# General > Politics >  Where have all the Westminater /unionist flag waves gone

## dozy

What's happened to the  unionist and Westminster flag waves ,surely they ain't up for the new Red ,white and blue flag rollout . The new ones have logos such as Abuser, groomer, touch me up, Say nothing and keep your job,and "A nice place to warm my hands"  they can now join the old set which had Molester, Thief, Conman( or women) lLiar, and of course Unionist. Sick one and all . I don't  hear their supporters shouting now.  Let's see how many will put their name to this one. . .

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## dc1

dozy can you please explain i cant understand one word your are saying . speaking in riddles or maybe i am dozy

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## dozy

Now the Westminster brainwashing is complete as their supporters have all gone " three monkeys" . It would be sad if they weren't so vile.   Blind men Can't see ,Evil ones just don't want to .

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## Fulmar

Haven't you got another update for us yet? I am surprised.

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## dc1

still dont understand dozy stop talking in riddles and as we say up here spit out

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## orkneycadian

More to the point - Whatever happened to Piratelassie?  Famed for throwing some ill informed Scottish Nationalist propaganda into the ring, lighting the blue touchpaper, then clearing off without coming back to substantiate her claims?

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## Goodfellers

Let's balance Dozy's original comment.

SNP minister Jeane Freeman stands up in Holyrood and states So, I can confirm to the chamber that in our assessment model there will be *no contracting* with the private sector. 

 Read more at: https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...stem-1-4431787

She has now contracted the private sector to continue carrying out assesments where needed as she has realised the private sector are not doing a bad job and are actually offering good value for money! You couldn't make it up!!   But her party supporters only heard the initial announcement as her U-turn never made the headlines

Ps If you look at a globe, you will see we are a tiny little island and I believe we are better sticking together

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## squidge

> Let's balance Dozy's original comment.
> 
> SNP minister Jeane Freeman stands up in Holyrood and states “So, I can confirm to the chamber that in our assessment model there will be *no contracting* with the private sector. 
> 
>  Read more at: https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...stem-1-4431787
> 
> She has now contracted the private sector to continue carrying out assesments where needed as she has realised the private sector are not doing a bad job and are actually offering good value for money! You couldn't make it up!!   But her party supporters only heard the initial announcement as her U-turn never made the headlines
> 
> Ps If you look at a globe, you will see we are a tiny little island and I believe we are better sticking together


That is not true. There is a commitment to never use private companies for the assessments. The approach taken by the Scottish Government remains the same - no u turn and no possibility of that happening. The legislation has only just been passed and no contracts for anything have been awarded.

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## Goodfellers

Sorry Squidge....I think you have  been mis-lead.

Can you provide evidence to back up your claim?

I am related to a PIP assessor in Inverness (employed by Independent Assessment Services...formerly ATOS) and contracts have been signed for several years, I suggest you search for PIP assessor jobs and you will find ATOS are still recruiting because they will continue to work for the Scottish govt.

Or try writing to Jeane Freeman MSP and try to get a straight answer from her. She will not deny assesments will still be carried out by private companies unless someone really objects. If you live in Caithness and object to an assessor visiting you at home you will have to travel to an assessment centre in Inverness at your own expense, and as most claimants claim they never leave the home I'm not sure how they will manage that.

Have attached letter back from Jeane Freeman

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## squidge

Ok, several points. 

Firstly there are indeed vacancies being advertised in Scotland - there are several. However these are for vacancies for the contract that is held by the DWP and not for the Scottish Government. 

Secondly, the contracts Independent Assessment Services have just now are with DWP, not with the Scottish Government

Next, those contracts for assessment Staff will need to continue, the Scottish Government will not take responsibility for Disability Benefits until 2021. In addition, the Scottish Government is not taking responsibility for ESA. ESA will have a requirement for assessments to be carried out by the Assessment service as they are done now and that will continue. 

Next, the letter you have attached says categorically that face to face assessments will be reduced as the evidence will be gathered from health care professionals it goes on to state the occasions when a face to face assessment might be required. At the request of the individual - that might be the case where someone has not had a medical consultation or had appointments with a professional. It also might happen where medical evidence disagrees or where the person is not happy with the decision that has been made. These assessments will be carried out by independent assessors who are not employed directly by the Scottish Social Security Service. 

The letter also states that no one will ever be forced in the Scottish system to undergo an assessment with a private company. 

That is quite categorical and Im unsure how you draw the conclusions you do from that letter. No assessments will be carried out  by private companies. 

Finally the new Scottish Social Security System is already advertising for staff to deliver the service. It will be delivered locally and people from Caithness will have a service in Caithness. There are already posts being advertised for senior staff based throughout Scotland including the Highlands and Islands. 

The reasons why I know this is because I have been involved in the consultations and design of this new system since the Smith Commission began to consult on the devolution of powers in 2014.  I was responsible for ensuring the Smith Commission took evidence from the voluntary sector in Inverness at the Highland Hospice. I have held a number of consultations on the new Social Security Service and fed back that information to the Scottish Government as part of my work for the third sector. I have attended a number of meetings with the Scottish Government and with Jeane Freeman herself. I have been involved in the experience panels where ordinary people are helping to shape the new system, sharing their experiences, helping to design the new service to put human rights at the heart of the new system and holding the Scottish Government to account for the work they are doing. I am also involved in scrutinising the legislation as part of some work I am doing for The Poverty Alliance and campaigning for changes and improvements. 

There are no contracts signed to provide assessments for the new Social Security Services and there are none being advertised on the contracts site. 

The commitment has been unequivocal - there will be no private companies involved in the assessment processes for the new Scottish Social Security Service. 

I hope that helps to put your mind at rest Goodfellers.

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## squidge

https://news.gov.scot/news/social-se...ty-assessments

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## Goodfellers

> https://news.gov.scot/news/social-se...ty-assessments


Interesting update.  Maybe you can help with this question.   This far north the health service struggle to recruit enough staff as it is. Where are the public service specialist healthcare workers needed to carry out assessments coming from? It appears the advisory body would like mental health specialist to assess mental health applicants who often have physical illnesses too so does that mean two specialists would be needed to assess properly?

I doubt the local doctors will have time to carry out assessments or fill out lengthy forms. 

I haven't read anything about how the government propose to address the people who make false/exaggerated/fraudulent claims. All of us who live in this part of the world know it happens. As a tax payer I would like to know my tax money is going to someone who deserves help, not someone who thinks it's easier than working.

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## orkneycadian

> All of us who live in this part of the world know it happens. As a tax payer I would like to know my tax money is going to someone who deserves help, not someone who thinks it's easier than working.


And not just your bit of the world - The whole of the country.  Way too many folk over here too who "simply can't undertake any kind of work, whatsoever, because of my condition" yet, manage a fairly busy life of socialising, hobbies and doing their own thing.  I never understand why "their condition" means they cant use a computer in a work environment (even teleworking from home), but yet they can run blogs, websites and You Tube channels.  They cannot work as a call centre operator (again teleworking as need be) due to their condition, but can maintain an extensive social network, both on and off the phone.

In these days of flexi working, remote working and folk who are able to run a complete business from an ipad from their livingroom, I am not sure what kind of disability is so debilitating that even the most disadvantaged cannot find some way to make a contribution.

Even if someone who says they cannot work because of their condition follows this up, objecting to my views, fair enough.  But it proves they can use a computer / ipad / phone.  Now, what would be to stop you using that ability in a form of employment?

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## orkneycadian

What happened to the bit about the 200m walk?

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## Goodfellers

I was giving too much information away and was asked to remove it, thought I had done it before anyone read it! Now had it pointed out that edit remains visable, so had to remove post. Blast have to be more careful next time

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## orkneycadian

> The new ones have logos such as Abuser, groomer, touch me up, Say nothing and keep your job,and "A nice place to warm my hands"  they can now join the old set which had Molester, Thief, Conman( or women) lLiar, and of course Unionist. Sick one and all . I don't  hear their supporters shouting now.  Let's see how many will put their name to this one. . .


If you change the word "Unionist" in the above post to "Seperatist", that rant sounds like it could be entirely aimed at an ex SNP first minister.

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## dozy

> If you change the word "Unionist" in the above post to "Seperatist", that rant sounds like it could be entirely aimed at an ex SNP first minister.


History would NOT side with you ,funny how the guilty alway try to turn themselves into victims . Never meet a Tory or unionist that was guilty of anything . Must be that Cotton Plantation Owners syndrome that see us all as protential cheap labour , slavery without the metal chains just financial ones .  Unionism will never make things better for anyone but themselves .  Time has come for a change and let us grow up unfettered . Being independent is not a bad thing it's just the change the brightest and forward thinking Scotland need . No more smelly , white ,pale and stale old unionist f--ts calling the tune when they have more than one foot in the grave . 
Move over you've had your go ,now just go . How do unionists  square the circle ,it's ok for them to leave the EU for a brighter tomorrow ,but how dare the F---in  scots, who do they think they are . Well Scotland in a country in its own right . Kneeing to a Westminster master says it all, it may be your unionist fantasy.

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## Fulmar

Do you remember that there was a Scottish independence referendum, dozy and what the clear result of that was? Fact is, 3 years ago, your fellow country people did not agree with your views.

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## Goodfellers

And an awful lot still do not agree with his views!

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## dozy

> And an awful lot still do not agree with his views!


It's terrible when rich white Westminster men use FEAR and TREATS to get the votes from the old . They stated that OAPs  would lose their pension , health service and the loss of the pound with affect  savings if they voted YES.  How we know it was ALL LIES ( that came from G Osborne )  What makes it worse is the unionist cheerleaders that supported the lies ,which go's to show how rotten that group is . What sort of low life would threaten  OAPs and use FEAR to win . You can't get a lower snake than that . Maybe they should stand closer to the  mirror next time to see what one of them looks like. 

when Scotland gets independence , will all the unionists leave and go where?

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## orkneycadian

> It's terrible when rich white Westminster men use FEAR and TREATS to get the votes from the old .


I agree.  Giving old folk sweeties all the time can't be good for those that still have all their own teeth.

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## Goodfellers

Hopefully this 'old' oap unionist tory supporter will be dead by the time Scotlands goes independent....ps I don't plan on shuffling off this mortal coil anytime soon

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## orkneycadian

Don't worry, it'll never happen.  And even it it did, Hollyrood would be begging on bended knee at Westminster after 18 months.

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## Gronnuck

After the debacle that is Westminster over the last five years, I have changed my view from a firm ‘No’ to a ‘Yes’.  The reasons are many but in 2014 Scotland was told that if we wanted to remain in the EU we would have to remain in the Union.  Well that worked well didn’t it!  Then there was Gordon Brown’s ‘Vow’ backed by the rest of the Westminster leaders…, they weren't particularly quick getting that up and running.
Scotland is big enough, rich enough and smart enough to stand on its own.  I can’t for the life of me understand why anyone would willingly hand over 70-80% of their earned income to the next-door neighbour to have them hand back a pittance and tell you how to spend it!
The more recent past has seen the evolution of a hostile immigration policy and a significant swing to the Right south of the border.  All this is being exacerbated by a predominately right-wing press controlled by London.  Scotland is better than that.
I don’t agree with everything the SNP does, but when Scotland gains its independence and we have an election the people of Scotland can chose our own path.

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## Goodfellers

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/13296
The IFS (independant group) doubt Scotland would be better off. We don't hand over all our cash and get a pittance returned. 
This group do not have an axe to grind either way.

Had Scotland gained independance in 2014 we would be in a mess now. SNP over estimated oil revenue massivly (how can they claim to want the greenest government in the world, yet base all their spending on oil revenues?)

The SNP leadership think Trump is an idiot, yet the SNP put taxes up for the very people Scotland needs, (teachers, nurses and doctors) and wonder why they struggle to recruit. The SNP are a one trick pony. Nigel Farrage is the English version of the SNP, but he admits he has no plans for running the UK other than getting us out of the EU. The SNP wont admit they have not got a clue about anything other than 'independance at any cost'. Scotland deserves better.

Someone still needs to explain why Scotland would want to re-join the EU. If all the reports about Scotlands dire finances are untrue and we will become a land of milk and honey, then why would we not want to spend all that money on our schools, health service, roads, and social care? Rather than handing over a huge fee each year to fund those services in foreign lands?

Sort Scotland out first, then think about handing over billions to the EU.

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## Gronnuck

Polite request *Goodfellers;* please reduce the size of your font, you come across as shouting.

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## Goodfellers

Will do,...when you get to my age, a bigger font is easier than finding your glasses. Point taken in the spirit it was meant! :-)

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## Gronnuck

Thanks *Goodfellers*. Unfortunately I haven't got time to address all the issues you raised immediately but I will get round to it.
There's a fairly comprehensive explanation of Scottish income tax at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46546874  I have a vested interest since one of my sons is a Police Officer and his wife is a Teacher. so they are affected by any increase in Income Tax.  However, compared to England, they benefit from no prescription charges, reduced child care costs, lower council tax charges and when our Grandchildren are of an age. no tuition fees.  It’s very much a case of ‘swings and roundabouts’.
Catch you later.

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## Fulmar

Your rage, dozy, does not change the fact that the referendum result last time was a resounding 'no'! If there is another vote then we will see what the view is now but meantime, you'll just have to live with it. For your information, older people were/are quite capable of rational analysis of the arguments and reaching their own conclusions and do not need to be patronised by you.

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## orkneycadian

> I can’t for the life of me understand why anyone would willingly hand over 70-80% of their earned income to the next-door neighbour to have them hand back a pittance and tell you how to spend it!


Thanks to the Barnett formula, I understand we hand over a pittance and get more back to spend?  Largely on vanity projects, buying shoes and manicures for SNP Lord Provosts, etc.

Meanwhile, within the EU, we hand over a Kings ransom, and get about half of it back.

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## Gronnuck

*Goodfellers,* Hi again.  In response to your issue with the EU.  In the EU Scotland would be negotiating its position with the rest of Europe directly as equals, not diluted as ‘part of the UK’.  In fact, our position would be stronger.  Scotland currently has six MEP’s, but with independence Scotland would have 12 or 13, the same as Denmark, Ireland, and Finland.  Scotland has often lost out in European negotiations because what is best for Scotland has been ignored by Westminster.
When Ted Heath (former Conservative Prime Minister) was negotiating the EU membership rebate for the UK he told the negotiators to consider that Scottish fishing “in the wider UK context, must be regarded as expendable”.
Scotland doesn’t get its proper share of European funding.  The Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) funding gives Westminster a lump sum which is then shared throughout the UK, but we don’t get what we are due.  Independent member states of the EU have benefitted from the European Union’s principle that no member state should receive less than the minimum EU average payment rate of €196 per hectare.  Had Scotland been an independent member state when the latest CAP round was agreed, this principle would have meant gaining an additional €1 billion of support between 2014 and 2020.  If we received the legal EU minimum, we would get £325 million more but if that figure was the EU average the amount goes up to £652 million – and that is every year.
It is the same situation with fishing. As a result of being a low priority for the UK in EU negotiations, Scotland receives just 1.1% of European fisheries funding despite landing 7% of the European Union’s fish.
Of course we have to be concerned about what Scotland’s contribution to the EU would be.  There’s an interesting article at https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48256318  In it, it says, “Each country pays the same proportion of its national income to the EU budget”  So if we imagine Scotland’s economy to be similar in size to that of Denmark, Ireland and Finland it would make Scotland a net contributor.
A small cost for Scotland to be an equal partner in such a huge trading bloc.

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## Gronnuck

I take your point regarding the dichotomy regarding the exploitation of oil and gas, and the fact that Scotland is committed to meeting its green targets.  However, the two are not incompatible.
There have been significant increases in investment in the oil industry in recent years and new technology is making further development of the oil and gas industry possible.  If customers didn’t buy Scotland’s oil they would buy it elsewhere.
In an independent Scotland the tax revenues from oil and gas reserves, which currently go to the UK Treasury, would remain in Scotland.  At present Scotland’s oil revenues contribute to government expenditure across the entire UK.  All the oil income goes to Westminster, along with all the other tax revenues, and Westminster decides how much money is allocated to the Scottish Parliament.
Oil and Gas UK. (oilandgas.co.uk) estimate that there are up to 24 billion barrels of oil still to be extracted from the North Sea with a wholesale value of up to £1.5 trillion.  That’s more than ten times our likely share of national debt.
Scotland is already a net exporter of electricity, with huge recent growth in the deployment of renewable generation.  About 4% of the annual power consumption of England and Wales is met from Scotland.  This figure is tending to rise as Scottish renewable power continues to grow faster than in England and as English nuclear plants are closed.
A leading think tank, Reform Scotland (reformscotland.com) says, “Even using conservative assumptions on prices, Scotland could earn £2B a year exporting electricity and become a world leader in new-energy technology”
Some facts About Renewable Energy in Scotland:
It currently supports over 11,000 jobs.  It powers the equivalent of every house hold in Scotland.
It provides 25% of Europe’s tidal potential and 10% of its wave potential.  It operates 25% of Europe’s offshore wind resources.  More wave and tidal power devices are being tested in the waters off Scotland than in any other country in the world!
Finally, Renewable Energy in Scotland is on target to meet all of Scotland’s electricity needs, and 11% of its heat requirements by 2020.
The Scottish government has an interesting website detailing the facts regarding renewable energy production in Scotland https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20170104134816/http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Business-Industry/Energy/Facts

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## Gronnuck

Good afternoon *Goodfellers.*  I agree the IFS make a good point but they currently adhere to the status quo in that they assume an Independent Scotland will continue to contribute to UK defence, foreign policy, and projects that do not involve Scotland.
An independent Scotland would keep its oil revenue rather than it go to the Treasury in Westminster.  An independent, Nuclear weapons free, Scotland would not have to contribute to a weapon system it did not vote for.  Let there be no mistake while the submarines belong to the UK; the missiles do not, they are leased from America and the costs are increasing annually.
An independent Scotland would not have to contribute to Westminster vanity projects like London Crossrail, HS2, Heathrow expansion etc.  Instead it could spend money on Scottish infrastructure projects as it did with the £1.35B Queensferry Crossing.
Currently the Scottish government spend includes mitigating against the bedroom tax, the rape clause, and other abhorrent tory policies that intentionally hurt people.

If, as the main stream media would have us believe, Scotland was being subsidised by Westminster do you really think the 533 English constituency MPs would tolerate that and not have raised a complaint by now?  They might have an occasional jibe at Scotland, yet so far none of them have tried to instigate ridding the UK of a ‘subsidy Scotland’.
I suggest we don’t listed to London’s main stream media.  Scotland is big enough, smart enough and rich enough to be a normal country.

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## Gronnuck

Can I just point out to those who use the 2014 Indyref to argue against any further referenda that a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then.  The world has changed, the UK has changed.  The tory government and the MSM have vilified our sick, disabled and disadvantaged.  Scotland is better than that.

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## Fulmar

Can I just point out that this is what I actually wrote!
_If there is another vote then we will see what the view is now but meantime, you'll just have to live with it._

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## orkneycadian

> Can I just point out to those who use the 2014 Indyref to argue against any further referenda that a lot of water has passed under the bridge since then.  The world has changed, the UK has changed.  The tory government and the MSM have vilified our sick, disabled and disadvantaged.  Scotland is better than that.


Can we have another Hollyrood election on the same basis please?  I am fed up of the lot that's in there.  A lot of water has passed under the bridge since 2016.  The world has changed (Turkey are knocking 7 bells out of Syria), the UK has changed.  The SNP minority government have neglected our sick, disables and disadvantaged by focusing all their efforts on indyref, whilst abandoning basic services, and spending cash on manicures and hairdo's.  Scotland is better than that.

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## Gronnuck

*Orkneycadian* much as I despair at Turkey’s bombing seven sorts out of the Kurds in northern Syria, I doubt even an independent Scotland could much about it other than condemn Turkey with everyone else.  Regarding your post #36, I’ve pulled together some of the things that our SNP administration has done in recent years.  While I don’t agree with everything they do they are the only political party that isn’t tied to and bound by a Westminster HQ. 
The Scottish Government led by the SNP announced an increase of around £400m for the Scottish health budget in 2017/18.  This is equivalent to 43% of the overall Scottish budget in 2016/17.  This is the highest ever figure for yearly government spending on the NHS in Scotland.  You can find details of annual spending on the NHS in Scotland in the General Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) report.
In August 2017 the Scottish Government started issuing Baby Boxes to new mothers, taking inspiration from a similar scheme in Finland.
In their 2017 manifesto, the SNP pledged they would outlaw Hydraulic fracturing or fracking unless “it can be proven beyond any doubt that there is no risk to health, communities or the environment”.  A subsequent vote in the Scottish Parliament to support an outright ban passed 32 votes to 29, with SNP members abstaining.
Paul Wheelhouse energy minister announced in 2017. the moratorium would be extended indefinitely, effectively banning the practice.
Same-sex marriage was passed into law in Scotland in 2014 after The Marriage and Civil Partnership (Scotland) Act 2014 received Royal Assent.
The number of hours of free childcare was extended to 600 hours in 2014 and included three and four year olds and a percentage of two year olds.  Details are governed by the Children and Young People (Scotland) Act.  They have more ambitious plans for 2020.
After a gradual reduction of Prescription Charges over the preceding four years the Scottish Government abolished Prescription charges in 2011.  This had been an SNP pledge during the 2007 Scottish Parliament elections.  The party’s manifesto promised they would “immediately abolish prescription charges for people with chronic health conditions, people with cancer, and people in full time education or training.  We will phase out prescription charges for the rest of the population by 2012.”
On the 1st of April 2008 the Small Business Bonus Scheme was introduced to gives relief on property taxes for businesses which have a rateable value of £35,000 or less.  This means many small businesses in Scotland pay no rates on their premises.
They’ve built or refurbished 750 schools since they came to office in 2007.  
Annual Scottish Government housing statistics show that there have been 70,851 homes completed under the Affordable Housing Supply Program  since 2007.
More recently the setting up of the Scottish National Investment Bank aiming to provide investment to help with “innovation and accelerating the transformation to a low carbon, high-tech, connected, globally competitive and inclusive economy”.
There is also free personal care for the elderly.
Protecting the elderly and disabled concession bus pass.
Getting rid of the Bridge Tolls.
The building of the Queensferry Crossing.
The completion of the Borders Railway, carrying forward the concept initiated by Donald Dewer’s administration years before.
At the same time the SNP administration has worked to mitigate the worse excesses of Westminster government policies, ie. the Bedroom Tax, the Rape Clause, protecting the Education Maintenance Allowance, protecting Scotland’s NHS from privatization, increasing nursing bursaries and keeping free tuition for nurses while both were scrapped in England.
I could go on.  The SNP is the only party working for Scotland and not bound by and taking instructions from its London bosses.  After Independence the people of Scotland can have a General Election and choose whatever shade of politics they want.

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## Goodfellers

Just read your posts. Not sure where you get your financial information regarding Scotlands wealth. Scotlands GDP is about $200B (if I have calculated properly) That puts us on a par with Portugal, Romania and Greece, rather than Ireland, Finland and Denmark. That would make not make Scotland a net contributor, so I'm not sure the EU (Germany in particular) would want yet another country taking money out of the pot.https://www.statista.com/statistics/...land-annually/ http://statisticstimes.com/economy/e...ies-by-gdp.php

A favourite saying of drug dealers to 'justify' their trade is "If they didn't buy from me,  they would buy from someone else". Scotland cannot justify selling (or even extracting) oil if it truly wants to 'green'.

I regard Trident as a very expensive insurance policy.  If the native Americans had tanks when the cavalry turned up on horseback, the USA would be a different place. We need the biggest baddest deterrent available as the world is an unpredictable nasty place. I've been on a V boat and seen Trident up close, it's an awesome weapon and the population of Helensburgh would be sad to see the Navy leave. I'm happy to pay for it. By voting to remain part of the UK, Scotland has voted for Trident and it's replacement. 

Yes, we do have free education, prescriptions and various other bits, so why can't we recruit enough teachers, nurses and doctors? Newly qualified graduates tend to migrate south, why is that?

If Scotland had no oil, would it be pushing for independance? The UK has supported Scotland for three hundred years, now the SNP thinks it can stand on its own, it wants to be free of Westminster. What happens when the oil runs out or is worthless? Go begging the UK to take us back? 

I'm a unionist and always will be as things stand. Sorry to all the nationalists.

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## Goodfellers

THe EU produce this information on who pays/gets what .............https://www.europarl.europa.eu/exter....html#portugal

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## Goodfellers

One of the problems I have with SNP supporters is the 'it's all Westminster's fault' but then use spin to make the SNP look good. For example 
"The Scottish Government led by the SNP announced an increase of around £400m for the Scottish health budget in 2017/18"  The SNP played no part in the increase. It was due to the Barnett formula 

https://fraserofallander.org/scottis...ottish-budget/ 
 The Fraser of Allender Institute are often quoted by the SNP govt, so therefore can be trusted.

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## Goodfellers

Small business rate relief.....Introduced in England three years before Scotland followed suit.

Businesses would only be exempt if RV is less than £15,000, so clever spin to make uneducated readers think it might be £35,000

The English figure is £12,000.


Back to the SNP's 'green' credentials. Experts know that population of the Earth is the biggest threat to the health of this planet. Yet, the SNP are actively encouraging the population to have babies! Baby boxes, grants for just about everything. These should all stop. Only have a child if you can bring it up as you would wish. Why have children when you yourself are in 'poverty'. doesn't make sense. Governments around the world should be actively discouraging child birth.

Same sex marriages became legal in England a year before Scotland, so not sure why you are giving the SNP any credit there.

You mentioned all the schools the SNP have built, what about the 331 that are rated as in poor condition?

Lets also give the SNP credit for the highest drug death rate in Europe, maybe even the world (per capita).

Alcohol deaths are 54% higher in Scotland compared to the rest of the UK. Lets see the SNP boasting about that figure.

I'll grant there are a few positive things on the list, but overall I personally think the SNP have been bad news for the majority of Scots, that's why only 977,569 voted for them out of 3,988,490 eligible voters  24.5% 

The next general election will be very interesting, although I doubt any Scottish party will get enough support to change anything. Nicola Sturgeon actually said something I agree with,she pointed out that the SNP has previously won a majority of Scottish seats in a general election on a minority of the votes. This was something I pointed out to Dozy a while ago, you might have all the MP's, MSP's but you may only represent the minority, a flawed voting system. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-50002776

I just hope it doesn't get too nasty

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## Gronnuck

Good morning Goodfellers, in response to your no.38
In 2013 Scotland’s GDP was $248.5B.  Every source I have looked at quote percentages which indicate modest and consistent growth on par with the rest of the UK.  It could be argued growth to be a better indication of a countries potential.  My own estimates put the figure at nearer $275B. The 2018 Scottish GDP per person was on par with the rest of the UK according to GERS.
Regarding potential; Scotland has only 8.3% of the UK's population.  But it does have...
32% of the land area
61% of the sea area
90% of the fresh water. (There is more fresh water in loch Ness than In all the lakes in England and Wales combined!)
65% of the natural gas production
96.5% of the crude oil production
47% of the open cast coal production
81% of the untapped coal reserves
62% of the timber production
46% of the total forest area
92% of the hydro electric production
40% of the wind wave and solar energy production
60% of the fish landings
30% of the beef herd
20% of the sheep herd
9% of the dairy herd
10% of the pig herd
15% of the cereal holdings
20% of the potato holdings
100% of the Scotch Whisky industry
70% of Gin manufacturing
Scotland has huge potential alongside a...
17 billion pound construction industry
13 billion food and drink industry
10 billion business services industry
9.3 billion chemical services industry
9.3 billion tourism industry
7 billion financial services industry
5 billion aeroservice industry
4.5 billion whisky export industry
3.1 billion life sciences industry
Scotland still has 350 million pounds worth of textile exports
Scotland has 25% of Europe’s wave and wind energy potential.
And finally, we are blessed to have 1.5 trillion pounds - £1,500,000,000,000 worth of oil and gas reserves.  All these figures are available online.
The extraction of oil and gas while developing green technologies is not incompatible, lots of other countries are managing to do so.  We can look to our Scandinavian neighbours who are doing it.  The UK is doing it.  The transition, like anything worthwhile, takes time.
You’re right Trident is a very expensive insurance policy but do we really need it?  Who are our enemies?  Do we really envisage mass annihilation as way to resolve issues?  We should be deeply suspicious of the American controlled Trident program.  The missiles are refitted and exchanged in America, any that are tested are done so under the supervision of the American manufacturers and the US Navy.  The guidance and control systems are American and the UK government is not allowed to modify, adjust or replace them.  It could be argued that it cannot be described as a British Independent Nuclear weapon.  In the event of Scotland achieving Independence Helensburgh will become home to a Defence Force fleet.
The reason we cannot recruit enough teachers, nurses and doctors is more to do with the workplace politics than with anything else.  Teachers and nurses, I have dealings with are not entirely comfortable with the management systems that interpret policy and govern their working life.  So, yes a proportion will seek to work elsewhere, not necessarily in the UK though.
Your question, “If Scotland had no oil, would it be pushing for independence?”  The simple answer is Yes.
You appear to promote the view that the UK has supported Scotland for three hundred years.  Does that Westminster support include the Highland Clearances?  Does that Westminster support include the deindustrialization of England and Scotland without regenerating anything in its stead?
I get the impression that you believe that it is normal for another country to run, rule, and manage its neighbour.  The union was supposed to be a union of equals yet there is plenty of evidence to show that there is nothing equal about the arrangement, then or now.  
I am disappointed at your effrontery when you say that when the oil runs out or becomes worthless, the people of Scotland will go begging the UK to take the country back!  Since the end of WW2 over 140 countries have gained independence, not one has asked to be returned to its former overseer.
I admit that I was an ardent unionist; in 2014 I voted an emphatic ‘NO’.  I had spent 26 years in the military, served all over the world and I was proud of the UK and proud to be British.  However my experience of September 2014 and analysing what happened I realised the people of Scotland had been comprehensively lied to.  Project ‘Fear’ sponsored by Westminster and the MSM was based upon deceit and lies.  The promised ‘Vow’ was carefully diluted almost out of existence. 
Then there was Brexit.  The people of Scotland voted to remain and subsequently have been ignored.  Since then we’ve seen the rise of British nationalism south of the border where racism and hatred have become more prevalent.       
I’m a Scottish ‘Normalist’, it is normal for a country to be independent.

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## Gronnuck

Good morning again *Goodfellers*, I’m not going to respond to your no.41.  I don’t want our debate to degenerate into a ‘he said, she said’ scenario.  Yes, there are faults on both side of the argument and we could bounce ideas to and fro for an eternity, but time is precious.  I respect your choices as I hope you will respect mine.
Best regards.

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## Goodfellers

Hi Gronnuck. I'm all for keeping arguments civil (as much as possible, I know we can all get a bit heated when on our soapboxes). Wikipedia does quote your GDP figure for 2013. If you want accurate up to date figures, Scottish Gov do produce them.

*In 2018, the latest estimate of the annual value of Scotlands onshore GDP in current prices (i.e. not adjusted for inflation) is estimated at £163.3 billion, or around £29,900 per person.  
Including oil and gas extraction in Scottish waters, Scotlands GDP is estimated at £179.5 billion, or around £32,900 per person. GDP per head for the UK as a whole was around £31,900.  

https://www2.gov.scot/Resource/0054/00548034.pdf

*The three countries you compared Scotland to have much higher GDP per capita, which is why I don't think the EU will be too kenn to accept Scotland as a member.

http://statisticstimes.com/economy/e...per-capita.php

*
*

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