaining that some women presenters are wearing their poppys on the wrong side.



Maybe they were German women.

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## sids

> am i reading this correctly ?
> 
> have those Celtic fans gone to all the bother of making a huge sign and then spelled bloodstained as 'Bloostained' ?    what plankers


Maybe it's a pun on the other team's favourite colour.

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## Hoida

I will wear my poppy with pride. My father and four brothers were all in the army and I was brought up to wear my poppy and remember all those who had served their country. My nephew is due to go to Afghanistan early next year for 6 months and I think on all these young men and women leaving wives parents and children not knowing if they will come back. Surely we owe it to them to buy a poppy and wear it with pride.

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## Crackeday

Its a pity that some feel it right to have demos on poppy day. Dont these thick inbreds not realise that its due to brave men and women all over the world that they have the right to protest at all?
They make my blood boil, especially when "they" live in "our" country and class themselves "civilised".

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## Dadie

I didnt realise there was debate on where to wear the poppy.
Or when its acceptable to start wearing them.
I usually have to buy a few to last me until the 11th...but dont start wearing them until the 1st of Nov.
And as for which side, I must admit im confused.
But does it really matter what side the poppy is worn on as long as its worn for pride and rememberance?
And just what is it with the green stems and stick on poppies that are impossible to attatch to your clothing?
And why do the English ones have a leaf while the Scottish ones dont?
And I have seen poppies in different colours ...a purple one ...why?
Sorry for all the questions.X

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## RecQuery

I'm just going to say it: I don't like the Poppy Appeal and I never have. I don't like the jingoistic symbolism. I don't like the fawning. I don't like being pressured into buying them and I don't like people asking where my Poppy is and why I'm not wearing one. Kindly leave me alone.

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## golach

> ?
> And why do the English ones have a leaf while the Scottish ones dont?Sorry for all the questions.X


Dadie its really simple why the Scots Poppy has no leaf. Poppyscotland decided a few years ago, the more money could be raised if the cost of the leaf was done away with in production.

And the Purple poppy is to remember all the animals killed by war


There is also a white poppy, maybe that is worn by recquery and them that think and feel like him.

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## The Pepsi Challenge

For me, the politicisation of the poppy has meant that it no longer represents the war dead of WWI and WWII -  what the originally poppy stood for. The majority of those slaughtered and killed in those wars were conscripts: in WWI they were sent over the top to die in one of the most pointless and stupid wars ever; in WWII, they fought against the evils of Nazism and how glad I am they did. 

However, the poppy is now being attached to maudlin tosh like Help For Heroes - victims of all wars, most of whom were career soldiers. They chose that occupation with all its consequences and have been engaged in battles all over the world where they were/ are neither wanted nor needed.

People can buy poppies if they so wish. I have no problem with it. By the same token, people who don't want to wear them shouldn't be forced to just because it's perceived (wrongly in my opinion) as the right thing to do. 



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## theone

> People can buy poppies if they so wish. I have no problem with it. By the same token, people who don't want to wear them shouldn't be forced to just because it's perceived (wrongly in my opinion) as the right thing to do.


I would agree that people shouldn't be forced (I don't think they are) to wear one, but choosing not to wear a poppy is a completely different matter to defacing one or negative use in political protest. 

Conscript or career soldier - irrelevant in my eyes.

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## golach

Pepsi, maybe a white feather would be more appropriate for you  ::

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## The Pepsi Challenge

> Pepsi, maybe a white feather would be more appropriate for you


I'm no coward or pacifist, golach. Just my opinion is all.

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## RecQuery

> Pepsi, maybe a white feather would be more appropriate for you


On a side note that entire thing annoyed me when I read about it in history class, those safe, stupid, interfering women trying to shame people into going to war.

I do make a distinction between a career solider and a conscript, though there is some scope for people coerced into joining the military for economic reasons or via dodgy recruiting tactics. To me the poppy has become like those flag pins people in the US wear, a meaning trinket, a politicised bit of flair. Also if every solider is a hero then none are, the word weakens as it's over used. I notice the UK moving towards a certain US masturbatory fawning attitude with regards to the military and it frightens me.

I also don't have a problem with people defacing the poppy etc, after all what did these people fight for if not the freedom for people to protest. I may not agree with what people do but I'd make damn sure they're allowed to do it.

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## Crackeday

> I also don't have a problem with people defacing the poppy etc, after all what did these people fight for if not the freedom for people to protest. I may not agree with what people do but I'd make damn sure they're allowed to do it.


I find that post very offensive, "defacing the poppy" that is not freedom that is a complete disregard of millions of people worldwide who made personal sacrifices for the better of the WHOLE planet, not just a bunch of hypocrites who qoute "freedom" but wouldnt have the cahonas to actually help create "freedom".

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## RecQuery

> I find that post very offensive, "defacing the poppy" that is not freedom that is a complete disregard of millions of people worldwide who made personal sacrifices for the better of the WHOLE planet, not just a bunch of hypocrites who qoute "freedom" but wouldnt have the cahonas to actually help create "freedom".


So these millions of people made personal sacrifices, for the WHOLE planet*, so that the WHOLE planet could have freedom and personal choice, yet you can't criticise the political hijacking that has happened to their remembrance and if you do you're insulted as being weak and cowardly. Defacing, burning in effigy etc are perfectly legitimate and symbolic methods of protesting, because some people invest too much meaning into a thing/inanimate object instead of the idea. I'm not saying I'd do but still the point stands, I may not like what you're saying or doing but I'll defend that right.

* I'd actually argue that point, in retrospect it was for the whole of the planet but at the time it was for empire, power and because the people in charge told them to. I'm sure some did do it for altruistic reasons though.

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## golach

> I also don't have a problem with people defacing the poppy etc, after all what did these people fight for if not the freedom for people to protest. I may not agree with what people do but I'd make damn sure they're allowed to do it.


Can I suggest if you have no problem about people defacing the poppy, to come to Princes St Gardens Edinburgh to the Memorial Garden beside the monument to Sir Walter Scott on Monday 7th Nov, and deface some. Or may I suggest you go to any of the Caithness Memorials that will be held on the 13th Nov. I will take a bet you do not have the guts to do either.
Your big and brave sitting at your keyboard and hiding behind your screen. You internet warriors make me sick!!  ::  ::  ::

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## RecQuery

> Can I suggest if you have no problem about people defacing the poppy, to come to Princes St Gardens Edinburgh to the Memorial Garden beside the monument to Sir Walter Scott on Monday 4th Nov, and deface some. Or may I suggest you go to any of the Caithness Memorials that will be held on the 13th Nov. I will take a bet you do not have the guts to do either.
> Your big and brave sitting at your keyboard and hiding behind your screen. You internet warriors make me sick!!


Really now, seems to me that you're the one acting like an internet tough guy (that's the term you're looking for by the way) with your antagonistic remarks and attacks on anyone that doesn't agree with you. I urge you to read both my posts again.




> ...I may not agree with what people do but I'd make damn sure they're allowed to do it...





> ...I'm not saying I do but still the point stands, I may not like what you're saying or doing but I'll defend that right...


Ignoring that your implication is that because I potentially don't agree with you then I must be a cowardly person.

I must comment your omniscience, mind reading ability or deductive reasoning. Somehow through special powers or some forum posts you have been able to gain unprecedented insight into my character and personality(!).

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## tonkatojo

I couldn't believe what was on local (Tyneside) telly, the thieving scum of the area are actually taking the bronze name plaques from our war memorials to weigh in for scrap, what is it coming to, no doubt for a fix or bottle of cider.

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## secrets in symmetry

I wish the jingoistic, poppy pouting ne'er-do-wrongs would just shut up and wear their poppies with pride - and leave the rest of us alone. Some of them  discourage a lot of people from contributing to the poppy fund. Threads that start out with rabid untruths don't help.

I don't support the jingoism (as you can probably tell) but I'm very happy to contribute to any fund which helps those military personnel who sustained physical and psychological injuries to lead a better life.

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## pat

As ex service myself, I support many service and ex-service charities but I personally have not worn a poppy for many years I give my money and want nothing in return.
I would rather all my money goes to the charity than have a small token which often costs as much to make as some of the donations given,  collected for quite a few years for Earl Haig Fund - the poppy fund, so know how hard it used to be to collect running up to Remembrance Day.
I frequently wear my Veterans Badge though.

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## gleeber

Ive always respected the poppy thing because I grew up with it and paid homage without any thought. Because of modern communications like the internet we are now exposed to a variety of different opinions and on my part its thought provoking. I can understand Golachs outrage but im begining to see what the opposers are saying. Some of its valid too. Its good to talk about it though.

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## gleeber

My grandad used to cough and splutter in the house and very often he would be awake during the night with it. It was something to do with gas in the first world war.  He used to take me to the remembrance thing every year. He never said why or anything like that but I worked it out that it meant a lot to him. Thats been lost and its a pity.

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## golach

> I can understand Golachs outrage but im begining to see what the opposers are saying .


Gleeber I am not outraged, I am *disgusted* at the like of the mealy mouthed so called opposers, such as the Pepsi and Recquery, if it was not for those fallen who gave their lives , that pair would not be living the life styles they enjoy now. I wear my poppy with pride, and humility in rememberance of those who died so the world could be a better place.
I also marched proudly down the Royal Mile in June to show my support to all our Armed Forces, and loved being cheered and clapped at by thousands of spectators, as did many Veterans of many ages and walks of life. So when I see and hear the crap the forementioned spout makes my blood boil!!!!!!!

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## Doreen

> Gleeber I am not outraged, I am *disgusted* at the like of the mealy mouthed so called opposers, such as the Pepsi and Recquery, if it was not for those fallen who gave their lives , that pair would not be living the life styles they enjoy now. I wear my poppy with pride, and humility in rememberance of those who died so the world could be a better place.
> I also marched proudly down the Royal Mile in June to show my support to all our Armed Forces, and loved being cheered and clapped at by thousands of spectators, as did many Veterans of many ages and walks of life. So when I see and hear the crap the forementioned spout makes my blood boil!!!!!!!


And so you should be proud Golach well ive got my poppy and proud to wear it.

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## rob murray

> Gleeber I am not outraged, I am *disgusted* at the like of the mealy mouthed so called opposers, such as the Pepsi and Recquery, if it was not for those fallen who gave their lives , that pair would not be living the life styles they enjoy now. I wear my poppy with pride, and humility in rememberance of those who died so the world could be a better place.
> I also marched proudly down the Royal Mile in June to show my support to all our Armed Forces, and loved being cheered and clapped at by thousands of spectators, as did many Veterans of many ages and walks of life. So when I see and hear the crap the forementioned spout makes my blood boil!!!!!!!


Take some time and re read pepsi's post, far be it for me to defend the guy, but the poppy originates from Flanders and WW1, a war fought by a citizen army, the British Army pre 1914 as deployed at the start of WW1 ( the professional solders ) was decimated at Mons in 1914, therafter the army was a volunteer army until conscription was introduced in 1916. A citizens army, and thats a fact. Likewise WW2 being a mix of professionals and conscripts. WW1 was pointless, an inmperial struggle for power, WW2 we fought nazism and fascism and thank god we won. I wear a poppy every year to commemorate the citizen armies and to remember my grand dad ( Seaforth Highlanders, wounded at Beaumont Hamel ) and my father ( Royal Engineers WW2 ) thats my choice, my brother has just completed 24 years army service, serving in Iraq twice, Afghanistan, NI 5 times, now he doesnt see himself as a hero, he chose to be a career soldier and had a good career. My grand dad volunteered at 17, my dad was conscripted ( and frankly lost 7 years of his youth ) he didnt see him self as a hero, the older generation did what they did, came home and lived their lives. Personally I am very suspicous of the whole "heros malarky" and I expect many others are to. I know many ex service men are also embarrased by the term "hero", they are just ordinary guys, some who had to deal with extraordinary circumstances as part of a job !

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## Gronnuck

> Gleeber I am not outraged, I am *disgusted* at the like of the mealy mouthed so called opposers, such as the Pepsi and Recquery, if it was not for those fallen who gave their lives , that pair would not be living the life styles they enjoy now. I wear my poppy with pride, and humility in rememberance of those who died so the world could be a better place.
> I also marched proudly down the Royal Mile in June to show my support to all our Armed Forces, and loved being cheered and clapped at by thousands of spectators, as did many Veterans of many ages and walks of life. So when I see and hear the crap the forementioned spout makes my blood boil!!!!!!!


golach your attitude exemplifies everything that is wrong with the Poppy Appeal. You have hijacked what was supposed to be a simple act of remembrance and turned it into a political cosh with which to beat everyone who exercises their freedom to think and act differently.
I was a career soldier; I served 26 years and 31 days, my Records Office kindly kept count. I didnt join the Army for any altruistic reasons, I just wanted to get out more.
I dont wear a poppy because they usually drop off and I lose them. I do support the RBL and other service charities. But I do get annoyed by some peoples holier-than-thou attitude, especially when they attempt to deny the very freedoms our forebears sacrificed so much for.

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## secrets in symmetry

> And so you should be proud Golach well ive got my poppy and proud to wear it.


So...when are you going to come clean and admit that your opening post was a pack of evil lies?

You and golach have achieved something with your posts - you have alienated (at least) one supporter of the poppy campaign. Read Gronnuck's post and repent.

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## Cloud Puncher

I agree with Gronnuck, I am a veteran and wear my poppy with pride. However I dont mind if people who dont want to wear one dont, freedom to chose is what the poppy is all about after all. I have a metal poppy lapel badge I wear all round.

I was however quite angry to read that a previous poster is upset that the poppy is being associated with the "maudlin tosh" of Help for Heroes. The poppy commerates the fallen of all wars and conflicts and as such it is entirely appropriate that it is associated with our most recent fallen servicemen and women. It is certainly NOT appropriate in my view to hijack the poppy symbol for your own ends by painting it white and putting "peace" on it, that smacks of disrespect to me. Get your own symbol. I served and would not call myself a hero, neither would any of the wounded that I see as a fundraiser for H4H but then I, and they, did not chose the name. I take heart in the fact that the British public have raised over £100,000,000 to look after wounded service personnel let down by the Government that sent them into action. Fantastic effort in these austere times and a sign of the feeling the vast majority have for those who take the shilling.

Wear your poppy or dont, either is fine by me. But respect for it should ALWAYS be shown whatever your point of view.

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## Bazeye

Wonder what'll happen to the two stupid  teenagers who posted pictures of themselves on facebook burning a poppy. Got to be a £50 fine after last years precedent was set. Hasn't it?

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## Gronnuck

> Wonder what'll happen to the two stupid teenagers who posted pictures of themselves on facebook burning a poppy. Got to be a £50 fine after last years precedent was set. Hasn't it?


Of course I am irritated by people who burn poppies but the number of people who do so are infinitesimal compared to the numbers who really care.  They only get attention because a lot of people get wound up too easily.  In the greater scheme of things I get more rattled by the erosion of the military covenant by successive political administrations.  If you need/want a cause, look to lobbying the grubbiement to preserve and enhance the military covenant.

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## Bazeye

> Of course I am irritated by people who burn poppies but the number of people who do so are infinitesimal compared to the numbers who really care. They only get attention because a lot of people get wound up too easily.


I dont think being outraged by that is getting wound up too easily. More like being wound up under extreme provocation.

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## Cloud Puncher

> Wonder what'll happen to the two stupid teenagers who posted pictures of themselves on facebook burning a poppy. Got to be a £50 fine after last years precedent was set. Hasn't it?


I love the fact that they obviously went out and bought the poppies, therefore contributing to the appeal, and then burnt them as a sign of protest. 

Nuggets.

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## secrets in symmetry

Great posts Gronnuck and Cloud Puncher - which is a great name! Do you prefer to punch cumulus or nimbus?  :: 

Fining idiots for burning poppies that they've bought themselves would be the first step on the route to a totalitarian state. It's the sort of idiotic thing that dictatorships do - whether in the Middle East or anywhere else in the world. We are above all that nonsense.

Desecrating poppies on a memorial is a different beast. It's gut-wrenching vandalism of the worst type.

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## RecQuery

> Great posts Gronnuck and Cloud Puncher - which is a great name! Do you prefer to punch cumulus or nimbus? 
> 
> Fining idiots for burning poppies that they've bought themselves would be the first step on the route to a totalitarian state. It's the sort of idiotic thing that dictatorships do - whether in the Middle East or anywhere else in the world. We are above all that nonsense.
> 
> Desecrating poppies on a memorial is a different beast. It's gut-wrenching vandalism of the worst type.


Yeah imagine that protestors protesting when it'll have the most impact, who'd have thunk it.

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## secrets in symmetry

> Yeah imagine that protestors protesting when it'll have the most impact, who'd have thunk it.


Will you be going out to desecrate poppies on the war memorial in Wick then RecQuery?

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## Gronnuck

> I dont think being outraged by that is getting wound up too easily. More like being wound up under extreme provocation.


OK it's distasteful, outrageous even provocative but most veterans have experienced far worse; until fairly recently far worse than the general public were ever allowed to hear about.  Of course many ex-servicemen and women would like to give them a slap, but in the greater scheme of things the actions of a few numpties are but an irritation.  I know many veterans who are dismayed by those who encourage them by giving them the oxygen of publicity instead of maintaining a dignified silence, (now that would really infuriate these protesters).

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## RecQuery

> Will you be going out to desecrate poppies on the war memorial in Wick then RecQuery?


You've fallen into the same trap as Golach, just because I support and defend peoples rights and play devil's advocate with their position. That doesn't mean I support their methods. I'm against the beatification of the military but I pick and choose my battles.

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## secrets in symmetry

> You've fallen into the same trap as Golach, just because I support and defend peoples rights and play devil's advocate with their position. That doesn't mean I support their methods. I'm against the beatification of the military but I pick and choose my battles.


Lol! Don't be so naive - I was playing the same silly game you were.

I forgot to say in a previous post that I don't agree with Cloud Puncher's comment about white poppies. The choice of a poppy of a different colour for their campaign was a piece of genius.

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## bekisman

> I'm just going to say it: I don't like the Poppy Appeal and I never have. I don't like the jingoistic symbolism. I don't like the fawning. I don't like being pressured into buying them and I don't like people asking where my Poppy is and why I'm not wearing one. Kindly leave me alone.


Nobody stirred you in the first place..

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## Gronnuck

> I forgot to say in a previous post that I don't agree with Cloud Puncher's comment about white poppies. The choice of a poppy of a different colour for their campaign was a piece of genius.


Genius indeed - In 1933 the Co-operative Women's Guild produced the first white poppies to be worn on Armistice Day (later called Remembrance Day). The Guild stressed that the white poppy was not intended as an insult to those who died in the First World War; a war in which many of the women lost husbands, brothers and sons; but a challenge to the continuing ambitions for war. The following year the newly founded Peace Pledge Union joined the CWG in the distribution of the poppies and later took over their annual promotion. The Peace Pledge Union continues its work today.
Animal Aid wishes to draw our attention to the thousands of animals used by the military and die each year. They have adopted the use of the purple poppy.
Whether or not you agree with the Peace Pledge Union or Animal Aid the fact remains that these victims of war paid a price too. As with conscripts in WWI and WWII they didnt get a choice. We should remember them all.
IMHO the political motives of the Peace Pledge Union and Animal Aid are no more distasteful than the motives of the politicians who fidget alongside the Cenotaph during the annual Remembrance Service.

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## Doreen

> So...when are you going to come clean and admit that your opening post was a pack of evil lies?
> 
> You and golach have achieved something with your posts - you have alienated (at least) one supporter of the poppy campaign. Read Gronnuck's post and repent.


wWell if thats what you think well thats up to you i am aloud to have my say and i am no liar and dont really give a toss what you think who in the hell do you think you are in fact i should not have even given you the time of day replying .

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## secrets in symmetry

> wWell if thats what you think well thats up to you i am aloud to have my say and i am no liar and dont really give a toss what you think who in the hell do you think you are in fact i should not have even given you the time of day replying .


So...you start the thread with a pack of lies, you rant at others for not agreeing with you, and now you start shouting at me for correcting you. You need to take a long look in the mirror young lady.

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## Doreen

> So...you start the thread with a pack of lies, you rant at others for not agreeing with you, and now you start shouting at me for correcting you. You need to take a long look in the mirror young lady.


So what evil lies have i said and who do you think you are and i never ranted at anyone why dont you go into a room and have a word with yourself  ::

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## secrets in symmetry

> So what evil lies have i said and who do you think you are and i never ranted at anyone why dont you go into a room and have a word with yourself


Your first post is full of untruths.

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## Doreen

> Your first post is full of untruths.


O wheesht what crap you talk im no going to reply to your childish dribble you want to ignore that my opening post was true but because you disagree and call me a liar you go and spit the dummy out have a nice evening ::

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## secrets in symmetry

> O wheesht what crap you talk im no going to reply to your childish dribble you want to ignore that my opening post was true but because you disagree and call me a liar you go and spit the dummy out have a nice evening


Your first two posts in this thread are full of untruths. Can you not understand that?

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## gleeber

What a carry on over poppys. I told you poppys were trouble.  :: 
The poppies when I was younger were much classier. Well made of some cloth material with a bonnie green leef in the backround and a fine big pin so as you never lost a poppy and only ever needed to buy one.  They looked real, kinda. Nowadays they look plastic. It's like the whole things been devalued.
Its good to talk about it. Ive learnt a lot from this thread.  ::

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## Dadie

My poppy only lasted a day before the weather destroyed it!
Im still wondering how to attach the poppies to my eldest childs jacket without losing the said poppy within 5 mins with the sticky tape on it or impaling her or getting a note home from school about using a pin(elf n safety)!
Mine has left a lasting mark as it went through the washing machine....pink bits on whites....
Bring back the poppies of old..nice ones that last the couple of weeks if not more!
Im sure there was a nice story in the papers a while back of one old guy that recycles their poppy year in year out...must be one that lasts.
Or diversify and have a trendy wristband etc that kids can wear as well as the traditional poppies.
I wonder what the diehard poppy wearers would think about wristbands though.....

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## gleeber

I think wristbands for children would be a good idea. They would need to know an awaful lot more about the tradition and the reasons for it than they know now. I wonder if maybe poppys are little more than a way of paying lip service to our own vanity.

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## Dadie

Other charities can do wristbands that are kid friendly and believe it or not cool to collect!
And lose ..Im a mum...I know they can lose something special within seconds of having it!
But wristbands are sort of trendy within the teens/tweenies about things they "feel" about.
I would imagine it would be a deep red with a poppy stamped in it and a.. for those who did, we dont forget. message stamped on it.
Absolutely no need for lest we forget as the kids wont get it!

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## Cloud Puncher

> Great posts Gronnuck and Cloud Puncher - which is a great name! Do you prefer to punch cumulus or nimbus? 
> 
> Fining idiots for burning poppies that they've bought themselves would be the first step on the route to a totalitarian state. It's the sort of idiotic thing that dictatorships do - whether in the Middle East or anywhere else in the world. We are above all that nonsense.
> 
> Desecrating poppies on a memorial is a different beast. It's gut-wrenching vandalism of the worst type.


Have to agree. Anyone who has bought a poppy owns it, if they want to burn it then go right ahead as its their property. I am certainly not going to get upset about it as buying one means they have contributed to the appeal. I'm happy about that, the money is in the coffers so go right ahead and do what you want with it, it's yours. Memorials however are a different matter like you say.

Having read up more about the white poppy, you know what I am not bothered that much, each to their own I say. As long as people are respectful to each others beliefs despite their own personal opionions, however strong, then that's the most important thing. I was having a drink with an old mucker last night and he made a very important point he seems to come out with about this time every year, "Remember the dead but cherish the living", I could not have said it better.

And I am not fussy about cloud type, I dont punch many these days !!

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## Gronnuck

Wristbands, shopping bags, tee-shirts and everything else in support of the Poppy Appeal is available here

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## Moira

> Oh no another one that wants to rant and goes to the far end of a fart and try to say its ok for us british to put up with this crap our rememberance day means a lot to all the eldery so come on be proud if your british and get yer poppy on .


What a rude reply Doreen.  I wasn't ranting, you are.

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## Moira

> What a carry on over poppys. I told you poppys were trouble......


The poppies are fine, they are no trouble.

It's the folk......  ::

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## Doreen

> What a rude reply Doreen.  I wasn't ranting, you are.


No you were the one that wanted proof of what i said and idid not say it was true i just said i believe that certain shops did not want there employees to wear poppies or go home sorry for being rude but please yourself if thats what you think.

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## Moira

Apology accepted.  Thank you Doreen.

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## RecQuery

Robert Fisk: Do those who flaunt the poppy on their lapels know that they mock the war dead? (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...d-6257416.html)

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## Cloud Puncher

> Robert Fisk: Do those who flaunt the poppy on their lapels know that they mock the war dead? (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...d-6257416.html)


I understand you dont like the Poppy, Remembrance and the Military. Fair enough.

But before posting that link did you research the incident where Fisk decided to enter an area of Afghanistan where he was told not to go ??, it resulted in him having to be rescued and cost the lives of an assistant with him and a soldier involved in the rescue operation. Maybe someone who has personally caused the total of war dead to rise by one should think before claiming that those who wear a symbol remembering the man whose death HE caused are mocking him. Robert Fisk is a good journalist in many areas but this is not worth reading.

To be honest people bitching about the poppy, the wearing or not wearing of it etc etc need to move on.

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## bekisman

> Robert Fisk: Do those who flaunt the poppy on their lapels know that they mock the war dead? (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...d-6257416.html)


If you are so disgusted and anti-remembrance, with this [dislike] of those who wear the Poppy, why the hell post on this Thread?

Your earlier postings tell us that only educated people can vote, gives the indication of your own psyche, so go on then, what is it you despise so much about the 'fawning' of British troops - OK ask a squaddie and he'll laugh at the suggestion he's a 'hero'. The wearing of our poppy, may well not follow the original idea, but 'the' thought is still there..

I do think it does you no credit to mock those who do appreciate those who have died for us - my Granddad in 1917 - for instance.

For you, a person who self-admits is highly educated and intelligent mght well allow us to 'remember', without your mealy mouthed insults...

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## Gronnuck

> Robert Fisk: Do those who flaunt the poppy on their lapels know that they mock the war dead? (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...d-6257416.html)


In answer to Robert Fisks question; no I dont think they know they mock the war dead.  But I can empathise with his point.  Put simply, the politicians of the day and the inept military leadership sacrificed millions of lives to score political points.  The countrys citizen army was coerced (white feather and all that) and conscripted to do their bidding in the name of patriotism fuelled by political propaganda.  At the end of the first war, those same political leaders immediately launched the second war against Germany with the Treaty of Versailles.
We can debate the political trajectory of these events endlessly but I suggest we have an obligation, a duty, to hold to account our political and military leaders for any future military adventures.
While we wear our poppies and remember our fallen we have to be prepared to hold our administration to account.

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## Gronnuck

> If you are so disgusted and anti-remembrance, with this hatred of those who wear the Poppy, why the hell post on this Thread?
> 
> Your earlier postings tell us that only educated people can vote, gives the indication of your own psyche, so go on then, what is it you despise so much about the 'fawning' of British troops - OK ask a squaddie and he'll laugh at the suggestion he's a 'hero'. The wearing of our poppy, may well not follow the original idea, but 'the' thought is still there..
> 
> I do think it does you no credit to mock those who do appreciate those who have died for us - my Granddad in 1917 - for instance.
> 
> For you, a person who self-admits is highly educated and intelligent and who's most likely 'brave' action has been during your academic years, to chase a wasp out of your study, might well allow us to 'remember', without your mealy mouthed insults...



Whoa . . . . . me thinks we might be going a wee bit OTT with this! Theres a world of difference from RecQuerys, I dont like, and your allegation of hatred.
As a time served veteran I recognise some truth in what he has been saying. I dont agree with his assertion that, the poppy has become like those flag pins people in the US wear, a meaningless trinket, a politicised bit of flair. But I recognise that it could become that since the BBC appears to control the launch date, and the media appears to dictate that everyone must wear one.
I agree with his statement that If every soldier is a hero then none are. Thats so true; Britain has been involved in hostilities every year since 1945 yet the issue of heroism has only surfaced in the last decade because of the media. The media never gave a fig about the servicemen killed and injured in Palestine, Malaya, Kenya, Dhofar, etc. etc.
Just as RecQuery said, the word weakens as it's over used. The same has to be said about actions; IMO the two minute silence is so commonly used these days its value had become diminished.
I chuckled at his description of the US masturbatory fawning attitude with regards to the military. IMO this is again the work of the media, theyve got to sell newspapers or boost their ratings.

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## RecQuery

> If you are so disgusted and anti-remembrance, with this hatred of those who wear the Poppy, why the hell post on this Thread?
> 
> Your earlier postings tell us that only educated people can vote, gives the indication of your own psyche, so go on then, what is it you despise so much about the 'fawning' of British troops - OK ask a squaddie and he'll laugh at the suggestion he's a 'hero'. The wearing of our poppy, may well not follow the original idea, but 'the' thought is still there..
> 
> I do think it does you no credit to mock those who do appreciate those who have died for us - my Granddad in 1917 - for instance.
> 
> For you, a person who self-admits is highly educated and intelligent and who's most likely 'brave' action has been during your academic years, to chase a wasp out of your study, might well allow us to 'remember', without your mealy mouthed insults...


I'll just repost what I said earlier:

Your implication is that because I potentially don't agree with you then I must be a cowardly person.

I must comment your omniscience, mind reading ability or deductive  reasoning. Somehow through special powers or some forum posts you have  been able to gain unprecedented insight into my character and  personality(!).

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## Cloud Puncher

> I'll just repost what I said earlier:
> 
> Your implication is that because I potentially don't agree with you then I must be a cowardly person.
> 
> I must comment your omniscience, mind reading ability or deductive reasoning. Somehow through special powers or some forum posts you have been able to gain unprecedented insight into my character and personality(!).


Or you could just state the answer yourself and settle it. Are you ??, would you fight in Her Majesty's Forces to preserve your freedom should it be threatened ??

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## ducati

> Or you could just state the answer yourself and settle it. Are you ??, would you fight in Her Majesty's Forces to preserve your freedom should it be threatened ??


I'll answer that one, ARE YOU CRAZY? That is why I wear a poppy, in admiration and awe of those that do!

 And I disagree about the hero tag. I believe every single man and women who steps on a plane bound for Afghanistan is a hero. There may have been wars in the past when young people did it for the romance and didn't really understand the consequences but not now. Each and every one understands just how 'desolate' war can be.

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## Cloud Puncher

> I'll answer that one, ARE YOU CRAZY? That is why I wear a poppy, in admiration and awe of those that do!
> 
> And I disagree about the hero tag. I believe every single man and women who steps on a plane bound for Afghanistan is a hero. There may have been wars in the past when young people did it for the romance and didn't really understand the consequences but not now. Each and every one understands just how 'desolate' war can be.


I was just curious as to what Recquery would say given past posts, I dont really care though, I just have an inquisitive mind !!

But I get what you mean. I see it a lot these days in the attitude towards charities like H4H, its good to see that the majority of the public do care about their services, more than the politicians ever do.

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## bekisman

> I'll just repost what I said earlier:
> 
> Your implication is that because I potentially don't agree with you then I must be a cowardly person.
> 
> I must comment your omniscience, mind reading ability or deductive reasoning. Somehow through special powers or some forum posts you have been able to gain unprecedented insight into my character and personality(!).


Sorry about that Req, but was on my way out and it was jotted down in haste, have amended post...

But must admit, as a squaddie who served 15 years in Active service regions - and was caught in an explosion in Ireland in 1971, from which I still suffer, (made a little easier by a War Disablement Pension) I get kinda jarred off when shiny arsed dictative folk spout off - mocking the personal feelings of those that wear the poppy.. I don't force anyone to wear a poppy, and I don't denigrate anyone who doesn't want too - it's a private thing.. 

I don't give a toss as to the right or wrong 'way' to wear the emblem, the media can spout what rubbish they like, if anyone is gullible or stupid enough to follow that; so be it.

I have/had three sons and a daughter-in law in the forces; having carried out tours in Afghan, Iraq, Bosnia, Sierra Leone etc two of which are still serving, I still worry about them. My Sergeant daughter-in-law will be going to Afghan, it's a dangerous place, but I am immensely proud of her and my own kids who have served well in Active service regions. They all wear the poppy - not for jingoistic reasons, but to remember their fallen friends (and there are quite a few).. 

You intimate you agree with Robert Fisk: _'Do those who flaunt the poppy on their lapels know that they mock the war dead'?_ You are missing the whole point and I really do believe you will never fully understand why 'we' wear the poppy.. 

It seems to amuse you (your quote);_ US masturbatory fawning attitude with regards to the military._ hmm, our former colonials are different. I have served within their units, but do not mock them. It is their way. 
It does beg the question as has been mentioned on these threads; why are you so 'anti-military'?

Anyway enough burble, but before I go, even your own 'hero' surprises me:
_"The Wikileaks founder Julian Assange, has lost his high court appeal against extradition to Sweden to face rape allegations. Assange, who was wearing a navy blue suit, pale blue tie and a Remembrance Day poppy remains on bail pending a decision on a further appeal"_

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## secrets in symmetry

> Robert Fisk: Do those who flaunt the poppy on their lapels know that they mock the war dead? (http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...d-6257416.html)


I've never understood the Fisk phenomenon - I can usually find several blatant untruths in everything he writes.

Fisk confuses established facts with  his own hot air so much that he'd probably burst if you stuck a poppy in him.  ::

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## RecQuery

> Or you could just state the answer yourself and settle it. Are you ??, would you fight in Her Majesty's Forces to preserve your freedom should it be threatened ??


Yeah, if I had to/if they'd accept me. Though none of the recent conflicts have threatened our freedom and I'd still criticise people like Douglas Haig presuming I was still alive when it was over.

*EDIT:* To clarify I have no problem with veterans charities and organisations, rank and file, NCOs, mid-level officers, I'm sure most of the senior officers are good people also. It's the politicisation I have a problem with and the rampant patriotism, it's the if-you-don't-support-us-you-hate-this-country stuff I dislike. I also think that veterans should be less supported by the people and charities and more by the government, the government uses these charities to get out of providing sufficient support themselves. It's governments pretending they're using the armed forces to fight for freedom.

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## Cloud Puncher

> Yeah, if I had to/if they'd accept me. Though none of the recent conflicts have threatened our freedom and I'd still criticise people like Douglas Haig presuming I was still alive when it was over.
> 
> *EDIT:* To clarify I have no problem with veterans charities and organisations, rank and file, NCOs, mid-level officers, I'm sure most of the senior officers are good people also. It's the politicisation I have a problem with and the rampant patriotism, it's the if-you-don't-support-us-you-hate-this-country stuff I dislike. I also think that veterans should be less supported by the people and charities and more by the government, the government uses these charities to get out of providing sufficient support themselves. It's governments pretending they're using the armed forces to fight for freedom.


Nice one. And I totally agree with your edit there completely. H4H, Blesma etc etc do great work but like you say they should not have to.

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## golach

I wear my poppy with pride, it is the smallest gesture of support for our fallen heroes and those still fighting for our country.

And I could not give a damn what the mealie mouthed, lily livered, few on the Org think. Thank goodness that they are in the minority. I stood with a few hundred self minded Veterans and civilians yesterday at the dedication of the Garden of Rememberance in Edinburgh

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## Gronnuck

> I wear my poppy with pride, it is the smallest gesture of support for our fallen heroes and those still fighting for our country.


I do too, if I can get it to stay pinned to my jacket!




> And I could not give a damn what the mealie mouthed, lily livered, few on the Org think. Thank goodness that they are in the minority. I stood with a few hundred self minded Veterans and civilians yesterday at the dedication of the Garden of Rememberance in Edinburgh


I shall repeat my earlier comment, "golach your attitude exemplifies everything that is wrong with the Poppy Appeal. You have hijacked what was supposed to be a simple act of remembrance and turned it into a political cosh with which to beat everyone who exercises their freedom to think and act differently". You also display a great deal of bitterness.
If you read through the all the posts carefully you will see that most people's view is that they support the Poppy appeal but they don't fall for the media hype and the politicians' rhetoric. I have to remind you that it was media hype and political rhetoric that led to the First World War in the first place. While we remember our fallen we must not forget to hold our leaders to account.

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## golach

> I shall repeat my earlier comment, "golach your attitude exemplifies everything that is wrong with the Poppy Appeal. You have hijacked what was supposed to be a simple act of remembrance and turned it into a political cosh with which to beat everyone who exercises their freedom to think and act differently". You also display a great deal of bitterness.


Gronnuck, I do not give a tinkers curse, what you think of my posts.

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## Gronnuck

> Gronnuck, I do not give a tinkers curse, what you think of my posts.


. . . . . and I respect your right to do so.

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## pat

RecQuery

If succeeding governments did not break the Coventant with British Forces there would be no requirement for any of the forces charities. 
The charities have been set up - due to the lack of care and help being supplied by succeeding governments - which the Covenant states should/will be provided for all the British service personnel.
Service personnel will be provided with suitable equipment - speak to many service personnel and you will discover they are not issued with adequate equipment but they are/were not allowed to speak out about the situation as this contravenes the Official Secrets Act.
Many of the Coroners Inquests have also agreed in their reports on many of the deaths of service personnel of the inadequate/shortage of various equipments. 
We the public will pay for it by donation as in Charities fundraising or a higher tax paid to the government to fund this shortfall.

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## secrets in symmetry

> I wear my poppy with pride, it is the smallest gesture of support for our fallen heroes and those still fighting for our country.
> 
> And I could not give a damn what the mealie mouthed, lily livered, few on the Org think. Thank goodness that they are in the minority. I stood with a few hundred self minded Veterans and civilians yesterday at the dedication of the Garden of Rememberance in Edinburgh


RecQuery may be many things, but mealy mouthed he is not. He always states his opinions with clarity - in my opinion.  ::

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## RecQuery

> RecQuery may be many things, but mealy mouthed he is not. He always states his opinions with clarity - in my opinion.


Yeah, that phrase means what he thinks it means, so I've just ignored it.

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## The Pepsi Challenge

On this day of remembrance, let us not forget the countless millions of innocent civilians - men, women and children - who lost their lives in armed conflicts between nations, ideologies and religions, and continue to do so to this day... remember them also.

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## benji

***Subject Change***

for those of you thinking of joining the org please read the following posts on this thread:

7
29
36


As you can see the tone and language of these posts does make you think twice or three times about contributing to the "debate". No wonder each time I dip my toe in to the "org" I run away in embarassment at what some people feel that is their "right" to type. And for these reasons I so often say "Am out" ( (c) Duncan Bannatyne) - note that some of the following posts will suggest that I dont have to read other peoples rants. True - would just be nice that I feel I could contribute to the discussion once in a awhile without being torn apart.

The following posts will be messages indicating that some are trying to show us our "ignorance" (#8), "not giving a toss" about others (#10),  about having more "guts" than you (#29), or are "disgusted....&....mealy mouthed" (#36) etc etc etc etc

Its easy to come onto the org and be all big and all knowing...wonder if their families would be as pround to know that their mum/dad/son/daughter acted like this online......

***End of Subject Change***

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## Cloud Puncher

> ***Subject Change***
> 
> for those of you thinking of joining the org please read the following posts on this thread:
> 
> 7
> 29
> 36
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry mate but as a recently joined Orger, who did so because I am thinking of moving home and wanted to get a feel for the place .. so what ??

People will always be emotive on the subject be it one way or the other, like they are about a lot of things. Its the internet, its a bit of fun. I read it and get on with my day.

Oh and no one likes a tell tale do they ?? .. that was a joke .. seriously, please don't tell my mum.

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## secrets in symmetry

> Sorry mate but as a recently joined Orger, who did so because I am thinking of moving home and wanted to get a feel for the place .. so what ??
> 
> People will always be emotive on the subject be it one way or the other, like they are about a lot of things. Its the internet, its a bit of fun. I read it and get on with my day.
> 
> Oh and no one likes a tell tale do they ?? .. that was a joke .. seriously, please don't tell my mum.


Lol! I have just realised who you are in real life! Don't despair, I won't tell anyone.  ::

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