# General > Politics >  The good news if the SNP do get a landslide victory at the polls

## BetterTogether

Taking the every pundit is forecasting an SNP landslide at the forthcoming general election, for those of us who are not lovers of the SNP it may be disheartening to see this happen, but there is good news in amongst the potential bad news. 

Given that the country has already voted on the referendum and shown that the majority do not wish for independence it would be unwise for the SNP to go back on their once in a lifetime once in a generation promises and foist another referendum on the population of Scotland, then they would be viewed as no better than the EU forcing vote after vote until the get the decision they want. 

In the meantime there will be all the new powers coming into force. 

They now have 5 long years to try maintain their momentum and given the realities of their failed policies so far by that time the population will be able to see them for what they are Political Charlatans and chancers of the highest order no longer able to blame anyone else but themselves for the problems.

I can sit back and relax knowing the SNP have hit the ceiling and the only way for them to go after this election is down.

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## YummyMummy

Dream on. Promises are broken all the time in politics. You should know that. 

We won't be needing another referendum at this rate. Cameron and Milliband have did all the hard work for us. I have spoken to German, American, Welsh, English, Canadian and South African visitors these last 2 days. Every one of them mentioned their alarm and disbelief at the anti-Scottish sentiment coming from our Westminster politicians. The world is watching.

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## sids

> I have spoken to German, American, Welsh, English, Canadian and South African visitors these last 2 days. Every one of them mentioned their alarm and disbelief at the anti-Scottish sentiment coming from our Westminster politicians.


How did it come up in conversation?

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## YummyMummy

Customers :Smile:  - genuinely interested in the UK General Election. Weather's rubbish, telly is on (NEWS channel) so they have a natter....

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## Alrock

> I can sit back and relax knowing the SNP have hit the ceiling and the only way for them to go after this election is down.


Hmmm, don't know about that, maybe they'll put some candidates up in England next election & get even more seats...  ::

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## theone

> I have spoken to German, American, Welsh, English, Canadian and South African visitors these last 2 days. Every one of them mentioned their alarm and disbelief at the anti-Scottish sentiment coming from our Westminster politicians. The world is watching.


Can you give examples of this "anti-scottish" sentiment?

Anti SNP is not anti-scottish.

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## YummyMummy

Totally agree. Anti-SNP is not anti-Scottish. I have no problem with anti-SNP in this democracy. Just like anti-UKIP and anti-Tory are not anti-English. 

You/me/visitors know the difference too and to suggest there has been no anti-Scottish sentiment (I am assuming in your request for examples) are, with respect, at best misguided and at worse disingenuous. One thing is for sure in this unpredictable political climate we all find ourselves in, if our international guests to Scotland have picked it up and are commenting on it, it's not just a few "whiney nats".

My sincere apologies if that is not what you meant.

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## badger

The English were not anti-Scottish until the referendum and the rise of the SNP which is so anti-English.  It's very sad.  I'm not impressed by the record of either government but that's no reason to break up the United Kingdom which must be stronger united than divided.

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## dozy

On one in their right mind would stay in an ABUSIVE relationship and Scotland has been abused for far to long. Why don't the English admit their poor treatment for all the small nations and get some therapy. This would have gone a long way in helping heel the wounds, but Westminster use BULLY  BOY tactics instead. As they say "you reap what you sow" . Scots mainly like most folk except the ones that would have you on your knees. Slavery and servitude comes in many forms and the oppressor never or rarely  admit to the wrong doings. England should wake up and see the world has changed (it's not WW2 or the 1966 World Cup) . Give Scotland in rightful place and join hands as equal friends and not master and servant and stop this programme of FEAR. Long gone are those days and let's leave them to history and go forward together, before the relationship ends in divorce . So let's be good friends , respectful of each other and celebrate the differences we have ,and no more BULLYING .

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## Sgitheanach

The Uk is finished the faster we get out of it the better . Independance at any cost.

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## Scout

> The Uk is finished the faster we get out of it the better . Independance at any cost.


 so you would like be Greece? bankrupt

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## cptdodger

Unless I missed something, on September the 18th 2014, the _majority_ of the country voted NO. Alex Salmond said - once in a generation. If Nicola Sturgeon decides to backtrack on that decision, then what else will the SNP backtrack on?

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## Sgitheanach

What happened to the VOW!!!!!! Backtracking lies corruption . Oh and I am not an snp member

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## cptdodger

I voted no, I am clearly not an SNP member, I would not waste a vote on them. I am British, then Scottish. I voted no purely because I do not want - ever - to see the UK broken up. The "vow" you are talking about had no sway with me, that's not the reason I voted no, I made up my mind in 1979, that I would never vote for independence. I do'nt care what excuse Sturgeon comes up with to hold another referendum, Salmond said - once in a generation, which generally means between 20 to 25 years.

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## Rheghead

> The English were not anti-Scottish until the referendum and the rise of the SNP which is so anti-English.  It's very sad.  I'm not impressed by the record of either government but that's no reason to break up the United Kingdom which must be stronger united than divided.


Absolute rubbish.

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## Bystander1

> Absolute rubbish.


Certainly the comment is rubbish - typical of the turkeys voting for an SNP Christmas

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## Sgitheanach

I have never voted snp they are too polite

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## theone

> You/me/visitors know the difference too and to suggest there has been no anti-Scottish sentiment (I am assuming in your request for examples) are, with respect, at best misguided and at worse disingenuous.


I have no wish to misguided or not to be genuine.

I am just really interested to hear what anti-scottish sentiment from Westminster politicians caused 'disbelief' and 'alarm' to these visitors from abroad. 

Again, can you provide examples?

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## jockyplunck

who should we vote for????? the thing is if you vote for lib dem. you are voting for tory if you vote fro labour. you are voting snp. ukip i don't really know. the fact is politics is just another word for lie. they all promise the moon and the stars and give nothing they are only in it for themselves.by the way there is no need to reply this is just my opinion.

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## rob murray

> I voted no, I am clearly not an SNP member, I would not waste a vote on them. I am British, then Scottish. I voted no purely because I do not want - ever - to see the UK broken up. The "vow" you are talking about had no sway with me, that's not the reason I voted no, I made up my mind in 1979, that I would never vote for independence. I do'nt care what excuse Sturgeon comes up with to hold another referendum, Salmond said - once in a generation, which generally means between 20 to 25 years.


Given last nights wipe out where a monkey with a kilt could have won a scottish seat what now, surely there has to be a referendum as the SNP "vowed" never to supprt the tories, well cameron doesnt need their support, and taking the SNP at their word, they cannot live with tory planned austerity, so referendum 2 has to be back on, Boris JOhnson is slevering on about moving to a more federalist system in an attempt at least to head of trouble, Osbourne has acknowledged the Scottish issue...but we wont be spared cuts or get any special treatment etc. Given the inevitability of a referendum and the likelihood of a yes vote ( last night for the SNP a vote was a vote for independance )  then Cameron could pre ept the situation by abolishing Barnet and replacing it with FFA asap, question is can Scotland then really go it alone and deliver an anti austerity programme or will they be faced off given inevitable financial shortfall ? The scottish SNP vote didnt bring Labour down, Labours ineptitude did. Interesting times indeed.

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## Scout

Here comes the first lies from the SNP, we will not talk to the Tories  ::    second if you vote for SNP the Tories will not get in  ::  Third Fracking, we will wait to see what the report says not ruled it out.

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## Fulmar

*The Scottish lion has roared this morning across the country'.* Quote from Alex Salmond.
What I would like to ask is does anyone know where this particular animal is normally kept and, more importantly, where was Alex this morning to have heard it roaring so plainly? I am intrigued. There are lions in England, of course, for instance in Trafalgar square but in Scotland? I thought at first that Alex had perhaps got muddled due to the lack of sleep and perhaps meant to indicate a Scottish Wildcat but aside from the fact that these are rare (so presumably that cannot be right), I believe that they make a sound rather more like a rather disconcerting growl or a yowl than a roar.
Perhaps The Scottish lion is kept in Edinburgh zoo near (but one hopes not too near) those other renowned inmates, Scotland's Giant Pandas? (It's to be hoped that it is part of a 'Pride' that is enjoying rather better breeding success than the black and white guys).
Whatever, I think it must be a great deal more interesting in the Salmond household just now than in mine, where a more usual question in these circumstances might run along the lines of 'have you shut the cat out'?
Oh and on the election, it seems by some figures quoted that 50% of the votes cast in Scotland were for the SNP which means that 50% were not and were in fact for the Union. So where we go from here is entirely fascinating.
But aside from that and given his proclaimed interest in the big cats, I am certainly hoping that Alex will be throwing his weight behind the campaign to re-introduce the Eurasian lynx to Scotland, an animal well known for its beauty, low profile and ability to help regulate the number of pests and that was formerly driven to extinction by our (Braveheart) ancestors but that does have an unarguable right to be here!

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## maverick

Alex Salmond gave an OPINION about Independence being once in a generation, the truth is if we held a referendum tomorrow, Independence would be declared the day after. The Scottish electorate have sent a clear and definitive message to Westminster, that the tories have no right to govern Scotland.

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## Scout

> *The Scottish lion has roared this morning across the country'.* Quote from Alex Salmond.
> What I would like to ask is does anyone know where this particular animal is normally kept and, more importantly, where was Alex this morning to have heard it roaring so plainly? I am intrigued. There are lions in England, of course, for instance in Trafalgar square but in Scotland? I thought at first that Alex had perhaps got muddled due to the lack of sleep and perhaps meant to indicate a Scottish Wildcat but aside from the fact that these are rare (so presumably that cannot be right), I believe that they make a sound rather more like a rather disconcerting growl or a yowl than a roar.
> Perhaps The Scottish lion is kept in Edinburgh zoo near (but one hopes not too near) those other renowned inmates, Scotland's Giant Pandas? (It's to be hoped that it is part of a 'Pride' that is enjoying rather better breeding success than the black and white guys).
> Whatever, I think it must be a great deal more interesting in the Salmond household just now than in mine, where a more usual question in these circumstances might run along the lines of 'have you shut the cat out'?
> Oh and on the election, it seems by some figures quoted that 50% of the votes cast in Scotland were for the SNP which means that 50% were not and were in fact for the Union. So where we go from here is entirely fascinating.
> But aside from that and given his proclaimed interest in the big cats, I am certainly hoping that Alex will be throwing his weight behind the campaign to re-introduce the Eurasian lynx to Scotland, an animal well known for its beauty, low profile and ability to help regulate the number of pests and that was formerly driven to extinction by our (Braveheart) ancestors but that does have an unarguable right to be here!


 Well said, I have never laughed so much.  ::

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## weeker2014

I took it to mean the rampant lion from the Scottish Royal Standard

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## davth

> Alex Salmond gave an OPINION about Independence being once in a generation, the truth is if we held a referendum tomorrow, Independence would be declared the day after. The Scottish electorate have sent a clear and definitive message to Westminster, that the tories have no right to govern Scotland.


Given that the Conservative party were democratically voted in to British Government by a huge margin, then yes, they have every right to govern Scotland.
Also Wales, Northern Ireland and England.

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## cptdodger

> Alex Salmond gave an OPINION about Independence being once in a generation, the truth is if we held a referendum tomorrow, Independence would be declared the day after. The Scottish electorate have sent a clear and definitive message to Westminster, that the tories have no right to govern Scotland.


  Obviously the Conservatives do have the right to govern Scotland as we are still part of the United Kingdom. Do'nt be too sure if a referendum was held tomorrow we would be Independent, remember it is all to do with the turnout of voters. As far as I know, 71.1% of people eligible to vote in Scotland voted, however in the Scottish Referendum, there was a turnout of *84.5%* in Scotland as a whole.

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## sids

The SNP may do a lot of roaring, but they're in opposition and they're not the main opposition party.

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## BetterTogether

Nice to see Nicola Sturgeon on the news today telling us how she intends to table a number of amendments to the smith commission how she intends to get the best deal for Scotland. 

Only problem is she has 56 MPs up against 330 conservative MPs after all the rhetoric about locking the Tories out during the election run up how much leeway does she think she will get or where will the ability of her 56 come to bear sufficient power to change the Tories point of view. 

The SNP cannot expect any favours from labour after the result and have done nothing to make their ascension into Westminster easy.

 Already the prime minister has made the ominous statement about making the system fairer. 

What with English votes for English matters, the conservatives probably going to take their opportunity to redress some of the boundary changes made by labour.
 I for one cannot see the SNP making the headway they think they will in Westminster if anything they may find themselves friendless and unable to make much difference in the larger bull pit of Westminster Politics. 

My opinion is the prime minister will implement the smith commission recommendations quickly so as to be seen to keep all the promises made to the Scottish people then tell SNP to mind their own business and leave them to make a mess of Scotland during the next five years. 

We already have the Scottish NHS in a mess falling standards of literacy and a police force not fit for purpose. Let alone the major gaff of centralising Fire and Police leaving them open to massive VAT bills. 

The SNP may well have just shot themselves in the foot by making enemies of everyone they need to force changes they want through.
We also have Mhari Black the youngest MP to get into Westminster but one of her first actions to the electorate that voted her in is to say she intends to finish her final year at uni, so much for putting the people first. 
Will Nicola be able to control the MPs that are going to Westminster or will they turn into a National Embarassment now they'll be facing the full scrutiny of the public and media.

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## BetterTogether

> The SNP may do a lot of roaring, but they're in opposition and they're not the main opposition party.


Small Lion with a chip on its shoulder,  Versus , Very  large bulldog with a possible grudge

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## sids

> Small Lion with a chip on its shoulder,  Versus , Very  large bulldog with a possible grudge


The grudges are more heard about from pub bores.

I'm sure even David Cameron doesn't imagine that there's a "punishment" that should be dished out to Scottish voters, for putting him into power.

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## BetterTogether

> The grudges are more heard about from pub bores.I'm sure even David Cameron doesn't imagine that there's a "punishment" that should be dished out to Scottish voters, for putting him into power.


I'm not suggesting there will be any punishment dished out to Scotland but I also don't believe the SNP will be the force they think they are. They've become the big fish in the small pond of Scottish politics now they are a small fish in the Big pond of UK politics

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## weeker2014

> Nice to see Nicola Sturgeon on the news today telling us how she intends to table a number of amendments to the smith commission how she intends to get the best deal for Scotland. Only problem is she has 46 MPs up against 330 conservative MPs after all the rhetoric about locking the Tories out during the election run up how much leeway does she think she will get or where will the ability of her 46 come to bear sufficient power to change the Tories point of view. The SNP cannot expect any favours from labour after the result and have done nothing to make their ascension into Westminster easy. Already the prime minister has made the ominous statement about making the system fairer. What with English votes for English matters, the conservatives probably going to take their opportunity to redress some of the boundary changes made by labour. I for one cannot see the SNP making the headway they think they will in Westminster if anything they may find themselves friendless and unable to make much difference in the larger bull pit of Westminster Politics. My opinion is the prime minister will implement the smith commission recommendations quickly so as to be seen to keep all the promises made to the Scottish people then tell SNP to mind their own business and leave them to make a mess of Scotland during the next five years. We already have the Scottish NHS in a mess falling standards of literacy and a police force not fit for purpose. Let alone the major gaff of centralising Fire and Police leaving them open to massive VAT bills. The SNP may well have just shot themselves in the foot by making enemies of everyone they need to force changes they want through.We also have Mhari Black the youngest MP to get into Westminster but one of her first actions to the electorate that voted her in is to say she intends to finish her final year at uni, so much for putting the people first. Will Nicola be able to control the MPs that are going to Westminster or will they turn into a National Embarassment now they'll be facing the full scrutiny of the public and media.


 56 not 46 - for someone who thinks they are so smart you should know better, unless it wasn't a mistake and you were trolling to get a rise?

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## BetterTogether

> 56 not 46 - for someone who thinks they are so smart you should know better, unless it wasn't a mistake and you were trolling to get a rise?


A simple typo . Doesn't makes a lot of difference, the end result doesn't really change much.

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## sids

> 56 not 46


Still not quite enough to visit the Queen and form a Government.

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## BetterTogether

> Still not quite enough to visit the Queen and form a Government.


Not enough to force their will upon the nation either or demand change and get it.

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## weeker2014

> A simple typo . Doesn't makes a lot of difference, the end result doesn't really change much.


Twice, thats quite a typo!

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## BetterTogether

> Twice, thats quite a typo!


Well if that's your only issue carry on, worse things happen at sea and all that !

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## BetterTogether

Yes of course I was entirely wrong 56 not 46 which boils down to a massive 4.5 % on the entire UK population voting for the SNP.

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## weeker2014

> Yes of course I was entirely wrong 56 not 46 which boils down to a massive 4.5 % on the entire UK population voting for the SNP.


Out of the seats available to the SNP they won 95% of them, out of the seats available to the Tories, they won 51% of them.  Out of votes cast available to the SNP they won 50% of them, out of the votes cast available to the Tories, they won 37% of them.  Those percentages say it all really.  So for all of those who say 50% of Scotland didn't vote for the SNP it pales in comparison to 63% of the UK not voting Tory.

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## davth

It doesnt really matter, DC is the PM, NS is not.
End of

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## BetterTogether

> Out of the seats available to the SNP they won 95% of them, out of the seats available to the Tories, they won 51% of them.  Out of votes cast available to the SNP they won 50% of them, out of the votes cast available to the Tories, they won 37% of them.  Those percentages say it all really.  So for all of those who say 50% of Scotland didn't vote for the SNP it pales in comparison to 63% of the UK not voting Tory.


You forgot the people in Scotland who didn't vote so that means less than 50% of the population of Scotland voted SNP and still means they are going to struggle to get their own way in Westminster.

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## weeker2014

> You forgot the people in Scotland who didn't vote so that means less than 50% of the population of Scotland voted SNP and still means they are going to struggle to get their own way in Westminster.


I did say of votes cast. In addition I used the same for the 37% which means even less of the population of the UK voted Tory. You can't change the stats, they are black and white.  :Smile:  - this is not an argument about independence, it is about MP's who stand up for Scotlands interests within the UK. Clearly that is what the Scottish electorate who voted chose. Even when you have lost this argument you still bang on wanting to accept the worst for Scotland. For the next 5 years we have 56 SNP MPs who want to stand up for us, put up and be happy or shut up as the election is over.  The SNP want to make positive change where they can and work with others, not to get their own way.

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## davth

DC will be hoping he has wee Jimmy Krankie aiding him in every election.Talk of a Labour /SNP coalition was enough to turn most of the English vote to the Tories, even though Milliband discounted it the electorate didn't take the chance.DC played a blinder and will be feet up in 10 Downing Streeet, laughing his socks off with a nice malt Whiskey.

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## BetterTogether

> I did say of votes cast. In addition I used the same for the 37% which means even less of the population of the UK voted Tory. You can't change the stats, they are black and white.  - this is not an argument about independence, it is about MP's who stand up for Scotlands interests within the UK. Clearly that is what the Scottish electorate who voted chose. Even when you have lost this argument you still bang on wanting to accept the worst for Scotland. For the next 5 years we have 56 SNP MPs who want to stand up for us, put up and be happy or shut up as the election is over.  The SNP want to make positive change where they can and work with others, not to get their own way.


Well I've yet to see any policy of the SNPs that is actually better for Scotland, centralising the police and fire services costing more money with the absurd levying of VAT which the SNP knew about but didn't bother to take into account. 

NHS Scotland failing just like in Wales but in Scotland there's no excuse of mass immigration putting extra stress on the services just poor fiscal management. Falling literacy rates amongst our children due to SNP incompetence. 

A state sponsored minder for every child, totally invading the private lives of average families instead of targeting the ones that actually require monitoring. 

A inept purchase of an airport which is just costing the taxpayers of Scotland millions instead of being allowed to fail.Schools being built but running behind time and over budget.

 Can you actually point out one policy of the SNPs that is working. 

All this from a party that claims to be working in the best interests of Scotland but doesn't seem to do anything successfully except create massive social divisions because of their nationalistic rhetoric and ability to dwell on long distant historical events that no longer bear any relevance to the modern world. 

I'd like to see a progressive government that actually tries to balance the finances of Scotland so our future generations aren't saddled with debts, a party that doesn't talk about social inequality but does something about it by creating a vibrant economy and decreasing unemployment,instead of using the state funding as a panacea for all the woes. A party that doesn't just look toward keeping central belt voters happy while ignoring those in the rural economy.

 Any clown of politician can spend public money without any concern to ramping up unaffordable debt but it takes a lot more thought to make a better country by making it work well through less state spending and more employment opportunities. 

Non of which the SNP seem to have a clue about.

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## weeker2014

> Well I've yet to see any policy of the SNPs that is actually better for Scotland, centralising the police and fire services costing more money with the absurd levying of VAT which the SNP knew about but didn't bother to take into account. 
> 
> NHS Scotland failing just like in Wales but in Scotland there's no excuse of mass immigration putting extra stress on the services just poor fiscal management. Falling literacy rates amongst our children due to SNP incompetence. 
> 
> A state sponsored minder for every child, totally invading the private lives of average families instead of targeting the ones that actually require monitoring. 
> 
> A inept purchase of an airport which is just costing the taxpayers of Scotland millions instead of being allowed to fail.Schools being built but running behind time and over budget.
> 
>  Can you actually point out one policy of the SNPs that is working. 
> ...


Oh dear sour grapes over the 56 SNP MP'S - I find it best just to suck it up!

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## davth

So long as DC has a healthy supply of buck fast, blue WKD and white lightning at the parliament bar, all will be well.

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## BetterTogether

> Oh dear sour grapes over the 56 SNP MP'S - I find it best just to suck it up!


You seem to miss the point I voted conservative so the party I voted for has a majority which the SNP can do nothing about. No sour grapes pure elation mind if I were an SNP voter id be concerned as they seem incapable of succeeding at anything except winning votes. Seems to me all SNP voters want is an independent bankrupt welfare state.

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## dozy

Are you a supporter of a Tory party members statement on the radio this morning that SNP supporters are "Marxist and Scum"

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## sids

> Are you a supporter of a Tory party members statement on the radio this morning that SNP supporters are "Marxist and Scum"


It might depend on context!

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## rob murray

> Are you a supporter of a Tory party members statement on the radio this morning that SNP supporters are "Marxist and Scum"


In the times and other papers today, Cameron will only offer the smith commission, SNP cannot make any further demands to this as they dont have any clout, so its smith or FFA which they cannot accept given the hole that will leave in Scottish fiances forcing Sturgeon et all to go along with imposed cuts or make their own cuts as they now lack any real leverage to extract lesser austerity cuts in Scotland. Its obvious STurgeons strategy was based on forcing a minority Labour government to do a "deal" with them...well all bets are off and  that smile will soon be gone from Nicola's face as one headline puts it.. people will soon wake up to the fact that 56 MPs count for nowt. Just do the arithmetic Cameron holds all aces...not sour grapes but hard political arithmetic...Cameron has to hold a EU referendum and if England votes to leave, Sturgeons run in to full independence is on....but what will that mean...net effect is we still will have a huge economic hole...so we are cornered...we could face .Greece with dour driech dampness !!

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## Rheghead

> Cameron has to hold a EU referendum and if England votes to leave, Sturgeons run in to full independence is on....but what will that mean...net effect is we still will have a huge economic hole...so we are cornered...we could face .Greece with dour driech dampness !!


Nope, as the referendum debate proved, Scotland's people and resources will pull her out of recession much faster than the rUK.  It makes little sense to say that the overcrowded and resource deplete UK can do a better job when 5 million Scots with 30% of the UK's land mass with all its resources and oil couldn't.

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## rob murray

> Nope, as the referendum debate proved, Scotland's people and resources will pull her out of recession much faster than the rUK.  It makes little sense to say that the overcrowded and resource deplete UK can do a better job when 5 million Scots with 30% of the UK's land mass with all its resources and oil couldn't.


Your arguement is based on arithmetic and pre supposes growth as well as economic management

What people are you referring to and what resources ?

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## rob murray

> Nope, as the referendum debate proved, Scotland's people and resources will pull her out of recession much faster than the rUK.  It makes little sense to say that the overcrowded and resource deplete UK can do a better job when 5 million Scots with 30% of the UK's land mass with all its resources and oil couldn't.


The referendum debate proved 55% hadnt the confidence you infer !

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## rob murray

> Nope, as the referendum debate proved, Scotland's people and resources will pull her out of recession much faster than the rUK.  It makes little sense to say that the overcrowded and resource deplete UK can do a better job when 5 million Scots with 30% of the UK's land mass with all its resources and oil couldn't.


Oh I get it if we all realise our potential freed from the chains of england then the economy booms

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## Rheghead

> The referendum debate proved 55% hadnt the confidence you infer !


How could the 55% have confidence when every news outlet was scaremongering?

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## sids

> How could the 55% have confidence when every news outlet was scaremongering?


Like you, I can only speak for myself, but it didn't scare me.

I confidently don't want Scottish independence.

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## rob murray

> How could the 55% have confidence when every news outlet was scaremongering?


Of course your correct 100%

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## Rheghead

> Like you, I can only speak for myself, but it didn't scare me.
> 
> I confidently don't want Scottish independence.


It wouldn't scare you if you wouldn't consider the possibility to any depth.

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## davth

Perhaps if questions had been answered or if the economy had not been based on the oil revenue at $120 a barrel which has since imploded.
Thank heaven for 55% of us who were sensible enough not to blindly step off the cliff into bankruptcy.

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## sids

> It wouldn't scare you if you wouldn't consider the possibility to any depth.


I suppose I am scared of drowning, if that's what you're talking about in that enigmatic epiphet.

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## Rheghead

> I suppose I am scared of drowning, if that's what you're talking about in that enigmatic epiphet.


People who are irrationally scared of drowning never get to enjoy a cool swim.

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## sids

> People who are irrationally scared of drowning never get to enjoy a cool swim.


That's true, but who is irrationally scared of drowning?

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## davth

> People who are irrationally scared of drowning never get to enjoy a cool swim.


 a swim is one thing
diving off holburn head in the pitch black during a storm is suicide though

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## BetterTogether

It's always the same old same old everyone who didn't vote for independence was either scared,blind or afraid.

 But one thing I have noticed through all this, never once do any of the SNPrs produce a single policy or area that th SNP have improved or radically changed for the benefit of the whole population.

 The usual round of aged historical tantrums are thrown about, the usual grievance against Westminster, but never ever do you hear them actually admit it's all pipe dreams based on ifs buts and maybes with no cohesive thought out rational ideas behind it.
 The reality is the SNP want a more left of central country with benefits and splurge spending to keep everyone happy. Even Nicola Sturgeon admitted during the election run up campaign that their spending programme would mean austerity would rumble on longer.
 I tend to agree with Rob that the prime minister will implement the Smith Commision recommendations and I very much doubt he will allow her to try negotiate further and should he decide to grant FFA to Scotland then you can guarantee Scotland wouldn't be in a position to negotiate more than he wants to give them.
 Watching Andrew Marr this morning Nicola Sturgeon seems a little delusional insisting she will negotiate a better deal for Scotland from a position of weakness and without the majority of the population behind her. 
The conservatives know that The majority of Scotland is pro Union and that some of the people who voted SNP this time wouldn't vote yes in a referendum, that means we now have 56 emasculated MPs in Westminster from a party that has no chance of making alliances with labour or the lib dems. The reality is the SNP have delivered themselves a fatal blow to their credibility as the next five years will start to show how utterly inept they truly are. Their failures will begin to shine through and the people of Scotland will tire of the constant blaming of everyone but themselves.

As for the EU referendum being a trigger for another referendum, well maybe in Nicolas mind it is but she should wait to see how the vote in Scotland goes, if the majority of Scotland vote for out of the EU she has no mandate and if the UK votes to stay in she still doesn't have a mandate. Unless Scotland where to vote out of the EU and the UK vote stays in, but wouldn't the SNP then have a major headache.

----------


## Rheghead

> a swim is one thing
> diving off holburn head in the pitch black during a storm is suicide though


Strange that, all Better Together frontline campaigners conceded that Scotland could go it alone but we were just _better together_.   Scaremongering?

----------


## davth

> Strange that, all Better Together frontline campaigners conceded that Scotland could go it alone but we were just _better together_.   Scaremongering?


We could have gone it alone.
It just that it would have resulted in despair.

----------


## Rheghead

> We could have gone it alone.
> It just that it would have resulted in despair.


Do we not have despair already?  Ugly scenes in London, not since the last tory government have seen such things.  Food banks.  Zero hours contracts.  Prospects of being out of EU.  An economy in the doldrums, anti poor, disabled and immigrant rhetoric. Look around you.

----------


## BetterTogether

> Do we not have despair already?  Ugly scenes in London, not since the last tory government have seen such things.  Food banks.  Zero hours contracts.  Prospects of being out of EU.  An economy in the doldrums, anti poor, disabled and immigrant rhetoric. Look around you.


Ugly scenes in London held by extremist unable to accept the democratic will of the people.

Food banks recently I read an article by a worker from one who says they have to remove the labels to stop those recieving them from reselling the items.

Zero hours contracts great if your a student or require flexible working hours and as it turns out only a small percentage of the population using them, and no one is forced to work under a zero hours contract.

Prospects of being out of the EU but only if demcratically decided by the electorate.We have the fastest growing economy in the western world and unemployment dropping radically on a daily basis.

Only a small minority accept that uncontrolled immigration is good for the country, placing controls over who comes in the country is a common sense thing to do.

 Disabled rhetoric once again spin bandied about by the militant left to scare people with no factual basis.

Seems the only people doing the scaremongering are the militant left and those afraid of allowing the electorate a democratic choice .

Seems to me the despair is from SNP voters who fail to realise they are being led by the nose by an all spin no substance party politik whose MPs have all signed an agreement not to speak out against members of the party or party politic regardless of what's happening. 

That means all SNP MPs put party before electorate , so much for a free fair society, democracy isn't for the SNP by the sounds of it.

----------


## BetterTogether

We must also remember this was a general election and for the past rather long boring weeks we've heard an awful lot how the SNP where going to lock the Tories out of power, having nailed their flag firmly to the mast and with all the pied piper from Irvine ,Nicola Sturgeons  fancy spin what they infact have succeeded in doing is once again FAILING in quite a spectacular fashion.

The befuddled and somewhat confused cabal of quasi messianic followers listened intently to her play her pipes and danced her merry wee tune all the way down to the voting booth, duly they crossed their  box in the hope of blocking those wicked Tories out of power, but alas the pied piper of the SNP had got her sums wrong, and despite delivering 56 of her trusted legion of minions to the demons lair only to find out despite having their tails all tied together they where powerless to stand in the face of a Tory Majority all her huff and puff had done nothing to blow their house down as they now had a house of brick and stone.

Two crushing defeats in 8 months is a fine track record.

How many more disappointments will SNP voters have to face before they realise the Pied Piper from Irvine is no more than a fairytale character and may tell a very jolly tale but non of its real. Maybe if she clicks her heels together three times and wishes it might all change.

----------


## rob murray

> It's always the same old same old everyone who didn't vote for independence was either scared,blind or afraid.
> 
>  But one thing I have noticed through all this, never once do any of the SNPrs produce a single policy or area that th SNP have improved or radically changed for the benefit of the whole population.
> 
>  The usual round of aged historical tantrums are thrown about, the usual grievance against Westminster, but never ever do you hear them actually admit it's all pipe dreams based on ifs buts and maybes with no cohesive thought out rational ideas behind it.
>  The reality is the SNP want a more left of central country with benefits and splurge spending to keep everyone happy. Even Nicola Sturgeon admitted during the election run up campaign that their spending programme would mean austerity would rumble on longer.
>  I tend to agree with Rob that the prime minister will implement the Smith Commision recommendations and I very much doubt he will allow her to try negotiate further and should he decide to grant FFA to Scotland then you can guarantee Scotland wouldn't be in a position to negotiate more than he wants to give them.
>  Watching Andrew Marr this morning Nicola Sturgeon seems a little delusional insisting she will negotiate a better deal for Scotland from a position of weakness and without the majority of the population behind her. 
> The conservatives know that The majority of Scotland is pro Union and that some of the people who voted SNP this time wouldn't vote yes in a referendum, that means we now have 56 emasculated MPs in Westminster from a party that has no chance of making alliances with labour or the lib dems. The reality is the SNP have delivered themselves a fatal blow to their credibility as the next five years will start to show how utterly inept they truly are. Their failures will begin to shine through and the people of Scotland will tire of the constant blaming of everyone but themselves.
> ...




Where we agree is that people are soon gonna discover that 56 SNP MP's wont change anything,  nor do they have the clout to influence, as for committee participation, big deal, ultimately the Tories arithmetically call the shots, and you can be assured they will have a savage whip system ensuring dissenters toe the lie.  Sturgeon can take what she is given, all she is doing is posturing playing up to the 50% that voted snp truth is its clear that the only ways the figures will get better for an FFA Scotland are

If oil recovers dramatically. Which it might but will take a couple of years to get back to $100 a barrel. But surely now every Scottish voter gets how volatile oil revenue is, understands that a decision to leap for fiscal freedom in a good oil year is likely to bite us in the arse come the next oil slump If we dramatically reduce public spending in Scotland _beyond the levels of UK wide cuts (_remember: its the deficit _difference_ to the rest of the UK that counts here). Frankly that clearly wont happen unless its forced on us through Barnett cut. If we increase tax rates dramatically such that we raise an additional £8bn or so from onshore taxes.  The current onshore tax take in Scotland is £50bn so that would be a 16% increase If we manage to buck the trend of the last 15 years (at least) and start generating economic growth _over and above_ that of the rest of the UK so that our tax take increases without having to increase tax rates.  The sum is the same as the one above; this would require 16% growth over and above that achieved by the rest of the UK to close the FFA gap

Even assuming a following wind and some combination of all of the above happening its hard to see how things could particularly rosy for the Independence case even by 2020.

----------


## BetterTogether

We both approach the same issues from vastly different political perspective Rob I'd say to some extent we are probably diametrically opposed on many issues, but on this one point we seem to be in total agreement.

----------


## rob murray

> We both approach the same issues from vastly different political perspective Rob I'd say to some extent we are probably diametrically opposed on many issues, but on this one point we seem to be in total agreement.


Yes, politically  we are different shades but united in the strategic political analysis, whats your take on caithness /suth / north ross voting SNP ?

----------


## BetterTogether

There's no great surprise that the SNP have been votes in this area I haven't looked at previous election results but if I where to take a guess it would probably show a collapse in labour voters and a smaller swing from liberal democrats. 

The problem really lay in people who listen intently to all the SNP propaganda but fail to see their record on delivery is fairly catastrophic to put it mildly. 

In reality the other parties lost the election labour have lost their traditional core vote because they have stopped listening to working class people and have centred their policies on the desires of a metropolitan elite, the lib dems lost because of the coalition with the conservatives and the sense of betrayal felt by their voters.

 Many voters for SNP only voted due to this being not an independence issue, no doubt a lot would feel betrayed should the SNP decide to have another roll of the dice with independence so soon after the referendum. 
It's really a question of how long the game of blame laying and grievance can last before people start to see their is no real meat on the bones of the SNPs manifesto. 

What Nicola Sturgeon is attempting to do is play a dangerous game which at some stage will result in the usual mock outrage at the Conservatives not listening to the democratic wishes of the people for some reason or other that is purely contrived from their tangled convoluted web of grievance against anyone who disagrees with them.

Although tonight I have heard from a conservative with reasonably good connections to party central that there is an attitude of letting Nicola Sturgeon have FFA as soon as possible then watch her hang herself and her party in fairly short order, the common belief being the black hole in finances being sufficiently large that the austerity forced upon Scotland through the actions of the SNP should be sufficient to ensure they loose the majority of their electoral base and become another defunct political force tossed on the scrap heap of history by their own short sighted goals.

----------


## cazmanian_minx

Previous figures (from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caithne..._constituency) )

1997

Liberal Democrat
Robert Maclennan
10,381
35.6
_N/A_

Labour
James Hendry
8,122
27.8
_N/A_

SNP
Euan Harper
6,710
23.0
_N/A_

Conservative
Tom Miers
3,148
10.8
_N/A_

Referendum Party
Carolyn Ryder
369
1.3
_N/A_

Scottish Green
John Martin
230
0.8
_N/A_

UKIP
Martin Carr
212
0.7
_N/A_

*Majority*
2,259
7.7
_N/A_

*Turnout*
29,172
70.2





2001

Liberal Democrat
John Thurso
9,041
36.4
+0.8

Labour
Michael Meighan
6,297
25.3
−2.5

SNP
John MacAdam
5,273
21.2
−1.8

Conservative
Robert Rowantree
3,513
14.1
+3.3

Scottish Socialist
Karn Mabon
544
2.2
_N/A_

Independent
Gordon Campbell
199
0.8
_N/A_

*Majority*
2,744
11.1


*Turnout*
24,867
60.2
−9.8




2005

Liberal Democrat
John Thurso
13,957
50.5
+11.9

Labour
Alan Jamieson
5,789
20.9
−3.4

SNP
Karen Shirron
3,686
13.3
−7.0

Conservative
Angus Ross
2,835
10.2
−3.3

Independent
Gordon Campbell
848
3.1
+2.3

Scottish Socialist
Luke Ivory
548
2.0
−0.2

*Majority*
8,168
29.5


*Turnout*
27,663
59.1
−2.0





2010

Liberal Democrat
John Thurso
11,907
41.4
−9.1

Labour
John Mackay
7,081
24.6
+3.7

SNP
Jean Urquhart
5,516
19.2
+5.8

Conservative
Alastair Graham
3,744
13.0
+2.8

Independent
Gordon Campbell
520
1.8
−1.3

*Majority*
4,826
16.8


*Turnout*
28,768
60.9
+1.5





2015

SNP
Paul Monaghan [3]
15,831
46.3
+27.1

Liberal Democrat
John Thurso [4]
11,987
35.1
-6.3

Labour
John Erskine [5]
3,061
9.0
-15.7

Conservative
Alastair Graham[_citation needed_]
2,326
6.8
-6.2

UKIP
Annie Murray [6]
981
2.9
_N/A_

*Majority*
3,844
11.2
-5.6

*Turnout*
34,186
71.9
+11.0



(Tables have gone a bit squiffy, shunt the majority and turnout figures left a bit in your imagination!)

----------


## rob murray

> There's no great surprise that the SNP have been votes in this area I haven't looked at previous election results but if I where to take a guess it would probably show a collapse in labour voters and a smaller swing from liberal democrats. 
> 
> The problem really lay in people who listen intently to all the SNP propaganda but fail to see their record on delivery is fairly catastrophic to put it mildly. 
> 
> In reality the other parties lost the election labour have lost their traditional core vote because they have stopped listening to working class people and have centred their policies on the desires of a metropolitan elite, the lib dems lost because of the coalition with the conservatives and the sense of betrayal felt by their voters.
> 
>  Many voters for SNP only voted due to this being not an independence issue, no doubt a lot would feel betrayed should the SNP decide to have another roll of the dice with independence so soon after the referendum. 
> It's really a question of how long the game of blame laying and grievance can last before people start to see their is no real meat on the bones of the SNPs manifesto. 
> 
> ...


Strategically all Cameron need do is lump FFA on them asap, the immediate austerity cuts that the SNP will have to implement will open up the eyes of the glory hunter /braveheart brigade voters, who will turn on the SNP next year in the scottish election, as FFA will push in immediate cuts, there is  no avoiding this situation, arguments that the SNP are entitled to chair a couple of Westminster committees and get access to more finances based on their intake, is a red herring, if say there were 80 seats in Scotland then access to  more finance etc can lead to gaining more seats ( money is a heavy hitter in campaigning ) but we have a fixed representation of 59 seats so big deal. Truth is timing is out, if say it was 2020 and the Scottish economy was on a sound setting then mouth off /make demands that will force the Westmister majority government to so some kind of deal, run with FFA but this is 2015 and every sane economic report /commentator see's an economy bumping along on 3 wheels. In Irish terms its 1916, to early and to weak.

----------


## squidge

56 out of 59 a failure? 

Aye ...right. 

Keep on gnashing your teeth and stamping your feet. You might even want to have a full blown tantrum but it won't make any difference. It's still 56 out of 59 MPs. It's still the SNP taking the third place in Westminster. It's still an average 24% swing and its still 95% success rate for our candidates. And yet the view by the political heavyweights of the org we see here is that somehow we were all baffled, bamboozled and befuddled by a wee woman in a helicopter ( paid for by donations from members BTW) into losing our senses. What a load of nonsense

The rest of the UK elected a tory government. Labour failed to offer a decent alternative. From what I see they have no clue how to address that. They need to get their act together or they will be toast in 2016 too. The Tories scraped their seat with a reduced percentage of the vote, although I think Ruth Davidson had a great time but they will need to show Scotland that they have some practical use if they are going to do better in 2016. The LibDems aren't even worth examining.

If theses parties sneer and Sulk as much as is going on here they might as well give up now. 

Tomorrow (or today) we have 56 SNP MPs in Westminster and I am delighted. 40% women, doctors, nurses, teachers  ordinary folk who aren't moving from uni, to special adviser to Shoe in for a safe seat. That is good for parliament. Bring it on!

----------


## Scout

> 56 out of 59 a failure? 
> 
> Aye ...right. 
> 
> Keep on gnashing your teeth and stamping your feet. You might even want to have a full blown tantrum but it won't make any difference. It's still 56 out of 59 MPs. It's still the SNP taking the third place in Westminster. It's still an average 24% swing and its still 95% success rate for our candidates. And yet the view by the political heavyweights of the org we see here is that somehow we were all baffled, bamboozled and befuddled by a wee woman in a helicopter ( paid for by donations from members BTW) into losing our senses. What a load of nonsense
> 
> The rest of the UK elected a tory government. Labour failed to offer a decent alternative. From what I see they have no clue how to address that. They need to get their act together or they will be toast in 2016 too. The Tories scraped their seat with a reduced percentage of the vote, although I think Ruth Davidson had a great time but they will need to show Scotland that they have some practical use if they are going to do better in 2016. The LibDems aren't even worth examining.
> 
> If theses parties sneer and Sulk as much as is going on here they might as well give up now. 
> ...


 I agree with you on the SNP victory, however the facts are they keep backtracking on what they say. They have given the people who voted no for independence but voted for SNP this is not for independence, we will have to wait and see on that. Their spending policy very much like Labours which almost brought country to bankruptcy. If people really think SNP will not bring in cuts and higher tax, then you're in for a shock.

----------


## squidge

All the posts here tell us that they are powerless, useless, lack any sort of influence, won't ba able to DO anything and as they are not forming part of the Government I'm not sure how people think they will be able to bring in taxes and cuts. 

I don't think the Tories will give Scotland FFA at all. I might be wrong but I think if they did they would face a serious back bench revolt. FFA would take years to sort out because it's not like independence, where EVERYTHING moves over and it is for the newly independent country to sort out. It's bits and pieces, untangling here, untying there buy keeping this bit and that. 

The Independence thing has not changed since the day we started talking about this. There are no plans for a 2nd referendum, there may be hopes, desires and longings but there are no plans. It has been said over and over again, there would need to be a material change for a referendum to be held and it would only happen if we voted for it. Does this election move us further to independence? No. 

We might hope it does and in our heart it might feel like it does but practically, politically it absolutely does not.

----------


## BetterTogether

Well as the SNP was such a resounding victory can someone tell me when they intend to start the coalition, supply and demand arrangement or vote by vote support to lock the Tories out as Wee Nicola Sturgeon used so vociferously during the pre election run up .........oh wait they can't because they FAILED !


 Whichever way you cut it 56 seats in Westminster is impressive but wields you very little power.

They played the game to win seats but forgot the bigger picture.

----------


## davth

> The rest of the UK elected a tory government.


There is no "rest of UK"
There is the UK and that's it, WE elected a Tory government not us and them, WE!

----------


## BetterTogether

> All the posts here tell us that they are powerless, useless, lack any sort of influence, won't ba able to DO anything and as they are not forming part of the Government I'm not sure how people think they will be able to bring in taxes and cuts. I don't think the Tories will give Scotland FFA at all. I might be wrong but I think if they did they would face a serious back bench revolt. FFA would take years to sort out because it's not like independence, where EVERYTHING moves over and it is for the newly independent country to sort out. It's bits and pieces, untangling here, untying there buy keeping this bit and that. The Independence thing has not changed since the day we started talking about this. There are no plans for a 2nd referendum, there may be hopes, desires and longings but there are no plans. It has been said over and over again, there would need to be a material change for a referendum to be held and it would only happen if we voted for it. Does this election move us further to independence? No. We might hope it does and in our heart it might feel like it does but practically, politically it absolutely does not.


I'm not so sure Tory central thinks the way you do or considers FFA such a difficult thing to implement, the reality is it could be foisted on Scotland in two years and would then be a mighty stone around the neck of the SNP as we both know.

 Considering how the SNP have attempted to dominate the pre-election run up and are becoming a thorn in the side of UK politics nothing would be better than giving them the powers they ask then watching them struggle to keep their  heads above water as debt and austerity drag them down .

It comes under the be careful what you wish for category of life.

----------


## squidge

I rather think the SNP kept their side of the bargain, to send a large number of SNP MPs to Westminster - it was Labour who dropped the ball.  But you know Better Together, you tell yourself what you want - whatever makes you feel better, and we shall see what happens with FFA. I'd be happy to see the Smith Commission recommendations implemented - with a few tweaks just now. It doesn't go far enough but it's a Start and we shall have to see what happens next really. 

Still no introduction Better Together, what's up? Don't worry someone has done it for you  :Wink:  xxx

----------


## BetterTogether

Only problem with wanting tweaks with the smith Commision recommendations comes from the small niggly problem that the parties have all put their parts forward its all been agreed upon, so now Nicola Sturgeon is going to attempt to renegotiate the terms which is never easy when you aren't in a position of power. 
Regardless of how many MPs the SNP now has it does not have sufficient power to force the Conservative party to do anything it's a new game they have to play one which they aren't used to, negotiating in a minority government is one thing up here, dealing with Westminster and a majority government is quite another even surely you have to accept that they lack the force to bring much weight to any negotiations. 
The problem being we are all very aware that the only thing the SNP are really interested in is independence and for now they will have to play a waiting game, especially if all the recommendations are implemented swiftly. 
The usual arguments of grievance or bullying will not work so well if the people of Scotland see everything they've been promised delivered but the SNP still wailing and moaning like some Shakespearean character about how bad their lot is. 
I note you tactfully avoid the FFA question as I'm sure you're as much aware as anyone that should that be delivered swiftly it would be a hammer blow to the SNP that would send them reeling and probably unable to recover. 
This isn't about the people of Scotland being unable to pay their way, it's now becoming an issue of how competent the MPs they've voted in are at handling the levers of power, and so far their track record for fiscal competency isn't so good.


Your last comment will remain unanswered as we both know the joy of using this forum is anonymity I do not attempt to publicly or privately unveil you thus you should be respectful enough to return the favour although no doubt there will be some rather amusing speculation.
 Should I desire contact you for any reason other than open debate I would of replied to your somewhat odd private message which you will note has remained unanswered. 
Respect for others privacy isn't too much to ask for I'm sure.

----------


## cptdodger

> Still no introduction Better Together, what's up? Don't worry someone has done it for you  xxx


That's quite creepy, you were that intent on finding out the identity of  Better Together, If I was him or her, I would be concerned as to what  you are going to do with that information.

----------


## Alrock

> If people really think SNP will not bring in cuts and higher tax, then you're in for a shock.


Nothing wropng with cuts per se, Depends how much & where, unlike the tories any cuts would not be aimed at the poor who can least afford it....

Ditto with higher taxes, nothing wrong with that as long it is those who can afford it & not once again the poor who will no doubt face the wrath of any tory tax riseses whilst the rich will undoubtedly get tax cuts....

----------


## davth

> That's quite creepy, you were that intent on finding out the identity of  Better Together, If I was him or her, I would be concerned as to what  you are going to do with that information.



*"Do not give out personal details of people you may know to other members of the forum.

If someone on the forum is requesting details of someone you know. You can pass on a message to that someone letting them know one of our members is looking for them. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES give someone else's details to another member without permission as there is no way to confirm the intentions of the person making the request. Anyone who is found to be doing this will be removed from our forums."

Banning offence IMHO*

----------


## cptdodger

> *
> 
> Banning offence IMHO*


Totally agree davth.

----------


## davth

Cybernat immunity will apply no doubt

----------


## rob murray

> 56 out of 59 a failure? 
> 
> Aye ...right. 
> 
> Keep on gnashing your teeth and stamping your feet. You might even want to have a full blown tantrum but it won't make any difference. It's still 56 out of 59 MPs. It's still the SNP taking the third place in Westminster. It's still an average 24% swing and its still 95% success rate for our candidates. And yet the view by the political heavyweights of the org we see here is that somehow we were all baffled, bamboozled and befuddled by a wee woman in a helicopter ( paid for by donations from members BTW) into losing our senses. What a load of nonsense
> 
> The rest of the UK elected a tory government. Labour failed to offer a decent alternative. From what I see they have no clue how to address that. They need to get their act together or they will be toast in 2016 too. The Tories scraped their seat with a reduced percentage of the vote, although I think Ruth Davidson had a great time but they will need to show Scotland that they have some practical use if they are going to do better in 2016. The LibDems aren't even worth examining.
> 
> If theses parties sneer and Sulk as much as is going on here they might as well give up now. 
> ...


Of course 56 / 59 is a spectacular success, everybody was trashed and labour must get back on settled "electable ground" but I doubt that they will be electable in 2020 MIllaband has turned the clock back to 1983, 2016 labour as toast.... dont quite agree as Camerons majority and the way he may play FFA could well rebound on the SNP in holyrood, as Scottish spending will have to radically exmained, and cuts will be inevitable, we are going to have to take the pain...or else they will hpist it on us !  Its all speculation of course but Sturgeon publically and constantly ruled out working with Tories prefering a minority Labour government where, whether they liked it or not SNP would have leverage. Also the referendum...I can clearly recall Sturgeon stating again and again when put on the spot that a referendum will only come via the 2016 manifesto  where the people can vote for one....only taking special circumstances into account, now we await tory plans for an EU referendum, ifs its an in / out vote, then STurgeon is qouted as stating that that would be grounds for a referendum. Which leads us nicely to another elephant in the room....if we vote for independance ie to stay in EU, and UK as a whole vote against, as an independant state ( new ) how long will it take for us to re gain membership as Salmons "explanation" turned out and was eposed as lies, assuming that the vote is for independance within the EU ?  WIth Camerons "slim" majority, SNP leverage is very insignificant. Its interesting that todays radio news has announced that the LD's have increased membership by over 5,000, dont know what that is about, perhaps tactical voters deciding to come clean and pin colours to the mast.Events over the period to  2016 will be interesting. Sneering and sulking ....no....I cannot wish away the SNP 56 but people have to be realistic, its still 56 from over 600 MP's and Sturgeon cannot make demands, she will take what she is given, thats the truth of it. She knows this, so the constant carping / moaning in my view is her covering her butt as she knows full well you dont make demands of a majority government. And as for "legitimacy" well under current voting system first past the post the tories have ( and this sticks in my damn throoat ) 100% legitimacy as they won the majority. WIth 59 MPS' the SNP can never in a million years gain majority in Westminster they will always be, even with 59 MP's, a marginal party with very linited leverage...now if we had a hung parliament a different story...but we dont do we ?

----------


## Rheghead

How has Miliband turned the clock back to 1983 if he hasn't reinstated clause 4?

----------


## squidge

> Cybernat immunity will apply no doubt


 You guys are sooooo funny and so predictable. It's absolutely fine and dandy for Better Together to assert repeatedly that I should offer my real name up to all and sundry, to repeatedly demand that I say who I am, to tell me that they have met me and know exactly who I am, to suggest time and time again that somehow I have NO RIGHT to use a pseudonym. 

That is all ok, acceptable and not any sort of problem, however if I give BT the opportunity to introduce the self, then let them know that it doesn't matter after all, that is a hanging  and flogging offence. 

Get away lol. You're all daft! 

As Better Together has met me several times they know absolutely that their identity is safe with me. They will know, from having met me that I would never do anything to identify them, to put them in potential danger. As they clearly know me they know that is the completely true, as do the many members that I have come to know and love and argue with over the years. I'm sure that Better Together is pleased that I feel much more  secure to know that they are the same sort of sensible and straightforward individual and so, despite initially feeling a wee bit creeped out by their demands for my identity to be divulged, on future I will be able to treat those demands as the bit of teasing  they clearly are. I feel much better now. Xxx

----------


## BetterTogether

In reply to Robs post I think a really interesting position that would make life incredibly difficult is if come the EU referendum the result shows Scotland as wishing to leave the EU along with the rest of the UK. 
If that does happen how would Nicola Sturgeon reconcile a country that has no desire to be in the  EU with the claim that the referendum would be a reason to launch a new Indpendence grab.
 I think that situation would really put the cat amongst the pigeons. While the political classes seem to consider the EU some kind of wonderful institution the average man in the street doesn't see much good from it. 
Who in their right mind votes for an unaccountable institution that has failed year after year to have its accounts signed off, costs billions with little or no return. 
Heaps miles of unecessary red tape on business large and small. 
Removes a countries ability to manage its own border and immigration as it sees fit. 
Allows a court not accountable to the electorate to make decisions which over rule a countries own justice system.
 To name  but a few issues.
 I'm not so sure the vote will be to remain in the EU for the benefits it does provide. 

This unified nation has always been a global trading nation I see no reason why we couldn't maintain trade relations with Europe without being a member of the EU.

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## Rheghead

> In reply to Robs post I think a really interesting position that would make life incredibly difficult is *if come the EU referendum the result shows Scotland as wishing to leave the EU along with the rest of the UK.* 
> If that does happen how would Nicola Sturgeon reconcile a country that has no desire to be in the  EU with the claim that the referendum would be a reason to launch a new Indpendence grab.


How will that be difficult?  It is pretty straight forward, the nation has spoken to stay in the EU and Scotland agreed.  The SNP will only act if there is a huge disparity in the ambitions between Scotland and rUK.

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## Scout

> Nothing wropng with cuts per se, Depends how much & where, unlike the tories any cuts would not be aimed at the poor who can least afford it....
> 
> Ditto with higher taxes, nothing wrong with that as long it is those who can afford it & not once again the poor who will no doubt face the wrath of any tory tax riseses whilst the rich will undoubtedly get tax cuts....


 So you say cuts are OK, that is very interesting as there will be always someone moaning about cuts in what ever section of public there for SNP will disappoint lot of people. To people making money earning etc, so your thoughts if you do well will punish you for getting off your ass and taking the risk. Remember there would be no work or wealth if someone did not make money and take the risk in life.

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## squidge

Better Together might be right, the Tories may very well say, go on have your FFA and  just you see what happens .  That's a bit like what the Labour Party said about Holyrood - have your parliament, it will kill demands for independence stone dead. That worked out well for them didn't it. I don't think they will, but I'm prepared to be wrong. Time will tell and today is a good day.  :Smile:

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## Rheghead

how much money will scrapping the house of lords save?  The Parliament Act of 1911 only allows the HoL to delay the Bills 3 times over a year then they must be put into statute.  Pretty ineffectual really as it is now just a well dressed talking shop.  We want cuts that matter and won't put people into poverty or a box.

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## rob murray

> How will that be difficult?  It is pretty straight forward, the nation has spoken to stay in the EU and Scotland agreed.  The SNP will only act if there is a huge disparity in the ambitions between Scotland and rUK.


2017 referendum ? We dont know how that will pan out and with Osborne now handing talks with EU re UK's position dont expect any back peddling.

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## rob murray

> How has Miliband turned the clock back to 1983 if he hasn't reinstated clause 4?


Because he presented a left of centre "vision" and thats what 1983 was about, but real left of centre by a long way. Sure he didnt want to re instate clause 4 but this is c21 so even a slightly pink left of centre is off message and in most of England always will be. Mandleson hit the nail on the head “The reason we lost it in 2010 we discarded New Labour, rather than revitalising it and re-energising it and making it relevant for the new times and new policy challenges that we face,”

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## Alrock

> So you say cuts are OK....


Yes, Trident & its replacement would be a good place to start.

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## rob murray

> Yes, Trident & its replacement would be a good place to start.


If only, somehow, cannot see that being an option, same ol same, with Cameron Osbourne and Duncan Smith, the holy trinity....austerity = cuts to benefits keep on plowing on ...theyve a job to finish thats what they repeatedly said in the election run up, ok they didnt supply details on where benefit cuts were to be inflicted just have to wait and see.

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## rob murray

> Because he presented a left of centre "vision" and thats what 1983 was about, but real left of centre by a long way. Sure he didnt want to re instate clause 4 but this is c21 so even a slightly pink left of centre is off message and in most of England always will be. Mandleson hit the nail on the head The reason we lost it in 2010 we discarded New Labour, rather than revitalising it and re-energising it and making it relevant for the new times and new policy challenges that we face,


Alan Sugar resigned from Labour today....denouncing the partys perceived shift to the left in the runup to last weeks general election, as two potential leadership candidates criticised the party and its campaigns lack of business appeal. " A labour party that appeals to business owners as well as employees.......

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## BetterTogether

Well I'd say you can rule out Yvette Cooper being married to Ed Balls doesn't help for starters also she is viewed as part of that out of touch a bit too left for comfort clique.
 Then Andy Burnham is tucked into the unions pockets to sit comfortably. 
Much as they may consider themselves totally suitable their public appeal is far too tainted by their recent soirée with Ed Miliband. 

Reality is a hard thing for the Labour Party to live with but they need to find someone the public will relate to and start appealing to business and the public at large

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## BetterTogether

> Yes, Trident & its replacement would be a good place to start.


Trident may well be the weapon of last resort but the reality is its £3.5 billion a year over 30 yrs in the world of defence spending that isn't big money when you also consider the cuts that have been made to defence spending in recent years.

 Compare that to the SNPs oft mentioned desire to spend the modest sum of £180 billion over the course of the next five years it becomes a relatively modest sum.

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## gleeber

> I can sit back and relax knowing the SNP have hit the ceiling and the only way for them to go after this election is down.


Isn't it kind of sad that we live in a country where politics have come to life and we have Scottish people hoping the country fails just so they can be proved right?
Is it dangerous or just plain stupid?

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## sids

> Isn't it kind of sad that we live in a country where politics have come to life and we have Scottish people hoping the country fails just so they can be proved right?
> Is it dangerous or just plain stupid?


No, because that piece of opinionated rhetoric makes little sense.

Staying in the UK is a success.

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## sids

> Trident may well be the weapon of last resort but the reality is its £3.5 billion a year over 30 yrs in the world of defence spending that isn't big money when you also consider the cuts that have been made to defence spending in recent years.
> 
>  Compare that to the SNPs oft mentioned desire to spend the modest sum of £180 billion over the course of the next five years it becomes a relatively modest sum.


Deterrence has been a bargain, compared to conventional war with Russia.

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## rob murray

> Isn't it kind of sad that we live in a country where politics have come to life and we have Scottish people hoping the country fails just so they can be proved right?
> Is it dangerous or just plain stupid?


If a % of people can see through the SNP and recognise that even with 56 /59 MPS' they will have to deal with a majority government..and cannot make "demands", and a % of people recognise that our economy is just now not strong enough to handle FFA ( without realiging planned spending ) never mind independance, I would say said % are concerned over the future and not are  hopeful that the country fails. There is more to Scotland than the SNP, people can hope the SNP MP's, fail / fall flat on their face exposing their lack of clout and over promises made at the election, which is a lot different than hoping the entire country falls flat. Look at it another way, there are ardent yessers who defy all economic logic...shout any sense down ....and they would rather live in a  "free" what will almost certainly be an impoverished Scotland just so that they can be "right". Me...well there are 56 SNP MPS's so Im prepared to give it time to see what they can achieve or rather, and unfortunatly for alll of us, what the majority government lets them achieve. Its in everyones interests for them to achieve some kind of reforms favourable to Scotland but Sturgeons rhetoric isnt exactly helping the cause of the westminster MP's.

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## rob murray

> Well I'd say you can rule out Yvette Cooper being married to Ed Balls doesn't help for starters also she is viewed as part of that out of touch a bit too left for comfort clique.
>  Then Andy Burnham is tucked into the unions pockets to sit comfortably. 
> Much as they may consider themselves totally suitable their public appeal is far too tainted by their recent soirée with Ed Miliband. 
> 
> Reality is a hard thing for the Labour Party to live with but they need to find someone the public will relate to and start appealing to business and the public at large


Yes cant diasgree with that, cant see Labour "re inventing" themselves by 2020, it will be 2025 before they are really ready (  unless we get a tory led catastrophe a black friday ) ,  their utter complacency in Scotland, coupled with, dare I say it a complete failure to connect, talking a political language rejected in Scotland by 50% of the vote  has destroyed them and in Scotland it will take years if ever Labour can bounce back ( again assuming that the SNP dont have a "black friday incident )   a Blair comes along once in a lifetime, and say what you want, he won Labour 3 elections so must have done something right in the eyes of voters. He obviously appealed to business and the public at large.

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## BetterTogether

I feel David Cameron has learnt quite well from all the chaos caused, he is trying to directly connect with ordinary people's aspirations effectively he is claiming the middle ground which is a safe place to be, very few of the public veer hard right or left.
 The interesting times will be when the new SNP MPs get to PMQs, Mr Cameron will no doubt use his skills to highlight the problems within Scotland and start laying the blame at their door as he used to when Labour attacked him on the NHS, he would use the NHS Wales problems to show how incompetent they are.
 We can expect every time an SNP MP mentions the NHS for all the Scottish NHS problems to be highlighted.
 The falling literacy rates if they mention education.
 There won't be many places for them to hide on fiscal policy as their sums just don't add up. 
We also have the mildly embarrassing situation where they are all talking off pre-prepared scripts not allowed to dissent from official party line or criticise any policy or member just wait for that little ruse to bite them or the accusation of Sturgeons Parrots to be thrown out. 
The rhetoric coming from them is currently the usual SNP grievance or hold their feet to the fire twaddle but now they aren't in Holyrood and far more publicly exposed than they where before. 
It won't be long before these inexperienced members stumble into the bear traps being set for them.

 Question is will Nicola be able to control them.

Then there will also be the issue of as prosperity continues to increase and unemployment falls and the economy recovers how will the SNP be able to push back against an improving situation everywhere else except Scotland. 
The uncertainty they continue to create isn't doing the Scottish economy any good, people who have money and want to invest will continue to invest but those wealthy creators will be wary of placing their money in Scotland because they just don't know what's going to happen.

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## rob murray

> I feel David Cameron has learnt quite well from all the chaos caused, he is trying to directly connect with ordinary people's aspirations effectively he is claiming the middle ground which is a safe place to be, very few of the public veer hard right or left.
>  The interesting times will be when the new SNP MPs get to PMQs, Mr Cameron will no doubt use his skills to highlight the problems within Scotland and start laying the blame at their door as he used to when Labour attacked him on the NHS, he would use the NHS Wales problems to show how incompetent they are.
>  We can expect every time an SNP MP mentions the NHS for all the Scottish NHS problems to be highlighted.
>  The falling literacy rates if they mention education.
>  There won't be many places for them to hide on fiscal policy as their sums just don't add up. 
> We also have the mildly embarrassing situation where they are all talking off pre-prepared scripts not allowed to dissent from official party line or criticise any policy or member just wait for that little ruse to bite them or the accusation of Sturgeons Parrots to be thrown out. 
> The rhetoric coming from them is currently the usual SNP grievance or hold their feet to the fire twaddle but now they aren't in Holyrood and far more publicly exposed than they where before. 
> It won't be long before these inexperienced members stumble into the bear traps being set for them.
> 
> ...


How true is your assertion................We also have the mildly embarrassing situation where they are all talking off pre-prepared scripts not allowed to dissent from official party line or criticise any policy or member just wait for that little ruse to bite them or the accusation of Sturgeons Parrots to be thrown out...... Canna see Alexi being gagged and London MPS's being controlled by Holyrood surely....??

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## BetterTogether

Nicola Sturgeon and her Stepford MPs , mildly disconcerting.

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## rob murray

> Nicola Sturgeon and her Stepford MPs , mildly disconcerting.


You will need to do better than that, your reply is really lacking in any substance whatsoever,  my belief as stated in another post is that the SNP are united in the desire for independance, as a party of largey unproven people and yes a few careerists ( ex labour ) they undoubtably will cross the political map blue via pink to red, they are not a united party in purely politcial terms, thats why they will need to be controllled, although Alexi....well who can control him. Now try again....

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## Fulmar

Is it ok to throw this into the mix. In  case you have not seen it, thought you might be interested?
Labour Hame.com

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## Fulmar

I should have said that the article I was referring to is by Yvonne Spence.

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## rob murray

> I should have said that the article I was referring to is by Yvonne Spence.


A very good read, common sense really...my take on the articale was .....to be be a poltician be visible and approachable 24 7 365, be seen to do your honest best for people, be open and approachable, show real action, determination and leadership....create, through their actions a community belief in themselves. Dont rely on the 5 weeks pre election on spin, media, dishing dirt, negativity etc to self promote, so yep inspiring read, which I would agree with, thanks very much !

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## BetterTogether

> You will need to do better than that, your reply is really lacking in any substance whatsoever,  my belief as stated in another post is that the SNP are united in the desire for independance, as a party of largey unproven people and yes a few careerists ( ex labour ) they undoubtably will cross the political map blue via pink to red, they are not a united party in purely politcial terms, thats why they will need to be controllled, although Alexi....well who can control him. Now try again....


My apologies Rob I should of made it clearer how I was referring to all the SNP MPs on election nights speeches being virtually identical, all handed down to them from SNP party central to make sure they where all bang on message and widely reported at the remarkable similarities by a large section of the media. 

If I where more gullible I could almost delude myself into believing that SNP MPs have some kind of superhuman synaptic snychronicity but alas that's  a stretch to far for me.

But there is no secret to the SNPs rules which do not allow any one of those MPs to speak out against party or criticise another member, something no other party feels is a necessity and has worrying overtones when one is to consider how these MPs are now supposed to represent all members of their community not just SNP supporters. 
What happens when issues are placed before them by members of the public which are at odds with SNP official line or draw into question the behaviour of SNP members. 
Then we have a direct conflict of interests and the unfortunate MPs duly elected to represent the people unable to act because their party will not allow them to.

So much for a free and fairer society.

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