# General > General >  Nick Griffin / BBC to allow BNP on Question Time

## Nacho

Nick Griffin's gonna be on next week's Question Time panel.

as much as i hate the man and his 'party', i know this will be compelling tv.
he's a defensive speaker on his party's issues,  
i can't wait to see how he's gonna comment on issues such as ...the current recession .. resolving youth unemployment .... mp's expenses row ....

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## teddybear1873

> Nick Griffin's gonna be on next week's Question Time panel.
> 
> as much as i hate the man and his 'party', i know this will be compelling tv.
> he's a defensive speaker on his party's issues,  
> i can't wait to see how he's gonna comment on issues such as ...the current recession .. resolving youth unemployment .... mp's expenses row ....


Don't forget immigration.

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## Nacho

> Don't forget immigration.


cheers teddy, tell that to Nick...... lets watch him flap ...

he's a hatred wrapped in a soundbite incensed with a liberal dose of conneries

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## Alan16

I agree with Alan Johnson from tonight's Question Time and the guy in the audience - I don't think he should be allowed on it. He is an idiot and most people will realise that, but some parts of the British public will be susceptible to his soundbites, especially when he is saying them on a programme such as Question Time where it will appear like his views are legitimised.

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## Nacho

i agree with what your saying Alan, but that's democracy for you ...

he's entitled to a say, but rest assured he'll expose himself to be the idiot that he is , he'll represent the racist manifesto that he has, nothing else .... 

not all publicity is good, he's gonna have to justify how an all white party must accept all races ..... his skinhead nazi backbenchers don't like this law ..... cue the smell of brown leather imploding !!

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## Bazeye

Wether you agree with the BNPs policies or not, they are a legitimate political party and should have as much right to air their views as any other party. Thats what democracy is all about. Up until now they have not been allowed to do that by the powers that be, which doesnt sound very democratic to me. Sounds like a "We're a democracy as long as you agree with us" type of statement to me.

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## Bazeye

> his skinhead nazi backbenchers !


 You forgot to mention the "buzzwords" fascist and knuckle dragger.

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## Nacho

> You forgot to mention the "buzzwords" fascist and knuckle dragger.


cheers Baz, let's not forget their full ID ......  further adjectives to follow ....


here's one .... neaderthal ..... is that an adj. ?

okay , lets make a 7 day one/two word adjective to describe the BNP and their followers .... including any positives that there may be  ....

i'll start ....


racist ....

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## Bazeye

> cheers Baz, let's not forget their full ID ...... further adjectives to follow ....
> 
> 
> here's one .... neaderthal ..... is that an adj. ?


 
 No its a spelling mistake.

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## Nacho

well spotted Baz, i purposely included that to eliminate the anal posters from those who have something genuine to say ...

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## Flashman

> I agree with Alan Johnson from tonight's Question Time and the guy in the audience - I don't think he should be allowed on it. He is an idiot and most people will realise that, but some parts of the British public will be susceptible to his soundbites, especially when he is saying them on a programme such as Question Time where it will appear like his views are legitimised.


You cease to become a Democracy if you start banning opposition because you dont like what they say. 

If a percentage of the British people believe in far right wing politics then they are entititled to political representation as long as it is political and does not involve intimidation or violence.


The fact the BNP even has any political clout should indicate to mainstream parties that there are some problems that need to be addressed. Any leap in votes to the far right or the far left indicate internal social issues (just look at the history books). It is not bad, the threat of the BNP is small and if anything there has been an over reaction in Britain however it should set alarm bells going that things need to be changed.

Labour at the moment are the epitomy of the superiority of the state over the individual. We need politicians in parliament who are there to serve the country, not themselves and shallow party political beliefs which by carrying them out might get them more power (see Lord Mandelson)

Another dangerous thing is to dismiss their voters as extreme Nazi Skinheads. The majority of their voters and the reason why they have two MEP's is that normal mostly ex labour working class voters are voting for them and they pretty much wont have a racist bone in their bodies... they are basically  left out by a political system that likes to dictate rather than serve.

If the BNP only had the voters who vote on racial issues then this post would not even exsist

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## Gizmo

> You cease to become a Democracy if you start banning opposition because you dont like what they say. 
> 
> If a percentage of the British people believe in far right wing politics then they are entititled to political representation as long as it is political and does not involve intimidation or violence.
> 
> 
> The fact the BNP even has any political clout should indicate to mainstream parties that there are some problems that need to be addressed. Any leap in votes to the far right or the far left indicate internal social issues (just look at the history books). It is not bad, the threat of the BNP is small and if anything there has been an over reaction in Britain however it should set alarm bells going that things need to be changed.
> 
> Labour at the moment are the epitomy of the superiority of the state over the individual. We need politicians in parliament who are there to serve the country, not themselves and shallow party political beliefs which by carrying them out might get them more power (see Lord Mandelson)
> 
> ...


Thank god there's finally someone else who can look at this situation objectively, great post.

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## highlander

I love that programme, it will be interesting next week, wonder how many of his henchmen will be standing in the background to step in when trouble flares up. Did anyone watch the programme BNP wifes, now they did look a scary lot. lol

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## tonkatojo

> I love that programme, it will be interesting next week, wonder how many of his henchmen will be standing in the background to step in when trouble flares up. Did anyone watch the programme BNP wifes, now they did look a scary lot. lol


I suppose the "henchman" could be disguised as security staff, there are a hell of a lot of Labour, Con  Snp, lib Dem, Wives and ordinary public that are no oil paintings too.

PS  I am not a Nick Griffin fan either, but democracy should rule.

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## Bazeye

> I love that programme, it will be interesting next week, wonder how many of his henchmen will be standing in the background to step in when trouble flares up. Did anyone watch the programme BNP wifes, now they did look a scary lot. lol


If trouble does flare up I would imagine it would be started by someone other than one of the BNP. This is the opportunity theyve been waiting for, after being denied this democratic right in the past, and will not squander the chance to air their views. Be interesting to see who the audience will consist of. Agent provocateurs perhaps.......who knows?
You can guarantee that if any members of the audience have skinheads, visible tattoos, do the nazi salute etc they will not be the BNP, more likely to be UAF masquerading as the BNP.  IMO.

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## crayola

A friend of mine was at Downing with Griffin and I met him at a party in London a few years afterwards. He was a horrible little man with no social skills who didn't look you in the eye and he smelled of squashed nettles.  ::

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## Flashman

To be fair on Nick Griffin.... at least you know what he stands for!!!!.... Which is more than can be said for the majority of nobodys we elect to parlaiment  ::

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## crayola

Yes he stands for deceit and dishonesty and he smells awful.  :: 

Does that make him better than the rest?  ::

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## golach

> To be fair on Nick Griffin.... at least you know what he stands for!!!!.... Which is more than can be said for the majority of nobodys we elect to parlaiment


Aye maybe, but who wants to be tarred with that racist bigot, I will not be voting for him or his party.

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## Bazeye

> A friend of mine was at Downing with Griffin and I met him at a party in London a few years afterwards. He was a horrible little man with no social skills who didn't look you in the eye and he smelled of squashed nettles.


Might be because hes only got one eye. He and Gordon Brown do have something in common after all. ::

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## crayola

> Might be because hes only got one eye. He and Gordon Brown do have something in common after all.


I didn't know that! I don't know when he lost his other eye but unless I am very much mistaken I can tell you he had two eyes and they were all over the place in the mid 80s.  ::

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## Flashman

> Aye maybe, but who wants to be tarred with that racist bigot, I will not be voting for him or his party.


 
Good god I was not meaning to vote for him! 

Just pointing out that he says what he stands for and we have the choice on him , as opposed to many MP's who are elected who dont really seem to have any great political beliefs other than short term party policy.

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## davie

I am more afraid of the bunch of left wing idiots masquerading as the Scottish National Party than I am of Nick Griffin.

The BNP will never get in to a position of power in the UK but if they do get a few votes it will make the mainstream parties look again at their priorities regarding immigration etc.

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## Tom Cornwall

> i agree with what your saying Alan, but that's democracy for you ...
> 
> he's entitled to a say, but rest assured he'll expose himself to be the idiot that he is , he'll represent the racist manifesto that he has, nothing else .... 
> 
> not all publicity is good, he's gonna have to justify how an all white party must accept all races ..... his skinhead nazi backbenchers don't like this law ..... cue the smell of brown leather imploding !!


I agree with all you say, but what if...he comes over as something completely different and smooth talks the audience in to thinking he's been put over as something completely different..

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## Flashman

> I am more afraid of the bunch of left wing idiots masquerading as the Scottish National Party than I am of Nick Griffin.
> 
> The BNP will never get in to a position of power in the UK but if they do get a few votes it will make the mainstream parties look again at their priorities regarding immigration etc.


 
Well said, it's all about taking them head on on the issues that are important to the elctorate.

Heard Mr Hain is threatning the BBC with legal action over his appearance..... bad move.

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## Bazeye

Is that the same Mr Hain who "forgot" to mention the £200,000 that had been donated to his party or election fund or whatever it was, and when it got discovered paid back £25,000? The same Mr Hain who was identified in a South African bank robbery? Rule #1.  If youre going to dish the dirt on anyone make sure youre squeeky clean yourself otherwise youre claims lose a considerable amount of credibility.

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## Rheghead

I think the rise of the BNP  is a symptom of the failure of the major parties policies in relation to tackling immigration, poverty and social justice rather than any affinity to racist trends in British society.

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## davie

> I think the rise of the BNP  is a symptom of the failure of the major parties policies in relation to tackling immigration, poverty and social justice rather than any affinity to racist trends in British society.


At least we agree on something Rheggers !

Had a look at 'The Times' online just now and there is a disturbing article about Griffin and his spat with the Armed Forces Head Honchos.
I had not really paid any attention to the BNP until now but what I see and hear about them is disturbing.

(I see that The Pepsi Challenge has alrerady posted details of The Times article)

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## Bazeye

The head honchos of the British Army have stated that they want a cap on the number of non British  joining their ranks. Wonder why that hasnt been reported.....Oh thats right it would be "racist", wouldnt it.

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## smj

This link may be of interest to anyone who wishes to add there comments to the Question Time Programme 

At a moment like this we need to rally together to send a message of defiance against the BNP.  And Stella, you're best placed to do this. So why did you oppose the racist BNP? Why you are proud to live in our open and tolerant society? 

Or quite simply, what message do you want to send Nick Griffin?  

Tell us here:  

http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/questiontime

Whatever you write, whatever story you tell, your words will speak for the majority of Britons. And when thousands of us come together in this action we can send a unified message of hope to counter Griffin's fractured message of hate. 

Please join us in this moment - whether you write a single word or an entire essay we will take them all to the BBC and present them to David Dimbleby. We can't make the impact we need without you - please send a message now: your stories make our movement.

http://action.hopenothate.org.uk/questiontime

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## mrjolly

> Nick Griffin's gonna be on next week's Question Time panel.
> 
> as much as i hate the man and his 'party', i know this will be compelling tv.
> he's a defensive speaker on his party's issues, 
> i can't wait to see how he's gonna comment on issues such as ...the current recession .. resolving youth unemployment .... mp's expenses row ....


 who is he?

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## George Brims

> who is he?


He's a sleazy nobody.

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## coppertop 1958

BBC to allow BNP on Question Time

British National Party leader Nick Griffin will be allowed to appear on Question Time, the BBC Trust has said.

The BBC's governing body had convened a meeting to consider complaints from Welsh Secretary Peter Hain and others about Mr Griffin's appearance. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8319136.stm

WHATS YOUR VIEW.........

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## Cedric Farthsbottom III

Nick Griffin has every right to be on Question Time as Lord Sutch of the Raving Looney Party had as well.Tell me yer policies,tell me what ye want to do.No spin,no broken promises,just the facts.If ye tell me what I want to hear I'll vote for ye.If ye don't and do diss me then I'll vote for someone else.

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## Tilter

Tough question Coppertop.

As poisonous as we might believe the BNP to be, I'm leaning towards thinking they should be allowed on Question Time for the sake of freedom of speech, which has to be one of the biggest, if not the biggest, qualifications for a democracy.  On the other hand, they are not legal because their membership policy contravenes the Race Relations Act.  On the other other hand, we are free to vote for them if we wish and so they could potentially run the country.

If they are allowed on the programme, perhaps they'll get such a bashing they will lose popularity (give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves etc.).  To not allow them on TV would only gain popularity for them.

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## Phill

Unfortunately he's an elected MP, albeit a Euro MP, and therefore he should be allowed to voice his opinions (?) like any other elected MP, MSP etc. etc.

Once we censor him we are going down a long and uncomfortable road that may end up suppressing anyone who does not agree with the Gov't of the day.

As has already been pointed out he will probably screw up and make himself, and his party, look like the idiots they are.

By the fact this is going on he is already winning some ground, everybody is talking about him & the BNP. They are getting massive exposure, it should be a non story.

Again, as it has been pointed out he has only managed to get this far because the mainstream parties (MP's in general) have been taking the micky and not seen to be achieving anything other than looking after themselves.
He has been the one to seen to give the MP's a bloody nose, unfortunately it's collectively our own fault in a way. We can't all be bothered to vote because we just get another shower of incompetents to replace the first so why bother we think, and then in marginal areas where he can stir up a bit of a storm, and helped along by the sensationalism of the press, he got people out to vote because he is seen as an option.

The BNP aren't going to get anywhere, let him make a turkey of himself and then the best thing to do is just ignore him and his party.
The more the other parties and groups try and fight his position and legitimacy actually gives him legitimacy.

It doesn't really matter who ends up on Question Time, I always end up wanting to throw bricks at the telly!!

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## northener

Censoring a legitimate political party would be a ridiculous (and dangerous) thing to do.

Does anyone remember the fiasco surrounding Sinn Fein and the blocking of speeches by Gerry Adams on the BBC? Hugely counter-productive. I hope we don't go down that road again.

I find their policies distasteful, but some are understandable. They've gleaned enough public support to make them a viable and legal political party, so they should be entitled to the same access to the media as anyone else. 

As for all these 'petitions' being bandied about on the internet that are attempting to blacklist* the BNP, could you imagine the furore if a group of, say, Tories attempted to mask a far Left political party by using the same methods? We'd never hear the end of it.

Let them speak.




*'Black'list...ha! Ooooh I'm so funny, me......

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## Bazeye

All these calls for him to be banned make me wonder who the real fascists are. See Russell Grants at it now. It seems to me that being part of a Democracy that advocates "free speech" only comes into operation when you agree with them. Could it also be that the beeb cant ban him now for fear of facing legal action for breaking their charter of impartiality?

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## Tubthumper

I wonder if the phrase 'there's no such thing as bad pubicity' applies here. The more stramash that's caused, the further the stinky agenda of the BNP penetrates into the National psyche...

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## Alice in Blunderland

Oh well not long now until I watch question time and see how it all went.

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## Cazaa

> Censoring a legitimate political party would be a ridiculous (and dangerous) thing to do. Does anyone remember the fiasco surrounding Sinn Fein and the blocking of speeches by Gerry Adams on the BBC? Hugely counter-productive. I hope we don't go down that road again . . . could you imagine the furore if a group of, say, Tories attempted to mask a far Left political party by using the same methods? We'd never hear the end of it.


It wasn't the BBC that censorsed Sinn Fein (and then had actors reading out the words of its members) - it was that other right-wing political leader, Mrs. Thatcher wot dun it. 
It's not the role of the BBC to censor, it is there to offer unbiased (!) reporting/opinion. 
Mr. Hain should bring it up at the Commons and perhaps have a motion drawn up about it if he genuinely believes that the BNP should be silenced. 

Of course, offering Nasty Nick the opportunity speak precludes him from claiming he is being 'muffled' by the media. 

Give him enough rope . . . 

As for them allowing 'non-white' members into their party, I hope that they are swamped with more 'non-whites' at their meetings! (which, unfortunately will probably never happen.

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## Alan16

Is anyone else disproportionately excited about this episode of Question Time? I see that the BBC have released a few clips of Griffin on QT, but I'm not watching them - I need to see it all. I actually did my work for tonight yesterday, so I could watch this without any distractions.

At worst it will be entertaining television. At best Griffin will show himself to be the utter moron he is.

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## Alan16

It's starting - get the popcorn!

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## Alan16

Wooh! Cheer! Go Jack Straw! Boo the Nazi!

That's right. I will be providing an unbiased commentary.

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## Alan16

You can see that Griffin is disgusted by that black gentleman speaking to him like that.

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## Alan16

Quick point. Could the most powerful Muslim woman in Britain (Dimbleby's words, not mine) have a bigger poppy?

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## Alan16

You know what worries me most? That somebody somewhere will be sitting at home nodding along to what Griffin says.

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## redeyedtreefrog

Please stop the commentary Alan, it's rather annoying.  If anyone wants one they can find it at http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/b...time-live-blog .

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## Alan16

What was Griffin thinking when he accepted this invitation?

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## Alan16

> Please stop the commentary Alan, it's rather annoying.  If anyone wants one they can find it at http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/b...time-live-blog .


If what I'm saying annoys you, don't read it.

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## redeyedtreefrog

> If what I'm saying annoys you, don't read it.


It appears as if nobody is...

I hate how Griffin's wearing a poppy.  But I like how he defended the KKK whilst sitting next to an African-American.

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## Alan16

> I hate how Griffin's wearing a poppy.  But I like how he defended the KKK whilst sitting next to an African-American.


I just hate Griffin, never mind the poppy.

Nicely done from Jack Straw there - promising as the Justice Minister that Griffin will not be prosecuted if he explains his denial of the holocaust.

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## Rheghead

just wondered where we would be if everyone was of the same ilk of Jack Straw's father during ww2? ::

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## Alan16

> just wondered where we would be if everyone was of the same ilk of Jack Straw's grandfather during ww2?


I'm sorry, but I think that is a ludicrous thing to say. Unlike you I'm not going to judge a man on what Nick Griffin says about him.

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## morvenview

As far as i seen he was not allowed to answer the majority of questions put to him. I dont go with a lot of what he says but i think if 95% of politcions had a back bone they would be beside him on immigration laws. How much tax do we pay for them a year without our own spongers!

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## davie

> I'm sorry, but I think that is a ludicrous thing to say. Unlike you I'm not going to judge a man on what Nick Griffin says about him.


Why all this excitement about some crappy TV reality show - have you nothing better to do with your time.

I dont know about Jack Straw's grandfather but his father was a conscientous objector during WW11.

In my humble opinion the said Jack Straw is one of the most odious self centred parasites in the political spectrum

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## morvenview

> Why all this excitement about some crappy TV reality show - have you nothing better to do with your time.
> 
> I dont know about Jack Straw's grandfather but his father was a conscientous objector during WW11.
> 
> In my humble opinion the said Jack Straw is one of the most odious self centred parasites in the political spectrum


He showed that tonight!

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## zeppellin

> As far as i seen he was not allowed to answer the majority of questions put to him. I dont go with a lot of what he says but i think if 95% of politcions had a back bone they would be beside him on immigration laws. How much tax do we pay for *them* a year without our own spongers!


'Them,' I think an explanation is required here. Isn't this the kind of stuff Mr. Griffin peddles? However you, like Mr. Griffin, have the right to freedom of speech as long as it is not inciteful or illegal. We also have the right to reply, via our freedom of speech, to ridicule and/or simply dismiss these kind of rantings as ill informed and ignorant clap-trap. I'll, as you might expect, choose the former.

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## Stavro

> In my humble opinion the said Jack Straw is one of the most odious self centred parasites in the political spectrum



Well said. How anyone can place the slightest value on a Jack Straw comment is beyond my comprehension.

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## northener

> It wasn't the BBC that censorsed Sinn Fein (and then had actors reading out the words of its members) - it was that other right-wing political leader, Mrs. Thatcher wot dun it. 
> It's not the role of the BBC to censor, it is there to offer unbiased (!) reporting/opinion......
> .


Yup. I know that. I never accused the Beeb of censoring Gerry Adams/Sinn Fein. More power to the Beeb for sticking to their guns.

Anyway, nice to see the Anti-Fascist brigade upholding the right of democratically elected political groups to engage in free speech..... :: 

Stalin was Anti-Fascist.........

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## Alice in Blunderland

> As far as i seen he was not allowed to answer the majority of questions put to him. I dont go with a lot of what he says but i think if 95% of politcions had a back bone they would be beside him on immigration laws. How much tax do we pay for them a year without our own spongers!


If we stood beside him on immigration laws and, and this is a very big *AND* his immigration policy ever became law then where would that leave my children ?

Would my girls be packed off to a country they have never been to, or would they be allowed to stay in a country they were born in ? Their dad would eventually be sent packing, what then would happen to our family ? ripped apart by tough new laws. 

When it comes to immigration laws you have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. Yes a review, but not an out right throw them all out. 
They are not all spongers, many add quite a lot to our society and pay a fair amount of taxes themselves.  :Smile:

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## buddyrich

It was a bit too much of a "Lets get Griffin!" scene.  If he'd been allowed to talk more, he would have done a fine job of hanging himself with his own rope.  

Look at what he spoke about when he was given the floor-how he might have been wrong about how many were killed during the holocaust and David Duke-just the usual lunatic fringe nonsense.

Bonnie Greer was quite correct-there is, on this issue at least, a surfeit of common sense in this country.  The bnp are never going to be in power and they dont grasp that they're being used as a convenient conduit for peoples outrage over expenses and immigration.  

Entertaining tv but just a lunatic fringe group, nothing more.

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## Amy-Winehouse

Did anyone else on here find this was Typical of the BBC. This was a stitch up for Griffin if ever you saw one. 

No mention of Jack Straw being a member of the Communist party or that his old boy was an objector to the WWII

 Without a doubt the audience there was selected to assure an upset for the BNP. Personally I am not a follower of the BNP. I do think they have some interesting points on immigration. 

The UK is sinking with immigrants that cannot and will not contribute anything to our country. It is amazing the amount of people that are leaving the UK due to our Liberal MPs that have allowed the destruction of our British ways.
 Come to Britain and be British. We dont need all these ethnic cultures. No need for other languages, well maybe Polish  :Wink: 

 As for religion. That is personal and should be kept in a church or at home. We dont need the Mullahs in the street preaching hatred towards us. We never see these guys being arrested when they are abusing white people. 

Establishment has created a culture of "I dont like what you said, Oh it is against my religion or colour or whatever, I will call the police"
It is very hard for voters today to actually vote at an election as every one of our so called MPs are there for there own gains.

 People are fed up with society and the disregard of our way of life. Thats why BNP are rising. Its not racists or nazis who are voting for BNP. It is the everyday working class UK people who are fed up been negelcted by there own goverment so that they can attend to the needs of ethnic minorities. 
Keep Britain British. If you dont like being British. Remember you are free to leave.

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## Rheghead

> I'm sorry, but I think that is a ludicrous thing to say. Unlike you I'm not going to judge a man on what Nick Griffin says about him.


It is a fairly simple question, try answerring it.  I want to hear you address it.

By the way, it is a matter of public record by his own admission, it is a shame that you ignore info depending what the source is without making your own mind up...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-Justice.html

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## Rheghead

I think the Questiontime was a stitch up as well and I fear that it played into the BNP's hands.  It's like if you want a record to sell then you create controversy around it and get broadcasters to ban it.  It'll sell like hot cakes.  

I was also amused at Jack Straw's response at the question about whether the BNP's success was down to the failure of the major party's policies.  What a big waffler!!

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## golach

I do not think the show was a stitch up, but a very good exercise on behalf of the BBC to show the General Public such as I, that Nick Griffin is and was a blustering buffoon, shame that Jack Straw came over as the same.
My favourites were the two females, now there are two clever women, and when Bonnie Greer informed Griffin that Churchill's mother could be part Mohican, his face to me was a picture.

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## Phill

I quite liked Bonnie Greer. She spoke the least and said the most!

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## Geo

> just wondered where we would be if everyone was of the same ilk of Jack Straw's father during ww2?


There wouldn't have been a war for a start.

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## Rheghead

> There wouldn't have been a war for a start.


No war during a war? ::

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## zeppellin

> just wondered where we would be if everyone was of the same ilk of Jack Straw's father during ww2?


 People nowadays have the right to decide whether they want to put their lives in extreme danger or face the situation where they may be required to kill a man. Mr. Straw's father merely exercised his right to this at a time where the population were stripped of these rights and remember they used to shoot people who refused to take part in war. As to Mr. Straw himself, IMO he came over very well and spoke as much sense as any other panel member. It's very easy to blame the government of the day for any percieved failings or when something is done that you dont agree with and the other political panel members exploited this. The Tories and the Lib. Dems. dont have the answers for this either although they will tell you they do. Imigration is an emotive subject that will never have a solution that suits everyone. The current government policy is just about right, although there are a few areas which need attention. By the way Rheghead, how would you feel if a letter dropped through the letter box this morning (as long as there was no postal strike) telling you that you will be required to be at RAF Leuchars in Fife in fourteen days time for a flight to Helmand Province, Afghanistan. DEAL OR NO DEAL.

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## tonkatojo

> People nowadays have the right to decide whether they want to put their lives in extreme danger or face the situation where they may be required to kill a man. Mr. Straw's father merely exercised his right to this at a time where the population were stripped of these rights and remember they used to shoot people who refused to take part in war. As to Mr. Straw himself, IMO he came over very well and spoke as much sense as any other panel member. It's very easy to blame the government of the day for any percieved failings or when something is done that you dont agree with and the other political panel members exploited this. The Tories and the Lib. Dems. dont have the answers for this either although they will tell you they do. Imigration is an emotive subject that will never have a solution that suits everyone. The current government policy is just about right, although there are a few areas which need attention. By the way Rheghead, how would you feel if a letter dropped through the letter box this morning (as long as there was no postal strike) telling you that you will be required to be at RAF Leuchars in Fife in fourteen days time for a flight to Helmand Province, Afghanistan. DEAL OR NO DEAL.


I have to disagree, Straw's father reaped the benefits of the people that fought on his behalf, a lot didn't come back, but he was safe enough.Straw at least was humble enough to look embarrassed, as he is still reaping the benefits, in a way the same could be said for the Helmand situation, similar evils.

----------


## tonkatojo

> Did anyone else on here find this was Typical of the BBC. This was a stitch up for Griffin if ever you saw one. 
> 
> No mention of Jack Straw being a member of the Communist party or that his old boy was an objector to the WWII
> 
>  Without a doubt the audience there was selected to assure an upset for the BNP. Personally I am not a follower of the BNP. I do think they have some interesting points on immigration. 
> 
> The UK is sinking with immigrants that cannot and will not contribute anything to our country. It is amazing the amount of people that are leaving the UK due to our Liberal MPs that have allowed the destruction of our British ways.
>  Come to Britain and be British. We dont need all these ethnic cultures. No need for other languages, well maybe Polish 
> 
> ...


The statement you made is what most people think including me. the old saying "when in Rome" comes to mind.

----------


## zeppellin

> I have to disagree, Straw's father reaped the benefits of the people that fought on his behalf, a lot didn't come back, but he was safe enough.Straw at least was humble enough to look embarrassed, as he is still reaping the benefits, in a way the same could be said for the Helmand situation, similar evils.


 Same question, Helmand Province, DEAL OR NO DEAL?

----------


## Phill

It's all very easy to sit here in the "comfort of our armchairs" and ponder the rights or wrongs of somebodies father or grandfather or their fourth grandfathers cousin, twice removed.

I am not responsible for what past family members may or may not have done, this was just a cheap shot because Nick Griffin couldn't come up with anything substantive or solidly appealing to the masses.

I don't remember any of the panellist's bringing up his family history which could be considered "colourful".

The guy was out of his league, out of his depth, way out of his comfort zone and way out of touch with the vast majority of the public.
It showed and I think anyone watching realised what a numpty waste of space he and his party is.
They (the BNP) will be around on the fringes like many other extremists and loonies, and we should leave them there and ignore them.
He was given an opportunity, and rightly so in my opinion, to speak and now he should be sent back to the fringes and ignored as he hasn't got much to say that most people want to hear.

The other party members are playing into his hands by trying to use the furore and media visibility to be seen to object to him. 

Just leave him alone and ignore him, don't give him the visibility he desires.

He should now be treated as a non story.

----------


## golach

> Same question, Helmand Province, DEAL OR NO DEAL?


If you are a serving service man, then you have to go, no choice.

Jack Straw's father was probably a conscript, as many were, many conscientious objectors did go to the front line and served with distinction, as Medics and such, they just would not or could not kill another human being. Many others were sent to work down the coal mines, now thats something I would not have liked or wanted to do.

----------


## tonkatojo

> Same question, Helmand Province, DEAL OR NO DEAL?


I suppose it would have to be a choice of sit back and let the rest do it or do some thing about it, the latter is my choice, so my kids wouldn't be embarrassed  as Straw was. 
A question for you, what is your position, hiding behind the fence or in front defending your way of life.

----------


## Geo

> No war during a war?


You said where would we be "if everyone was of the same ilk of Jack Straw's father?"  If everyone had been a concientious objector there would not have been a war as no one would have fought.

----------


## tonkatojo

> If you are a serving service man, then you have to go, no choice.
> 
> Jack Straw's father was probably a conscript, as many were, many conscientious objectors did go to the front line and served with distinction, as Medics and such, they just would not or could not kill another human being. Many others were sent to work down the coal mines, now thats something I would not have liked or wanted to do.


At the age of 13 I went down what was then a modern pit with my mates father to see the conditions they worked in, whilst down he showed us a seam that was worked before modernisation, now that was hard labour for those minors, neither was for me I hasten to add.

----------


## zeppellin

Hiding behind the fence keeping myself alive so I can continue to look after my family. If others want to put their lives at risk for their beliefs and on my behalf, that's their choice. I'll live with the fact that I'm still alive.

----------


## tonkatojo

> Hiding behind the fence keeping myself alive so I can continue to look after my family. If others want to put their lives at risk for their beliefs and on my behalf, that's their choice. I'll live with the fact that I'm still alive.



I thought as much, but every one to their own, and conscience. I take it you will not be remembering the 11/11 servicemen and women (emphasis on women)?.

----------


## zeppellin

I will and I thank them all. They exercised their right to fight and died because of their choice (can't see any positives here.)

----------


## telfordstar

Like a lamb to the slaughter.

----------


## tonkatojo

> I will and I thank them all. They exercised their right to fight and died because of their choice (can't see any positives here.)


You might see no positives, but me and perhaps others see your opposites.

----------


## zeppellin

> You might see no positives, but me and perhaps others see your opposites.


 You'll have to explain this to me, I have no idea what you are talking about and I suspect you dont either.

----------


## tonkatojo

> You'll have to explain this to me, I have no idea what you are talking about and I suspect you dont either.


Perhaps your right, but I will not be enlightening you.

----------


## Rheghead

I found it reprehensible that Jack Straw was commenting how unsuitable the BNP were using Churchill's image for their campaigns and trying to make out that the BNP if around in WW2 would have signed up to Hitler and yet his father would have handed Britain to Hitler on a plate. ::

----------


## Metalattakk

> I found it reprehensible that Jack Straw was commenting how unsuitable the BNP were using Churchill's image for their campaigns and trying to make out that the BNP if around in WW2 would have signed up to Hitler and yet his father would have handed Britain to Hitler on a plate.


I find it rather silly of you to visit the sins of the father upon the son (another mistake that Griffin also made last night).

How, in any way possible, is Jack Straw responsible for his own father's actions?

----------


## zeppellin

> Perhaps your right, but I will not be enlightening you.


I am right, you're sounding confused which confuses me. Not to enlighten me is your choice and you're entitled to it. Have the tablets kicked in yet?

----------


## tonkatojo

> I am right, you're sounding confused which confuses me. Not to enlighten me is your choice and you're entitled to it. Have the tablets kicked in yet?



No, I think it could be you on the pills, maybe valium or the like.

My medication is for medical complaints, not for hiding behind fences.  :Wink:

----------


## zeppellin

> I found it reprehensible that Jack Straw was commenting how unsuitable the BNP were using Churchill's image for their campaigns and trying to make out that the BNP if around in WW2 would have signed up to Hitler and yet his father would have handed Britain to Hitler on a plate.


 Still waiting for a reply, Helmand Province, DEAL OR NO DEAL.

----------


## Rheghead

> Still waiting for a reply, Helmand Province, DEAL OR NO DEAL.


It needs no reply because it was hyperthetical scenario.

----------


## zeppellin

> It needs no reply because it was hyperthetical scenario.


 Are tou conscientiously objecting to answer my question?

----------


## Rheghead

> Are tou conscientiously objecting to answer my question?


yeah sling me in your ignore list.

----------


## zeppellin

> It needs no reply because it was hyperthetical scenario.





> yeah sling me in your ignore list.


 I think I know the answer anyway.

----------


## Cazaa

> I find it rather silly of you to visit the sins of the father upon the son (another mistake that Griffin also made last night).
> 
> How, in any way possible, is Jack Straw responsible for his own father's actions?


Just what I was going to say (but you put it so much better).

My great-grandfather fought in the war and was killed within a few weeks of going to the 'front' (as a medic!) Not much use in the 'fight'? Do I still get to 'reap the rewards'?  

Were there any German concientious objectors? Do they get to 'reap the rewards' of 'our' _victory_?

----------


## Rheghead

> My great-grandfather fought in the war and was killed within a few weeks of going to the 'front' (as a medic!) Not much use in the 'fight'? Do I still get to 'reap the rewards'?  
> 
> Were there any German concientious objectors? Do they get to 'reap the rewards' of 'our' _victory_?


My grandfather also fought but lived.  My father's cousin was awarded the Victoria cross.  Would it run in the family?

----------


## zeppellin

> My grandfather also fought but lived. My father's cousin was awarded the Victoria cross. Would it run in the family?


Apparently not!!!!

----------


## Rheghead

> Apparently not!!!!


keep trolling

----------


## tonkatojo

> My grandfather also fought but lived.  My father's cousin was awarded the Victoria cross.  Would it run in the family?


When there are the likes of some armchair critics around, I wonder if they would do it for them again, I suspect there conscience would compel them to, and there are millions who are truly grateful.

----------


## Rheghead

> When there are the likes of some armchair critics around, I wonder if they would do it for them again, I suspect there conscience would compel them to, and there are millions who are truly grateful.


I very much agree, well said.

----------


## Cazaa

> When there are the likes of some armchair critics around, I wonder if they would do it for them again, I suspect there conscience would compel them to, and there are millions who are truly grateful.


Who ever said they weren't grateful? And how does this relate to Nick Griffin appearing on Question Time? Anyone who watched the programme is an armchair critic, surely?

Don't know who Rhegead is but as his signature states:

I'm cycling the Lands End to John O'Groats route on 1st October in aid of Alzheimer Scotland. You can sponsor me at
http://www.justgiving.com/RussHayley

I can only assume that he can't be much of an armchair critic given that he must have done something constructive for the country (unless the armchair was attached to the bike?)

----------


## tonkatojo

> Who ever said they weren't grateful? And how does this relate to Nick Griffin appearing on Question Time? Anyone who watched the programme is an armchair critic, surely?
> 
> Don't know who Rhegead is but as his signature states:
> 
> I'm cycling the Lands End to John O'Groats route on 1st October in aid of Alzheimer Scotland. You can sponsor me at
> http://www.justgiving.com/RussHayley
> 
> I can only assume that he can't be much of an armchair critic given that he must have done something constructive for the country (unless the armchair was attached to the bike?)


The quote was "some", try and follow the saga.  :Wink:  Are you French by any chance ?.

----------


## Alan16

> It is a fairly simple question, try answerring it.  I want to hear you address it.


There was never a question. You stated your ludicrous opinion, and I disagreed. I'm not avoiding any sort of question because there wasn't one.




> By the way, it is a matter of public record by his own admission, it is a shame that you ignore info depending what the source is without making your own mind up...
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-Justice.html


I assume you understand what a strawman is? I say this because you created a very good one there. At no point was I arguing whether or not he was actually in prison, I was arguing that your judgement of a man's character, a man you know very little about, based solely on a short article in the Daily Mail and on what a stupid little man said, is totally reprehensible. I think it is absolutely disgraceful. You know nothing about why he was a conscientious objector, yet you talk about him just giving Britain to Hitler?  




> No war during a war?


So which is it? Do you understand and are just acting stupid, or are you actually just too stupid to understand?




> My grandfather also fought but lived.  My father's cousin was awarded the Victoria cross.  Would it run in the family?


Honour and respect obviously do not run in your family.




> keep trolling


That is what you've been reduced to? Just like a certain man who was on a certain programme last night, you make statements then refuse to stand up for the criticism those comments rightly garner. 

You know people on here have annoyed me before, but your comments? I find them truly sickening.

----------


## zeppellin

> There was never a question. You stated your ludicrous opinion, and I disagreed. I'm not avoiding any sort of question because there wasn't one.
> 
> 
> 
> I assume you understand what a strawman is? I say this because you created a very good one there. At no point was I arguing whether or not he was actually in prison, I was arguing that your judgement of a man's character, a man you know very little about, based solely on a short article in the Daily Mail and on what a stupid little man said, is totally reprehensible. I think it is absolutely disgraceful. You know nothing about why he was a conscientious objector, yet you talk about him just giving Britain to Hitler? 
> 
> 
> 
> So which is it? Do you understand and are just acting stupid, or are you actually just too stupid to understand?
> ...


 And I thought it was just me.

----------


## davie

> Imigration is an emotive subject that will never have a solution that suits everyone. The current government policy is just about right, although there are a few areas which need attention


Now Zepp old bean, yesterday you were verging on sensible but now ?. Have the pills run oot ?.
You refer to current Government policy on Imigration - exactly what is that ??.

Questions in the Mother of Pig Troughs reveal that the current Goviement have records of 450,000 imigrants who have been refused leave to stay in the UK but have disappeared somewhere..
They also admit that there are an estimated 1,500,000 illegals floating around who have never even applied for citizenship.!
Not that I watch much television but there has been a programme about some Immigration outfit who chase up illegal immigrants. They find quite a few but are not allowed to bung them on a ferry to France and there are no facilities to lock them up until they can be repatriated. The majority get a wee slip of paper saying they are 'illegal' and to report to the Polis in a few weeks - guess what, 96% are never seen again.

Hows that for an immigration policy ??

----------


## tonkatojo

> And I thought it was just me.


No, your not that unique. Sadly. :Wink:

----------


## tonkatojo

> Now Zepp old bean, yesterday you were verging on sensible but now ?. Have the pills run oot ?.
> You refer to current Government policy on Imigration - exactly what is that ??.
> 
> Questions in the Mother of Pig Troughs reveal that the current Goviement have records of 450,000 imigrants who have been refused leave to stay in the UK but have disappeared somewhere..
> They also admit that there are an estimated 1,500,000 illegals floating around who have never even applied for citizenship.!
> Not that I watch much television but there has been a programme about some Immigration outfit who chase up illegal immigrants. They find quite a few but are not allowed to bung them on a ferry to France and there are no facilities to lock them up until they can be repatriated. The majority get a wee slip of paper saying they are 'illegal' and to report to the Polis in a few weeks - guess what, 96% are never seen again.
> 
> Hows that for an immigration policy ??


Aye that's pure Magic.  :Wink:

----------


## Leanne

So what does E&OE. stand for?

----------


## tonkatojo

> So what does E&OE. stand for?


I don't know, giss a clue.  :Wink:

----------


## davie

> You know people on here have annoyed me before, but your comments? I find them truly sickening.


Are you really 16 Alan ?. You sound more like an 9 year old who needs a good smacked erse.

Even if you are 36 I think you need to get out and live a little, maybe read another book or two, and get some common sense.

----------


## davie

> So what does E&OE. stand for?


Thats Errors and Omissions Excepted. So who has made an error or omission - bad form that, what ?

----------


## zeppellin

> Now Zepp old bean, yesterday you were verging on sensible but now ?. Have the pills run oot ?.
> You refer to current Government policy on Imigration - exactly what is that ??.
> 
> Questions in the Mother of Pig Troughs reveal that the current Goviement have records of 450,000 imigrants who have been refused leave to stay in the UK but have disappeared somewhere..
> They also admit that there are an estimated 1,500,000 illegals floating around who have never even applied for citizenship.!
> Not that I watch much television but there has been a programme about some Immigration outfit who chase up illegal immigrants. They find quite a few but are not allowed to bung them on a ferry to France and there are no facilities to lock them up until they can be repatriated. The majority get a wee slip of paper saying they are 'illegal' and to report to the Polis in a few weeks - guess what, 96% are never seen again.
> 
> Hows that for an immigration policy ??


 Depends where you get your information from. You have all the questions, do you have any answers? Who would make a better fist of it, the tories? Don't be fooled by their smoothe talking, it's easy to pontificate from their position. They made a hash of it before and if we are not careful next year, they'll do it again. Yes there are areas which could do with 'tightening' up, it's called 'work in progress.'

----------


## Leanne

> Thats Errors and Omissions Excepted. So who has made an error or omission - bad form that, what ?


Someone put a disclaimer on their post in grey size one type - this was at the end. Also stated "may contain nuts" - very appropriate for this threadッ

----------


## tonkatojo

> Depends where you get your information from. You have all the questions, do you have any answers? Who would make a better fist of it, the tories? Don't be fooled by their smoothe talking, it's easy to pontificate from their position. They made a hash of it before and if we are not careful next year, they'll do it again. Yes there are areas which could do with 'tightening' up, it's called 'work in progress.'


Where exactly is the work in progress, its a bit like the roadside signs, nowt happening.

----------


## davie

> Depends where you get your information from. You have all the questions, do you have any answers? Who would make a better fist of it, the tories? Don't be fooled by their smoothe talking, it's easy to pontificate from their position. They made a hash of it before and if we are not careful next year, they'll do it again. Yes there are areas which could do with 'tightening' up, it's called 'work in progress.'


My info comes from a document called Hansard. You maybe have a good point about the next 'Goviement' as undoubtedly they will be. I like the 'we' bit, certainly not me !
'Work in Progress', come on now, how long have this bunch of incompetents been in power ??. 
You also have a good point about answers and no, I dont have them all. But for a start hows about we take all these squaddies back from Afghanistan and put them on Border Patrol at Dover ?.
You will be blaming that bloke Gladstone next.

----------


## zeppellin

> My info comes from a document called Hansard. You maybe have a good point about the next 'Goviement' as undoubtedly they will be. I like the 'we' bit, certainly not me !
> 'Work in Progress', come on now, how long have this bunch of incompetents been in power ??. 
> You also have a good point about answers and no, I dont have them all. But for a start hows about we take all these squaddies back from Afghanistan and put them on Border Patrol at Dover ?.
> You will be blaming that bloke Gladstone next.


 You could join the BNP, if you are not already a member. This is exactly the point(s) Mr. Griffin was making last night. One good thing though, another closet racist steps forward. Shall I pull up the drawbridge for you or will you get it yourself?

----------


## davie

> You could join the BNP, if you are not already a member. This is exactly the point(s) Mr. Griffin was making last night. One good thing though, another closet racist steps forward. Shall I pull up the drawbridge for you or will you get it yourself?


Whats a closet racist ?.

I certainly have views on imigration which may well differ from your own and I am not ashamed of them. If that makes me a closet racist then I have no problem with your description. 

Likewise my views on the present Government and their blinkered supporters  are probably unprintable.

But join the BNP ?, I would rather join New Liebour.

----------


## zeppellin

> Whats a closet racist ?.
> 
> I certainly have views on imigration which may well differ from your own and I am not ashamed of them. If that makes me a closet racist then I have no problem with your description. 
> 
> Likewise my views on the present Government and their blinkered supporters are probably unprintable.
> 
> But join the BNP ?, I would rather join New Liebour.


 Your opinions do differ from mine so I suppose by your own admission you are a racist out of the closet and your avitar add fuel to the fire.

----------


## davie

No probs - but can you explain to me just what is a 'racist out of the closet' .

Wheres the fire ?

Oi, just had a thought about this - my best friend is a Dirty Weeker - how racist is that ??

----------


## Cedric Farthsbottom III

Think it was a programme all relating to the BNP.It seemed to all analyse Nick Griffin.The BBC ratings that bad?He gave his views.Its Jack Straw that came across as a nobody.Ye's are in government man,did ye sigh in relief cos ye knew all the publicity wid be on the BNP.I'm voting SNP next time so it disnae matter.

----------


## zeppellin

> No probs - but can you explain to me just what is a 'racist out of the closet' .
> 
> Wheres the fire ?


Sure, a racist is someone who shares your views on imigration and a racist out of the closet is someone who shares your views on imigration and expresses them publicly (after a period of keeping them quiet) on forums such as these. Understand now? 
Oh and the fire, well this may be on the erected crosses you and your ilk would like to see outside every imigrants house. 
We all need to be careful we dont allow society to spiral down to where it once was, exposing the likes of you plays a small but important part in the process. 
You get it now?

----------


## davie

Na - you have lost me.

What exactly have I said that leads you to think I am one of these, whatdoyecallits, out of the closet racists ??.

Is anyone who is not dumb enough to vote for New Liebour an out of the closet racist - is that it ?.

Is it that I do not believe that Jack Straw defacates gold bricks ?

Is it that I do not believe that Anthoney B Liar should be the next Pope ?

----------


## tonkatojo

We all need to be careful we dont allow society to spiral down to where it once was, exposing the likes of you plays a small but important part in the process. 
You get it now?[/QUOTE]


Would this mean that brave folk might have to go to war again, and some hide behind the fences ?.

----------


## Alan16

> Are you really 16 Alan ?. You sound more like an 9 year old who needs a good smacked erse.
> 
> Even if you are 36 I think you need to get out and live a little, maybe read another book or two, and get some common sense.


Oh please. How do I turn off these repetitive comments? Let's start at the beginning. I am not 16, I am 18. The 16 is from my house number when I lived in Wick. Perhaps I should change it to 6 or 26 now (my house number and flat number now I'm in Edinburgh). As for living a bit? Done/doing. Reading more books? Not sure that that is physically possible at the moment. Common sense? Where can I purchase some?

When you think of something interesting to say get back to me.




> ...Anthoney B Liar...


Do you have anything original to say? 

Anything at all?

----------


## davie

You sound like an 9 year old who needs a good smacked erse - do you mean that is not original ?. 

 Has it been said before,before,before,before ?.

----------


## Alan16

> You sound like an 9 year old who needs a good smacked erse - do you mean that is not original ?. 
> 
>  Has it been said before,before,before,before ?.


I was really talking about the childish response that you resorted to because you have nothing interesting to say.

----------


## davie

Alan18/16/6/26/9
Childish response - why then reference the smacked erse ?

You certainly have lived - all the way from Week to Edinburgh !!. Did you travel alone all by yourself or did someone from Week take your hand ?. 

Have they taught you the three times table down there in the city ?

Edinburgh, michty me, wonders will never cease !. Is that straight on at Inverness and then left at Perth, or is it right at Perth ?. 

When I sell the croftie maybe I will take a trip down there to see where all the clever bairnies are.

----------


## Metalattakk

Christ on a bike, you're all squabbling like bairns now. Gonnae gie it a rest, chaps, afore the Mods come running with the fire hose? Here's a thought - why not try getting the thread back on topic for a start.

And Rheggy - how about answering my question in post 87? You seem to have let that one slip the net for some reason.  :Wink:

----------


## davie

> Christ on a bike, you're all squabbling like bairns now.


pmsl at that - but you are quite correct. I start off to wind people up and forget when to stop. No more !

----------


## zeppellin

> Na - you have lost me.
> 
> What exactly have I said that leads you to think I am one of these, whatdoyecallits, out of the closet racists ??.
> 
> Is anyone who is not dumb enough to vote for New Liebour an out of the closet racist - is that it ?.
> 
> Is it that I do not believe that Jack Straw defacates gold bricks ?
> 
> Is it that I do not believe that Anthoney B Liar should be the next Pope ?


 Answers: 
(a) Posting the troops at Dover to stop them coming in ..........etc
(b) No
(c) No
(d) No
Answer (a) is enough to be going on with for now.
Comprende!!

----------


## Alan16

> Alan18/16/6/26/9
> Childish response - why then reference the smacked erse ?
> 
> You certainly have lived - all the way from Week to Edinburgh !!. Did you travel alone all by yourself or did someone from Week take your hand ?. 
> 
> Have they taught you the three times table down there in the city ?
> 
> Edinburgh, michty me, wonders will never cease !. Is that straight on at Inverness and then left at Perth, or is it right at Perth ?. 
> 
> When I sell the croftie maybe I will take a trip down there to see where all the clever bairnies are.


You know, I'm slightly confused. I'm not really sure what your problem is with me? Is it that me and the hundreds of other people my age who share the lecture theatre with me are cleverer than you? Is that it? Well you'll probably type that there is more to knowledge than the stuff they teach us at uni, and you're probably right: screw technology, we don't need it. It's not as if this conversation was dependent on it... Wait a second! But anyway, there is no point in such a conversation - neither of us would be stating original arguments. 

I don't know why you dislike me. And I don't care. I'd suggest that you don't bother responding to this, because otherwise it'll just go on and on. But really neither of us are probably mature enough to give it up - we're both going to want the last word. Oh well.

----------


## zeppellin

> pmsl at that - but you are quite correct. I start off to wind people up and forget when to stop. No more !


 Apology accepted!!

----------


## davie

> . But for a start hows about we take all these squaddies back from Afghanistan and put them on Border Patrol at Dover ?.
> You will be blaming that bloke Gladstone next.


Where have I said anything about "stopping anyone coming in".

In case you had not noticed the troops who are being killed and maimed in Afghanistan were sent there by your late Presidente B Liar (comprende),  on the pretense that they would be helping to rebuild the country. So what the hell would be wrong with having them on border patrol duties at Dover or any other Channel port. Are you saying that your beloved 'Party' has so emasculated them that they would be ineffective in stopping terrorists and illegal immigrants from entering the country ?. 

Now if that is racist I plead guilty as charged.

----------


## zeppellin

Original quote from Davie: Oi, just had a thought about this - my best friend is a Dirty Weeker - how racist is that ??[/quote]
Not racist at all, just plain patronising. I suppose we cant expect anything else form the likes of you.

----------


## davie

[QUOTE=Alan16;610922]You know, I'm slightly confused. I'm not really sure what your problem is with me? Is it that me and the hundreds of other people my age who share the lecture theatre with me are cleverer than you? 
QUOTE]

Oh ma bairn,
You assume so much. How on earth did you get the idea that you are cleverer than me or anyone else ! 
You are 16 or is it 18, what degree have you attained or have you only attended a few lectures ?. Some of us were at Edinburgh and other Universities long before you were a twinkle in your father's eye and I hope to God we did not have the  arrogance that you display. 
I wonder in your long 16 or 18 years if you have ever voted, or spent time in a war zone, or done a days work in the real world. In fact have you actually acheived anything apart from your colossal conceit.

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## davie

> Original quote from Davie: Oi, just had a thought about this - my best friend is a Dirty Weeker - how racist is that ??


Not racist at all, just plain patronising. I suppose we cant expect anything else form the likes of you.[/QUOTE]


Are you one of these physco analysists or what - 'the likes of you' without even a consultation is a pretty good diagnosis. You must be as clever as Alan 9/16/18/6/26.

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## zeppellin

> Where have I said anything about "stopping anyone coming in".
> 
> In case you had not noticed the troops who are being killed and maimed in Afghanistan were sent there by your late Presidente B Liar (comprende), on the pretense that they would be helping to rebuild the country. So what the hell would be wrong with having them on border patrol duties at Dover or any other Channel port. Are you saying that your beloved 'Party' has so emasculated them that they would be ineffective in stopping terrorists and illegal immigrants from entering the country ?. 
> 
> Now if that is racist I plead guilty as charged.


 Why else would you deploy the troops there?
The troops are there to defeat the Taliban and Al Queda and while they are there, they are stopping these terrorists from travelling the globe and carrying out attrocities like 9/11 (New York, Washington and Pensylvania) and 7/7 London. We can all sleep a little easier at night because of this. You would rather leave these terrorists to jump on planes and use them as missiles against us which is what will happen if the tories have their way. They, as do you, wish to withdraw the troops for 'other purposes.' No doubt your policy matches theirs....a right wing agenda!!

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## Rheghead

> I find it rather silly of you to visit the sins of the father upon the son (another mistake that Griffin also made last night).
> 
> How, in any way possible, is Jack Straw responsible for his own father's actions?


Sorry old bean missed this.

I went to a meeting once about Victoria crosses and the regiment secretary gave a talk about what makes someone act bravely.  The end conclusion of doing a selfless act to do right is a culmination of his education, sense of right and wrong brought onto the person by family, school, peers etc.

The same can be said of acting selfishly, stupidly and cowardly etc.

I'm placing the sins of the father on Straw, because I think Straw acted cowardly last night as his father did.  It was easy of Straw to punch from behind a well orchestrated stitch-up and come out with sound bites to avoid debating real policy of the BNP.  What's that law about introducing Hitler in chatrooms?  He did that last night and lost credibility.

Instead of engaging the BNP 'ON THE ISSUES', they continue to slur them and dishonour themselves, trolling on TV basically! :: 

THe real eejits are not Griffin etc but the voters who vote for them for their policies.

If we treat the BNP like any other party without the hype then they will lose a lot of their appeal and fade away

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## zeppellin

> Not racist at all, just plain patronising. I suppose we cant expect anything else form the likes of you.


 
Are you one of these physco analysists or what - 'the likes of you' without even a consultation is a pretty good diagnosis. You must be as clever as Alan 9/16/18/6/26.[/quote]
Correct, and we are both more intelligent than you.

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## zeppellin

> Sorry old bean missed this.
> 
> I went to a meeting once about Victoria crosses and the regiment secretary gave a talk about what makes someone act bravely. The end conclusion of doing a selfless act to do right is a culmination of his education, sense of right and wrong brought onto the person by family, school, peers etc.
> 
> The same can be said of acting selfishly, stupidly and cowardly etc.
> 
> I'm placing the sins of the father on Straw, because I think Straw acted cowardly last night as his father did. It was easy of Straw to punch from behind a well orchestrated stitch-up and come out with sound bites to avoid debating real policy of the BNP. What's that law about introducing Hitler in chatrooms? He did that last night and lost credibility.
> 
> Instead of engaging the BNP 'ON THE ISSUES', they continue to slur them and dishonour themselves, trolling on TV basically!
> ...


 Still not answering the question then!!

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## Rheghead

> Still not answering the question then!!


just grow up, honestly a simple request... ::

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## Alan16

> just grow up, honestly a simple request...


Surely the simplest request possible is for someone to answer a question...

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## zeppellin

> just grow up, honestly a simple request...


 Oooohh!! I'm off before I say something and get the naughty step again. See ya!!

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## davie

Sorry, I had to go in for ma tea. 

I am not allowed oot later so feel free to give Rheggy a kicking, it must be his turn.

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## Bazeye

All this thread needs now is Percy and Gene. That would be entertaining.

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## morvenview

> 'Them,' I think an explanation is required here. Isn't this the kind of stuff Mr. Griffin peddles? However you, like Mr. Griffin, have the right to freedom of speech as long as it is not inciteful or illegal. We also have the right to reply, via our freedom of speech, to ridicule and/or simply dismiss these kind of rantings as ill informed and ignorant clap-trap. I'll, as you might expect, choose the former.


 By saying them i meant the people that come to this country to live off us tax payers. If any person comes into britain and pays the tax i have no complaints. Am i a racist for being anti non tax payer? We pay for criminals we pay for spongers and we pay for illegals! Got the papers let them in. No papers turn them back. Our government is to soft on this.

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## Metalattakk

> Sorry old bean missed this.
> 
> I went to a meeting once about Victoria crosses and the regiment secretary gave a talk about what makes someone act bravely.  The end conclusion of doing a selfless act to do right is a culmination of his education, sense of right and wrong brought onto the person by family, school, peers etc.
> 
> The same can be said of acting selfishly, stupidly and cowardly etc.


I'm not entirely sure that applies, at all. Seems to me that you simply have a grudge against Straw, and one that doesn't fit into this discussion.




> I'm placing the sins of the father on Straw, because I think Straw acted cowardly last night as his father did.  It was easy of Straw to punch from behind a well orchestrated stitch-up and come out with sound bites to avoid debating real policy of the BNP.  What's that law about introducing Hitler in chatrooms?  He did that last night and lost credibility.
> 
> Instead of engaging the BNP 'ON THE ISSUES', they continue to slur them and dishonour themselves, trolling on TV basically!


Everyone knows that last night wasn't about debating 'the issues' with Nick Griffin and the BNP. It was Griffin's first time on national TV under a free debate. Why is everyone surprised that he was hung out to dry? Or do you really think that all they wanted to debate was the BNP's fiscal policy? 
There's plenty time for all that in his future appearances on QT surely?

And to be honest, vilifying Straw because of his father's choices seriously doesn't help your, or Nick Griffin's cause.




> THe real eejits are not Griffin etc but the voters who vote for them for their policies.


There's hardly any evidence that people voted for the BNP because of their policies. The only idiot I've seen under the banner of the BNP is the bumbling, ill-educated bigot himself, Griffin, last night.

And I'm deliberately not counting you in that, Reg.  :Wink: 




> If we treat the BNP like any other party without the hype then they will lose a lot of their appeal and fade away


When they start behaving like 'any other party' then we can come back to your point.

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## Stavro

> ... the troops who are being killed and maimed in Afghanistan were sent there by your late Presidente B Liar (comprende),  on the pretense that they would be helping to rebuild the country.



I notice that the heroin trade is now back to 96%+ of what it was before the legitimate, ousted government of Afghanistan came to power. Could this, and the oil/gas pipeline, have been the REAL reason that New Labour sent the British Army to Afghanistan?

Glad to see that the hand-picked audience on Question Time were focused on more important world issues.

Griffin was set up of course.

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## Stavro

> Why else would you deploy the troops there?
> The troops are there to defeat the Taliban and Al Queda and while they are there, they are stopping these terrorists from travelling the globe and carrying out attrocities like 9/11 (New York, Washington and Pensylvania) and 7/7 London. We can all sleep a little easier at night because of this. You would rather leave these terrorists to jump on planes and use them as missiles against us which is what will happen if the tories have their way. They, as do you, wish to withdraw the troops for 'other purposes.' No doubt your policy matches theirs....a right wing agenda!!



Good grief, do you really believe this spoon-fed nonsense?   ::

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## Rheghead

> I'm not entirely sure that applies, at all. Seems to me that you simply have a grudge against Straw, and one that doesn't fit into this discussion.
> 
> When they start behaving like 'any other party' then we can come back to your point.


Probably right there, Straw is a smarmist in amongst what should be the 'decent party' long forgotten.

Funnily enough, the tories portrayed the labour party as a foreign power apologist, during the 1970s and 80s, like what Straw tried to do to the BNP last night   Total load of poo if you ask me in both decades.  End conclusion is that we are all subject to the Zeitgeist and are different under other circumstances and times.

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## Moira

> ....... It was Griffin's first time on national TV under a free debate....


This was not a "free debate" at all.  It was a contrived production.  I was totally disappointed.

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## Metalattakk

> This was not a "free debate" at all.  It was a contrived production.  I was totally disappointed.


What exactly were you expecting?

As I said before, there was little chance they would be discussing the BNP's fiscal policies, or their general policies on education or their stance on EU issues.

Obviously as it was their first appearance on the major public stage, their dubiously nefarious practices and the previous reprehensible statements of their odious leader would be discussed and rightly so.

And Griffin failed majestically to defend his and his party's past and present stance on any of the questions posed to him. If ever the over-used ultra-modern phrase "EPIC FAIL" was most apt, it is most apt now. He showed himself as no more than a bumbling, shaky, sweaty, nervous, sniggering wee boy amongst a group of seasoned, adult, intelligent and erudite politicians.

And predictably Lo! And Behold! Because it all didn't go his way, he's now claiming that it's all been a set-up.

Give me strength.  ::

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## Rheghead

> What exactly were you expecting?


You're right, I expected a contrived production but what was exactly stopping them from making a balanced debate? ::

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## Metalattakk

> You're right, I expected a contrived production but what was exactly stopping them from making a balanced debate?


Did you read all of my post, or just the bit you quoted?  ::

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## Rheghead

> Did you read all of my post, or just the bit you quoted?


All of it.  So exactly what was stopping the BBC from making a more balanced debate?  They could of if they really wanted to.

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## Metalattakk

It would have been absolutely and completely remiss of the BBC not to have addressed the points they did, in the way they did, upon the first appearance of the BNP in the domain of public debate.

What's so difficult to understand about that?

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## Rheghead

> It would have been absolutely and completely remiss of the BBC not to have addressed the points they did, in the way they did, upon the first appearance of the BNP in the domain of public debate.
> 
> What's so difficult to understand about that?


OK ::  why would it have been absolutely and completely remiss of the BBC not to have addressed the points they did, in the way they did??

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## Metalattakk

*sigh*

Because as a broadcaster paid for by the public, they have a moral duty to reflect the public's views, and in doing so (by asking Griffin the questions that the public wanted to ask him) they have justified the validity of inviting Griffin on to their platform, and that of the programme itself.

Question Time is not a platform for politicians, it is a platform for the public to question politicians.

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## tonkatojo

> *sigh*
> 
> Because as a broadcaster paid for by the public, they have a moral duty to reflect the public's views, and in doing so (by asking Griffin the questions that the public wanted to ask him) they have justified the validity of inviting Griffin on to their platform, and that of the programme itself.
> 
> Question Time is not a platform for politicians, it is a platform for the public to question politicians.


Your quite correct, but doesn't the chairman usually move on when questions become repetitive ??, so as to cover more subjects for debate.

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## Rheghead

> *sigh*
> 
> Because as a broadcaster paid for by the public, they have a moral duty to reflect the public's views, and in doing so (by asking Griffin the questions that the public wanted to ask him) they have justified the validity of inviting Griffin on to their platform, and that of the programme itself.
> 
> Question Time is not a platform for politicians, it is a platform for the public to question politicians.


Sadly your response is full of inaccuracies and so the BBC fell well short of the mark of their own mission statement...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/info/purpose/

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## Metalattakk

> Your quite correct, but doesn't the chairman usually move on when questions become repetitive ??, so as to cover more subjects for debate.


I've no idea. Perhaps you should be asking David Dimbleby. It was far from a 'usual' circumstance though, surely?

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## Metalattakk

> Sadly your response is full of inaccuracies /


No it isn't, and you saying so doesn't make it so.

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## Rheghead

> No it isn't, and you saying so doesn't make it so.


Just read it, you seem like a reasonably intelligent chap.  What you are proposing is what Griffin would like for the BBC mission statement, reflecting the views of the majority in power an' all that.  By your own words?

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## Bazeye

Seems the BBC's tactics backfired. Results of a survey just released have indicated that 22% of the people asked would now seriously consider voting for the BNP in local, national and euro elections. It was 6% in May and 0.something per cent last year.

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## Rheghead

> Seems the BBC's tactics backfired. Results of a survey just released have indicated that 22% of the people asked would now seriously consider voting for the BNP in local, national and euro elections. It was 6% in May and 0.something per cent last year.


That is what I've feared, typical pc bunch they are. ::

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## Metalattakk

> What you are proposing is what Griffin would like for the BBC mission statement, reflecting the views of the majority in power an' all that.


I am proposing nothing.

I seriously have no idea how you come to that conclusion. Is this simply a method of yours, to try to paint someone with an opposing view as the bad guy?

Let me make this clear: I have no particular political views, only views about things that irk me. Griffin and the BNP irk me. People who visit the sins of the father upon the son irk me, and both you and Griffin fall into that category.

You have failed massively to justify your demonisation of Jack Straw based upon the actions of his father. Everything you've said since means nothing, and is only your way of trying to deflect and find blame somewhere else.

I've asked you the question, and you've failed to answer it. I have no further desire to be irked. I'm out.

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## Rheghead

> I am proposing nothing.


You're saying that the BBC should reflect the views of the Public, clearly that is wrong according to their own mission statement.

You said that the BBC would be remiss if it hadn't conducted Questiontime in the way it did. According to the BBC's mission statement it should be impartial and independent which respects the rights and views of _everyone_.  Clearly this didn't happen, anyone should have seen that.

Spitting the dummy changes nothing.

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## Metalattakk

For crying out loud, I _proposed_ absolutely nothing. I never said the BBC _should_ be doing anything.  :: 

I made statements.

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## benji

...with the amount of name calling and childish remarks Percy must be laughing his head off!!!

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## Moira

> What exactly were you expecting?.....


I was hoping for a much more open, reasonable debate than the one presented. Shame on me for mixing up my hopes with my expectations. :: 



> You're right, I expected a contrived production but what was exactly stopping them from making a balanced debate?


Time & public opinion?

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