# General > General >  Racists? Who Says?

## M Swanson

You might like to check out this study by World Value.

For years, we've been vilified for being racists by the Britain-haters and wielders of the big stick, but the map shown in the link clearly states otherwise. Interesting results.


http://elitedaily.com/news/world/this-map-reveals-the-most-racist-countries-in-the-world/

Off to enjoy lunch with some good buddies. HAGO all.  ::

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## mi16

Not really, it indicates that the Chinese are the most honest nation.

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## Flynn

> You might like to check out this study by World Value.
> 
> For years, we've been vilified for being racists by the Britain-haters and wielders of the big stick, but the map shown in the link clearly states otherwise. Interesting results.
> 
> 
> http://elitedaily.com/news/world/this-map-reveals-the-most-racist-countries-in-the-world/
> 
> Off to enjoy lunch with some good buddies. HAGO all.


The survey is about nations, not individuals.

I'd like to see the results of them asking the same questions of all UKIP members and voters.

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## Alice in Blunderland

Its not how you talk the talk its how you walk the walk they say. We can all say one thing for a survey.

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## macadamia

The most used survey is the most effective one of all. It owes nothing to science, counting or numbers, and is always 100% accurate.

"All Scots love jelly/smoking makes you smell like a fish/protestants have three legs. I know this is true, because all my friends agree with me.

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## andrew.bowles30

i have lived in and out of caithness but i can tell you all there is no better place and people and i love it he needs a hard luck at his own party and english im from yorkshire and love it but i made my home in caithness and have lots of mates and found that in caithness i was welcomed so much so ukip go away

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## sam09

If that`s the case mi16, ask them what they (The Chinese) are doing to the people of Tibet.

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## mi16

> If that`s the case mi16, ask them what they (The Chinese) are doing to the people of Tibet.


The average chinaman is doing nothing to the Tibetans.

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## Flynn

> The average chinaman is doing nothing to the Tibetans.


"Chinaman'? Seriously? You do realise it is 2013?

It's Chinese person, or Chinese man, or Chinese woman, or just Chinese.

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## mi16

> "Chinaman'? Seriously? You do realise it is 2013?It's Chinese person, or Chinese man, or Chinese woman, or just Chinese.


Whatever......

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## billmoseley

> i have lived in and out of caithness but i can tell you all there is no better place and people and i love it he needs a hard luck at his own party and english im from yorkshire and love it but i made my home in caithness and have lots of mates and found that in caithness i was welcomed so much so ukip go away


 i like you moved here from Yorkshire and have lived in many places in the Uk but i can say with all honesty that Caithness and Sutherland are the friendliness people i have ever met.

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## orkneycadian

> "Chinaman'? Seriously? You do realise it is 2013?
> 
> It's Chinese person, or Chinese man, or Chinese woman, or just Chinese.


I guess "Weeker" is now politically incorrect as well...  ::

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## Flynn

> Whatever......


It's a racist and derogatory term.

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## mi16

> It's a racist and derogatory term.


Whatever.....

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## mi16

> I guess "Weeker" is now politically incorrect as well...


Or Scotsman, Englishman, Irishman or frenchman

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## Flynn

> Or Scotsman, Englishman, Irishman or frenchman


Calling someone a 'chinaman' is as derogatory as calling others mick, paddy, taig, snout etc.

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## orkneycadian

> Or Scotsman, Englishman, Irishman or frenchman


I would feel hugely insulted if someone referred to me as their fellow countryman.  Especially if they were a toonie!

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## orkneycadian

> Calling someone a 'chinaman' is as derogatory as calling others mick, paddy, taig, snout etc.


I'll be seeing Paddy tonight, and will ask him if he feels insulted or otherwise offended in being called that for so long.  He'll probably have some quip in return involving sheep, but I suspect we'll still be friends by the end of the night....

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## squidge

Banter between friends is a completely different thing. My husband calls my son "stinker" and vice versa but he wouldnt use that term to a man in the street.

Chinaman is not the same as englishman, irishman or scotsman. That would be chineseman.

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## mi16

> Banter between friends is a completely different thing. My husband calls my son "stinker" and vice versa but he wouldnt use that term to a man in the street.Chinaman is not the same as englishman, irishman or scotsman. That would be chineseman.


When I worked there in 2007 they referred to themselves as chinamen.
perhaps thats why they are the most racist in the world eh.
Anyways if the mods seem me racist then I'm sure they will be along with the ban hammer

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## squidge

I dont think you are racist mi16, its just an old fashioned term with derogatory overtones which is out of place today, thats all.

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## billmoseley

I think people should stop be so sensitive about a few names. I have been called al-sorts in my time. If you don't rise to them folk usually get fed up with saying it. Any most is just said in banter and fun something which some people as sadly lacking lately.

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## Flynn

> I think people should stop be so sensitive about a few names. I have been called al-sorts in my time. If you don't rise to them folk usually get fed up with saying it. Any most is just said in banter and fun something which some people as sadly lacking lately.


Would you call an afro-crribean person 'chalky'? Where does 'banter' end and insult and discrimination begin? The problem with 'banter' is it's only 'banter' when it is between friends and equals and both parties know it is only 'banter'. If anyone I didn't know as a friend use a derogatory Irish nickname to me, they will be unconscious before they end their sentence. I grew up seeing name calling become discrimination become persecution become violence, and I will not tolerate it now, whether it is discrimination dressed up as 'banter' or not.

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## billmoseley

yes i would and have but i see you like violence to sort things hmmmmmmmm says a lot about you. Violence should be used to protect.

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## orkneycadian

> If anyone I didn't know as a friend use a derogatory Irish nickname to me, they will be unconscious before they end their sentence.


  ::  ::  :: 

Well, that sums that up fairly well I think.

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## Flynn

> yes i would and have but i see you like violence to sort things hmmmmmmmm says a lot about you. Violence should be used to protect.


You would call an afro-carribean person, to their face, 'chalky'? Do you have any comprehension of how racist that is?

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## mi16

> Would you call an afro-crribean person 'chalky'? Where does 'banter' end and insult and discrimination begin? The problem with 'banter' is it's only 'banter' when it is between friends and equals and both parties know it is only 'banter'. If anyone I didn't know as a friend use a derogatory Irish nickname to me, they will be unconscious before they end their sentence. I grew up seeing name calling become discrimination become persecution become violence, and I will not tolerate it now, whether it is discrimination dressed up as 'banter' or not.


Hmm yet you condone violence on another human being to the point that they lose consciousness?It's a strange old world. Surely walking the other way wod be the better option.

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## Flynn

> Hmm yet you condone violence on another human being to the point that they lose consciousness?It's a strange old world. Surely walking the other way wod be the better option.


Not with bigots.

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## orkneycadian

http://forum.caithness.org/showthrea...64#post1023064
_Last month I celebrated St David's Day and St Paddy's Day with many English, Welsh, and Scots friends._


I hope your English Welsh and Scots friends have recovered from their injuries after being so erroneous to be so rascist in your company.....  And I do hope that no one on here who is not one of your friends takes offence at your remarks about St Patricks Day.

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## mi16

> Not with bigots.


So anyone that is intolerant of your views should be beat unconscious then?

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## Alice in Blunderland

> I dont think you are racist mi16, its just an old fashioned term with derogatory overtones which is out of place today, thats all.


I also dont think mi16 is coming across as racist and agree its like the word Paki. Pakistanis themselves use the word however it has become unacceptable in current climates due to the very reason Flynn describes 'banter/name calling becomes discrimination becomes persecution becomes violence'




> I think people should stop be so sensitive about a few names. I have been called al-sorts in my time. If you don't rise to them folk usually get fed up with saying it. Any most is just said in banter and fun something which some people as sadly lacking lately.


I cant agree with this one having watched my child 'being sensitive' to a few names as you would call it and being persecuted by the few who thought it was fun to engage in a little name calling it wasn't a pleasant experience. 




> Would you call an afro-crribean person 'chalky'? Where does 'banter' end and insult and discrimination begin? The problem with 'banter' is it's only 'banter' when it is between friends and equals and both parties know it is only 'banter'. If anyone I didn't know as a friend use a derogatory Irish nickname to me, they will be unconscious before they end their sentence. I grew up seeing name calling become discrimination become persecution become violence, and I will not tolerate it now, whether it is discrimination dressed up as 'banter' or not.


This is so true.

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## Flynn

> So anyone that is intolerant of your views should be beat unconscious then?


That is not what I said.

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## billmoseley

I spent some of my later teenage years working in Birmingham mixing with many races. yes i  called a black man chalky and i was called white honky in turn not offence wasn't taken on either side. The place this took place Longbridge car plant on of the most militant places in Britain at the time. A name doesn't mean you can't respect that person.

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## M Swanson

Yes, it is. It's what you do, Comrade Flynn.

I lived in cosmpolitan London for years and at varying times, I've been called all sorts. "Honky Tonk; snowdrop, whitey, pommie, wigger .... you name it and guess what? I couldn't give a damn. Why should I? I'm proud of who I am and it's hardly my fault if others don't perceive it that way, is it? That's their problem and I'm not responsible for it. My father was always called Jock and never had a problem with it. In fact, I think he was proud for folks to know he was a Scot. Too darned right. 
Funny you should challenge folks to call a black man "Chalky." I've been called it, but how is chalky white relevant in this example? 

And why is it not acceptable to abbreviate the word Pakistani, but Brit's okay? BTW. Your Christian name isn't Michael, or Patrick, is it?  :Grin:

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## Flynn

I love how the right-wingers here are proving the point that UKIP etc. are populated by racists and bigots.

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## M Swanson

> I love how the right-wingers here are proving the point that UKIP etc. are populated by racists and bigots.


And I love how extreme left wingers are still trying to peddle the racist card. Still, if that's all you've got Comrade Flynn, I suppose there's nowhere else to hang your hat. Desperate times and my how UKIP are breathing much needed fresh air into the political establishment in Britain. No wonder CF is so obsessed! Bring it on, pal.  :Wink:

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## Flynn

> And I love how extreme left wingers are still trying to peddle the racist card. Still, if that's all you've got Comrade Flynn, I suppose there's nowhere else to hang your hat. Desperate times and my how UKIP are breathing much needed fresh air into the political establishment in Britain. No wonder CF is so obsessed! Bring it on, pal.


Really? The first time he's questioned properly Farage threw a tantrum and hung up the phone. And that was just a local BBC Scotland radio host. He'll have no chance if the likes of Paxman get hold of him. Farage is a joke, UKIP as an entity gets funnier every day as racists and ignoramii make the headlines, and the whole country are laughing at them.

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## Alice in Blunderland

> And why is it not acceptable to abbreviate the word Pakistani, but Brit's okay?


It seems that over time it has been deemed unacceptable due to the descriptive words that are normally teamed up with it. As a child we often stated we were nipping to the Paki shop on the corner which was an acceptable term. Due to changing climates and the fact that it is more often used as name calling and discriminatory it has led to the way it is today.

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## M Swanson

> Really? The first time he's questioned properly Farage threw a tantrum and hung up the phone. And that was just a local BBC Scotland radio host. He'll have no chance if the likes of Paxman get hold of him. Farage is a joke, UKIP as an entity gets funnier every day as racists and ignoramii make the headlines, and the whole country are laughing at them.


Yes, really! "Questioned properly?"  ::  All he received was a series of biased, sneering comments dressed up as questions. The BBC just doing what it does best, courtesy of the fee payers who should be receiving unbiased, politically neutral interviews and news items. When did we last enjoy that? Too long ago for me to remember. 

Anyway, I must awa'. Hope someone else comes along shortly to feed your obsession.  :Wink:

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## squidge

Times move on and just as at one time it was deemed to be acceptable to use the terms chalky or darkie or paki or cripple or educationally sub normal it was also acceptable to stick a sign up which said "no blacks irish or dogs". We know better today. We know that in days past those on the receiving end felt they had to smile and laugh it off. Today we understand that these words masked much racism and discrimination endemic in society at the time these names were in common use. Paki is often excused by people other than pakistanis as a harmless shortening of pakistani. When you have had it daubed three feet high in paint on your wall along with "go home" it tends to appear a bit more threatening. I dont believe that everyone who uses these terms are expressing racist views, often it is age related, older people use the terminology which they used to use years ago; sometimes it is ignorance, people living in areas without much diversity can be ignorant of how offensive these words truly are. We see yet again the suggestion that this is somehow a left wing extreme conspiracy. Its actually just good manners and polite behaviour.

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## mi16

> I love how the right-wingers here are proving the point that UKIP etc. are populated by racists and bigots.


Who mentioned ukip

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## mi16

Anyway now we have been throught the world of expletives to describe races. Can anyone explain why referring to a man from China as a Chinaman is so derogatory and /or racist in the context that I used earlier?

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## cptdodger

> Anyway now we have been throught the world of expletives to describe races. Can anyone explain why referring to a man from China as a Chinaman is so derogatory and /or racist in the context that I used earlier?


If people consider that to be racist, then it follows the title of this film must be racist as well -


" The Englishman Who Went Up a Hill But Came Down a Mountain"


I might be wrong, but I do not remember protests regarding the title, when this film was released.

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## Neil Howie

Well they would say that....

but does "Africa is a country" have a point?  From the Cartography of bull**** article





> Although the results dont pass the sniff test in the first place, I took a look at the data  as well, in an effort to identify the exact problems at play. It turns  out that the entire exercise is a methodological disaster, with problems  in the survey question premise and operationalization, its use by the  Swedish economists and by Fisher, and, as an inevitable result, in  Fishers additional interpretations. The two caveats that Fisher offered  in his post  first, that survey respondents might be lying about their  racial views, and second, that the survey data are from different  years, depending on the country  only scratch the surface of what is  basically a crime against social science perpetrated in broad daylight.  They certainly werent enough to stop Fisher from compiling and posting  his map, even though its analytic base is so weak as to render its  message fraudulent.

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## ducati

> "Chinaman'? Seriously? You do realise it is 2013?
> 
> It's Chinese person, or Chinese man, or Chinese woman, or just Chinese.


Missed that memo, can you linky please. Don't see the problem maself. Same as Scotlandman or Englandman

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## Oddquine

> It's a racist and derogatory term.


Is it?  I'd have said Chinaman was more a sexist term myself if I was going to be po-faced and judgmental......but then I think PC to the UK level is absolute and utter bollocks.

The only difference in 2013 from past days is we now have a plethora of quangos and charities defining racism, racist words and racist expressions.....simply in order to keep themselves in jobs.   Don't you think they could be doing something more useful with their time and our money than riding their high horses?

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## Flynn

Don't take my word for it, just Google 'chinaman racist' and you'll see it is considered so internationally.

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## mi16

> Don't take my word for it, just Google 'chinaman racist' and you'll see it is considered so internationally.


Where you will find a plethora of racist chinamen.Anyway I'm off for a chicken supper.

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## Flynn

Here's the top result: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinaman_(term)

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## orkneycadian

> http://forum.caithness.org/showthrea...64#post1023064
> _Last month I celebrated St David's Day and St Paddy's Day with many English, Welsh, and Scots friends._
> 
> 
> I hope your English Welsh and Scots friends have recovered from their injuries after being so erroneous to be so rascist in your company.....  And I do hope that no one on here who is not one of your friends takes offence at your remarks about St Patricks Day.


Comrade Flynn seems to have glossed over the fact that in one thread, when it suits him, he refers to St Patrick as St Paddy, but in another thread, suggests that the use of the word "Paddy", is derogatory and racist, and warrants that the utterer of such a word be beaten into a pulp, whilst in yet another thread, he states that anyone who is proven beyond all doubt to be guilty of murder, should not have a finger laid on him, just in case he might happen to be innocent.

Sorry Comrade Flynn, you have the honour of being only number 2 on my Ignore List on the grounds of utter hypocrisy, bordering on dangerous tendencies.

Now, where were we....

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## M Swanson

> Don't take my word for it, just Google 'chinaman racist' and you'll see it is considered so internationally.


Although it would be of little, to no interest to you Comrade Flynn, I wonder how many Chinese actually take offence at the word Chinaman? Perhaps you could point us towards  a few relevant complaints. I would have thought that the average citizen is much more concerned with their appalling human and animal rights records. 

I ask this, because I have two West Indian friends who abhor the "racist" nonsense aimed at dividing people in the name of left wing, social engineering.

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## M Swanson

> Who mentioned ukip


That would be Comrade Flynn. He's fixated and mentions UKIP at every opportunity. I wonder how many have taken membership on the strength of his publicity campaign?  :Grin:  I know that the Edinburgh fiasco has had a positive outcome in the rapidly rising level of support for Nigel. But Flynn's doing his bit too!

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## mi16

> Although it would be of little, to no interest to you Comrade Flynn, I wonder how many Chinese actually take offence at the word Chinaman? Perhaps you could point us towards  a few relevant complaints. I would have thought that the average citizen is much more concerned with their appalling human and animal rights records. I ask this, because I have two West Indian friends who abhor the "racist" nonsense aimed at dividing people in the name of left wing, social engineering.


As stated earlier in my experience natives of china referred to themselves as chinamen and they said they spoke chinglish.

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## squidge

Here you go again.... The average citizen is much more concerned with their appalling human and animal rights record. So you cant be both concerned about treating people properly AND concerned about China's human rights issues? Or does China's political performance somehow excuse us from behaving properly? Just like in your world you cant be concerned about the appalling welfare reforms and yet still aspire to do well and own your own home. 

Mi16 your chinese colleagues can say what they like about themselves, just like orkneycadians pal Paddy can enjoythe banter with his friends and M Swanson and her West Indian Friends can bemoan the creeping tide of communist and trotskyite enemies of the state. There are NO words that must never be used or spoken but there are words  which can cause offense and are better not used in situations which are outwith our own comfy world. 

There can be much nonsense spoken about Diversity but why would you persist on using a term which is deemed to be derogatory and unpleasant when you dont have to.

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## Flynn

> Although it would be of little, to no interest to you Comrade Flynn, I wonder how many Chinese actually take offence at the word Chinaman? Perhaps you could point us towards  a few relevant complaints. I would have thought that the average citizen is much more concerned with their appalling human and animal rights records. 
> 
> I ask this, because I have two West Indian friends who abhor the "racist" nonsense aimed at dividing people in the name of left wing, social engineering.


Of course you do.

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## Flynn

> I know that the Edinburgh fiasco has had a positive outcome in the rapidly rising level of derision for Nigel. But Flynn's doing his bit too!


Fixed that for you.

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## Flynn

> As stated earlier in my experience natives of china referred to themselves as chinamen and they said they spoke chinglish.


Your experience being ordering a takeaway from your local restaurant over the phone once a month?

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## Flynn

> Here you go again.... The average citizen is much more concerned with their appalling human and animal rights record. So you cant be both concerned about treating people properly AND concerned about China's human rights issues? Just like in your world you cant be concerned about the appalling welfare reforms and yet still aspire to do well and own your own home. There can be much nonsense spoken about Diversity but why would you persist on using a term which is deemed to be derogatory and unpleasant when you dont have to.


Because right-wingers like M Swanson and ml16 have to make themselves feel superior to others somehow, and the easiest way they can do that is by using derogatory nicknames and terminology for people not like them.

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## mi16

> Your experience being ordering a takeaway from your local restaurant over the phone once a month?


At least read the posts.

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## Oddquine

> Because right-wingers like M Swanson and ml16 have to make themselves feel superior to others somehow, and the easiest way they can do that is by using derogatory nicknames and terminology for people not like them.


To be fair, Flynn.....isn't that just what you are doing as well..making yourself appear superior to those who use perceived derogatory/racist terms because they don't weigh every word on the scales of PC acceptability before writing them.  

Some of us older people still tend to use the words we always have, because they were not meant as a racist epithet then and are not now. Care to explain how adding loads of words into the verboten category is going to do anything to combat _real_ racism? I don't see/hear Farage using those kinds of words..and I don't remember the BNP hierarchy using them out loud either.....does that make _them_ any less racist? 

Chinaman is archaic, certainly..and by some Chinese (predominantly in America because of historical connotations) may be viewed as derogatory....but it is not racist, it denotes the old description of a native of China.....chink or chinkie is _racist_. Bandying the racist description about, aimed at individuals with no intention of being racist, on fora, is more to do with po-faced posters clapping themselves on the back than any knowledge of intention.  Too many folk have too little to do in life that they can turn a thread about racism into one on semantics.

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## Flynn

> To be fair, Flynn.....isn't that just what you are doing as well..making yourself appear superior to those who use perceived derogatory/racist terms because they don't weigh every word on the scales of PC acceptability before writing them.  
> 
> Some of us older people still tend to use the words we always have, because they were not meant as a racist epithet then and are not now. Care to explain how adding loads of words into the verboten category is going to do anything to combat _real_ racism? I don't see/hear Farage using those kinds of words..and I don't remember the BNP hierarchy using them out loud either.....does that make _them_ any less racist? 
> 
> Chinaman is archaic, certainly..and by some Chinese (predominantly in America because of historical connotations) may be viewed as derogatory....but it is not racist, it denotes the old description of a native of China.....chink or chinkie is _racist_. Bandying the racist description about, aimed at individuals with no intention of being racist, on fora, is more to do with po-faced posters clapping themselves on the back than any knowledge of intention.  Too many folk have too little to do in life that they can turn a thread about racism into one on semantics.


They aren't 'perceived' racism they _are_ derogatory and racist.




> "Care to explain how adding loads of words into the verboten category is going to do anything to combat _real_ racism?"


Because their continued use condones racism. It's that drip drip drip of people saying "It isn't _really_ racist to use those words" that make it gradually acceptable, and that eventually becomes a torrent of intolerance. It's in the same category as "I'm not racist/homophobic/sexist… but…" 
What starts out as "chalky", or "chinaman", or as supposed 'banter' very soon leads to societies being permeated by persecution and discrimination, of it being ok to vilify 'the other' on the basis of ethnicity, or sexual orientation, or gender, or age, and so on.

This isn't just supposition, I've seen it, I had to live with it for two thirds of my life.

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## M Swanson

> They aren't 'perceived' racism they _are_ derogatory and racist. 
> 
> So, Comrade Flynn, produce any racist post that I have submitted to the Org? And while you're at it, try and provide us with a link to complaints from the Chinese regarding the use of the word Chinaman, as requested. Just another example of being offended on behalf of unidentified others, that so dominates this 'racist' debate. How that word has lost it's impact; largely because too many people have received the label, whilst not harbouring any racist principles. Twerp!  
> 
> Because their continued use condones racism. It's that drip drip drip of people saying "It isn't _really_ racist to use those words" that make it gradually acceptable, and that eventually becomes a torrent of intolerance. It's in the same category as "I'm not racist/homophobic/sexist but" 
> What starts out as "chalky", or "chinaman", or as supposed 'banter' very soon leads to societies being permeated by persecution and discrimination, of it being ok to vilify 'the other' on the basis of ethnicity, or sexual orientation, or gender, or age, and so on. 
> 
> More sanctimonious bilge! Isn't it odd that 'racism,' is only perceived to be the behaviour of white people? It isn't and if, as you claim, you have lived in a multicultural society for two thirds of your life you would know that to be true. Take a look at this link, concerning a British Asian, Yasmin Alibhai-Brown. It may be over 10 years old, but is still as relevant today as it was then. The worst 'racism' I've ever witnessed, was between those of West Indian origins and Asians. Of course, this isn't good news for you Comrade. The word 'racism' is all you've got to use as a weapon, but it's had it's day.
> 
> This isn't just supposition, I've seen it, I had to live with it for two thirds of my life.


We pretend to be united, but racism festers among the ethnic minorities - Yasmin Alibhai-Brown - Commentators - The Independent

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## M Swanson

> To be fair, Flynn.....isn't that just what you are doing as well..making yourself appear superior to those who use perceived derogatory/racist terms because they don't weigh every word on the scales of PC acceptability before writing them.  
> 
> Some of us older people still tend to use the words we always have, because they were not meant as a racist epithet then and are not now. Care to explain how adding loads of words into the verboten category is going to do anything to combat _real_ racism? I don't see/hear Farage using those kinds of words..and I don't remember the BNP hierarchy using them out loud either.....does that make _them_ any less racist? 
> 
> Chinaman is archaic, certainly..and by some Chinese (predominantly in America because of historical connotations) may be viewed as derogatory....but it is not racist, it denotes the old description of a native of China.....chink or chinkie is _racist_. Bandying the racist description about, aimed at individuals with no intention of being racist, on fora, is more to do with po-faced posters clapping themselves on the back than any knowledge of intention.  Too many folk have too little to do in life that they can turn a thread about racism into one on semantics.


A very fair post OQ. My only query would be in your words, "isn't that what you're doing as well?" I would ask you to highlight any post I have written which contains "derogatory/racist terms."

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## Flynn

> We pretend to be united, but racism festers among the ethnic minorities - Yasmin Alibhai-Brown - Commentators - The Independent



Please quote any post where I said racism was particular only to white people.

Since you like to assume what others are saying, I will do the same for you. I'll assume you are saying, "Look, there are racists among other ethnicities, so it's ok for UKIP etc. to be racist".


Well, you're wrong, because racism is wrong, no matter what the ethnicity of the racist. 

Mind you, the article does raise a tempting comparison, is Farage Britain's Idi Amin?

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## squidge

> We pretend to be united, but racism festers among the ethnic minorities - Yasmin Alibhai-Brown - Commentators - The Independent


Racism is not a white only phenomenon ... Of course it isnt. No one is saying that WHITE people should not use derogatory language. No one shpuld. Derogatory language does not identify a racist but the casual acceptance of this language creates a hiding place for racism. In the same way that we see the casual labelling of the unemployed as workshy idlers, or the disabled as lying fraudsters can lead to society seeing an underclass of undeserving people worth nothing, so can the acceptance of derogatory language lead to inequality and racist behaviour. These things create a place for the worst of the worst. They create a situation where society says we do not care, we are not bothered about you or you or you and within that attitude lurks the seeds of division, inequality and yes, racism.

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## M Swanson

> Please quote any post where I said racism was particular only to white people. Give us a treat, Comrade. Show us one of your posts when you ever mention racism amongst ethnic minorities. As you haven't, to the best of my knowledge, then we all know what conclusion to draw. 
> 
> Since you like to assume what others are saying, I will do the same for you. I'll assume you are saying, "Look, there are racists among other ethnicities, so it's ok for UKIP etc. to be racist".  More nonsense. 'Racism,' can be found in "all political parties, races, creeds and colours." I've proved that holds true for the Labour Party, as it does for them all, to include UKIP. So, "I'll assume you are saying, it's okay," for everyone else to be racists, but not UKIP. Never mind, you'll win one, one day, Comrade. 
> 
> 
> Well, you're wrong, because racism is wrong, no matter what the ethnicity of the racist. So, whoever has said it isn't? Apart from possibly you, who only writes about it being a problem with white people. 
> 
> Mind you, the article does raise a tempting comparison, is Farage Britain's Idi Amin? n. Pathetic! Groan.


BTW. I wonder if you could give me the instructions for removing unwanted banners, please? Apparently, "two people are spying on me." LOL

----------


## Flynn

> _and if, as you claim, you have lived in a multicultural society for two thirds of your life you would know that to be true._


Try living in Londonderry throughout the 60s, 70s, 80s, and part of the 90s, as I did, then come back and tell me I don't know about discrimination and what it leads to.

----------


## Flynn

> _Give us a treat, Comrade. Show us one of your posts when you ever mention racism amongst ethnic minorities. As you haven't, to the best of my knowledge, then we all know what conclusion to draw._


I have spoken about racism. There isn't 'white racism, black racism, asian racism,' there is just racism or bigotry, or prejudice, or discrimination, whatever you want to call it. I had assumed you were intelligent enough to understand that.

----------


## M Swanson

> Try living in Londonderry throughout the 60s, 70s, 80s, and part of the 90s, as I did, then come back and tell me I don't know about discrimination and what it leads to.


I didn't mention "discrimination."  As we were discussing ethnic minorities, I referred to a "multicultural society."  Moving the goal-posts yet again, Comrade?

----------


## Flynn

> I didn't mention "discrimination."  As we were discussing ethnic minorities, I referred to a "multicultural society."  Moving the goal-posts yet again, Comrade?


You think discrimination is different to racism?

No wonder you vote UKIP.

----------


## M Swanson

> I have spoken about racism. There isn't 'white racism, black racism, asian racism,' there is just racism. I had assumed you were intelligent enough to understand that.


Ah! So you can't find any examples of you posting about vile racism, that mentions anyone apart from white people, then?  I thought that was the case. 

Off to lunch. Cheese and beetroot sandwiches today. Anyone want to join us?  :Grin:

----------


## Flynn

> Ah! So you can't find any examples of you posting about vile racism, that mentions anyone apart from white people, then?  I thought that was the case. 
> 
> Off to lunch. Cheese and beetroot sandwiches today. Anyone want to join us?


Yet again you make claims based on nothing. Let me have a go at that: You have not denied you are a card carrying nazi, so we can Swansonise that into you must therefore be a card carrying nazi. You also have not denied being an alcoholic, so we can Swansonise that into you post such rubbish because you are always blind drunk when at your computer.


And so on.

----------


## mi16

I


> They aren't 'perceived' racism they _are_ derogatory and racist.Because their continued use condones racism. It's that drip drip drip of people saying "It isn't _really_ racist to use those words" that make it gradually acceptable, and that eventually becomes a torrent of intolerance. It's in the same category as "I'm not racist/homophobic/sexist but" What starts out as "chalky", or "chinaman", or as supposed 'banter' very soon leads to societies being permeated by persecution and discrimination, of it being ok to vilify 'the other' on the basis of ethnicity, or sexual orientation, or gender, or age, and so on.This isn't just supposition, I've seen it, I had to live with it for two thirds of my life.


There must have been a lot of unconscious folk around you then.

----------


## macadamia

We all discriminate. We have words such as "love", "like" dislike", "care", "don't care" and "hate" to show that this is so. Most of us get through life keeping these discriminatory tools in some kind of subjective order. Where Flynn is at fault is in attempting to override these human traits, and trying to crowbar everybody else into what, for him, is a utopian society. But human nature is not like that. Northern Ireland is a good example, as is Syria, pre and post Saddam Iraq, and indeed most countries who have gone through hard times, wars, even genocides. Being fair to your fellow man is a gentle process of maturity, and is not available on the prescription of self-appointed and self-righteous social engineers.

The good example I bring was when High Wycombe library forbad the putting up of posters for a childrens' Christmas Card competition, on the grounds that it might upset the Muslim community.  This was reported in the Bucks Free Press, with the usual "outraged of Speen" comments column. For some reason, the local Imam's comments were largely ignored. He said, gently "Of course we have no objections to Christmas being celebrated. Christmas is important for the majority in this country we share, and it would be wrong of us to interfere with a great spiritual and family festival. We not only encourage the celebration of Christmas, but, wherever possible, we will join in with many of the celebrations".

I'd rather spend an hour or so with the Imam than I would with any of these blinkered know-it-all social engineers who have done little more than pile up hatred and resentment where none existed, and who take themselves and their edicts far too seriously.

It is definitely time to lighten up. The world's a pretty good place. Of course, if you want to find the darker side, that's there too. Where are YOU looking?

----------


## squidge

You are right macademia - there is much rubbish done in the name of "diversity awareness".  As for the world being a good place - yes - MY world is a good place but for many people - here in the UK - today -  it is not quite such a good place.  Whilst we need to lighten up we also need to be aware that not everyone is having a nice time.  We should be looking in the dark places and seeing what we can do to lighten them also.

----------


## TrulyRural

> You would call an afro-carribean person, to their face, 'chalky'? Do you have any comprehension of how racist that is?


To be honest Flynn, if you're going to be sanctimonious about offensive terminology, I would suggest you remove the word 'Afro' from your vocabulary as this is also a derogatory term. 'Afro' is a hairstyle! The correct term is African Carribean! In fact, if you want to get really nitpicky when referring to people that fall within this  ethnicity, the correct term would be African & African Carribean! Just a thought, toodle pip!

----------


## Alrock



----------


## orkneycadian

From Googling, there seems to be a significant number of Chinese Takeaways in the UK called "The Chinaman", or variants thereof.  You would think if they got so offended by the term, they would not call their restaurant or takeaway the same name.

----------


## billmoseley

time to leave this thread as it going nowhere. Always leave people with a smile on their face not hatred in their heart

----------


## Alice in Blunderland

[QUOTE=billmoseley;1028942]Always leave people with a smile on their face not hatred in their heart[/QUOTE


A very good statement.

----------


## Oddquine

> A very fair post OQ. My only query would be in your words, "isn't that what you're doing as well?" I would ask you to highlight any post I have written which contains "derogatory/racist terms."


 (Used the b and 2 gs word there..so am replacing it with swelp..hope that passes the censor)  Swelp me............everything I write isn't about you, M Swanson.......how arrogant is _that_ perception of your importance to my keyboard. 

Chinaman was said by mi16...or didn't you notice because you didn't say it?

----------


## mi16

> (Used the b and 2 gs word there..so am replacing it with swelp..hope that passes the censor)  Swelp me............everything I write isn't about you, M Swanson.......how arrogant is _that_ perception of your importance to my keyboard. Chinaman was said by mi16...or didn't you notice because you didn't say it?


However I challenge you to point out anything that I have posted that taken in the intended context is racist.

----------


## sam09

> The average chinaman is doing nothing to the Tibetans.


Not at all mi16 you said that " The chinese are the most honest nation" Collectively.

----------


## Oddquine

> They aren't 'perceived' racism they _are_ derogatory and racist.


Come on! Don't you mean in your opinion and those of people posting on forums who can see a hook to hang their "much  less racist than thou" post  on?   Maybe I'm weird....but I do rather think that Chinaman was, in American history, a common way of describing  the Chinese immigrants....different times, different language.....it is  perceived as derogatory, even racist now, not because it is not factual,  but because it was the Chinese equivalent of negro in the days when the  USA had what amounted to immigrant slaves from many nations and  practised legislative discrimination against them. I'd guess there would have been equivalent descriptions of the Irish, the Scots and the English immigrants  as well.

From your advice to google  "chinaman racist"....that produced the wiki page which said _While usage of the term Chinaman is nowadays strongly discouraged by Asian American organizations,the term has been used by English speakers of Chinese descent and others, without offensive intent,and has also been used as a self-referential archetype by authors and artists of Asian descent_. 

All the rest of the links on the next pages I could be bothered to  check out were American forums, inhabited by people like  you...non-Chinese speaking for the Chinese...which is what the bulk of  UK "racism" quangos are, us speaking for minorities because it makes us feel good...as in the  forbidding Christmas trees and nativity plays in schools so as not to  offend Muslims.  Look, Flynn....minorities with the loudest voices  dictate policy and opinion....feminists do it, pensioners do it, Muslims  do it, Jews do it, Gays do it etc.....the majority of every demography  tends to work on  the "sticks and stones" principle.....and tends to  take words said or written in the context of the post or  article.....something you don't appear too good at doing.  There are more people _outside_ the political lobby system our Governments take notice of than are members of the various entities within it...why would anyone not irrationally PC fixated assume the minority speaks for the majority in a democracy?  




> Because their continued use condones racism. It's that drip drip drip of people saying "It isn't _really_ racist to use those words" that make it gradually acceptable, and that eventually becomes a torrent of intolerance. It's in the same category as "I'm not racist/homophobic/sexist but" 
> What starts out as "chalky", or "chinaman", or as supposed 'banter' very soon leads to societies being permeated by persecution and discrimination, of it being ok to vilify 'the other' on the basis of ethnicity, or sexual orientation, or gender, or age, and so on.
> 
> This isn't just supposition, I've seen it, I had to live with it for two thirds of my life.


Flynn..which planet do you think you inhabit?  If there wasn't people like you saying to boaking level that racism was words without racist intention, and listing words the average, particularly older, punter, never thought _was_ equivalent to racism....would we be obsessing on forums at all....far less derailing a thread because you want to discuss semantics?   

Words can drip drip for eternity....they are only important to people who give them more credence than they deserve. I repeat what I said in my previous post, and you ignored part of (because you had no response?) _Care to explain how adding loads of words into the verboten category is going to do anything to combat real  racism? I don't see/hear Farage using those kinds of words..and I don't  remember the BNP hierarchy using them out loud either.....does that  make them any less racist?_ 

I have a nephew who is in the RE.....and who spent his _whole_ training time being called,  by instructors, Jock or Sweaty.  Is _that_ racism or banter? He sucked it up...and maybe the main problem in the UK today is that nobody is prepared to suck anything up that they think they can make money from/take offence at anymore. 

Given I am 65, I was, in my school days, a wee fat blob...and later a wee fat blob with specs, so I got "abuse", as you do from kids if you don't conform to what they consider the norm (ie them),......and my folks said to me...ignore them....would you want people who thought abuse was clever as friends anyway?  Nowadays, they'd maybe have had me suing the school because of bullying.

We are well past the stage of the likes of words defining racism....we are in an era where racism is* not* defined by words....because only the terminally brain-dead racist would use the verboten words...those racists with power don't, political entities aiming for power don't, the majority of those who use the verboten words are those who have been brought up using them...not as a racial epithet..but as normal usage.

Those of you born after the 1940s/1950s  maybe don't remember the Paki corner shop, the Chinkie takeaway, the Indian takeaway, the Tally chippie and/or icecream parlour ....but many of us do....and they were factual descriptions of the services available to us then. Have to say I never used the shorthand description.....but then I rarely used their services at all...but even now I know people twenty years younger than me who do use the shorthand descriptions.   That does not make them racist....but it _is_ a result of absorbing the usage of their parents.......so not a lot different to all those anti-protestants/anti-catholic/anti-gays/anti-immigrants etc.....a learned mindset .

So forgive me, Flynn...but just as I have never believed any Government can legislate to change attitudes.....though the legislation may well drive the attitudes underground, so the government can preen at its success......equally I don't believe that  producing lists of verboten words will do anything to change attitudes either.  The intelligent won't use them and joe public possibly might, without intending racism because they always have used them without intending racism....and forums like this may well, as this thread has...degenerate into a pointless exercise where the likes of you say an individual is racist and some of us (and not all Tory/UKIP voting right wingers)  pipe up that it ain't necessarily so unless you are so wedded to your PC opinion that you can't recognise shades of gray  in a rapidly changing world and language.

----------


## M Swanson

> Because right-wingers like M Swanson and ml16 have to make themselves feel superior to others somehow, and the easiest way they can do that is by using derogatory nicknames and terminology for people not like them.


You responded specifically to this post from Flynn.




> To be fair, Flynn.....isn't that just what you are doing AS WELL .......


 So, who does the "as well," apply to, if not mi16 and M Swanson as cited by Flynn?




> (Used the b and 2 gs word there..so am replacing it with swelp..hope that passes the censor)  Swelp me............everything I write isn't about you, M Swanson.......how arrogant is _that_ perception of your importance to my keyboard. 
> 
> Chinaman was said by mi16...or didn't you notice because you didn't say it?



I perceived no such thing, without justification.  How arrogant and nasty are you?

----------


## Oddquine

> However I challenge you to point out anything that I have posted that taken in the intended context is racist.


Where did *I* say *what* you said was _racist_?   Care to link me to anything at all..pretty please! 

Have to say, if you think anything I have posted up until now has dissed either you or M Swanson.....then that was not my intention....but I suppose if you are going to read a post in isolation, then what you take out of it is not necessarily what I actually said over a number of posts taken in context.

----------


## Oddquine

> You responded specifically to this post from Flynn.
> 
> 
> 
> So, who does the "as well," apply to, if not mi16 and M Swanson as cited by Flynn?
> 
> 
> 
> I perceived no such thing, without justification.  How arrogant and nasty are you?


So you didn't bother to read all my previous posts in this thread? Why am I not at all surprised, as I didn't mention you? 

I responded specifically to a specific post of Flynn's......which was..._Because right-wingers like M Swanson and ml16 have to make themselves  feel superior to others somehow, and the easiest way they can do that is  by using derogatory nicknames and terminology for people not like them. 

_Hence the "as well". Sheesh!   Why do you have a problem with my response to that post.   Wish that folk who post on forums would read the sodding forum before posting, so they can get their heads around context (if that won't of course stop them whining on the strength of one post!

----------


## Flynn

> Come on! Don't you mean in your opinion and those of people posting on forums who can see a hook to hang their "much  less racist than thou" post  on?   Maybe I'm weird....but I do rather think that Chinaman was, in American history, a common way of describing  the Chinese immigrants....different times, different language.....it is  perceived as derogatory, even racist now, not because it is not factual,  but because it was the Chinese equivalent of negro in the days when the  USA had what amounted to immigrant slaves from many nations and  practised legislative discrimination against them. I'd guess there would have been equivalent descriptions of the Irish, the Scots and the English immigrants  as well.From your advice to google  "chinaman racist"....that produced the wiki page which said _While usage of the term Chinaman is nowadays strongly discouraged by Asian American organizations,the term has been used by English speakers of Chinese descent and others, without offensive intent,and has also been used as a self-referential archetype by authors and artists of Asian descent_. All the rest of the links on the next pages I could be bothered to  check out were American forums, inhabited by people like  you...non-Chinese speaking for the Chinese...which is what the bulk of  UK "racism" quangos are, us speaking for minorities because it makes us feel good...as in the  forbidding Christmas trees and nativity plays in schools so as not to  offend Muslims.  Look, Flynn....minorities with the loudest voices  dictate policy and opinion....feminists do it, pensioners do it, Muslims  do it, Jews do it, Gays do it etc.....the majority of every demography  tends to work on  the "sticks and stones" principle.....and tends to  take words said or written in the context of the post or  article.....something you don't appear too good at doing.  There are more people _outside_ the political lobby system our Governments take notice of than are members of the various entities within it...why would anyone not irrationally PC fixated assume the minority speaks for the majority in a democracy?  Flynn..which planet do you think you inhabit?  If there wasn't people like you saying to boaking level that racism was words without racist intention, and listing words the average, particularly older, punter, never thought _was_ equivalent to racism....would we be obsessing on forums at all....far less derailing a thread because you want to discuss semantics?   Words can drip drip for eternity....they are only important to people who give them more credence than they deserve. I repeat what I said in my previous post, and you ignored part of (because you had no response?) _Care to explain how adding loads of words into the verboten category is going to do anything to combat real  racism? I don't see/hear Farage using those kinds of words..and I don't  remember the BNP hierarchy using them out loud either.....does that  make them any less racist?_ I have a nephew who is in the RE.....and who spent his _whole_ training time being called,  by instructors, Jock or Sweaty.  Is _that_ racism or banter? He sucked it up...and maybe the main problem in the UK today is that nobody is prepared to suck anything up that they think they can make money from/take offence at anymore. Given I am 65, I was, in my school days, a wee fat blob...and later a wee fat blob with specs, so I got "abuse", as you do from kids if you don't conform to what they consider the norm (ie them),......and my folks said to me...ignore them....would you want people who thought abuse was clever as friends anyway?  Nowadays, they'd maybe have had me suing the school because of bullying.We are well past the stage of the likes of words defining racism....we are in an era where racism is* not* defined by words....because only the terminally brain-dead racist would use the verboten words...those racists with power don't, political entities aiming for power don't, the majority of those who use the verboten words are those who have been brought up using them...not as a racial epithet..but as normal usage.Those of you born after the 1940s/1950s  maybe don't remember the Paki corner shop, the Chinkie takeaway, the Indian takeaway, the Tally chippie and/or icecream parlour ....but many of us do....and they were factual descriptions of the services available to us then. Have to say I never used the shorthand description.....but then I rarely used their services at all...but even now I know people twenty years younger than me who do use the shorthand descriptions.   That does not make them racist....but it _is_ a result of absorbing the usage of their parents.......so not a lot different to all those anti-protestants/anti-catholic/anti-gays/anti-immigrants etc.....a learned mindset .So forgive me, Flynn...but just as I have never believed any Government can legislate to change attitudes.....though the legislation may well drive the attitudes underground, so the government can preen at its success......equally I don't believe that  producing lists of verboten words will do anything to change attitudes either.  The intelligent won't use them and joe public possibly might, without intending racism because they always have used them without intending racism....and forums like this may well, as this thread has...degenerate into a pointless exercise where the likes of you say an individual is racist and some of us (and not all Tory/UKIP voting right wingers)  pipe up that it ain't necessarily so unless you are so wedded to your PC opinion that you can't recognise shades of gray  in a rapidly changing world and language.


Still trying to justify your racism then.It doesn't matter if YOU don't think it's racist, it matters if people you're referring to think it's racist. As the person using the derogatory names it is not your choice. It is the choice of the people it affects.The fact is you have been told it's racist and derogatory, you've seen for yourself it's considered racist and derogatory, you now know it's racist and derogatory, so why would you want to continue being racist and derogatory?

----------


## theone

rac·ism  
/ˈrāˌsizəm/
Noun
1.The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as...
2.Prejudice or discrimination directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief.


By definition, a word can't be racist. There's no such think as a racist word.

People might take offence at some words, but that has nothing to do with predjudice or discrimination.

We'd have to ban all adjectives and many nouns if the right to not be offended was enforced critically.

----------


## Oddquine

> Still trying to justify your racism then.It doesn't matter if YOU don't think it's racist, it matters if people you're referring to think it's racist. As the person using the derogatory names it is not your choice. It is the choice of the people it affects.The fact is you have been told it's racist and derogatory, you've seen for yourself it's considered racist and derogatory, you now know it's racist and derogatory, so why would you want to continue being racist and derogatory?


I'm not racist, though I won't deny that I don't like some non-Scots individuals (mostly English/Yorkshire) and a few Scots individuals that I know personally (though I suppose not liking some Scots wouldn''t make me racist even if I were to call them names))...though I know you will undoubtedly respond with "you would say that wouldn't you"!   But over my lifetime..I have found, as a general rule of thumb...that those most virulently vociferous at recognising  and "outing" racism tend to be closet racists themselves.   ::

----------


## Oddquine

> Still trying to justify your racism then.It doesn't matter if YOU don't think it's racist, it matters if people you're referring to think it's racist. As the person using the derogatory names it is not your choice. It is the choice of the people it affects.The fact is you have been told it's racist and derogatory, you've seen for yourself it's considered racist and derogatory, you now know it's racist and derogatory, so why would you want to continue being racist and derogatory?


Chinaman in the UK is derogatory to some..not racist. I don't know where you live.but I ain't in the USA!

----------


## mi16

> Where did *I* say *what* you said was _racist_? Care to link me to anything at all..pretty please! 
> 
> Have to say, if you think anything I have posted up until now has dissed either you or M Swanson.....then that was not my intention....but I suppose if you are going to read a post in isolation, then what you take out of it is not necessarily what I actually said over a number of posts taken in context.


my apologies Oddquine, when i typed YOU (and in hindsight I can see how it appears) I meant the royal YOU as in ther org, not you personally.

----------


## mi16

> Because right-wingers like M Swanson and ml16 have to make themselves feel superior to others somehow, and the easiest way they can do that is by using derogatory nicknames and terminology for people not like them.


Ok Flynn lets rewind a touch here, can you please point out where I have used a degrogatory nickname in an attempt to make myself appear superior to anyone?

----------


## mi16

Radio Station in racial slur shocker. 
The word Chinaman was used on Radio Clyde on Saturday 18th May, the authenticity of a taped discussion was being debated and one party said and I quote "if that is not real then I am a Chinaman and so are you".
Amazingly the station is still on air and to date I have not seen anything on the news about an outcry from the Chinese communities, no burning effigies, no political protesting, heck not even a cheep from the resident victim and serial offended Flynn.

----------


## macadamia

What a problem! When somebody who embraces political correctness wants to argue that black is white, he has several problems. To do that, he has to discriminate between black and white, ensure that there are no negative connotations surrounding that part of the argument which is deemed "black", nor positive connotations surrounding that part of the argument which is deemed "white". Also, he needs to be seen not to be favouring "white" and "black" by giving either of them precedence. All he can do is state the case for "black" before he states the case for "white", and make a point of adding the fact he has chosen to do this in alphabetical order, rather than order of precedence. 

Once these conditions are met, he may then proceed to discuss the conditions which ensure that black is indeed white.

However, in doing so, he is implicitly favouring the "whiteness" of his arguments against the "blackness".

Thus, his argument becomes unsustainable in PC terms. He will not have a pot in which to micturate.

Surely a case of the pot calling the kettle differently coloured with negative connotations but not "black" because that's non PC

"Sticks and stones may break my bones
  But words come back to haunt me"

Power to the People!

----------


## John Little

Well I'll be a Dutchman's uncle!

----------


## macadamia

Who does this remind you of (snigger)?


'I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't — till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'
'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
'When *I* use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you *can* make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

----------


## John Little

It reminds me of any internet forum - anywhere and at any time.

And sometimes I just cannae be bothered wi it.

----------


## rob murray

Yep agree, spot on !

----------


## orkneycadian

Seems like being called a Jock (in 2010) is no grounds for racism

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...olleagues.html

----------


## Neil Howie

> Seems like being called a Jock (in 2010) is no grounds for racism


If I can expand on your summarising of that article, it would be if the tribunal found that there was a causal connection between his flying assessment and the alleged racist comments.  

Capt Maughan didn't help his cause by going to the press rather than follow proper procedures - three earlier grievances were thrown out as he had not followed the BA complaints procedure.

And it wasn't just about being called a Jock (nothing wrong with that imho).  It was about receiving abusive letters: 'Come Separation, will all Jocks f. off to that Welfare State (paid for by English middle classes)??? Please say yes.' 

As noted in earlier posts "Who does this remind you of snigger"  context is everything.  




> Mr Maughan, who lives in Edinburgh, said he was on another trip when a  flight officer complained to him that there were too many Asians living  in Britain. 
> 'The captain turned to me and said: "I don't suppose there are many of them up your way." 
> 'I replied: "Well, there's my wife." After that, they had the decency to fall silent,' he said. 
> 'There is a canteen culture of racism, especially between pilots, where they use gross racial terms.'


Perhaps his motivation was political (previous candidate for Scottish parliament), or for racial equality, or self-publicising, or a request for early retirement, or all of the above!

----------


## PeteSeeker

> Banter between friends is a completely different thing. My husband calls my son "stinker" and vice versa but he wouldnt use that term to a man in the street.
> 
> Chinaman is not the same as englishman, irishman or scotsman. That would be chineseman.


Yet Englandman, Irelandman and Scotlandman don't sound bad at all.  :Smile:

----------


## macadamia

I object to the ending "-ish" when describing a people. "-Ish" has a subtextual meaning of "a bit like, but not quite the full Monty" So, "Scotlandman" means "full blooded Scots gentleman, proud and erect, claymore swinging in the breeze as he necks a giant dram and a kilo of porage oats with salt", whereas "Scottish man" means "nearly a real Scotlandman, but with droopy socks, a blunt dirk, drinking Babycham, eating canapes, and wearing underpants underneath his pastel-coloured kilt made of rayon, with an M&S clutch bag as a sporran".

----------


## squidge

What does scotsman mean then macademia

----------


## macadamia

A rather turgid newspaper  :Wink:

----------


## DunnetKnowe

> I object to the ending "-ish" when describing a people. "-Ish" has a subtextual meaning of "a bit like, but not quite the full Monty


That's utter grammatical nonsense.  'ish' is appended to a country name (or any pronoun) in order to create a reflexive pronoun, not an adjective.

----------


## macadamia

Oh dear. You thought that was serious.

----------


## DunnetKnowe

> Oh dear. You thought that was serious.


No. Just thought it was typically ignorant.

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## macadamia

"Typically" implies some reasonable familiarity with my writings. It is also a word much used by the inarticulate when they wish to express frustration, without having the linguistic means to to so. as in "(raise eyes heavenwards, say 'tut', then 'typical!").

If you read very, very carefully, the context of my prior remarks is one of light-heartedness, within which framework I felt I had the freedom to indulge myself in a little verbal horseplay. You have decided to take issue with what I have written as a point of grammar, and, as you see it, its correction to suit your estimable standards. I hereby endow you with the Pedant's Revolt Trophy - A large, silver bust, showing a face which is limp. self-satisfied, and humourless. There is an inscription on the leaden base which commends your endeavours, such as they are - "floccinaucinihilipilification", which is, as a scholar so steeped in the language as yourself  will surely recognise, "the art of estimating as worthless". You have engaged in this pointless art so well you have become its very representative on earth.

Begone to your cave of self-appointed superiority! There, raise syntactical points with yourself until you, too, become aware of the greatest levelling adage on the planet

"Nobody likes a smart Richard". (We stand in fear of the Moderator, but I feel he would not be unkind on this occasion!)

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## rich62_uk

To paraphrase my eloquent friend '' shut up you know it all ''  :Smile: .

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## John Little

Engländer, Schottländer, Chinesen, Deutschlander - wen kümmert das? Was macht es aus?

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## macadamia

"Schottländer " - ja, kann man doch sagen. Aber am besten nicht "Schrottländer" benutzen. Sonst gibst ja wat!

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## John Little

Jawohl meine klein Auslander!

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## Rheghead

here is some great advice for UKIP folk, when you are expressing discriminatory views, you can outwit your critics by accusing them of discriminating against your right to discriminate.

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## ducati

Discriminating used to mean you had taste and a penchant for the finer things in life. When did this change?

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