# General > General >  Mediums-spiritualist

## Fran

I see the spiritualist group have an evening in the Francis Street Club this friday starting at 7.30pm with 2 mediums, Is  anyone going. The last one was non stop and very  good, very acurate.

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## The Pepsi Challenge

DerrenBrown.org

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## 3of8

> DerrenBrown.org


Yet another person taken in by the _supposed_ psychologist Derren Brown. How sad

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## The Pepsi Challenge

Ithankyou.

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## floyed

Yes i am going its my first one.

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## linkside

Regarding the times, the doors open at 7:30pm and commences at 8pm. Its in the "Whats on" part of the org.

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## DarkAngel

i LOVE all that sorta meduim and spiritual stuff... 
ive been to a few readings and most of them have been pretty bang on, and she told me things only i would have known!
woz quite amazed..
sceptical... dont knock it beofre ya hev tried it!

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## Metalattakk

> i LOVE all that sorta meduim and spiritual stuff... 
> ive been to a few readings and most of them have been pretty bang on, and she told me things only i would have known!


*sigh...*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect

I tried to stay out of this one folks, really I did...

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## butterfly

> *sigh...*
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect
> 
> I tried to stay out of this one folks, really I did...


 
We know you did Metalattakk! You really must try harder! ::

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## Kevin Milkins

> i LOVE all that sorta meduim and spiritual stuff... 
> ive been to a few readings and most of them have been pretty bang on, and she told me things only i would have known!
> woz quite amazed..
> sceptical... dont knock it beofre ya hev tried it!


 
DarkAngel, you have no idea how famous a saying "dont knock it till you tried it" is in my social circle of old friends.

Many years ago a gang of us (all lads) were compairing notes on sexual conquests and one owned up to having a same sex expierence :: . When the rest of stoped rolling about the floor with laughter he then said ,"dont knock it till you tried it".

The phrase has stuck with us all for all these years and like Mediums, I have still choose to resist.

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## arana negra

Cannae get my heid roon the meduim thing   ::   if they tell you things only you could know what is the point ? you already know it. It is not me for.

A friend of mine used to go and practically lived her life for a while believing what she was told would happen. A lot of it did happen subconsciously she made it happen. Then she saw sense, made her own decisions and her life is much more relaxed and happy.

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## trix

> Yes i am going its my first one.


hope ye hev a guid nite floyedy - cana wait til hear aboot'ed x x

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## Lindsay

HI There,

There is a medium/clairvoyant in the Portlands on Sat 6th June @ 7.30pm if anyones interested, could go for something to eat before hand too.

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## crayola

> DerrenBrown.org


Thanks for the link TPC. Derren Brown is more interesting than I'd thought.

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## The Pepsi Challenge

You're very welcome. 

Am not sure if you can get Channel 4 on demand, but Derren's shows where he crossed America and successfully proved (in my opinion anyway) that mediums are a complete sham are well worth watching. 

So is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xswt8B8-UTM

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## 3of8

> ...but Derren's shows where he crossed America and successfully proved (in my opinion anyway) that mediums are a complete sham....


Derren Brown isn't all he's cracked up to be. A reporter has challenged Brown to read his childhood thoughts and to replicate a drawing he has made. If he can, the reporter will gladly donate £1000 to charity. Guess what? Brown can't do it!

Full article here: http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html

It was published in the Daily Telegraph 5th June 2003. 6 years ago.

So who's really the sham?

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## The Pepsi Challenge

Think I'll let Metalattakk tear this one apart.

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## Metalattakk

> Think I'll let Metalattakk tear this one apart.


Cheers Pepsi, and here's me trying to keep out of trouble...  :Wink: 




> Derren Brown isn't all he's cracked up to be. A reporter has challenged Brown to read his childhood thoughts and to replicate a drawing he has made. If he can, the reporter will gladly donate £1000 to charity. Guess what? Brown can't do it!
> 
> Full article here: http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html
> 
> It was published in the Daily Telegraph 5th June 2003. 6 years ago.
> 
> So who's really the sham?


It doesn't make a difference whether Brown is a psychologist or a magician, he still manages to knock the charlatan 'psychic/medium' business into a cocked-hat.

But then, why not deflect the argument by trying to bad-mouth the authenticity of the detractor, eh?

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## crayola

I don't see what Simon Singh's problem with Derren Brown is. Brown's website says....



> Derren Brown is a unique force in the world of illusion - he can seemingly predict and control human behaviour.
> 
>  He doesn't claim to be a mind-reader, instead he describes his craft as a mixture of magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship.
> 
>  Whatever you choose to call it, his unparalleled performances amaze and unsettle all those who watch him. This is a powerful and provocative form of entertainment, unlikely to be imitated for a long while.


Brown doesn't claim to be a real mind reader.  ::

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## TBH

> Derren Brown isn't all he's cracked up to be. A reporter has challenged Brown to read his childhood thoughts and to replicate a drawing he has made. If he can, the reporter will gladly donate £1000 to charity. Guess what? Brown can't do it!
> 
> Full article here: http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html
> 
> It was published in the Daily Telegraph 5th June 2003. 6 years ago.
> 
> So who's really the sham?


With Derren Brown you get what it says on the tin, Magician, Mentalist. No sham, just trickery, Unlike those that make their living through preying on the vulnerabilities of the bereaved.

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## kanenka

Hi there,

is anyone planning going to the clairvoyant natalie simpson at the portlands on sat nite!!
i went before and she was really good!!
think i will make a trip and go this time 2!!
x

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## TBH

> I don't see what Simon Singh's problem with Derren Brown is. Singh's website says....
> Brown doesn't claim to be a real mind reader.


Through body language he can tell a lot about what is going on in the mind of an individual.

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## Nvidi4

IMO the people that try to "put down" mediums and psychics have something to hide and are scared they are found out!  :: 

As far as Derren Brown is concerned if people are open and receptive he can make them do anything, its called mind control!  ::  I know of a few like that who can get others to do almost anything until you wise up as to what they are up to.....its called taking control and not letting yourself be controlled by outside influences!  ::

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## crayola

> You're very welcome. 
> 
> Am not sure if you can get Channel 4 on demand, but Derren's shows where he crossed America and successfully proved (in my opinion anyway) that mediums are a complete sham are well worth watching. 
> 
> So is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xswt8B8-UTM


Having watched that clip and its followup I _really_ don't see what Simon Singh's problem is.  :: 

Richard Dawkins on the other hand sends chills down my spine when I sense he's about to ask a difficult question.  ::

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## TBH

> IMO the people that try to "put down" mediums and psychics have something to hide and are scared they are found out! 
> 
> As far as Derren Brown is concerned if people are open and receptive he can make them do anything, its called mind control!  I know of a few like that who can get others to do almost anything until you wise up as to what they are up to.....its called taking control and not letting yourself be controlled by outside influences!


Mediums and psychics are fake until there is irrefutable proof to the contrary.

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## Nvidi4

That's your opinion TBH.........there's nothing fake about them especially the true ones, don't know about all the self professed money making ones though......like everything else in this world there is good and there's bad, positive and negative.......your own instincts will tell you if you use them instead of using your head all the time!  ::

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## TBH

> That's your opinion TBH.........there's nothing fake about them especially the true ones, don't know about all the self professed money making ones though......like everything else in this world there is good and there's bad, positive and negative.......your own instincts will tell you if you use them instead of using your head all the time!


Especially the true ones. ::   Even Stokes was a fake and she was one of the "true ones".

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## Nvidi4

If you say so!  ::   I wouldn't know!  ::

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## cuddlepop

Hope you find what your looking for Fran and to the others that mock and ridicule 
every heard of the saying "each to their own". ::

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## katarina

> Especially the true ones.  Even Stokes was a fake and she was one of the "true ones".


What proof have you got that stokes was a fake?

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## katarina

do any of these visiting mediums do private readings?

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## TBH

> What proof have you got that stokes was a fake?


I have accrued information over the years which has convinced me that she was a fake. Whether you would accept that same information is your perogative but I reserve the right to point people to the methods used by these people in manipulating them into paying for a service that has no basis in fact.

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## DarkAngel

> DarkAngel, you have no idea how famous a saying "dont knock it till you tried it" is in my social circle of old friends.
> 
> Many years ago a gang of us (all lads) were compairing notes on sexual conquests and one owned up to having a same sex expierence. When the rest of stoped rolling about the floor with laughter he then said ,"dont knock it till you tried it".
> 
> The phrase has stuck with us all for all these years and like Mediums, I have still choose to resist.


 
That is Slightly different than sitting gettin a reading i think  ::  ::

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## Nvidi4

> I have accrued information over the years which has convinced me that she was a fake. Whether you would accept that same information is your perogative but I reserve the right to point people to the methods used by these people in manipulating them into paying for a service that has no basis in fact.


She is not a fake  ::  I know of someone who talks to her a lot on the other side and she said to say to you TBH just think of her and she'll be there by your side to prove you wrong!  ::  She may even visit you in the night when your sleeping and you wouldnt even know!  ::

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## TBH

> She is not a fake  I know of someone who talks to her a lot on the other side and she said to say to you TBH just think of her and she'll be there by your side to prove you wrong!  She may even visit you in the night when your sleeping and you wouldnt even know!


Tell Doris to keep the noise down when she visits or I'll have to get the Dyson out.

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## Missy Wick

Hi
Im a bit confused cos the last post said something about the saturday night portlands one starting at 1930, but the whats on section says it starts at 1900.
any ideas?

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## robglysen

I used to attend a spiritualist church back in Englandshire sometimes I got a message, they were blob on, nothing earth shattering, but enough to prove to me at least that life went on.

I put a quid in the tray each week.  Cant say I feel ripped off.

Spiritualism is a genuine faith, when we rip up each others beliefs, however esoteric or bazzare, it starts wars.  Can we live and let live.

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## linkside

> Can we live and let live.


I wholeheartedly agree!

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## Nvidi4

> Tell Doris to keep the noise down when she visits or I'll have to get the Dyson out.


She says you don't need to hoover on her account  :: .........she's not fussy like that!  ::

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## scorrie

> Spiritualism is a genuine faith, when we rip up each others beliefs, however esoteric or bazzare, it starts wars.


Ah yes, I remember the infamous Scientist/Medium stooshie in the 70's. Some are still scarred by the shouting, jostling and the bit where a tray of buns got knocked over. It took some skillful microphone handling and throat clearing from the MC before a call of "Ladies, will you PLEASE sit down" restored order and averted further bloodshed.

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## scorrie

> She is not a fake  I know of someone who talks to her a lot on the other side and she said to say to you TBH just think of her and she'll be there by your side to prove you wrong!  She may even visit you in the night when your sleeping and you wouldnt even know!


This extract from a web article disagrees:-

"It was fairly apparent to sceptics however, that Doris Stokes uses a technique known as "cold reading". She would make general statements about a particular person in the audience and at the same time "fish" for information. Her forte, the seeming ability to be able to pick out at random individuals to whom she would pass on messages from their dead loved ones. Leaning heavily on statistical probabilities she would tell an elderly woman that she was a widow, or that a husband and wife had two children, and would cast her net wide making obvious guesses and leaving much open to wide interpretation. The messages would always be of a trite and homely nature and appealed to those recently bereaved.

Typical of the above was Doris Stokes� performance on North East England ITV�s Tyne Tees programme, "Friday Live"on December 21, 1979, in which she started with some anecdotal claims and then began to "receive signals" from the departed.

She declared that a person seated in the studio on her right, was named or associated with a dead person named Taylor (in the Newcastle telephone directory there are fifteen columns of Taylors). "This Taylor" she said, "was associated with someone named Elizabeth, or Liza, or Liz, or perhaps Edith, and had been dead about two years." A viewer telephoned in saying that it must be her husband who had been killed in 1943. Mrs Stokes assured the lady that her husband�s death had been sudden and painless.

Analysed, we have someone not in the audience replying, with no connection to any of the names mentioned by Mrs Stokes, and a death which occurred thirty-six, years before, not two; hardly indicative of an accurate conversation with the deceased. In the rambling discussion and demonstration which followed, she failed to score a single hit.

Much of Mrs Stokes success can be attributed to "plants" in the audience, or to the fact that there are those in the audience with whose background she is familiar. Ian Wilson exposed Doris Stokes as a fraud in his book, The After Death Experience, published in 1987, in which he proves conclusively that she knew those in the audience she called out, or at least knew of them. They had contacted her and in many cases, she had actually sent them tickets for seats in the front rows of her performances. These "plants" were entirely innocent believers, participating unwittingly in the fraud"

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## 3of8

> But then, why not deflect the argument by trying to bad-mouth the authenticity of the detractor, eh?


No argument. A debate. But what about those who bad-mouth psychics?  




> It doesn't make a difference whether Brown is a psychologist or a magician, he still manages to knock the charlatan 'psychic/medium' business into a cocked-hat.


This from Ciaran O'Keeffe, a sceptic:
Cold reading, therefore, relies heavily on cues given by the listener and is simply an alternative explanation for psychic readings. In a private sitting, however, a psychic or medium may provide information about the future, and even past, that the client may not be aware of. The client simply may not provide cues. *In addition, there are circumstances where the reader (psychic or medium) does not have access to the client (e.g. online psychic reading). It is these situations, leaving aside the Barnum Effect, where a psychic is free to speculate, or use their genuine psychic ability, that has us searching for alternative explanations, one of which may just be a paranormal one.*
Read more: http://psychic-abilities.suite101.co...xzz0HVkcXkT4&C
This is a man who, like Derren Brown, makes his money out of being a professional sceptic, yet even he acknowledges that there are times when a psychic medium is spot on. Why can't you? The closed mind effect again?

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## Metalattakk

> This from Ciaran O'Keeffe, a sceptic:Cold reading, therefore, relies heavily on cues given by the listener and is simply an alternative explanation for psychic readings. In a private sitting, however, a psychic or medium may provide information about the future, and even past, that the client may not be aware of. The client simply may not provide cues. *In addition, there are circumstances where the reader (psychic or medium) does not have access to the client (e.g. online psychic reading). It is these situations, leaving aside the Barnum Effect, where a psychic is free to speculate, or use their genuine psychic ability, that has us searching for alternative explanations, one of which may just be a paranormal one.*
> Read more: http://psychic-abilities.suite101.co...xzz0HVkcXkT4&CThis is a man who, like Derren Brown, makes his money out of being a professional sceptic, yet even he acknowledges that there are times when a psychic medium is spot on. Why can't you? The closed mind effect again?


Why would he make that statement while 'leaving aside the Barnum Effect'? How can anyone leave that out of it all?

These so-called 'psychics' use a combination of a variety of techniques (they're not all as vacant as poor ol' Doris, y'know) to arrive at their chosen destination - that crumpled fiver in your hipper.

One question to you:

What makes you want to believe in psychic abilities?

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## Nvidi4

> This extract from a web article disagrees:-
> 
> "It was fairly apparent to sceptics however, that Doris Stokes uses a technique known as "cold reading". She would make general statements about a particular person in the audience and at the same time "fish" for information. Her forte, the seeming ability to be able to pick out at random individuals to whom she would pass on messages from their dead loved ones. Leaning heavily on statistical probabilities she would tell an elderly woman that she was a widow, or that a husband and wife had two children, and would cast her net wide making obvious guesses and leaving much open to wide interpretation. The messages would always be of a trite and homely nature and appealed to those recently bereaved.
> 
> Typical of the above was Doris Stokes� performance on North East England ITV�s Tyne Tees programme, "Friday Live"on December 21, 1979, in which she started with some anecdotal claims and then began to "receive signals" from the departed.
> 
> She declared that a person seated in the studio on her right, was named or associated with a dead person named Taylor (in the Newcastle telephone directory there are fifteen columns of Taylors). "This Taylor" she said, "was associated with someone named Elizabeth, or Liza, or Liz, or perhaps Edith, and had been dead about two years." A viewer telephoned in saying that it must be her husband who had been killed in 1943. Mrs Stokes assured the lady that her husband�s death had been sudden and painless.
> 
> Analysed, we have someone not in the audience replying, with no connection to any of the names mentioned by Mrs Stokes, and a death which occurred thirty-six, years before, not two; hardly indicative of an accurate conversation with the deceased. In the rambling discussion and demonstration which followed, she failed to score a single hit.
> ...


I never said anything about what she was or was not while she was on earth. She was obviously doing what she felt she had to do. I did say that she communicated from the other side with someone I know which is different. Maybe while on earth she was in training for when she crossed over and anyway if she made people feel better then that can't be wrong can it. Quite often Psychics or Mediums will say something about what they are picking up on and the person they are referring to could well be hundreds of miles away and it may be nothing to do with the people around them............what comes through is what comes through it might not always make sense to the people around, but it doesnt mean to say they are wrong or are "cold reading" . As long as it comes from the heart and from Spirit thats all that matters!  ::  Its not all black and white not in this world nor in the spirit world!  ::

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## butterfly

[quote=3of8;557308]No argument. A debate. But what about those who bad-mouth psychics? 


Good point.This happens every time a thread like this is started and often by the same people.Why cant they get it into their heads that they just cant change people's opinions about life after death no more than the believers can change theirs!!!!

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## Kevin Milkins

I was hoping to see a medium one day, but every time I glance in the mirror I just see the same old extra large.  ::

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## Venture

[quote=butterfly;557419]


> No argument. A debate. But what about those who bad-mouth psychics? 
> 
> 
> Good point.This happens every time a thread like this is started and often by the same people.Why cant they get it into their heads that they just cant change people's opinions about life after death no more than the believers can change theirs!!!!


We are all free to believe in whatever we like.  If some feel there is information out there to support what they believe in, whether for or against the subject of the thread, then why should they not post it on here?  It is after all a public forum.

Unfortunately this world is full of people who bad-mouth others. ::

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## Rheghead

> Why cant they get it into their heads that they just cant change people's opinions about life after death no more than the believers can change theirs!!!!


You're probably right there, there is no point in discussing Faith-based subjects like the paranormal and religion because in one camp their opinions are built upon irrational delusion and the other camp's opinions are built upon what the 5 senses can present.

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## Metalattakk

> Good point.This happens every time a thread like this is started and often by the same people.Why cant they get it into their heads that they just cant change people's opinions about life after death no more than the believers can change theirs!!!!


I am well aware that I can't change everyone's beliefs just by presenting lucid, intelligent and reasoned explanations of the practices and methods utilised by these manipulative charlatans.

But surely, you have to concede I have to try.

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## butterfly

> I am well aware that I can't change everyone's beliefs just by presenting lucid, intelligent and reasoned explanations of the practices and methods utilised by these manipulative charlatans.
> 
> But surely, you have to concede I have to try.


Well try if you must Metalattakk but surely you can see it is a losing battle on both sides lol!

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## scorrie

> I never said anything about what she was or was not while she was on earth. She was obviously doing what she felt she had to do. I did say that she communicated from the other side with someone I know which is different. Maybe while on earth she was in training for when she crossed over and anyway if she made people feel better then that can't be wrong can it. Quite often Psychics or Mediums will say something about what they are picking up on and the person they are referring to could well be hundreds of miles away and it may be nothing to do with the people around them............what comes through is what comes through it might not always make sense to the people around, but it doesnt mean to say they are wrong or are "cold reading" . As long as it comes from the heart and from Spirit thats all that matters!  Its not all black and white not in this world nor in the spirit world!


I think most of us have to judge Doris based on the reality of her life. You could claim Hitler is a different, and kind, man now he is on the other side. He too was training for the afterlife and learned a lot from his mistakes. He could be connecting with a wifie who works in a cafe in Dagenham now, and passing on similarly vague messages via his ineffective conduit who is still learning the ropes.

I could sit in a studio and claim:-

"Sorry, nothing coming through for you numpties tonight, this message is for Ima Frodi who lives on the other side of the planet" 

"Ima, if you're listening, Uncle Charlie Tan says:-

 "Ima, always keep a nutmeg grater in your coal bunker, and you will never suffer from piles"

Now Ima, that may not make any sense whatsoever to you, but the message is the message and it proves I'm an authentic Medium."

Sorry Nvidi4, your thinking makes no sense here. All you are saying is that ANYBODY, can say ANYTHING and it means that there is a spirit world, which charlatans can pretend to connect to as training for the afterlife. That is blind, and illogical, faith.

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## Metalattakk

Butterfly, I disagree. It is far from a futile endeavour.

If I can sow the seed of doubt into only one reader, and encourage them to think about the subject and accept that there is evidence out there that contradicts their beliefs - and shows exactly how these charlatans achieve their trickery - then it is entirely worthwhile.

Already I have seen evidence of a shift in attitudes towards this subject on .Org. Maybe the message is getting through ( :Grin: ).

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## Nvidi4

> I think most of us have to judge Doris based on the reality of her life. You could claim Hitler is a different, and kind, man now he is on the other side. He too was training for the afterlife and learned a lot from his mistakes. He could be connecting with a wifie who works in a cafe in Dagenham now, and passing on similarly vague messages via his ineffective conduit who is still learning the ropes.
> 
> I could sit in a studio and claim:-
> 
> "Sorry, nothing coming through for you numpties tonight, this message is for Ima Frodi who lives on the other side of the planet" 
> 
> "Ima, if you're listening, Uncle Charlie Tan says:-
> 
>  "Ima, always keep a nutmeg grater in your coal bunker, and you will never suffer from piles"
> ...


 ::  That's funny! Now you've taken it further than it was intended. I know what I mean but it's hard for me to put it into words.  Loosely speaking I meant the medium may have a message for someone else not necessarily the person to whom he/she is speaking to.......that's what I was meaning I wasn't speaking about Ima Frodi {what a strange name}  oh I get it Im a Fraudy hehe.......and it's not my thinking, that's what I was told to say this morning.......could've been hitler that was with me at the time when I typed it out .......come to think of it I did "see" him somewhere in my mind wasn't quite sure what to make of it!  ::  So if it was him then what you have just stated is what hitler was and not me........he was blind, illogical with no faith whatsoever. I can see and I have faith.....illogical maybe! Being logical spoils it all as not everything has a logical explanation and that's the problem you should just open to it instead of trying to seek proof as you will never find it. The ones who know can't prove it to anyone only they themselves know and as for the others either they believe or they don't but yes you do have to be careful and watch out for the charlatans and you shouldn't make judgement on poor Doris she was and still is a lovely lady she had her faults the same as the rest of us but "cold reading" I dont think so!  :Grin:

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## scorrie

> Loosely speaking I meant the medium may have a message for someone else not necessarily the person to whom he/she is speaking to.......


So, someone pays money to talk to a medium and then has to accept that any message coming through may be for someone else, someone totally unknown to the person having the "reading"

A laughable concept.

Hold on, there's a message coming through from Robin Hood on the other side, it simply says:-

"Bow"

Wait a minute, there's one now from Linus Yale Jnr, who is with Robin at the moment, it simply says:-

"Locks"

Mysterious eh, I wonder what it can mean?  :Wink:

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## honey

> Yet another person taken in by the _supposed_ psychologist Derren Brown. How sad


I am a HUGE Derren Brown fan... and i actually do beleive in the supernatural as well...

Derren doesnt claim to be anything hes not, actually, the opposite. He starts all of his shows telling us its a mixtire of psychology, trickery and showmanship...

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## honey

> You're very welcome. 
> 
> Am not sure if you can get Channel 4 on demand, but Derren's shows where he crossed America and successfully proved (in my opinion anyway) that mediums are a complete sham are well worth watching. 
> 
> So is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xswt8B8-UTM


ahh, but he will openly state he exposed THOSE shams. He is totally open to the fact there may be "real" mediums etc... hes just waiting for more substantial proof.

Hes an interesting character, he was very religious when he was younger and beleived in a lot of the "shams" he now exposes!

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## The Pepsi Challenge

The chief reason, I suspect, people believe in these charlatans is, purely, because, they really, really want to believe that there is a spirit world; that there's 'something else'; that 'it' is not all for nothing. Some will believe in it because they wish to cushion the blow of a close friend/ relative's passing - they're looking for comfort, relief, forgiveness (?) and will, with whatever 'evidence' is presented before them, try to... make it fit. 

Am bias, because I know both Derren and Drew McAdam, himself a collaborator of Derren's and a mindplay expert himself, and listening to them explain things - as Metalattakk rightly says - by presenting "lucid, intelligent and reasoned explanations of the practices and methods utilised by these manipulative charlatans."

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## The Pepsi Challenge

> ahh, but he will openly state he exposed THOSE shams. He is totally open to the fact there may be "real" mediums etc... hes just waiting for more substantial proof.
> 
> Hes an interesting character, he was very religious when he was younger and beleived in a lot of the "shams" he now exposes!


I asked both Derren and Drew McAdam about psychics and they, like me, believe that yes, there are those who can present things in a manner that is almost virtually impossible to explain. However, those 'psychics' they speak of count for about 0.001% of all supposed psychics currently taking your money as you tailor what they suggest back to you into your own life's meaning. Such services, in my opinion, is wrong and immoral; however, I don't deny people the right to spend their money and be entertained by those who believe themselves to be psychic. I just think they're suckers.

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## katarina

> I have accrued information over the years which has convinced me that she was a fake. Whether you would accept that same information is your perogative but I reserve the right to point people to the methods used by these people in manipulating them into paying for a service that has no basis in fact.


could you post a link?  I read her book but i always like to see both sides so to speak.

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## katarina

> Butterfly, I disagree. It is far from a futile endeavour.
> 
> If I can sow the seed of doubt into only one reader, and encourage them to think about the subject and accept that there is evidence out there that contradicts their beliefs - and shows exactly how these charlatans achieve their trickery - then it is entirely worthwhile.
> 
> Already I have seen evidence of a shift in attitudes towards this subject on .Org. Maybe the message is getting through ().


how does it feel to be so RIGHT all the time?

----------


## Nvidi4

> So, someone pays money to talk to a medium and then has to accept that any message coming through may be for someone else, someone totally unknown to the person having the "reading"
> 
> A laughable concept.
> 
> Hold on, there's a message coming through from Robin Hood on the other side, it simply says:-
> 
> "Bow"
> 
> Wait a minute, there's one now from Linus Yale Jnr, who is with Robin at the moment, it simply says:-
> ...


Hehehehehe Aye right!  ::  It has been known that the person meeting the psychic/medium is there for someone else.......put it this way scorrie if your meant to go see one you will its not all about handing money over and getting wrong messages. Something says to you one day maybe your inner self "I want to go to that meeting" so you go you dont question and analize it all you let yourself be guided. It's not for everyone and I'm sure the ones that go are meant to go just as the ones that don't are not meant to..........god your tying me in knots now!  Personally I won't go to psychics or mediums who roll into town for an evening of clairvoyance or whatever you want to call it, maybe I don't need to...my instincts tell me stay away from it but that's just me. But I daresay there are others who have the urge to go for one reason or another. You let yourself be guided to whoever whenever.  If you use your own mind/instincts as to whether they are genuine or not you should be able to tell, but there's a lot out there who are "hooked" on all things to do with psychics/mediums and just can't stay away from these "meetings" and phoning up the psychic hotlines to get some guidance when they know the answers themselves already and don't need a psychic/medium to tell them what to do and psychic/ mediums should not be telling them what to do or telling them what the future holds for them, it's up to the individual to create there own future ........my advice would be don't give your power to them. Live your life and empower yourself that's if your strong enough to do that without having to need guidance from a psychic/medium. They have their place though as do all things but me I wouldn't part with a penny unless I was absolutely sure within myself that I was doing the right thing for me.......it's a case of if in doubt leave out!       But like everything else it's a job for some and if there's a need for them well fine and you would expect to pay a plumber or a gardener so why not a psychic if that is their job .......they need money to live also........and as for Robin Hood and whats it's name well Robin says he didn't take money from the rich and give it to the poor he was just trying to create a bit of balance thats all!  ::

----------


## scorrie

> Hehehehehe Aye right!  It has been known that the person meeting the psychic/medium is there for someone else.......put it this way scorrie if your meant to go see one you will its not all about handing money over and getting wrong messages. Something says to you one day maybe your inner self "I want to go to that meeting" so you go you dont question and analize it all you let yourself be guided. It's not for everyone and I'm sure the ones that go are meant to go just as the ones that don't are not meant to..........god your tying me in knots now!  Personally I won't go to psychics or mediums who roll into town for an evening of clairvoyance or whatever you want to call it, maybe I don't need to...my instincts tell me stay away from it but that's just me. But I daresay there are others who have the urge to go for one reason or another. You let yourself be guided to whoever whenever.  If you use your own mind/instincts as to whether they are genuine or not you should be able to tell, but there's a lot out there who are "hooked" on all things to do with psychics/mediums and just can't stay away from these "meetings" and phoning up the psychic hotlines to get some guidance when they know the answers themselves already and don't need a psychic/medium to tell them what to do and psychic/ mediums should not be telling them what to do or telling them what the future holds for them, it's up to the individual to create there own future ........my advice would be don't give your power to them. Live your life and empower yourself that's if your strong enough to do that without having to need guidance from a psychic/medium. They have their place though as do all things but me I wouldn't part with a penny unless I was absolutely sure within myself that I was doing the right thing for me.......it's a case of if in doubt leave out!       But like everything else it's a job for some and if there's a need for them well fine and you would expect to pay a plumber or a gardener so why not a psychic if that is their job .......they need money to live also........and as for Robin Hood and whats it's name well Robin says he didn't take money from the rich and give it to the poor he was just trying to create a bit of balance thats all!


I have no doubt you are right about desire (rather than NEED) for Psychics/Mediums being prevalent. People are not forced to go to such meetings, as you say, it's a personal choice.

In my experience, many people are going because they have lost someone dear to them, often fairly recently. That leaves them vulnerable, and gullible, in my opinion. If we are then to believe that vague and inaccurate readings, referring to no one you know, are acceptable demonstrations of Psychic ability, then we have ideal conditions for widespread fleecing by unscrupulous "Mediums" with no ability other than the skills required to dupe their customers. The process needs to be demonstrably effective via meaningful results, under independent scrutiny, to have any credibility as far as I am concerned.

----------


## Nvidi4

I've met a lot of psychics and mediums {not a penny was parted with}and believe me there are a lot who tell you things they shouldn't especially if you are not ready to deal with such things..as for helping the bereaved well that depends also on what they tell you as long as it's all positive and your not left wondering or worrying about something that you weren't before. If you leave feeling better and uplifted then it's a good reading....maybe a one off sort of thing, but not running to every Tom Dick or Harry who comes to town! Thats only my opinion though!  ::  In saying that I do believe in the "supernatural" as its all perfectly natural nothing spooky or untoward about it ........and there are a lot of good ones out there who deserve to be paid for their work for helping spirit.........and the ones who want proof of all of this well they'll have to want  ::  you either believe or you don't its that simple!  ::

----------


## scorrie

> If you leave feeling better and uplifted then it's a good reading....


That's why they will tell you, "Don't worry, he didn't suffer and he's having the time of his life with Elvis and George Best on the other side"

"Sorry, but he died screaming and is suffering eternal Hell as we speak" just ain't gonna happen!!

I am afraid that the definitions of Supernatural are similar to this:-

su·per·nat·u·ral  (spr-nchr-l)
adj.
1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces.
3. Of or relating to a deity.
4. Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous.
5. Of or relating to the miraculous.

You can hardly then say it is "Perfectly Natural"

----------


## daviddd

I won't try to change the closed minds on here - but although I've never been to a medium I've seen and read enough to know that psychic ability exists for some people, even if there are also some fakes around. Meditation has revealed to me that humans are probably spiritually capable of much more than reading each others' minds. For some, many? people this is a revolting idea that their ego rejects out of hand in a bid to preserve its false self. I don't offer any proof, and won't get drawn into a pointless argument here, but some things I just know from personal experiences that words can't describe. Spirituality is a massive subject, and an utterly fascinating one, that has preoccupied man for millenia and will continue to do so.

----------


## TBH

> could you post a link?  I read her book but i always like to see both sides so to speak.


Like I said, it is just information I have accrued over the years even before the prevalence of the internet.
All I can offer you are the methods that "mediums" use to achieve their aims which you can use to determine, in your own opinion, whether someone is fraudulent or genuine.

----------


## Moira

> HI There, 
> There is a medium/clairvoyant in the Portlands on Sat 6th June @ 7.30pm if anyones interested, could go for something to eat before hand too.


Thanks for the invite Lindsay.  Can we meet in the Bayview Hotel in Lybster for something to eat beforehand?  I take it you are paying - ta very much.  :Smile:

----------


## katarina

> Like I said, it is just information I have accrued over the years even before the prevalence of the internet.
> All I can offer you are the methods that "mediums" use to achieve their aims which you can use to determine, in your own opinion, whether someone is fraudulent or genuine.


No proof then?  Just an assumption.  I've never seen Doris stokes in action so I can't comment on her from experience, but I have learnt to be wary of what is written as it reflects the authors views rather than the truth.  And I do know enough about different methods of fraudulent readings to be very aware.
i must say though, from being a sceptic, I have had my eyes opened a couple of times.  And now I believe there are genuine psychics out there.
I, at least, am willing to investigate for myself, rather than blindly believe or not.  this is my conclusion.

----------


## TBH

> I've never seen Doris stokes in action so I can't comment on that.  However I do know enough about different methods of fraudulent readings to be very aware.
> i must say though, from being a skeptic, I have had my eyes opened a couple of times.  And now I believe there are genuine psychics out there.


I am sure there are many videos available of Doris stokes in action, youtube or Metacafe would be a good start.  
I have seen a great many of her shows and she came across as an extremely nice Lady, very entertaining and with a great sense of humour.  The downside is when you are aware of and can identify the techniques she was using.  Saying that, 
I'd love to believe in the after-life as I am sure may skeptics would, but, in over 70 years of scientific study there is no documented proof of anyone possessing any psychic abilities.

----------


## Metalattakk

> how does it feel to be so RIGHT all the time?


Just dandy, katarina. Maybe you should come over here and stand next to me, in the light, and find out for yourself.  :Wink:

----------


## TBH

> No proof then?  Just an assumption.  I've never seen Doris stokes in action so I can't comment on her from experience, but I have learnt to be wary of what is written as it reflects the authors views rather than the truth.  And I do know enough about different methods of fraudulent readings to be very aware.
> i must say though, from being a sceptic, I have had my eyes opened a couple of times.  And now I believe there are genuine psychics out there.
> I, at least, am willing to investigate for myself, rather than blindly believe or not.  this is my conclusion.


Why did you feel the need to edit your post, adding that wee bitty at the start?  I have been honest with you and you have tried to use it against me, naughty, katarina. ::

----------


## Nvidi4

> That's why they will tell you, "Don't worry, he didn't suffer and he's having the time of his life with Elvis and George Best on the other side"
> 
> So what's wrong with that then knowing that your loved ones having a ball on the other side! 
> 
> "Sorry, but he died screaming and is suffering eternal Hell as we speak" just ain't gonna happen!!
> 
> A good psychic/medium wouldn't say anything like that! 
> 
> I am afraid that the definitions of Supernatural are similar to this:-
> ...


Well I'd imagne that man made up the word supernatural and also the definition just so's to keep us all in the dark if you get my drift!  :Wink:  When the reality is it is all "Perfectly Natural"  :Wink:  You're missing all the magic!  ::

----------


## Fran

well I for one was very dissapointed i couldn't make it to the Francis Street Club tonight. Does anyone know how it went?

----------


## The Pepsi Challenge

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/arts...gma.5340988.jp

 :Smile:

----------


## floyed

> well I for one was very dissapointed i couldn't make it to the Francis Street Club tonight. Does anyone know how it went?



Yes i was at it im glad i went and i enjoyed it.  I have come away more towards believing that there is a way, for people to let you no they are alright when they are on the otherside. 

Its not for everyone, but personelly its done me the world of good going.

----------


## katarina

> Just dandy, katarina. Maybe you should come over here and stand next to me, in the light, and find out for yourself.


You'd like that - but whats in it for me?

----------


## honey

> I asked both Derren and Drew McAdam about psychics and they, like me, believe that yes, there are those who can present things in a manner that is almost virtually impossible to explain. However, those 'psychics' they speak of count for about 0.001% of all supposed psychics currently taking your money as you tailor what they suggest back to you into your own life's meaning.


I am soooo jealous!! Im not familiar with Drew McAdam, but i love Derren.

I went to one of his shows in Glasgow and he is simply amazing. Because its Derren, your head is telling you there has got to be a logical explanation, but i just cant get my head round it.

I used to be a total (i'll say it - gullible) beleiver when it came to the supernatural. Being a fan of Derren had made me more sceptical (his Seance show in particular) , but i do still beleive. Im just more aware there are people out there who are frauds and can make a lot of money from it. But just because people can show up the complete shams, i dont beleive that that proves that anything supernatural simply doesnt exist.

----------


## floyed

> But just because people can show up the complete shams, i dont beleive that that proves that anything supernatural simply doesnt exist.



Im with you on that, im sure there are plenty of people out there that are con-artists but i am sure they arnt all like that!

----------


## katarina

could be Derren is psychic and just doesn't realise it yet?  And isn't mind reading or mind controlling pretty paranormal on its own?

----------


## 3of8

> Why would he make that statement while 'leaving aside the Barnum Effect'? How can anyone leave that out of it all?
> 
> These so-called 'psychics' use a combination of a variety of techniques (they're not all as vacant as poor ol' Doris, y'know) to arrive at their chosen destination - that crumpled fiver in your hipper.
> 
> One question to you:
> 
> What makes you want to believe in psychic abilities?


First of all....

You well know what the Barnum Effect is. Generalisations made to a number of people who all agree with what is said. I would imagine that Mr O'Keeffe has seen email readings made in which there are no generalisations but are specific facts. He suggests, as he's a psychologist, that an alternative explanation to such accuracy may be paranormal. 

If you have ever seen 'Most Haunted' you will see Ciaran O'Keeffe in his role as a sceptic and he often has a good reason for some of the so called ghostly happenings. He has however on one or two occasions admitted that there may be a paranormal reason. But there is no proof.

Secondly....

In answer to your question, the fact that I seek knowledge means that I would like to believe in psychic abilities. There are a number of reasons, too many to list here, for my reasons, but I go about this in an open-minded manner. 

In much the same way, I believe that there is a God. However, I don't believe Him to exclusive to one religion. For all I know, as a Christian, when I die I may have to pass through the Pearly Gates and proclaim Allah Akbar! 

How many Catholic priests have died and found that actually they didn't have to be celibate? They've got closed minds haven't they? Cos the Pope says so.

I refuse to have a closed mind as there is no equal proof either way that there is no way of connecting with people who have died. For example, I cannot prove either way, nor take it as read, that Jesus did the miracles he was supposed to have done. 

For example...

The feeding of the 5,000? Followers took their own food pretty much the way people now would take a picnic that's how they were all fed from those loaves and fish. And 2,000 years ago there were no Subways or McDonald's to feed the heaving throngs. Water into wine at the wedding feast? It's said, (but who am I to disagree?) that Jesus simply had the jugs refilled with water to wash out the lees of the wine and that which had been absorbed into the walls of the jugs, thereby creating more wine. Raising Lazarus from the dead? A coma maybe. Had he really been dead for the 4 days proclaimed his body would have been a bloated, stinking mess in the heat of the middle east. 

I realise that what I'm saying about Jesus is exactly the way that you believe psychic mediums are. But the difference is I'm open-minded. He may have performed those miracles. I won't know till he tells me to my face.

However, I do agree that there are charlatans who are out for an easy buck. 

Personally I have experienced as seeing a world famous psychic/medium speak to a woman in an audience of 2,000 sitting next to me who came from the same place as me and speak of the death of her young son a few years ago. This is someone from a totally different country. He only wants yes or no answers to his questions and hers were all "yes". He was specific, not general. About how the boy died, his age, where he died, the cause behind it. He wasn't a local man who would know some of the audience or had had a quick shuffle through recent bad news and was therefore ready to 'pick up' on someone supposedly standing close by them from the other side. It was an eye-opener. I've also had a psychic medium give me a series of 4 letters and 3 numbers that she could see. She'd written them on a piece of paper shortly before seeing her. A slight rearrangement of them gave me the registration number of the first car I had some 20 years ago. Explain that away as Barnum Effect or cold reading. 

Equally, I have fairly wet myself laughing at the antics of Derek Acorah sitting in a Museum in Egypt and 'picking up' on the spirits of long dead Pharaohs! I totally disagreed with the medium Joe Power who was supposed to connect with the spirit of John Lennon but couldn't reach Princess Di The Bunkum Effect. Like every lunatic in the asylum believing they're Napoleon or Catherine The Great! I have also had personal experience of a medium who was firing shots into the air and hoping that I would agree to whatever the fallout was. A definite case of cold reading and Barnum Effect rolled into one and a load codswallop.

So that's it. In a nutshell, we all may connect with the other side if there is one. I've had proof there is something. And I'm not grieving. I've not lost anyone I'm trying to connect with. Moreover, I've had no proof that there isn't something. 

Are you going to give me that proof? Make me believe otherwise?

Over to you!

----------


## crayola

I used to be a practising medium but I was rubbish at it and I gave it up when I discovered paganism.

Judging by the posts on this thread perhaps I should take it up again because there seems to be a market for it however bad the medium is.  ::

----------


## joxville

> I used to be a practising medium but I was rubbish at it and I gave it up when I discovered paganism.
> 
> Judging by the posts on this thread perhaps I should take it up again because there seems to be a market for it however bad the medium is.


I recently discovered paganism-I like his Cantabile in D major, Op. 17 though my favourite is one of his Caprices: No. 13 in B-flat major (_Devil's Laughter_).  :Wink:  :Grin:

----------


## crayola

I like panini too but I wish the place I go to at lunchtime would lay off the raw onions.  ::

----------


## joxville

> I like panini too but I wish the place I go to at lunchtime would lay off the raw onions.


Here's a radical idea for you to try.....ask for a panini without onions!  ::

----------


## Metalattakk

> If you have ever seen 'Most Haunted' you will see Ciaran O'Keeffe in his role as a sceptic and he often has a good reason for some of the so called ghostly happenings. He has however on one or two occasions admitted that there may be a paranormal reason. But there is no proof.


Ah right, so he's employed by a 'paranormal' television show as a 'sceptic'. And we should trust his views because of this? Somehow, I think not...




> In much the same way, I believe that there is a God.


Somehow, I suspected as much. It all seems to fit in now.

With the deepest of respects, yours is the mind of one who says they are open-minded whilst being the absolute opposite.


Can someone point my head in the direction of the nearest brick wall?

----------


## 3of8

> Ah right, so he's employed by a 'paranormal' television show as a 'sceptic'. And we should trust his views because of this? Somehow, I think not...


Like.... duh!! He was employed by them _because_ he's a sceptic. I'm sure that if they'd come to you and said "Mr Metalattakk, could you please take some money off us and rip our findings to bits?" you would have jumped at the chance seeing how you've got something to prove and truly believe that you personally on this Org are turning people's minds. (you are kidding, right? Being self delusional? Again!)


> Already I have seen evidence of a shift in attitudes towards this subject on .Org. Maybe the message is getting through






> Somehow, I suspected as much. It all seems to fit in now.


So people who believe in God, Allah or any other deity are, according to you, fools? You are trying to force your doctrine of atheism on all and sundry.




> With the deepest of respects, yours is the mind of one who says they are open-minded whilst being the absolute opposite.


i'm glad you respect me. Life wouldn't be the same without it!





> Can someone point my head in the direction of the nearest brick wall?


If it can help get the message across to you, I'm sure that there will be a long queue of Org members willing help.

----------


## Metalattakk

> Like.... duh!! He was employed by them _because_ he's a sceptic. I'm sure that if they'd come to you and said "Mr Metalattakk, could you please take some money off us and rip our findings to bits?" you would have jumped at the chance seeing how you've got something to prove and truly believe that you personally on this Org are turning people's minds. (you are kidding, right? Being self delusional? Again!)


Stop putting words in my mouth. I said I have seen some evidence of a change in attitudes, not that I was personally "turning people's minds".

Please read and understand my posts properly in future.




> So people who believe in God, Allah or any other deity are, according to you, fools? You are trying to force your doctrine of atheism on all and sundry.


Again, you're putting words in my mouth - words that were certainly not mine. Please point out where I called _anyone_ "a fool"?

----------


## 3of8

> Please read and understand my posts properly in future.


I do read, and perfectly understand, your posts. However, I'm digesting the information and giving a reply. The fact that I haven't said what you said verbatim is nonsense. Nevertheless, this is what you said, word for word.....

*If I can sow the seed of doubt into only one reader, and encourage them to think about the subject and accept that there is evidence out there that contradicts their beliefs - and shows exactly how these charlatans achieve their trickery - then it is entirely worthwhile.*
You also said....

*I said I have seen some evidence of a change in attitudes, not that I was personally "turning people's minds".*
So looking at what you *have* said, I think it's reasonable to say that you believe are turning people's minds, wouldn't you. Or do you write one thing down and mean another?

You said there is evidence in a change in people's attitudes. Really? What is that evidence? That thing that you and many other detractors of spiritualism insist there is none of. I've asked you in previous posts and I shall again. Prove it. Show all on here the evidence you think you have.




> Again, you're putting words in my mouth - words that were certainly not mine. Please point out where I called _anyone_ "a fool"?


You're quite right. You never called anyone a fool and I apologise for saying you did.

But the implication was there, wasn't it?

----------


## webmannie

> "Mr Metalattakk, could you please take some money off us and rip our findings to bits?"


It's ok mr Metalattakk i'll employ you!!

----------


## Metalattakk

> You said there is evidence in a change in people's attitudes.


NO!!! I said I have _seen_ some evidence. Jesus H.  :: 




> Really? What is that evidence? That thing that you and many other detractors of spiritualism insist there is none of. I've asked you in previous posts and I shall again. Prove it. Show all on here the evidence you think you have.


The evidence I have seen is of a change in attitudes on this forum, as I said before. Compared with previous threads, there are many more people now who are willing to state their disbelief and condemnation of the shoddy, manipulative and frankly unethical behaviour of charlatan 'psychics' than in previous times..




> So looking at what you *have* said, I think it's reasonable to say that you believe are turning people's minds, wouldn't you.


I have no idea. I believe I am trying to change people's minds, and I believe I am correct to try to do so, but I have no idea if I am being successful or not.




> You're quite right. You never called anyone a fool and I apologise for saying you did.
> 
> But the implication was there, wasn't it?


Absolutley not. Many clever people believe in religion, many cleverer than me, that's for sure. However, I still believe that religious zealotry is the domain of the frightened and the bereft.




> It's ok mr Metalattakk i'll employ you!!


Depends. Are the wages better than I'm getting the now?  :Wink:   :Grin:

----------


## porshiepoo

Many people on the org already know my beliefs when it comes to mediumship, spiritualism, life after death etc etc.

Friday evening I attended the Portland Arms at Lybster where Natalie Simpson was holding an evening of clairvoyance. I'd never heard of Natalie before so didn't know what to expect from her and was very pleasantly suprised.
My initial feeling when I saw her and heard her introduction was to leg it. lol. She came across as bloomin scary and when she had finished telling us that if we didn't clearly answer her she'd walk out, I'd was left hoping and praying a hole would swallow me up so I didn't get a reading. If I'd been on my own I actually think I'd have left at that point.
However, when I took the time to really listen and understand what she was saying and why, I began to realise that everything she said was correct and her attitude was quite understandable.
It takes alot of energy from both spirit and the medium to channel these messages and she had every right to expect that those of us sat in front of her having paid an entrance fee were there to recieve these messages. It must be so annoying and frustrating when people who recieve the message do not acknowledge them.

Anyway I got past my initial fear of her lol and settled in to see just what kind of medium she was. Amazing, that's all I can say. She reeled off information as quick as you like, did not allow people to reach and was spot on with everything she said.
My family and I did get a reading and i have to say she was accurate with all of it. She even asked who Liam was. Now that's not a name you commonly find and it just so happens it's my brother.

The best part of the evening though was the message given to a couple of boys, followed by a family across the way from us. The spirit that got through was obvious to some of us (I won't mention any names) and just seeing the reaction from the two young lads (who were quite embarrassed a couple of times lol) and the family was amazing.
I undersatnd that they were extremely upset but they got the message that they obviously needed and I hope that they got at least some comfort from knowing that the pirit is safe, happy and healthy on the other side.
I cannot imagine the grief of losing a child as I have not experienced it - thank god - and as hard as it was for this family to hear from such a recent passing, no one in the room that night could fail but to be touched by the plight of that family and those two young boys.
I just hope the two young lads take the advice of their spirit friend and sort their lives out. This spirit did not want his death to be in vain and I sincerely hope that their message will help them to come to terms with their friends passing and help them to move on and make something of themselves.

It's funny but alot of the time when people get readings in this environment, everyone's willing the medium to hurry up in the hope that they'll get the next message but on Friday night I don't think there was one person there that wanted the messages to stop coming for those people. 
What's even weirder is that I got more from seeing those lovely people get their messages than I di from getting my own or my daughters or mum getting theirs.

So, anyone gets a chance to see Natalie Simpson, grab it. She is a genuine medium and her abilities are astounding. She actually reminds me of John Edwards.
I for one cannot wait for her to be up this way again.

----------


## 3of8

> I used to be a practising medium but I was rubbish at it and I gave it up when I discovered paganism.
> 
> Judging by the posts on this thread perhaps I should take it up again because there seems to be a market for it however bad the medium is.


Silly statement to make when some of us are trying to be open minded about spiritualism. That's the type of comment Metallattack should tear to bits. I'm surprised no-one else said anything.

----------


## 3of8

> NO!!! I said I have _seen_ some evidence. Jesus H. 
> 
> 
> 
> The evidence I have seen is of a change in attitudes on this forum, as I said before. Compared with previous threads, there are many more people now who are willing to state their disbelief and condemnation of the shoddy, manipulative and frankly unethical behaviour of charlatan 'psychics' than in previous times..


Funny that. I've also denounced unethical and charlatan 'psychics'. In fact, I always will. But I will defend those who aren't and don't like to speak up against the naysayers. But there isn't necessarily change of attitudes on the forum. Just the same old people arguing to and fro. With maybe a mix of new ones thrown in for good measure.




> I have no idea. I believe I am trying to change people's minds, and I believe I am correct to try to do so, but I have no idea if I am being successful or not.


That statement alone shows that all you want to do is be is prejudiced and vindictive every time psychic mediums are mentioned. Very high and mighty of you! I'm sure the weak willed amongst the Org are bound to be bowing to you and proclaiming that they're not worthy.

I believe that I am right that in saying that you are incorrect in trying to change people's minds. I believe that a stand should be made against the fakes and I agree that people should be made aware of moneygrabbers. I also believe that a stand should be made against those who are determined to bully others into their way of thinking. But it's their choice in whether they wish to believe or not. Not yours.

It's noted however that when Crayola pops up with this remark....



> I used to be a practising medium but I was rubbish at it and I gave it up when I discovered paganism.
> 
> Judging by the posts on this thread perhaps I should take it up again because there seems to be a market for it however bad the medium is.


.... you aren't there either denouncing her as a wannabe charlatan psychic (I know that statement _could_ be taken with a pinch of salt) or criticising her for a completely stupid remark in a fairly sensible debate. 





> Absolutley not. Many clever people believe in religion, many cleverer than me, that's for sure. However, I still believe that religious zealotry is the domain of the frightened and the bereft.


Never mind religious zealotry. How about anti-spiritualism zealotry? Carry on tub-thumping.

----------


## The Pepsi Challenge

3of8, what you do with your money is entirely up to you.

Incidentally, what are your views on homeopathy?

----------


## porshiepoo

> Silly statement to make when some of us are trying to be open minded about spiritualism. That's the type of comment Metallattack should tear to bits. I'm surprised no-one else said anything.


Between you and me and obviously all the other s that read this  ::  I think Crayola is a bit of a Flake.
She's tried this, that or the other but hasn't really managed to get a decent grasp of one bit of any of it and appears to just flit about with airy fairy ideas every now and then.

I suspect, and this is just my opinion, that her avatar is actually a photoshopped true photo of herself.  :Wink:

----------


## Metalattakk

> Silly statement to make when some of us are trying to be open minded about spiritualism. That's the type of comment Metallattack should tear to bits. I'm surprised no-one else said anything.


Why on earth would I want to 'tear to bits' crayola's post? It makes perfect sense to me. Or do you think she's being serious when she says that she should take it up again?  :: 

Again, I think you're misunderstanding what is right in front of your eyes.

----------


## 3of8

> 3of8, what you do with your money is entirely up to you.
> 
> Incidentally, what are your views on homeopathy?


Fully agree with it when used correctly. Why? What's it got to do with psychics and mediums? 

Quid pro quo. What are your views?

----------


## 3of8

> Why on earth would I want to 'tear to bits' crayola's post? It makes perfect sense to me. Or do you think she's being serious when she says that she should take it up again? 
> 
> Again, I think you're misunderstanding what is right in front of your eyes.


 ::  I think you speed read but miss out the vital bits. I did say that her comments could be taken with a pinch of salt, but the 'confused'  smiley she put at the end threw in the seed of doubt. But my opinion still stands. Here's someone who suggested fleecing people at supposed psychic readings, as a self confessed rubbish medium, yet you don't comment on it.

Methinks you're the one who's misunderstanding what's right in front of his eyes.

----------


## Metalattakk

It's obvious that this debate has now reached its nadir.

I'll not be wasting any more time trying to deliberate with such an obstinate, ill-equipped and bafflingly heedless adversary.

----------


## 3of8

> It's obvious that this debate has now reached its nadir.
> 
> I'll not be wasting any more time trying to deliberate with such an obstinate, ill-equipped and bafflingly heedless adversary.


Obstinate? Yes!

Ill-equipped? For what? A robust discussion in which I can participate, acknowledge your views, but refuse to accept your insistence that you are right and I am wrong? 

Heedless? Nope. Don't think so. To heed is to give thought to; regard; notice; observe. 

Which I think I did.

Goodbye

----------


## Vistravi

Good lord 3 of 8 and metalattack. Agree to disagree is the best soloution don't ya think? :Wink:

----------


## gleeber

Come on now chaps. You were doing so well too.  :: 
This was a scary thread. 
Ive followed it loosely all the way through and there was nothing I could add that would me look any less daft than some of the posts on here. 
Dont get me wrong, I'm daft too but no daft enough to get drawn into a daft debate on caithness.org about invisible forces who plant thoughts in peoples minds. 
I think it's a throwback to our cave dwelling days. 
I know. Another daft notion.  ::

----------


## Vistravi

> I used to be a practising medium but I was rubbish at it and I gave it up when I discovered paganism.
> 
> Judging by the posts on this thread perhaps I should take it up again because there seems to be a market for it however bad the medium is.


Crayola honestly what ru like ::

----------


## wicker8

> That's why they will tell you, "Don't worry, he didn't suffer and he's having the time of his life with Elvis and George Best on the other side"
> 
> "Sorry, but he died screaming and is suffering eternal Hell as we speak" just ain't gonna happen!!
> 
> I am afraid that the definitions of Supernatural are similar to this:-
> 
> su·per·nat·u·ral  (spr-nchr-l)
> adj.
> 1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world.
> ...


 you know you really are such a BORE  ::

----------


## Metalattakk

> you know you really are such a BORE


Way-hey!

scorrie 1 - 0 wicker8

 ::

----------


## crayola

> Silly statement to make when some of us are trying to be open minded about spiritualism. That's the type of comment Metallattack should tear to bits. I'm surprised no-one else said anything.





> Why on earth would I want to 'tear to bits' crayola's post? It makes perfect sense to me. Or do you think she's being serious when she says that she should take it up again? 
> 
> Again, I think you're misunderstanding what is right in front of your eyes.


Sorry to disappoint you 3of8 but Metalattakk interpreted my irony correctly, as one would expect from a metal man.

----------


## Metalattakk

Iron-y?  :Wink: 

Ferrous perhaps but far from rusty.  :Grin: 

Metal-tastic! \m/

----------


## Boozeburglar

Darn Brown boy calls me up every day and tells me what I had for tea. Uncanny! (He does this for no pay!) That is what I call a musician! I too used to be a medium but I have to admit I am more a large now. Mind you there is still plenty of money in it, even now the days of the syckick are largely over. Where are the new Wise or Corbett?

----------


## katarina

Thank you guys.  I really enjoy these debates about spititualism!  Poor Metalattack - what a shock he's gonna get when he reaches the spirit world!

----------


## catran

> Thank you guys. I really enjoy these debates about spititualism! Poor Metalattack - what a shock he's gonna get when he reaches the spirit world!


 Excuse my ignorance but what has this so called spirit world got to offer????Me thinks I could be sort of interested?????? I am rather niave when it comes to all this things happening.

----------


## katarina

> Excuse my ignorance but what has this so called spirit world got to offer????Me thinks I could be sort of interested?????? I am rather niave when it comes to all this things happening.


Get the book, 'From one world to another'  by Rita Rogers.  Worth a read methinks.

----------


## Metalattakk

> Excuse my ignorance but what has this so called spirit world got to offer????Me thinks I could be sort of interested?????? *I am rather niave when it comes to all this things happening.*


Sure, here you go. All explained in simple to understand terms and using rationale, intelligence and simple common sense:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect




> Get the book, 'From one world to another'  by Rita Rogers.  Worth a read methinks.


Wait! Is this the same Rita Rogers that claimed to be Princess Diana's personal 'medium'? EPIC FAIL on her behalf, methinks...  :Grin:

----------


## Tinkerbell09

Does anyone know when the next reading are taking place?

Im really keen to go and see what it has for me in store!

----------


## router

Its all tosh, the spiritual world is a way to make money in this life.Gullable people pay money to be led into a fraudulent situation and belief. ::

----------


## Tinkerbell09

See i'm quite into all this kinda stuff. 
"Crossing over with Colin Fry" on the Sky box is a good programme to watch. I watch it all the time and it really interests me!

I've got Angel Cards and like doing them for my friends. Some things that come up with these cards are quite interesting too! Helps me when i'm feeling down about those who i miss  :Frown: 

I was quite upset one night about someone who had passed. So i sat down and did my Angel Cards, and the reading i got from that was just spot on! I think thats whats getting me into all this kind of stuff!

----------


## Nvidi4

That makes me laugh router...... the spiritual world you say, if it wasn't for spirit you wouldn't be here.  ::  You are spirit living in your physical vehicle {your body} it's not the other way around. That is exactly what the problem is people will not accept spirit when it is all around us everywhere there is just no getting away from it, if people accepted and listened more to spirit their lives would be a lot more meaningful and richer, you just need to open your eyes and your mind to it then you will find that all the other stuff that we think matters doesn't matter at all! And its not being gullable to pay money to someone who's job it is is to work and help spirit.....people just need to accept and get out of their heads trying to figure it out as to whether it's right or wrong or whether it exists or not.......it does exist no matter how much you may think it doesn't, if you can accept that then you will realise that you do not need to worry about what's going on out there and you can then enjoy the wonderful world that we live in!  ::

----------


## crayola

How do you know all this Nvidi4?  :: 

I have spent a lot of time seeking the spirit of life but I have not found what you claim to know.  ::

----------


## Nvidi4

From experience crayola......when you've "felt" and "seen" things and then been "shown" things then you know.....it's not a gift I would wish on anyone and it cannot be found in books etc. Books may help you to understand but living it is the only way to know..........think it's called being sensitive!  ::

----------


## Kenneth

I am sensing....that this thread is for losers!

----------


## Boozeburglar

reading it or adding to it Kenneth?

----------


## Kenneth

the middle one.

----------


## router

> That makes me laugh router...... the spiritual world you say, if it wasn't for spirit you wouldn't be here.  You are spirit living in your physical vehicle {your body} it's not the other way around. That is exactly what the problem is people will not accept spirit when it is all around us everywhere there is just no getting away from it, if people accepted and listened more to spirit their lives would be a lot more meaningful and richer, you just need to open your eyes and your mind to it then you will find that all the other stuff that we think matters doesn't matter at all! And its not being gullable to pay money to someone who's job it is is to work and help spirit.....people just need to accept and get out of their heads trying to figure it out as to whether it's right or wrong or whether it exists or not.......it does exist no matter how much you may think it doesn't, if you can accept that then you will realise that you do not need to worry about what's going on out there and you can then enjoy the wonderful world that we live in!


I believe what my eyes see. ::

----------


## teenybash

> How do you know all this Nvidi4? 
> 
> I have spent a lot of time seeking the spirit of life but I have not found what you claim to know.


I'm butting in perhaps to your question to Nvidi4 which might shed light on the Spirit world and it's existence.
Those who have had a nigh go with death or the popular phrase 'near death experience,' will verify there is a Spirit world...............no books need to be read, no learning need be undertaken or opinions sought and whether we or what anyone believes is of no consquence as, it is a simple fact. :Smile:

----------


## Nvidi4

> I believe what my eyes see.


Me too!  :: 

As for the rest of the LOSERS continue walking in the dark  ::  you don't know what you are missing out on.......you can almost "sense" the conditioning of the ones who are skeptical and non-believers, it's time this veil was lifted, its been drummed into people down through the ages not to believe in such things.....it's such a shame that the church and other religious denominations condemns the very thought of a "Spiritworld" and that some people can communicate with "the other side" and or with other people, animals, birds, plants etc .....truly amazing. Just the other day we were out walking and a butterfly came into our path and fluttered about in front of us all the way along the path almost like he/she was trying to tell us something and then a bee came buzzing around and lo and behold the butterfly attacked the bee, something I would not have believed if I hadnt seen it with my own eyes and guess what the bee took off! Just imagine a butterfly attacking a bee............pure dead brilliant!  ::

----------


## Metalattakk

> As for the rest of the LOSERS continue walking in the dark  you don't know what you are missing out on.......you can almost "sense" the conditioning of the ones who are skeptical and non-believers, it's time this veil was lifted, its been drummed into people down through the ages not to believe in such things.....it's such a shame that the church and other religious denominations condemns the very thought of a "Spiritworld" and that some people can communicate with "the other side" and or with other people, animals, birds, plants etc .....truly amazing. Just the other day we were out walking and a butterfly came into our path and fluttered about in front of us all the way along the path almost like he/she was trying to tell us something and then a bee came buzzing around and lo and behold the butterfly attacked the bee, something I would not have believed if I hadnt seen it with my own eyes and guess what the bee took off! Just imagine a butterfly attacking a bee............pure dead brilliant!


Ok, you've convinced me! I now am enlightened and fully believe in the incontrovertible evidence of the Spirit World as you've just described it! Even though it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!!

How could I have been so blind???  :: 

</sarcasm>

----------


## crayola

> I'm butting in perhaps to your question to Nvidi4 which might shed light on the Spirit world and it's existence.
> Those who have had a nigh go with death or the popular phrase 'near death experience,' will verify there is a Spirit world...............no books need to be read,


Thanks for butting in, I'm fascinated by what you say but I'm even more fascinated by why you say it. Can you tell us more?




> no learning need be undertaken or opinions sought and whether we or what anyone believes is of no consequence as, it is a simple fact.


I know I've quoted this out of context, that's because I wanted to ask if you think this way about anything other than the spirit world.

----------


## crayola

> Ok, you've convinced me! I now am enlightened and fully believe in the incontrovertible evidence of the Spirit World as you've just described it! Even though it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!!
> 
> How could I have been so blind??? 
> 
> </sarcasm>


I don't know but I'm going to be looking at butterflies in a new light next time I see any.  :Smile:

----------


## scorrie

> I'm butting in perhaps to your question to Nvidi4 which might shed light on the Spirit world and it's existence.
> Those who have had a nigh go with death or the popular phrase 'near death experience,' will verify there is a Spirit world...............no books need to be read, no learning need be undertaken or opinions sought and whether we or what anyone believes is of no consquence as, it is a simple fact.


Have YOU had a near-death experience?

If not, you are selectively choosing to believe another person(s) experience(s) is/are the truth. Funny things happen with our minds when we dream. Strange things happen to the human body as it nears death. We do not fully understand this process but it safe to assume that perceptions will be altered at such a time. Would you rather pay heed to the strange utterings of a dying person or take the advice of a person speaking rationally, not under the influence of chemical effects on the brain?

Feel free not to bother reading any books or undertaking any learning. Don't bother to seek out any opinions. YOUR mind is clearly closed to any input which is contrary to your belief. As evidence goes, even in the loosest sense of the word, you have NONE.

----------


## Boozeburglar

> Between you and me and obviously all the other s that read this  I think Crayola is a bit of a Flake.
> She's tried this, that or the other but hasn't really managed to get a decent grasp of one bit of any of it and appears to just flit about with airy fairy ideas every now and then.
> 
> I suspect, and this is just my opinion, that her avatar is actually a photoshopped true photo of herself.


Why so negative? I love Crayola and her open mind. How do you get such a complete picture of someone you don't know from a web forum, and think your opinion is valid enough to express this way?

----------


## crayola

> I love Crayola and her open mind.


Oooh, I like that so much I'll add you to the curried orgers menu.  :Wink:

----------


## cuddlepop

> How do you know all this Nvidi4? 
> 
> I have spent a lot of time seeking the spirit of life but I have not found what you claim to know.


Sometimes you just have to believe.Nvidi4 doesnt need scientific proof like me he just "believes" abit like any other religion. :Smile:

----------


## Nvidi4

> Ok, you've convinced me! I now am enlightened and fully believe in the incontrovertible evidence of the Spirit World as you've just described it! Even though it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!!
> 
> How could I have been so blind??? 
> 
> </sarcasm>


Does it have to make sense?  ::  That's what wrong with you guys too much use of the logical masculine side of the brain, try using the intuitive feminine side a bit more and you'll "see" much better!  ::

----------


## Metalattakk

> Does it have to make sense?


Eh, yes. Your belief in nonsense is illogical.




> That's what wrong with you guys too much use of the logical masculine side of the brain, try using the intuitive feminine side a bit more and you'll "see" much better!


Perhaps if you used the  grown-up 'logical' side of the brain instead of the child-like 'fairy-tale' side of your brain, you might be better able to understand.

Another fine illustration of how it is impossible to teach the obvious to the oblivious.

----------


## Nvidi4

That does my head in metalattack .... :Confused:  your belief in nonsense is illogical mmhhhhhh I'll need to think about that one and then again maybe not it'll deplete my energy so I won't bother! You see it as nonsense and illogical... I don't! I use my logic and my senses equally most of the time...... they don't always agree, logic usually wins which is a shame really as it leaves spirit very sad! And I am all grown-up already thats what happens when you "believe"....then it makes life much more exciting and you then see everything through the eyes of a child......but you wouldnt understand that!  ::   BTW What is your obvious metalattackk? You'll never teach me it anyway as I have my own obvious!  ::

----------


## teenybash

> Thanks for butting in, I'm fascinated by what you say but I'm even more fascinated by why you say it. Can you tell us more?
> 
> I know I've quoted this out of context, that's because I wanted to ask if you think this way about anything other than the spirit world.


 



> Have YOU had a near-death experience?
> 
> If not, you are selectively choosing to believe another person(s) experience(s) is/are the truth. Funny things happen with our minds when we dream. Strange things happen to the human body as it nears death. We do not fully understand this process but it safe to assume that perceptions will be altered at such a time. Would you rather pay heed to the strange utterings of a dying person or take the advice of a person speaking rationally, not under the influence of chemical effects on the brain?
> 
> Feel free not to bother reading any books or undertaking any learning. Don't bother to seek out any opinions. YOUR mind is clearly closed to any input which is contrary to your belief. As evidence goes, even in the loosest sense of the word, you have NONE.


Thank you both for your interest....the reason I 'butted in' is yes, I have been close to death and did start the journey that leads to 'the other side.' Because of what I experienced I now have an undoubting knoweledge that life beyond death does exist and a place of the greatest peace waits for us all and in our earthly lives can be accessed.

Scorrie, in my search for answers to try and understand what had happened to me, I did read books...books of religion, reincarnation, spiritual development, past lives, psychology, astrology, psychic phenomenon, mediumship and so the list goes on...
.
The many words and opinions I read left me with the conclusion that I am one of the luckiest people on earth because I have no fear of dying and have been left with the gift of inner peace and the knoweledge of how futile and petty minded it is to judge others.

Within us all there lies a place of sanctuary and when found, no worries, stress or fear can ever touch us.

----------


## Metalattakk

> You see it as nonsense and illogical... I don't!


Then please, explain it logically to me.




> I use my logic and my senses equally most of the time...... they don't always agree, logic usually wins which is a shame really as it leaves spirit very sad! And I am all grown-up already thats what happens when you "believe"....then it makes life much more exciting and you then see everything through the eyes of a child......but you wouldnt understand that!   BTW What is your obvious metalattackk? You'll never teach me it anyway as I have my own obvious!


Jebus, where do I start? None of that makes any sense whatsoever.

----------


## Metalattakk

> Scorrie, in my search for answers to try and understand what had happened to me, I did read books...books of religion, reincarnation, spiritual development, past lives, psychology, astrology, psychic phenomenon, mediumship and so the list goes on...


http://news.softpedia.com/news/Near-...ed-22390.shtml

A scientific study. But you'd rather believe in fairy-tales and your own wishful thinking... Hmm....

----------


## Nvidi4

> Then please, explain it logically to me.
> 
> Explain what logically!  I've a very short memory span and lost track of what it is that you wan't explaining logically and even if I could remember which i can't I more than likely wouldn't be able to anyway....explain it logically that is! Who do you work for metalattackk is it MI5/6 or is it the Hit Squad! 
> 
> 
> 
> Jebus, where do I start? None of that makes any sense whatsoever.


Makes perfect sense to me metalattackk.......you have a really big problem if you can't understand that!  ::

----------


## Metalattakk

> Explain what logically!  I've a very short memory span and lost track of what it is that you wan't explaining logically and even if I could remember which i can't I more than likely wouldn't be able to anyway....explain it logically that is! Who do you work for metalattackk is it MI5/6 or is it the Hit Squad!


ROFL. So you can't explain how it all works then. So why would you believe it exists - all you're doing is believing what you want to believe, whether it is true, logical, sensible or not!




> Makes perfect sense to me metalattackk.......you have a really big problem if you can't understand that!


I suspect I don't have the problem...  :Wink:

----------


## Nvidi4

How what all works?  ::  You've lost me metalattackk....I can't explain anything as I know nothing, I only know what I have seen and experienced and therefore I cannot prove anything to anyone or explain it to anyone and even if I tried to, you and a whole lot of others wouldn't believe me, it's enough for me that I know and that all the other rubbish doesn't matter, I mean the stuff that we think does .........does that make any sense?  ::  And I sense you are trying to wind me up!  :Wink:

----------


## Nvidi4

You changed your post metalattackk!  ::  I believe because I have seen and experienced......simple! I cant prove to you or anyone else and even if I did you wouldn't believe me.......would you then .......no I didn't think you would!  ::

----------


## Metalattakk

> You changed your post metalattackk!


Yes, I did, because I had missed the part you had misquoted, and my response wasn't expansive enough.




> I believe because I have seen and experienced......simple! I cant prove to you or anyone else and even if I did you wouldn't believe me.......would you then .......no I didn't think you would!


Not when simple scientific/common sense explanations are available, no. You 'say' you have seen. I say 'explain it'. Without a viable explanation, how can _anyone_ believe?

----------


## Nvidi4

Some things just are metalattackk and there is no way of explaining .......not logically or scientifically.......at least not that I know of....then again I know nothing only what I've experienced and I cannot explain that to anyone in ordinary layman terms!  ::  Logic and science doesn't come into it or maybe it does I don't know.........never did like science much and not all things have simple logical explanations.....some things do and some things don't!  ::  Sorry I can't help you to believe!  ::

----------


## Metalattakk

> Some things just are metalattackk and there is no way of explaining .......not logically or scientifically.......


This is of course very true. But, when presented with something that has no explanation - and I'll offer the human conscience here as an example - what is the most obvious thing to do?

1: Wait until proof has been gained and a sensible explanation given.

or

2: Believe some wild nonsensical fantasy fairy-story with no possible basis in the factual world, just to make you feel better.

Now you can take option 2 if you want. Me, I'll stick with option 1.

When that option 1 (as in the case of charlatan psychics) is added to, by theories, demonstrations and explanations of how it all could work, then who in their right mind can possibly still stick to the provisos given by option 2?

----------


## teenybash

> http://news.softpedia.com/news/Near-...ed-22390.shtml
> 
> A scientific study. But you'd rather believe in fairy-tales and your own wishful thinking... Hmm....


Thank you for taking the time in seeking out this link which I found interesting yet concludes nothing.
I noticed at the beginning of the article it stated ''too complex for scientific study.'' Does that mean, what science cannot explain therefore does not exist?
I cannot put any faith into the theory of REM, the state between wakefulness and sleep and the attempt to draw a comparison to NDE as throughout the writing the word 'might' was used, which only adds to the fact that there are those that cannot be explained........

I would love to believe in fairytales the way I did as a child and as to wishful thinking.............I don't need to because I know that wishes can come true and have and will again.................. :Wink:

----------


## scorrie

> Scorrie, in my search for answers to try and understand what had happened to me, I did read books...books of religion, reincarnation, spiritual development, past lives, psychology, astrology, psychic phenomenon, mediumship and so the list goes on...
> .
> The many words and opinions I read left me with the conclusion that I am one of the luckiest people on earth because I have no fear of dying


Your selection of books is entirely one-sided. They all pretty much amount to the same thing, simply looked at from different angles. The following page makes it clear that science is not conclusive but does offer explanations for aspects of near-death experiences:-

http://science.howstuffworks.com/nea...xperience4.htm

I can assure you that I have no fear of dying either. It is the one certainty of life and there is nothing to be afraid of. Just as our brain grew and developed, so it must one day die. It was hard-wired during life and I cannot see how it downloads to the server via a wireless router upon death. Just as well, as there is a lot of "data" I don't want anyone to see!!  :Wink:

----------


## gleeber

I hope MA that you won't think I am stalking you but this kind of thread always draws my attention. Scorrie too has a background of trust only the science and i dont have a problem with that either because I'm inclined to agree. Sometimes though, peoples experiences, because they are unique and cannot be replicated again and again in the laboratory are given very little credence by the experimentalist, and because of that are often ridiculed. Richard Dawkins comes to mind immediatley. 
I have 2 unique experiences from the past pertaining to this thread and although I have worked them out logically and scientifically, because they were so real and apparently happened outside my head, perhaps my conclusions are wrong? Maybe there really is a spirit world and I'm the one who should be being ridiculed for not believing the evidence of my eyes and trusting the thoughts of scientists who's bias are obviously in favour of being able to repeat the experience again and again and again. Those experiments are possible in the physical world but in the psychological world the bias of the scientist cannot be exluded from the results he/she produces and their results are therfore contaminated. Rational and logical perhaps but contaminated by a starting belief that the spirit world does not exist. I have that problem too.  ::

----------


## Nvidi4

> This is of course very true. But, when presented with something that has no explanation - and I'll offer the human conscience here as an example - what is the most obvious thing to do?
> 
> 1: Wait until proof has been gained and a sensible explanation given.
> 
> or
> 
> 2: Believe some wild nonsensical fantasy fairy-story with no possible basis in the factual world, just to make you feel better.
> 
> Now you can take option 2 if you want. Me, I'll stick with option 1.
> ...


Some individuals have had "experiences" which has nothing at all to do with believing in "a fantasy fairy story".......when these individuals have "experienced" what I suppose you would call "supernatural phenomena" which is ofcourse very "natural" and there is no doubt in that individuals mind as to what they have witnessed and that unique experience has lead them to believe in Spirit, that is their individual experience and no ammount of telling another of their experience will make them believe. Neither can you call upon it to make it happen again just so as you can show proof to another. It does not work that way!  :Grin:

----------


## katarina

> Ok, you've convinced me! I now am enlightened and fully believe in the incontrovertible evidence of the Spirit World as you've just described it! Even though it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!!
> 
> How could I have been so blind??? 
> 
> </sarcasm>


You'll always be blind MA, methinks.  An avid follower of the religion of science and reader of the bible of wikipedia, blindly following your own faith.  
I keep my mind open enough to read you links, but sorry, they do nothing to convince me.
did someone say the religion does not accept the spirit world? I didn't know that.  I know several active Christians who are also actively believe in the spirit world.

----------


## Metalattakk

> You'll always be blind MA, methinks.


Nonsense. When incontrovertible evidence is presented that proves the existence of the spirit world/psychic phenomenon/anything at all then I will happily accede the point.

So come on then, where's the incontrovertible evidence?




> An avid follower of the religion of science and reader of the bible of wikipedia, blindly following your own faith.


Interesting how you're trying to turn this around on the back of fictional overtones to any form of religion. As if saying anything is religious actually makes it so.

Carroll's Bellman you are not.  :Wink:

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## Aaldtimer

Has Michael Jackson checked in with any of you yet? :Wink:

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## scorrie

> Scorrie too has a background of trust only the science and i dont have a problem with that either because I'm inclined to agree.


It's not quite as clear cut as you make it sound from my viewpoint.

All through my lifetime, mysterious happenings have turned out to have a logical explanation when analysed further. Some things cannot be fully explained but theories can offer a plausible reason without providing certainty. I could be wrong but of the choice between a spiritual world, and alteration to brain activities, being the cause of many events, I choose the latter as the more likely.

Maybe I am lucky in that I have experienced very vivid and mysterious dreams. I assumed that everyone else experienced the same but am led to believe that not all people do. This has led me to believe that the brain is capable of some amazing things when we are not fully conscious and it is given free rein to present images we would not experience whilst awake.

If you think about a scenario where the human body did not need rest and we never slept, if we then let people experience sleep for the very first time, I am sure that their first dream would be a mind blowing experience for all involved. No doubt they would struggle for an explanation of what had occurred during this process they had encountered for the first time. A near-death experience is, hopefully a unique event. If people had them every day as a normal part of their lives we would be able to analyse and perhaps explain better the processes involved.

Each to their own, I find most of the material on Spiritualism to lack credibility but many millions will lap it up like nectar. We will all die either way. My life has been fulfilling enough without the need for a belief in what MAY exist. If others need a belief in something to fulfil their lives then so be it.

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## Nvidi4

Its not so much of a belief scorrie.....its more of an eye-opener to let you know that there is much more to life than what they try to tell us and teach us! Imo when they stick a name or a label on it or at least try to thats what spoils it all!  ::  

Katarina made a remark with regards to my saying that the church and other religious denominations go against a lot of things "spiritual" but that's only my own experience! I daresay there are a lot of people who are church goers etc who have now opened up to the "supernatural" "spiritual" side of life! I hate all these names they give things that are perfectly natural!  ::   ::

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## butterfly

This sure has been an interesting discussion but i am still a believer in the afterlife though!

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## Metalattakk

Ok butterfly, can you explain _why_ you are a believer in the afterlife?

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## TBH

> Ok butterfly, can you explain _why_ you are a believer in the afterlife?


Brain-washery commits wonderful acts?

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## Rheghead

1) If the Universe is in a constant flux of a Big Bang-Expansion-Contraction-Big Crunch-Big Bang-Expansion etc 

and if 

2)Stephen Hawking is right in that Big Holes do actually emit some kinds of radiation from the singularity, 

 then it may be possible in a non-scientific hypothesis where by echoes from a previous oscillation of the Universe can bleed into another cycle of reality.  Thus we arrive at the distinct possibility of ghosts living amongst us from time to time.  Just a crazy thought, I wonder if anyone else has thought of this or am I completely bananas? :: 

Well there is a model, can we try it to the test?

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## butterfly

> Ok butterfly, can you explain _why_ you are a believer in the afterlife?


 


I saw a ghost that's why.Right in front of me.My friend was with me and she saw it too.

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## Rheghead

> I saw a ghost that's why.Right in front of me.My friend was with me and she saw it too.


Must be right then if it's verified by your friend.  ::

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## Venture

> Must be right then if it's verified by your friend.


...and perhaps a few spirits too. ::

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## Metalattakk

> I saw a ghost that's why.Right in front of me.My friend was with me and she saw it too.


Ok, so you 'say' you saw a ghost, and you 'say' that your friend saw it too.

Where do I sign up?

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## crayola

> 1) If the Universe is in a constant flux of a Big Bang-Expansion-Contraction-Big Crunch-Big Bang-Expansion etc 
> 
> and if 
> 
> 2)Stephen Hawking is right in that Big Holes do actually emit some kinds of radiation from the singularity, 
> 
>  then it may be possible in a non-scientific hypothesis where by echoes from a previous oscillation of the Universe can bleed into another cycle of reality.  Thus we arrive at the distinct possibility of ghosts living amongst us from time to time.  Just a crazy thought, I wonder if anyone else has thought of this or am I completely bananas?
> 
> Well there is a model, can we try it to the test?


Tell us how we can test it and we'll try.  ::

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## katarina

> Brain-washery commits wonderful acts?


so being brought up on the wikipedia and told from babyhood 'anything that cant be proved must not be true'   is not brain-washery?

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## katarina

> Ok, so you 'say' you saw a ghost, and you 'say' that your friend saw it too.
> 
> Where do I sign up?


Now you are implying that butterfly is lying!!!!!   
I have had experiences that cannot be explained and I was not on spirits or drugs of any kind - before some one suggests that.

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## Metalattakk

> so being brought up on the wikipedia and told from babyhood 'anything that cant be proved must not be true'   is not brain-washery?


Nobody is saying 'anything that can't be proved must not be true'. Those are your words, nobody else's.

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## Metalattakk

> Now you are implying that butterfly is lying!!!!!


Nonsense. I am simply saying that it'll take more than an eye-witness account to sway me to believing in the 'spiritual' side.

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## Nvidi4

I would beware "skeptics" and the like who say they do not believe in all this so-called "nonsense"  could be they are fishing or is that phishing to suss out the "sensitive ones" with the sole intention of trying to discredit and ultimately destroy them!  Forewarned is forearmed! Best to ignore them and keep on believing even although they dont! Onward and upward!

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## crayola

The more important fundamental laws and facts of physical science have
all been discovered, and these are now so firmly established that the
possibility of their ever being supplanted in consequence of new
discoveries is exceedingly remote. Our future discoveries must be
looked for in the sixth place of decimals.  - physicist Albert. A.
Michelson, 1894

I like skeptics.  ::

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## Rheghead

> The more important fundamental laws and facts of physical science have
> all been discovered, and these are now so firmly established that the
> possibility of their ever being supplanted in consequence of new
> discoveries is exceedingly remote. Our future discoveries must be
> looked for in the sixth place of decimals.  - physicist Albert. A.
> Michelson, 1894
> 
> I like skeptics.


And how right he was and that was back in 1894!  ::

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## crayola

Could you justify that please?  ::

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## Rheghead

> Could you justify that please?


So you don't think it is right?  ::

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## Nvidi4

I often wonder why people "listen" to what others said back in whatever year it is, why don't they listen to themselves instead of turning to another to find the answers!  ::  The answers lie within each and everyone of us!  :: 

I like skeptics too crayola .......only they can be a pain in the posterior at times!  ::

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## gleeber

> I often wonder why people "listen" to what others said back in whatever year it is, why don't they listen to themselves instead of turning to another to find the answers!  The answers lie within each and everyone of us!


I think it's much easier to kid ourselves on than it is to kid others.  ::

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## crayola

> So you don't think it is right?


Your supposition is correct. Michelson's wasn't.

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## Nvidi4

> I think it's much easier to kid ourselves on than it is to kid others.


If you say so!  ::

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## katarina

I think we gor away from the subject.  What were they like?  the mediums in the frances street club that night?  any good?

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