# General > General >  New Referendum Poll - How does it look now?

## Tubthumper

Let's have a look at the blend now, see if it's changed any?

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## mi16

No undecided option this time?

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## PantsMAN

> No undecided option this time?


No need, their vote won't count on the day unless they make a decision.

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## mi16

> No need, their vote won't count on the day unless they make a decision.


Nevertheless they may sitll be undecided at the moment, the poll is not for another fortnight.

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## Phill

What's the poll for, is something happening?

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## Tubthumper

Simple and straightforward.

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## Shaggy

no point, most of the nay sayers have been banned from the org so it wont be a fair poll

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## Rheghead

> no point, most of the nay sayers have been banned from the org so it wont be a fair poll


Nah, they've all still got a lurking login for the classifieds

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## Tubthumper

Whatever you say.

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## Heisenberg

> Nah, they've all still got a lurking login for the classifieds


10 out of 10 for cynicism.

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## Even Chance

Excellent. Got my Yes vote in on the poll. The old poll was a little outdated, as I personally know loads of folk that used to be a definate No, but are now very firmly Yes. 
Isn't it strange how folk only appear to be moving one way:- towards the light at the end of the tunnel!

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## mi16

> Excellent. Got my Yes vote in on the poll. The old poll was a little outdated, as I personally know loads of folk that used to be a definate No, but are now very firmly Yes. 
> Isn't it strange how folk only appear to be moving one way:- towards the light at the end of the tunnel!


with many of the No voters banned from here, this poll is pointless.
However there is only one important poll.

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## Tubthumper

> with many of the No voters banned from here, this poll is pointless.However there is only one important poll.


 Whatever you choose to believe is fine with me.

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## Heisenberg

> Excellent. Got my Yes vote in on the poll. The old poll was a little outdated, as I personally know loads of folk that used to be a definate No, but are now very firmly Yes. Isn't it strange how folk only appear to be moving one way:- towards the light at the end of the tunnel!


 Not really true as I know a few Yes voters that have switched to No side now, mainly due to the arrogance of Mr Salmond, so I guess there could be a balanced switch. The 'light' at the end of the YES vote, is an oncoming trains in my opinion. BTW there really is only one poll that matters, Don't forget to vote now.

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## Even Chance

> Not really true as I know a few Yes voters that have switched to No side now, mainly due to the arrogance of Mr Salmond, so I guess there could be a balanced switch. The 'light' at the end of the YES vote, is an oncoming trains in my opinion. BTW there really is only one poll that matters, Don't forget to vote now.


Thankfully not everyone has your cynical views, as the Poll is indeed showing. I was speaking personally, about my own friends and family when I referred to the changeover, as I stated in my post. I dont know anyone that has swapped from Yes to No personally. I hope your friends realise that they arent voting for Salmond, but for Independence. Theres a HUGE difference.

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## Even Chance

> with many of the No voters banned from here, this poll is pointless.
> However there is only one important poll.


 You know, I have been firmly under the belief that there was a No bias on here for the last year or so., We all have our own point of view regarding that im sure, depending on our agendas. Suggesting a media bias however is actually rather laughable, when everyone bar the blinkered can blatantly see a UK wide media bias towards No.

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## mi16

> You know, I have been firmly under the belief that there was a No bias on here for the last year or so., We all have our own point of view regarding that im sure, depending on our agendas. Suggesting a media bias however is actually rather laughable, when everyone bar the blinkered can blatantly see a UK wide media bias towards No.


who suggested a media bias?

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## Even Chance

> who suggested a media bias?


Eh, you did.....

If im not wrong, Caithness.org is Media.....right...yep.

You said, "with many of the No voters banned from here, this poll is pointless.
However there is only one important poll."

Therefore you stated that you believe the Org has indeed executed a bias by banning No voters.

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## Tubthumper

No bickering please. Simple & straightforward debate.

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## mi16

> Eh, you did.....
> 
> If im not wrong, Caithness.org is Media.....right...yep.
> 
> You said, "with many of the No voters banned from here, this poll is pointless.
> However there is only one important poll."
> 
> Therefore you stated that you believe the Org has indeed executed a bias by banning No voters.


The definition of media, directly lifted from the Oxford Dictionary (online)
"The main means of mass communication (television, radio and newspapers) regarded collectively."

So no, Caithness.org is not media, next you will be telling me you are a journalist by virtue of your postings on here!!

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## Westward

All done & voted at this end..definite YES..all round  :Smile:

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## Tubthumper

Now I'm going to be away for a few days. I don't want to hear about any bickering or scrapping while I'm gone. Be nice to each other and play bonny. OK?

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## dragonfly

I've voted NO in this poll but must admit I'm more undecided at the moment...was staunchly NO at the beginning but now wondering if it would be better as an independent country....will keep on trying to read unbiased reports about it and make my mind up when faced with the bit of paper before me....heart or head?

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## mi16

There is an (supposedly) unbiased ebook compiled by Sir Tom Hunter on www.scotlandseptember18.com
I have not had  chance to read I yet, but deffo will.

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## Even Chance

Heres another exceptional read for any undecided voter.

http://theweebluebook.com/

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## mi16

> Heres another exceptional read for any undecided voter.
> 
> http://theweebluebook.com/


perhaps not so impartial though

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## squidge

Come along to the cafe events happening tomorrow. 10am PPP cafe at Wick and 2 pm Pentland Hotel. No guest speakers just a quick hello, then talk to other people and ask questions about independence. Yes, no, undecided are all welcome  :Smile:

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## dragonfly

> Come along to the cafe events happening tomorrow. 10am PPP cafe at Wick and 2 pm Pentland Hotel. No guest speakers just a quick hello, then talk to other people and ask questions about independence. Yes, no, undecided are all welcome


wish I could but working tomorrow so won't be able to

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## mi16

> Come along to the cafe events happening tomorrow. 10am PPP cafe at Wick and 2 pm Pentland Hotel. No guest speakers just a quick hello, then talk to other people and ask questions about independence. Yes, no, undecided are all welcome


I think I have paint I need to watch drying

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## PantsMAN

> Not really true as I know a few Yes voters that have switched to No side now, mainly due to the arrogance of Mr Salmond, 
> SNIP
> Don't forget to vote now.


When, oh when are people going to grow up and realise this is not about Salmond or the SNP, IT'S ABOUT SCOTLAND!

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## mi16

> When, oh when are people going to grow up and realise this is not about Salmond or the SNP, IT'S ABOUT SCOTLAND!


give it another month or so

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## Rheghead

'Blossom' by Lesley Riddoch is an inspiring read.  It leans towards Yes but it totally lacks any SNP/nationalist propaganda.  It is available on kindle

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## Heisenberg

> When, oh when are people going to grow up and realise this is not about Salmond or the SNP, IT'S ABOUT SCOTLAND!


 Grown up or not these 'people' are still voters.

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## mi16

> Grown up or not these 'people' are still voters.


 Was it not the fat man that got the non grown ups to vote in the referendum.

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## Rheghead

> Was it not the fat man that got the non grown ups to vote in the referendum.


Are you referring to the same non-grown ups whom the Labour party and Libdems have a policy to also be given the vote?  If that is the case then it is pretty shallow of them to oppose them having a say in indyref.

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## Heisenberg

> Are you referring to the same non-grown ups whom the Labour party and Libdems have a policy to also be given the vote?  If that is the case then it is pretty shallow of them to oppose them having a say in indyref.


 Surely they're not going to give the vote to Labour and Libdem supporters, whatever next, tut tut.

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## Scout

> When, oh when are people going to grow up and realise this is not about Salmond or the SNP, IT'S ABOUT SCOTLAND!


That is rubbish it is all about the SNP going in to history books like Tony Blair who does not give a damn what happens why should they if it all goes wrong they will just blame someone like Tories fault  I really love the part they say if you vote yes you will never need to vote for Tories again. You can do that now with devolution that is why we got the SNP in Scotland and why people are not happy with way Scotland has been run.

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## Heisenberg

> That is rubbish it is all about the SNP going in to history books like Tony Blair who does not give a damn what happens why should they if it all goes wrong they will just blame someone like Tories fault  I really love the part they say if you vote yes you will never need to vote for Tories again. You can do that now with devolution that is why we got the SNP in Scotland and why people are not happy with way Scotland has been run.


 Well said scout. It is most definately Alex Salmonds baby, he has been spouting waffle about independence since the 70's, I honestly think if Scotland wanted independence there would be a better chance without him heading it up. Or better still if the referendum question was asked to the whole UK, I think it would be a landslide yes.

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## PantsMAN

So why has Scotland returned an SNP-led government through proportional representation?

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## neilsermk1

I cant help but feel that the YES vote will not win the vote. 
The No campaign will lose it. 
Whilst I am against the breakup of the UK I feel the No campaign has been totally unconvincing.  
Mind you the jam tomorrow of the YES campaign leaves me cold.  
I have not seen any form of credible business plan for Scotland PLC.

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## Tubthumper

I have it on good authority that 5 individuals  have been banned from this site recently.

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## Tubthumper

5 banned but I'm not sure how many were No voters.

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## Scout

> So why has Scotland returned an SNP-led government through proportional representation?


That is what I have just said SNP are in power but very cleverly they  blame  at Westmister yet they have had almost 10 years to make good and people seem to think they have not other wise people would not moan about Scotland and how it has gone. However blame Alex  Salmond he leads us to beleive it is the Westminster at fault in spite of the SNP having power to raise tax and run NHS. They pledged they would keep the boat yards going now the only one left has sunk funny thing has any one notice you do not see about that on the TV much not good image for SNP for yes vote.

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## David Banks

In an effort to get a balance of opinions, I ended coming across a site with the banner:

No Better Together

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## Rheghead

The support for a No vote seems to be haemorrhaging at an alarming rate as more people see the benefits of independence and the scaremongering and fibs of the No campaign get exposed for what they are.

http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/...s-yes-support/

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## Scout

> The support for a No vote seems to be haemorrhaging at an alarming rate as more people see the benefits of independence and the scaremongering and fibs of the No campaign get exposed for what they are.
> 
> http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/...s-yes-support/


So why is there not another country like Norway or any other country that SNP points out has free Health service like our one Fact they can not make it pay for unless tax payers are made to pay more.

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## Heisenberg

> The support for a No vote seems to be haemorrhaging at an alarming rate as more people see the benefits of independence and the scaremongering and fibs of the No campaign get exposed for what they are.http://news.stv.tv/scotland-decides/...s-yes-support/


Ah rheghead, I've just worked out who you really are ...... You are non other than the reincarnation of ww2 Lord HawHaw.................... crackle crackle "Today Allied troops have suffered heavy losses" crackle crackle "independence is imminent" crackle crackle.

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## Rheghead

> Ah rheghead, I've just worked out who you really are ...... You are non other than the reincarnation of ww2 Lord HawHaw.................... crackle crackle "Today Allied troops have suffered heavy losses" crackle crackle "independence is imminent" crackle crackle.


Good to see we can all keep a sense of humour.  :Smile:

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## gleeber

If the result of the referendum is a no vote I will be mildly disappointed. If it's a yes vote i'll be delighted but apprehensive. It wont be easy to transform to an independant country. If it's a no vote not much will change although I suspect some more powers will be devolved from Westminster to the Scottish parliament. Its a good little system and I can understand the unionist position. Its a nice little comforter in a universal sense. 
I think sooner or later Scotland will become an independant country. Even without oil. We have to proper in Scotland or perish. Another 100 years or so and depending on there being a world to live in the Scottish people will chance it. It's what countries do. They govern themselves. Maybe the time has come. It would be interesting times in Scotland and Westminster if it's a yes vote.

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## Rheghead

Skynews is openly declaring that the Yes campaign is ahead in the polls  51% Yes 49% No.

It is happening folks.

http://news.sky.com/story/1331427/sc...ign-takes-lead

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## Heisenberg

> Skynews is openly declaring that the Yes campaign is ahead in the polls  51% Yes 49% No.It is happening folks.http://news.sky.com/story/1331427/sc...ign-takes-lead


Oh well, if sky news are declaring 51% - 49% in favour of YES vote, then not much point in proceding with the rest of the referendum then. Sky news and rheghead bring you the all new independent Scotland.

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## Moira

Out of respect to Tubthumper I've voted "No" on this poll.  That is my true feeling towards the Referendum and that will be my vote on 18th September.

Mibbies Aye
Mibbies Naw
Which way do you wanta go?

Whatever the result, I will never forget how personal and divisive this whole process has been and that's a fact.  I hope a resounding NO result will be announced on 19th September.

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## squidge

Moira... I am sorry that you feel it's been divisive. I have found being involved I. This campaign, empowering, optimistic and hopeful. People are campaigning to make things better for all of us and the excitement is palpable.

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## Scout

> Moira... I am sorry that you feel it's been divisive. I have found being involved I. This campaign, empowering, optimistic and hopeful. People are campaigning to make things better for all of us and the excitement is palpable.


If people really feel Scotland is not doing so well now with devloution then why would it be any better with indpenedence. With all this wealth that Scotland meant to have then why has it not worked now with SNP in power. Do not forget if yes vote wins then it will be the SNP in power who will be negotiation with pound and others like EU. They can not deal with boat yard in Scotland to keep that alive let alone keeping pound and dealing with EU.

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## Rheghead

> Moira... I am sorry that you feel it's been divisive. I have found being involved I. This campaign, empowering, optimistic and hopeful. People are campaigning to make things better for all of us and the excitement is palpable.


I echo your sentiments here.  For the first time in Scotland's history there has been a groundswell of interest in politics, it has got most people tuned into thinking about what is best for themselves and for their country.  Quite frankly, a No vote will take us back to widespread apathy and chronic disempowerment.

This popular interest in Scotland is _precious_ but at the same time it is _fragile_, we should nurture it and keep it going by voting Yes.

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## Rheghead

Seemingly the Better Together are in meltdown following the recent collapse of their support in the polls.  I see rumours that they will try to do a 11th hour deal towards a federalised UK to save their campaign.  But I have read that would be against the rules of purdah.  

One thing is certain though, a Yes vote for independence will give us 100% powers to Scotland.  Gulp, what a responsibity, are you ready for it? A feint heart an all that!  ::

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## Alrock

Not Long Now...

http://www.lost4815162342.com/flash/...olls%20Open%3A

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## Scout

> Seemingly the Better Together are in meltdown following the recent collapse of their support in the polls.  I see rumours that they will try to do a 11th hour deal towards a federalised UK to save their campaign.  But I have read that would be against the rules of purdah.  
> 
> One thing is certain though, a Yes vote for independence will give us 100% powers to Scotland.  Gulp, what a responsibity, are you ready for it? A feint heart an all that!


Are you ready for your tax to go up and no longer have £1 then as you say go for it.

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## Rheghead

> Are you ready for your tax to go up and no longer have £1 then as you say go for it.


How come? On Day 1 of independence and sharing the £, we will not be paying for Trident, House of Lords and the pay, privileges and perks of 59 Westminster MPs.

With that amount of savings we can either increase public spending, give tax breaks or pay off more of our share of the national debt.

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## dozy

Let's be real ,the Westminster Government will never let the YES side win . They have far to much to lose, they'll pull every dirty trick in the book an more to keep the Scots in their place . So let's all learn to live with the chains we were born with.

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## Rheghead

I hear that there are tory plans to reward Nigel Farage with the post of Deputy Primeminister in 2015 if there is a hung parliament again which I think is highly likely.  That is an awful risk for Scotland.

With a Yes vote, we will only have to suffer those fools gladly for one year until independence finally takes place.

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## Scout

> How come? On Day 1 of independence and sharing the £, we will not be paying for Trident, House of Lords and the pay, privileges and perks of 59 Westminster MPs.
> 
> With that amount of savings we can either increase public spending, give tax breaks or pay off more of our share of the national debt.


Make this clear you will not be sharing the pound full stop. You will become different country like all other countries they have their own currancy and so will Scotland if you divorce your wife you do not think you will still have the same bank account would you. As for MP I agree to point but you still will pay for the ones in Scotland who knows if this will not increase of numbers MSP what about running of the building in Scotland all this has to be paid for. I can not get over people in Scotland if you really think your tax will not go up I think you are not living in the real world.

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## mi16

Of course it will increase, there is no other way

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## Rheghead

> Make this clear you will not be sharing the pound full stop. You will become different country like all other countries they have their own currancy and so will Scotland if you divorce your wife you do not think you will still have the same bank account would you. As for MP I agree to point but you still will pay for the ones in Scotland who knows if this will not increase of numbers MSP what about running of the building in Scotland all this has to be paid for. I can not get over people in Scotland if you really think your tax will not go up I think you are not living in the real world.


Well I have been convinced by several sources, Alistair Darling, leaked sources in Westminster and the Yes Campaign that refusal to share the £ is a bluff as otherwise would mean rUK will take the extra burden of Scotland's share of the national debt.  If you think that is going to happen then I'm afraid it isn't the Yessers that aren't living in the real world.

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## Heisenberg

> Well I have been convinced by several sources, Alistair Darling, leaked sources in Westminster and the Yes Campaign that refusal to share the £ is a bluff as otherwise would mean rUK will take the extra burden of Scotland's share of the national debt.  If you think that is going to happen then I'm afraid it isn't the Yessers that aren't living in the real world.


 You may have convinced, fortunately not everyone is so naïve.

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## squidge

Perhaps Heisenberg you can explain why YOU think the numbers don't add up. Why you think Scotland can't afford to make independence work and why you don't believe there will be a currency union. It might be useful too if you explain why the other options for currency are not going to work either.

That would really add to the debate.  :Smile:

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## Scout

> You may have convinced, fortunately not everyone is so naïve.


I amazed Scotland in debt with all this oil I thought Scotland could easy pay the debt off. You can't have your cake and eat it. You want independence then that means you go on your own including raising money to make it pay plus your own currency like any other country.

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## Scout

> Perhaps Heisenberg you can explain why YOU think the numbers don't add up. Why you think Scotland can't afford to make independence work and why you don't believe there will be a currency union. It might be useful too if you explain why the other options for currency are not going to work either.
> 
> That would really add to the debate.


I may be able to answer the last one about currency every one trades in the world and has known pound it may be weak in parts but almost good through out unlike the dollars worth less then the pound and so on. This will happen with what ever Alex Salmond comes up with and we still not really know. Your pound you have be in your pocket will be worth less remember common market I am sure there are lots of older people will.

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## weeker2014

Scout what I really wish for, is that you learn the use of punctuation, as your argument may mean a lot more if it was legible!!!

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## Scout

> Scout what I really wish for, is that you learn the use of punctuation, as your argument may mean a lot more if it was legible!!!


Sorry  :Smile:  But I think people know what I am saying, even if they do not like to see the truth.

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## BetterTogether

Not long ago ( in 1999) SNP leader Alex Salmond described the pound as a 'millstone around Scotlands neck' and derided the currency in 2009. Today he is desperate to keep it, realising that an independent currency would be so volatile and problematic that it would dissuade investors, reduce trade with the rest of the world and threaten to turn Scotland into an economic backwater. 
The European Union has effectively ruled out Scotland joining the Euro ( or even the EU ) for many years, leaving Salmond exposed and blustering..

Scottish homeowners need to be aware that a vote for independence will have dramatic consequences for your monthly mortgage repayments. The Chancellor has made it quite clear along with all the other main party leaders that keeping the pound is not an option open to Alex Salmond should he succeed in breaking Scotland away from the 300 yr old union. Adopting a policy of ''sterlingnisation'', whereby the Scots keep the pound without a formal currency union, is unlikely and furthermore would prevent Edinburgh from joining the European Union. 
Scotland would possibly have to create an entirely new currency, which would present the potentially nightmare scenario of anyone living north of the River Tweed with a mortgage that is denominated in sterling. 
If a new independent Scottish currency were allowed to float freely on the international markets, then millions of Scottish homeowners could eventually see their monthly payments increase due to the significant foreign exchange rate risk that they would be exposed to. They would also be exposed to Bank of England increasing interest rates south of the border, further adding to the cost of servicing Scottish mortgage debt irrespective of the independent country's new set of economic circumstances.
''Terms and conditions of a mortgage loan would be likely to remain the same but, if the loan payments are taken in sterling, then suddenly the borrower has a major conversion issue if they're suddenly being paid in the new Scottish Currency'' said David Hollingsworth, from broker London and County Mortgages. ''They would not only be subject to loan fluctuations but also exchange rate volatility''.
Although in theory an independent Scotland would have 18 months to negotiate an amicable and orderly divorce from the rest of the UK, there is every possibility that such a separation would be far more acrimonious.
That would certainly be the case if a yes vote triggered a political crisis in Westminster. In these circumstances there is every chance that a nationalist Scottish government would be forced to move quickly to cobble together a new currency and central bank.
Such a move would leave many Scottish homeowners bobbing around like tiny corks on the international currency ocean.
Based on the assumption that a new Scottish currency, if allowed to float freely on international markets, would depreciate by around 10pc immediately against the pound, that could see the proportion of mortgage payments as a percentage of income in Scotland jump significantly.
For example, a Scottish homeowner with a £1000 a month mortgage payment could suddenly have to find an additional £100 overnight just to cover the short-term cost of buying sterling.
'' It is probably a situation that most Scottish homeowners would never have expected to be in''. Said Howard Archer, chief UK and European economist at IHS global.
'' In the early days, at least, a new Scottish currency would certainly be weaker than sterling and longer -term interest rates in Scotland would have to be higher than in the UK''
There is also the added uncertainty of whether Banks would want to continue lending to the Scottish Market until a new independent governemtn, if a yes vote succeeds, negotiates its share of the UKs public debt and decides how financial services should be regulated north of the border. 
At present, mortgage lending in the UK is regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority, but how such services would be overseen in an independent Scotland is an unknown.
''For many home-buyer, you may find that some lenders just wont offer mortgages in Scotland anymore. There is a high chance that smaller lenders would review their position in an independent Scotland'' said Hollingworth

Many banks have already indicated that a Yes vote would prompt them to re-evaluate their business in Scotland and first-time buyers could find themselves in a situation where it is virtually impossible to initially obtain a mortgage denominated in a new Scottish currency.
They would also lose access to the existing Government backed mortgage guarantees under the help to buy and those Scots who have already bought a house using the programme- which is underwritten by the UK taxpayer- would be left in the extraordinary position of owing a foreign government for part of their home.
Big banks are understandably horrified by the prospect of Scotland breaking away from the union and although none has commented directly on currency risks that could arise from a yes vote, they are clearly concerned by the possible financial impact on their businesses.
The Australian owners of Glasgow-based Clydesdale said last month that they were making contingency plans and warned that independence ''may give rise to significant additional costs and risks''. 
Writing in the daily telegraph last month, Douglas Flint, chairman of HSBC, also warned that Scotland  faces a flight of capital should it break away, and he stressed that the country derives its strength from being part of the UK
It is difficult to imagine how major banks such as HSBC would adjust their lending criteria,especially for first time buyers in Scotland. should independence- with its added economic and political risks- become a reality in 10 days time.
Furthermore,how banks would account for home and personal loan defaults on existing sterling denominated debts north of the border should Scotland have to create a new currency is entirely uncharted territory. 
So Scottish voters get ready to decide on the fate of our historic union there is so much more at stake than nationalistic pride.
The Scots are betting the roofs over their heads.

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## BetterTogether

The SNPs main economic platform is that Scotland should own the revenue from North sea oil and gas, making it a petro-dollar paradise equivelant to Norway.Although they have similar populations (5.05 million for Norway, 5.3 Million for Scotland), the hydrocarbon revenues are massively different. Norway's government gathered $40billion in 2013(according to the BBC) while the UK had $10.8 billion (according to the financial times), a fall of 40 percent from 2012. Current predictions? further falls, to £3.3 billion ($5.5 billion) in 2016/17 according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies. 
Theres no amount of careful stewardship that is going to magic $5.5 billion into $40 billion, when many of the North Sea Rigs are at the end of their life and production levels are falling.
Scotlands banks have become a byword for chaos and catastrophic losses, after the hubris of the 1990s turned into the near- collapse of the mid 2000s with the massive rescue packages needed for Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds (both of them based in Edinburgh). The SNP announced in November 2013 that, under future independence arrangements, the Bank of England' would become lender of the last resort' following any future crisis.
This would mean taxpayers in the rest of the UK bailing out Scottish banks, despite them being in an '' independent ''country.
This evident nonsense of this positions seems to be lost on the Scottish National Party. 
As one website remarked, Alex Salmond believes he still has the right to use gym equipment, despite giving up his membership. 
' I have been a member for many,many years,so why they think everything in the club is for the exclusive use of the remaining members is completely beyond me,' the website imagined him wondering.
The UK has sunk an awful long way since the height of its empire in the 19th century, but it remains the worlds sixth-largest economy and the second largest in Europe behind Germany. This confers all kind of useful benefits, including low interest rates, a permanent seat at the UN security council, leadership in NATO and a major role at G20 conferences in the WTO, among many others.
For centuries,Scots have been at the heart of this economic presence, so instead of a seat at this high global table, Scotland seeks to become what ?
the new Slovakia (population 5.4million average income $24000)? its an instructive parallel. Slovakia became independent of the Czech Republic in 1993 because the Czechs wanted rid of their poorer partner under the forced communist marriage of Czechoslovakia. The SNP, by contrast is under the illusion that Scotland would emerge a wealthier nation than it is today by ditching its richer partner. The logic is perverse.
At least Slovakia is part of the European Union, with akk tge benefits that brings. An Independent Scotland could not guarantee that its citizens would be able to live and work in the rest of the UK..
Once the oil runs out, what does Scotland have that will sustain its faboulsously wealthy future ? Whisky, but even with this contribution of £3 billion ( $4.8 Billion) across the economy, as estimated by the Scotch Whisky Association, its small beer. IT, Finance - to the country would be diminished by independence for all the reasons listed above. 
The Insurer Standard Life has already warned it could relocate its headquarters in the event of a Yes vote for independence, endangering 5,000 Scottish Jobs. Many more companies are doubtless thinking along the same lines.
You will have heard lots of scaremongering from yes supporters but non of them are able to provide the sensible answers to those important questions you need answering before voting.
What about currency. still no real answer from the first Minister, what about your pensions, your benefits, your place within the EU, Nato, all these questions have yet to be answered by Nationalist who are intent on cutting of their nose to spite their face for perceived centuries of exploitation and domination. The reality is we have grown strong working together all this time together we are stronger, richer, more stable and able to weather storms.

As we are aware the latest poll for the first time shows the SNP ahead but it should be remember this is the first and only poll that shows this result. It is also worth noting that this is a subscribed poll. The suspicion is that yes voters have targetted this poll to give themselves a biased result as all other polls still remain fairly stable.

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## Scout

> The SNPs main economic platform is that Scotland should own the revenue from North sea oil and gas, making it a petro-dollar paradise equivelant to Norway.Although they have similar populations (5.05 million for Norway, 5.3 Million for Scotland), the hydrocarbon revenues are massively different. Norway's government gathered $40billion in 2013(according to the BBC) while the UK had $10.8 billion (according to the financial times), a fall of 40 percent from 2012. Current predictions? further falls, to £3.3 billion ($5.5 billion) in 2016/17 according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies. 
> Theres no amount of careful stewardship that is going to magic $5.5 billion into $40 billion, when many of the North Sea Rigs are at the end of their life and production levels are falling.
> Scotlands banks have become a byword for chaos and catastrophic losses, after the hubris of the 1990s turned into the near- collapse of the mid 2000s with the massive rescue packages needed for Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds (both of them based in Edinburgh). The SNP announced in November 2013 that, under future independence arrangements, the Bank of England' would become lender of the last resort' following any future crisis.
> This would mean taxpayers in the rest of the UK bailing out Scottish banks, despite them being in an '' independent ''country.
> This evident nonsense of this positions seems to be lost on the Scottish National Party. 
> As one website remarked, Alex Salmond believes he still has the right to use gym equipment, despite giving up his membership. 
> ' I have been a member for many,many years,so why they think everything in the club is for the exclusive use of the remaining members is completely beyond me,' the website imagined him wondering.
> The UK has sunk an awful long way since the height of its empire in the 19th century, but it remains the worlds sixth-largest economy and the second largest in Europe behind Germany. This confers all kind of useful benefits, including low interest rates, a permanent seat at the UN security council, leadership in NATO and a major role at G20 conferences in the WTO, among many others.
> For centuries,Scots have been at the heart of this economic presence, so instead of a seat at this high global table, Scotland seeks to become what ?
> ...


At last,someone has said something senciable. :Smile:

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## Heisenberg

Thanks bettertogether, I was just going to say that.

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## Phill

Westminster is falling apart.
The Eton elite are crapping themselves.

Delicious!

----------


## Moira

> Moira... I am sorry that you feel it's been divisive. I have found being involved I. This campaign, empowering, optimistic and hopeful. People are campaigning to make things better for all of us and the excitement is palpable.


Squidge, don't be sorry.  Just know that my head, heart and beliefs follow a different path from yours.  My experience of the whole Referendum debate has obviously been totally different to yours too. 

As I've previously stated, I'll be voting NO on the 18th September. :-)

----------


## golach

Well said better together , I am voting NO

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## Kevin Milkins

I sometimes think that I am a member of a different org to most posters. ::

----------


## Shaggy

> The SNPs main economic platform is that Scotland should own the revenue from North sea oil and gas, making it a petro-dollar paradise equivelant to Norway.Although they have similar populations (5.05 million for Norway, 5.3 Million for Scotland), the hydrocarbon revenues are massively different. Norway's government gathered $40billion in 2013(according to the BBC) while the UK had $10.8 billion (according to the financial times), a fall of 40 percent from 2012. Current predictions? further falls, to £3.3 billion ($5.5 billion) in 2016/17 according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies. 
> Theres no amount of careful stewardship that is going to magic $5.5 billion into $40 billion, when many of the North Sea Rigs are at the end of their life and production levels are falling.
> Scotlands banks have become a byword for chaos and catastrophic losses, after the hubris of the 1990s turned into the near- collapse of the mid 2000s with the massive rescue packages needed for Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds (both of them based in Edinburgh). The SNP announced in November 2013 that, under future independence arrangements, the Bank of England' would become lender of the last resort' following any future crisis.
> This would mean taxpayers in the rest of the UK bailing out Scottish banks, despite them being in an '' independent ''country.
> This evident nonsense of this positions seems to be lost on the Scottish National Party. 
> As one website remarked, Alex Salmond believes he still has the right to use gym equipment, despite giving up his membership. 
> ' I have been a member for many,many years,so why they think everything in the club is for the exclusive use of the remaining members is completely beyond me,' the website imagined him wondering.
> The UK has sunk an awful long way since the height of its empire in the 19th century, but it remains the worlds sixth-largest economy and the second largest in Europe behind Germany. This confers all kind of useful benefits, including low interest rates, a permanent seat at the UN security council, leadership in NATO and a major role at G20 conferences in the WTO, among many others.
> For centuries,Scots have been at the heart of this economic presence, so instead of a seat at this high global table, Scotland seeks to become what ?
> ...




Why not post your statement in your OWN words instead of copying & pasting from a number of sources. Also when you do copy & paste, you are cutting parts of the original text out. Not good at all. 
Wonder what David Nicholson has to say about you using his words??

----------


## Shaggy

And here is the original post from David Nicholson in March this year. 

I cover media, technology and business and how they intersect 
Speaking as a Scot who lives in England, I have divided loyalties in this debate.

But speaking as an economic commentator, I am amazed at the naivety and  short sightedness of the Scottish National Party (SNP).  Heres 5  reasons why.

1          Currency confusion

Not long ago (in 1999), SNP leader Alex Salmond described the pound as a  millstone around Scotlands neck and derided the currency in 2009.   Today he is desperate to keep it, realising that an independent currency  would be so volatile and problematic that it would dissuade investors,  reduce trade with the rest of the world and threaten to turn Scotland  into an economic backwater.

The European Union has effectively ruled out Scotland joining the euro  (or even the EU) for many years, leaving Salmond exposed and blustering.


2          Delusions of oil grandeur

The SNPs main economic platform is that Scotland should own the revenue  from North Sea oil and gas, making it a petro-dollar paradise  equivalent to Norway.  Although they have similar populations (5.05  million for Norway, 5.3 million for Scotland), the hydrocarbon revenues  are massively different.  Norways government gathered $40 billion in  2013 (according to the BBC) while the UK made $10.8 billion (according  to the Financial Times), a fall of 40 per cent from 2012.  Current  predictions?  Further falls, to £3.3 billion ($5.5 billion) in 2016/17,  according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies.

Theres no amount of careful stewardship that is going to magic $5.5  billion into $40 billion, when many of the North Sea rigs are at the end  of their life and production levels are falling.

3          Financial mismanagement

Scotlands banks have become a byword for chaos and catastrophic losses,  after the hubris of the 1990s turned into the near-collapse of the  mid-2000s with massive rescue packages needed for Royal Bank of Scotland  and Lloyds (both of them based in Edinburgh).  The SNP announced in  November 2013 that, under future independence arrangements, the Bank of  England would become a lender of the last resort following any future  crises.

This would mean taxpayers in the rest of the UK bailing out Scottish  banks, despite them being in an independent country.  The evident  nonsense of this position seems to be lost on the Scottish National  Party.

As one website remarked, Alex Salmond believes he still has the right to  use gym equipment, despite giving up his membership.  I have been a  member for many, many years, so why they think everything in the club is  for the exclusive use of the remaining members is completely beyond  me, the website imagined him wondering.

4          Loss of credibility

The UK has sunk an awful long way since the height of empire in the 19th  century, but it remains the worlds sixth-largest economy and the  second-largest in Europe behind Germany.  This confers all kinds of  useful benefits, including low interest rates, a permanent seat at the  UN Security Council, leadership in NATO, a major role at G20 conferences  and in the WTO, among many others.

For decades, even centuries, Scots have been at the heart of this  economic presence, as Chancellors of the Exchequer (Gordon Brown,  Alastair Darling under Labour, Norman Lamont under the Tories) or as  Prime Minister (Brown again, Tony Blair  even David Cameron has  Scottish roots).  They also helped to build and maintain the Empire.

So instead of a seat at this high global table, Scotland seeks to  become what?  The new Slovakia (population 5.4 million, average income  $24,000)?  Its an instructive parallel.  Slovakia became independent of  the Czech Republic in 1993 because the Czechs wanted rid of their  poorer partner under the forced communist marriage of Czechoslovakia.   The SNP, by contrast, is under the illusion that Scotland would emerge a  wealthier nation than it is today by ditching its richer partner.  The  logic is perverse.

At least Slovakia is part of the European Union, with all the benefits  that brings.  An independent Scotland could not guarantee that its  citizens would be able to live and work in the rest of the UK.

5          Lack of natural resources

Once the oil runs out, what does Scotland have that will sustain its  fabulously wealthy future?  It has whisky, but even with this  contribution of £3 billion ($4.8 billion) across the economy, as  estimated by the Scotch Whisky Association, its small beer.  The  ability to attract major industries  manufacturing, IT, finance  to  the country would be diminished by independence, for all the reasons  listed above.

The insurer Standard Life has already warned that it could relocate its  headquarters in the event of a Yes vote for independence, endangering  5,000 Scottish jobs.  Many more companies are doubtless thinking along  the same lines.

I once asked a politician who represented the Western Isles of Scotland  why people living in these remote and hostile places should receive  subsidies.  To keep a diversity of culture, he replied.  You could say  the same of Scotland as a whole.  The rest of the UK is content to  subsidise this rich and ancient culture.  But take away that subsidy and  there would likely be massive depopulation.  Go to Scotland and  theres nobody there, as the countrys best-known comic Billy Connolly  succinctly put it.

All these arguments pale into nothing for nationalists, whose blood is  up and who scent a kind of revenge on the English for centuries of (as  they see it) domination and exploitation.  Theyre determined to cut off  their nose to spite their face.



*              *             *              *              *

As a Scot, a yes vote at independence would feel like my parents  divorcing.  As an economist, it would feel like a regressive,  small-minded, self-inflicted act of exile from the 21st century.



So enough of the rubbish and tell us YOUR thoughts!

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## Rheghead

Speaking to a lady whose husband works for CNC and she says she is a total No.  I cannot get around her thinking because Dounreay still needs security regardless of whether there is a Yes vote or no vote and her husband's pension is set up between agreement with the pensionee and the pension company.

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## weeker2014

> The SNPs main economic platform is that Scotland should own the revenue from North sea oil and gas, making it a petro-dollar paradise equivelant to Norway.Although they have similar populations (5.05 million for Norway, 5.3 Million for Scotland), the hydrocarbon revenues are massively different. Norway's government gathered $40billion in 2013(according to the BBC) while the UK had $10.8 billion (according to the financial times), a fall of 40 percent from 2012. Current predictions? further falls, to £3.3 billion ($5.5 billion) in 2016/17 according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies. 
> Theres no amount of careful stewardship that is going to magic $5.5 billion into $40 billion, when many of the North Sea Rigs are at the end of their life and production levels are falling.
> Scotlands banks have become a byword for chaos and catastrophic losses, after the hubris of the 1990s turned into the near- collapse of the mid 2000s with the massive rescue packages needed for Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds (both of them based in Edinburgh). The SNP announced in November 2013 that, under future independence arrangements, the Bank of England' would become lender of the last resort' following any future crisis.
> This would mean taxpayers in the rest of the UK bailing out Scottish banks, despite them being in an '' independent ''country.
> This evident nonsense of this positions seems to be lost on the Scottish National Party. 
> As one website remarked, Alex Salmond believes he still has the right to use gym equipment, despite giving up his membership. 
> ' I have been a member for many,many years,so why they think everything in the club is for the exclusive use of the remaining members is completely beyond me,' the website imagined him wondering.
> The UK has sunk an awful long way since the height of its empire in the 19th century, but it remains the worlds sixth-largest economy and the second largest in Europe behind Germany. This confers all kind of useful benefits, including low interest rates, a permanent seat at the UN security council, leadership in NATO and a major role at G20 conferences in the WTO, among many others.
> For centuries,Scots have been at the heart of this economic presence, so instead of a seat at this high global table, Scotland seeks to become what ?
> ...


I dosed off through that spout of utter nonsense and woke up for the last paragraph which says it all.  Are you trying to tell me that the polls nearest the vote when all of the arguments have been made are not to be listened to because they tell the current TRUTH rather than many many many polls when the arguments hadn't been fully made.  I run a successful business and in life I have always found it safest to use an initial reaction of NO until I have fully understood all of the arguments and information as it tends to get me in a lot less trouble, which appears to be what MANY MANY voters have done until they have had time to digest everything.  The final vote on the 18th of this month is the one that counts and without any doubt that is going to be a triumphant YES, Scotland should, would and could be an independent country!!!!!!  YES SCOTLAND!!!

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## budgeJ

Perhaps someone with the ability to do such can explain why a post in response to "Moira" at post #76 was removed without any explanation ?

Makes you wonder what else has been 'redacted' in the interests of controlling debate.

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## Bobinovich

> Perhaps someone with the ability to do such can explain why a post in response to "Moira" at post #76 was removed without any explanation ?
> 
> Makes you wonder what else has been 'redacted' in the interests of controlling debate.


It is possible for the poster to edit or remove their own post within 48 hours according to Niall's explanation *here*

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## David Banks

. . . the triumph over it. The brave (person) is not (one) who does not feel afraid, but (one) who conquers that fear.

David Hume observed that:  Liberty of any kind is never lost all at once.

Pierre Trudeau:  (whose mother, Grace Elliott, was of both French and Scottish descent), and, on accepting election as leader of the Liberal party, said: "Canada must be a just society."

I wish my fellow Scots courage as you make your decision on the 18th., and wisdom in the many decisions you will make thereafter.

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## BetterTogether

This weekend saw much jubilation from yes supporters as they managed for the first time to gain a slight lead in one Poll, this morning saw the reality of what that means for the average person in Scotland, a drop in the value of Sterling against the Dollar to a 10 month low, companies with major interests in Scotland share prices have taken major hits RBS down 2.565%, Lloyd s Banking Group down 2.703%, Standard Life down 2.257%, BAE systems down 1.821 and Babcock down 2.891%. This means millions wiped off the share value  of companies within hours of the markets responding to just the thought of a Yes vote.
Westminster is still saying there will be No currency union and the reality is the SNP have failed to tell the electorate what a realistic plan B is. Every possible alternative is a fail. If the SNP goes down the sterlingnisation route the entry into the EU will not happen, along with that goes all the subsidies for farmers, crofters. No more hand outs for roads and infrastructure. Forming a new currency from scratch is going to risk mortgages, loans, and every aspect of every working persons life.
Financial Services within Scotland employs 100,000 people within Scotland, and contributes £7 Billion pounds to Scotland's GDP what happens with no currency union.
The Energy sector contributes £18.5 billion pounds to the Scottish economy approximately 25% of GDP what happens when all the subsidies for renewable s from the EU vanish will anyone want to buy expensive but green Scottish energy.
The fact is independence is a huge risk yes Scotland can become independent that isn't the question in reality, what the future for the people is the question how much will it cost and what will the difference be to the person in the street. 
Today we see the first signs of what is likely to happen financial pain for all concerned. 
Before you even consider voting yes how much are you prepared to pay for it £100, £200 or more each and every month.
Alex Salmond can laugh and chuckle as much as he likes but it is we the people who will pay for his ineptitude and lack of detail.
All the vitriol from online cybernats who cajole and bully people into pledging for yes wont mean a thing once the vote is cast and Scotland cant go back.

The question isnt whether Scotland can be independent it should be what will be the cost of independence. We all work hard and have bills to pay will the yes supporters of the org be popping round to help people out with cash bailouts when the reality of how much independence will cost begins. 
Will Squidge be there to put her hand in her purse to support the pesnioners the first time buyers, the shop workers whose bills go up because of a political dream.
Will Weeker2014 be lowering his prices at his business to make sure that the people most directly affected dont pay for a political dream.

We all know the answer like haar on a sunny day they will go quiet and drift away and we the people will be left with the increasing bills to pay the lack of certainty for our childrens futures instead of being part of the 6th largest economy in the world, the 2nd largest in Europe we will be left with years of uncertainty and financial pressure on those least able to afford it.
Where will all the money come from for this free and fair society when currency union doesnt occur. Nowhere are the explanations for any of these fundamental questions answered. 
That is why we are Better Togther

----------


## BetterTogether

> . . . the triumph over it. The brave (person) is not (one) who does not feel afraid, but (one) who conquers that fear.”
> 
> David Hume observed that:  “Liberty of any kind is never lost all at once.”
> 
> Pierre Trudeau:  (whose mother, Grace Elliott, was of both French and Scottish descent), and, on accepting election as leader of the Liberal party, said: "Canada must be a just society."
> 
> I wish my fellow Scots courage as you make your decision on the 18th., and wisdom in the many decisions you will make thereafter.


Fine quotes David will you be there with your wallet open to help the elderly when their fuel bills rise due to financial incompetence of the SNP and their failed attempt to bully a currency union out of the UK ? or like so many activists is it all fancy rhetoric with no in-depth knowledge of the consequences

----------


## BetterTogether

> I dosed off through that spout of utter nonsense and woke up for the last paragraph which says it all.  Are you trying to tell me that the polls nearest the vote when all of the arguments have been made are not to be listened to because they tell the current TRUTH rather than many many many polls when the arguments hadn't been fully made.  I run a successful business and in life I have always found it safest to use an initial reaction of NO until I have fully understood all of the arguments and information as it tends to get me in a lot less trouble, which appears to be what MANY MANY voters have done until they have had time to digest everything.  The final vote on the 18th of this month is the one that counts and without any doubt that is going to be a triumphant YES, Scotland should, would and could be an independent country!!!!!!  YES SCOTLAND!!!


So as a self professed successful businessman can we have a guarantee that you will assist each and every person who is directly affected by the turmoil in prices and financial uncertainty after a yes vote, shall we call it the put your money where your mouth is pledge. That may help those undecided voters when you show the strength of your convictions, if you're so sure yes is the way to go i cant see you'll have a problem showing we orgers how sure you are about it being a good idea.

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## BetterTogether

> Speaking to a lady whose husband works for CNC and she says she is a total No.  I cannot get around her thinking because Dounreay still needs security regardless of whether there is a Yes vote or no vote and her husband's pension is set up between agreement with the pensionee and the pension company.


That may be for the very same reasons as the £ fell on the markets and millions where wiped off share prices in companies with a high Scottish exposure.You seem to have a limited understanding of the financial world are you prepared to help this lady if she runs into difficulties with her bills when prices rise after independence. Can we have a money where your mouth is pledge from you Rheg if youre so certain she should vote yes just do it think how good you'll feel not seeing a pensioner suffer for your political dreams.

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## Mr Z

Some good points better together but markets vary all the time. With the UK in so much debt and borrowing heavily - a situation it cannot maintain and when they can borrow no more the Uk will go into meltdown- watch the share prices fall then, watch the value of the pound plummet just like what has happened in other countries recently. Would it not be better if Scotland was separate from that meltdown. I would rather pay a bit more if necessary for a better future which I had more control over than to be left with nothing. Its all theories as no one really knows what the future holds either way. The above is only my thoughts you don't have to believe them just like I don't have to believe all of yours (copied from others).

----------


## Shaggy

> Fine quotes David will you be there with your wallet open to help the elderly when their fuel bills rise due to financial incompetence of the SNP and their failed attempt to bully a currency union out of the UK ? or like so many activists is it all fancy rhetoric with no in-depth knowledge of the consequences


Do you have an in-depth knowledge of the consequences? if so, please post here and enlighten us. Please though, do *ensure it is 100% truth*, not supposition, baseless facts or worse still - copy/pasted words from other people.
Look forward to your response on Scotland's future.

----------


## BetterTogether

> Perhaps Heisenberg you can explain why YOU think the numbers don't add up. Why you think Scotland can't afford to make independence work and why you don't believe there will be a currency union. It might be useful too if you explain why the other options for currency are not going to work either.
> 
> That would really add to the debate.


Tell me Squidge are you prepared to take the money where your mouth is pledge. Make a pledge here today that you're prepared to help build that free and fair society you keep talking about. If the plans for independence end up costing us the people more money because the SNP has not got a plan B and cannot get into the EU because sterlingisation wont fulfill entry criteria. Will you personally pledge to help out each and every person you've persuaded to vote yes when the hardships hit their homes. Political speak is easy its cheap put it where it really counts and if you're that sure that Independence is really the right way to go. PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS.

Or as i suspect is it all just rhetoric and you'll find an excuse to flannel your way out of it with excuses.

----------


## Bobinovich

In response to BetterTogether's various scaremongering posts, no-one is saying it's going to be plain sailing after a Yes vote - there will be tough times ahead without a doubt, but then being part of the Union has resulted in tough times (are you familiar with the banking failures, subsequent recession, and the drive for austerity?) so can you put your money where your mouth is and say we're definitely going to be any safer remaining in the Union?

----------


## BetterTogether

Can you explain where the scaremongering is Bobinovich its very easy to use such language but the reality is any person with some common sense should be scared at the concept of voting for Independence when we have not even the slightest clue what the currency would be.  You seem to think that obfuscation is the answer keep beating your drum and all will be well, but ive yet to see a single yes voter answer the question

What will our currency be in an Indpendent Scotland ?
How will we remain part of the EU if we use sterlingnisation and have no central Bank ?
How will an Independent Scotland pay for all the social improvements if it doesnt have a currency union ?
Come on Bob dont be faert answer the questions and be a man about it. The way youre blethering youre sounding like you havent got the answers .

Oh wait thats because you havent got the answers.

----------


## BetterTogether

> Do you have an in-depth knowledge of the consequences? if so, please post here and enlighten us. Please though, do *ensure it is 100% truth*, not supposition, baseless facts or worse still - copy/pasted words from other people.
> Look forward to your response on Scotland's future.


Maybe you can answer the questions ive posted to Bob or like i suspect you haven't go the answers either. 

Enough of the Obfuscation answer the questions.

or dont you actually know what youre voting for ???

----------


## Shaggy

> Can you explain where the scaremongering is Bobinovich its very easy to use such language but the reality is any person with some common sense should be scared at the concept of voting for Independence when we have not even the slightest clue what the currency would be.  You seem to think that obfuscation is the answer keep beating your drum and all will be well, but ive yet to see a single yes voter answer the question
> 
> What will our currency be in an Indpendent Scotland ?
> How will we remain part of the EU if we use sterlingnisation and have no central Bank ?
> How will an Independent Scotland pay for all the social improvements if it doesnt have a currency union ?
> Come on Bob dont be faert answer the questions and be a man about it. The way youre blethering youre sounding like you havent got the answers .
> 
> *Oh wait thats because you havent got the answers.*



pot, black and kettle spring to mind.

----------


## Tubthumper

A lot of material pumping out of Better Together this morning. Panic?

----------


## BetterTogether

Why Panic when not a single yes voter can answer a very simple question

what will the currency be in an independent Scotland ?

----------


## Shaggy

> Why Panic when not a single yes voter can answer a very simple question
> 
> what will the currency be in an independent Scotland ?


So is that your answer to why Scotland should stay in the UK? 

*SAD.   JUST SAD*

----------


## Tubthumper

> Why Panic when not a single yes voter can answer a very simple questionwhat will the currency be in an independent Scotland ?


The currency will be the pound sterling. Are you deaf or daft?

----------


## squidge

And again 

Lets see.  In the event that WM maintains its economically suicidal  position of no currency union, Scotland will have a range of options to  choose from all of which are available for anyone to google - if you  want the links let me know.

The answer to which currency Scotland will have if it doesnt get a  currency union ( i would prefer that we didnt have one to be honest) is  that we would have OUR OWN currency and we that might be whatever the  hell we want it to be.   

The effect on every man, woman and child in Scotland is that they would  still ahve money in their bank, they would still have wages form their  employer, they would still get their benefits, their pensions and their  dividends, they would still be able to pay their bills, they would still  be able to go to the shops and do their shopping, they would still be  able to get tax rebates and buy stuff on amazon and ebay.

All currency options have pros and cons and they are laid out here for  all to see. This image is taken from the Fiscal commissions working  group report and illustrates the options quite nicely 

Attachment 25767

It might be worth telling us what currency YOU think an Independent Scotland would have Better Together.

----------


## Scout

> And again 
> 
> Lets see.  In the event that WM maintains its economically suicidal  position of no currency union, Scotland will have a range of options to  choose from all of which are available for anyone to google - if you  want the links let me know.
> 
> The answer to which currency Scotland will have if it doesnt get a  currency union ( i would prefer that we didnt have one to be honest) is  that we would have OUR OWN currency and we that might be whatever the  hell we want it to be.   
> 
> The effect on every man, woman and child in Scotland is that they would  still ahve money in their bank, they would still have wages form their  employer, they would still get their benefits, their pensions and their  dividends, they would still be able to pay their bills, they would still  be able to go to the shops and do their shopping, they would still be  able to get tax rebates and buy stuff on amazon and ebay.
> 
> All currency options have pros and cons and they are laid out here for  all to see. This image is taken from the Fiscal commissions working  group report and illustrates the options quite nicely 
> ...


What about the interest rates? What about your house rates, will these stay the same. Currency changes in value, so would Scotland currencey change, your money would not be the same value.

----------


## weeker2014

> Tell me Squidge are you prepared to take the money where your mouth is pledge. Make a pledge here today that you're prepared to help build that free and fair society you keep talking about. If the plans for independence end up costing us the people more money because the SNP has not got a plan B and cannot get into the EU because sterlingisation wont fulfill entry criteria. Will you personally pledge to help out each and every person you've persuaded to vote yes when the hardships hit their homes. Political speak is easy its cheap put it where it really counts and if you're that sure that Independence is really the right way to go. PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS.Or as i suspect is it all just rhetoric and you'll find an excuse to flannel your way out of it with excuses.


Why don't you take on the challenge BetterTogether? Although the sad reality is that it will be hitting your pocket heavily from tomorrow as you pay for all the poor sods facing eviction over the bedroom tax and standing outside the foodbank dishing out aid like a 3rd world country!!! Although within 2 days of you accepting the challenge you too will be facing those dilemmas as you have no money left to house or feed yourself!!!

----------


## Bobinovich

> Can you explain where the scaremongering is Bobinovich its very easy to use such language but the reality is any person with some common sense should be scared at the concept of voting for Independence when we have not even the slightest clue what the currency would be.  You seem to think that obfuscation is the answer keep beating your drum and all will be well, but ive yet to see a single yes voter answer the question
> 
> What will our currency be in an Indpendent Scotland ?
> How will we remain part of the EU if we use sterlingnisation and have no central Bank ?
> How will an Independent Scotland pay for all the social improvements if it doesnt have a currency union ?
> Come on Bob dont be faert answer the questions and be a man about it. The way youre blethering youre sounding like you havent got the answers .
> 
> Oh wait thats because you havent got the answers.


The scaremongering is littered throughout your posts - what if's, but's, & how's - if you can't see them then you're obviously totally blind to what we Yes voters are voting for anyway... the potential for a fairer society where the politicians we vote in work for the good of the people they are voted in by... not by an out-of-touch elite voted in by the other 90-odd percent majority of this 'Union'!  Politicians who are accountable to their voters and who can be ousted by the same if they stray from their task.

In answer to your your own specific concerns regarding currency, the EU, etc., I'll take my chances and allow the politicians who were voted into power by the Scots people to make those decisions.  Personally I'd like to see us continuing to use the pound (with or without a currency union) but phasing in a new Scottish currency to take over it in time, but am happy to wait & see what comes to pass.

I definitely wouldn't say I'm scared of Independence.  I'm a rational and patient person (I have to...I work in IT!) with, I consider, a smattering of common sense.  I've done my research and come up with the answer that I feel best suits the future of me & my children.  I hold no grudge with anyone who has likewise done their research and come to a different conclusion (tho' reserve the right to shake my head at those doing it blindly without any prior thought), and whether the 18th returns a Yes or a No I'll hold my head up high at the choice I made and just get on with life.

----------


## Wiseowl

I have tried to avoid commenting on any of these referendum posts as it is somewhat unnerving the backlash others have experienced in doing so, however, the argument that the Better Together campaign is 'scare-mongering' is old. I have seen increasing evidence of that very type of campaign from the 'Yes' voters. Not once, but multiple times, have I been told that I would be a 'disgrace', 'not a true scot', if I were to vote no. There is the increasing aggression as the campaign progresses that we HAVE to vote yes if we have any integrity or pride in our nation. This is ridiculous - there is a difference between being a nationalist and being patriotic. I love Scotland, and thus, I want to do what is best for Scotland. I do not believe that this is the right time for independence. I read an article a few days ago from a well-established newspaper (not The Sun, before any of the Orgers try!) that mentioned when Norway opted for independence, 98% voted yes - what a landslide and a clear togetherness for the same cause. If we as a country can't even agree on whether we should be independent - then we shouldn't be independent at all.

----------


## squidge

> Tell me Squidge are you prepared to take  the money where your mouth is pledge. Make a pledge here today that  you're prepared to help build that free and fair society you keep  talking about. If the plans for independence end up costing us the  people more money because the SNP has not got a plan B and cannot get  into the EU because sterlingisation wont fulfill entry criteria. Will  you personally pledge to help out each and every person you've persuaded  to vote yes when the hardships hit their homes. Political speak is easy  its cheap put it where it really counts and if you're that sure that  Independence is really the right way to go. PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR  MOUTH IS.
> 
> Or as i suspect is it all just rhetoric and you'll find an excuse to flannel your way out of it with excuses.


If the vote is YES then I will absolutely do what you suggest and out my money where my mouth is. I do that already and I will continue to do so.  You know what Better Together I might even go one step further and put my entire financial security where my mouth is because i might just stand for the parliament where i can be judged on my successes and failures by the electorate. I have always said that I would not do that.  That im not thick skinned enough but you know what - maybe i am.  You and your ilk have spent the last 2 years insulting me and people like me, you have sneered and suggested that we are naive and ignorant and stupid and fascists and nazis and as bad as Britain  First and out for ourselves and lazy and thugs and on and on it goes.  Maybe im more thick skinned than i thought.  That isnt something i can guarantee though because i would need to be elected.  Because you see Better Together, what your campaign has missed out completely is that the YES campaign is based on Scotland itself having the power to make Scotland fairer and better for all the people that live here.  Even you.

----------


## BetterTogether

So there we have it the harsh reality is the Yes voters still believe they will get a currency union. Despite being told over and over and over again there will be no currency union.]

We have the then amazing statement that a country of 60 million people and 6th largest economy in the world will be committing economic suicide by not allowing a country of 5 Million to use its currency.

The mendacity of that statement alone is idiotic beyond contempt and shows the posters true lack of economic intelligence.

The whole future is ifs, buts and maybes that is what discussing the potential problems is about, it isnt scaremongering. But just denying those problems even exist is why most yes voters are burying their heads in the sand and ignoring the harsh realities of what happens when there is no currency union. Instantly you cant enter the EU as you have no central bank and so starts to unravel all the delightful fairy stories which the SNP have spun. Its a shame that so many posters on this forum are unable to hold a discussion. 

As for you squidge having seen how you conduct yourself on the  caithness...  im not sure its really worth discussing anything with someone of your moral standpoint. Any moral position you try and take on a free and fair society is entirely undermined by your posts which are there for all to see. I didnt believe it until I went and looked myself.

I had heard that this particular org had quite a vociferous amount of bullying yes supporters it would appear that is the case.  I have also heard and seen evidence of posts being unnecessarily removed by moderators for apparently no good reason. Maybe someone would like to email me and explain why this suppression of free speech and debate is occurring on this org ??

----------


## squidge

> What about the interest rates? What about your house rates, will these stay the same. Currency changes in value, so would Scotland currencey change, your money would not be the same value.


Ok Scout Deep breath and lets answer your question about interest rates. :Grin:   How nice it is to see a real question, it deserves a common sense answer. 

The short answer to your question whether Scotland is in or out of the UK no one knows what the interest rates will be.   But it is more complicated than that. If we are in a currency union then the interest rates will be the same as the rest of the UK.  Thats because the interest rates will be set, just like they are now by an independent Bank of England.  

If we are not in a currency union then it may be likely that your interest rates will change.  And that will happen in the rUK as well.  See without a currency union, the pound will struggle to maintain its value, we are seeing that now. The £ is worth what it is worth partly because it is underpinned by oil and the Scottish Economy. Without those resources the £ will struggle and the economy of the UK will also struggle.  No one wants that and that is why The Scottish Government believe that the best option both for Scotland and the rUK is to be in a currency union.  

So will a No vote mean that housing costs and interest rates will stay the same?  Nope it wont.  The UK economy even without Scottish independence is a fluctuating thing.  Financial commentators say that an interest rate rise is on its way.  Borrowing costs for the UK are already rising - up around 10% i think and i posted already that the Uk is the only country in europe where the costs of borrowing are increasing. 

Its interesting to note also that the Bank of England  said that unemployment would have to fall bellow 7% I think before they would consider a rate rise and it is now below that figure.  The committee that makes the decisions is already split on the issue with some members voting already for a rate rise. 

So the notion that staing in the union somehow protects Scotland from interest rate rises is not true.

----------


## BetterTogether

> If the vote is YES then I will absolutely do what you suggest and out my money where my mouth is. I do that already and I will continue to do so.  You know what Better Together I might even go one step further and put my entire financial security where my mouth is because i might just stand for the parliament where i can be judged on my successes and failures by the electorate. I have always said that I would not do that.  That im not thick skinned enough but you know what - maybe i am.  You and your ilk have spent the last 2 years insulting me and people like me, you have sneered and suggested that we are naive and ignorant and stupid and fascists and nazis and as bad as Britain  First and out for ourselves and lazy and thugs and on and on it goes.  Maybe im more thick skinned than i thought.  That isnt something i can guarantee though because i would need to be elected.  Because you see Better Together, what your campaign has missed out completely is that the YES campaign is based on Scotland itself having the power to make Scotland fairer and better for all the people that live here.  Even you.


now that really is a post which is showing the true scaremongering of a yes campaigner at no stage have i even hinted that you are any of the things you suggest. Infact im quite amazed that you bring them to this forum and expect to be taken seriously. You have verged on using hate speech by entering those phrases into this conversation all it shows is there really isnt a limit to how low you will stoop to try and score a political point. Its a shame that you feel the need to bring such awful phrases into this org and sully a debate by throwing about such insults

----------


## BetterTogether

I shall gracefully withdraw from this debate now as I refuse to have hate speech directed at me by another poster. Im sorry if I am unable to continue but the terms being used by the above poster are totally unacceptable within a civilised debate.

----------


## rob murray

> Ok Scout Deep breath and lets answer your question about interest rates.  How nice it is to see a real question, it deserves a common sense answer. 
> 
> The short answer to your question whether Scotland is in or out of the UK no one knows what the interest rates will be.   But it is more complicated than that. If we are in a currency union then the interest rates will be the same as the rest of the UK.  Thats because the interest rates will be set, just like they are now by an independent Bank of England.  
> 
> If we are not in a currency union then it may be likely that your interest rates will change.  And that will happen in the rUK as well.  See without a currency union, the pound will struggle to maintain its value, we are seeing that now. The £ is worth what it is worth partly because it is underpinned by oil and the Scottish Economy. Without those resources the £ will struggle and the economy of the UK will also struggle.  No one wants that and that is why The Scottish Government believe that the best option both for Scotland and the rUK is to be in a currency union.  
> 
> So will a No vote mean that housing costs and interest rates will stay the same?  Nope it wont.  The UK economy even without Scottish independence is a fluctuating thing.  Financial commentators say that an interest rate rise is on its way.  Borrowing costs for the UK are already rising - up around 10% i think and i posted already that the Uk is the only country in europe where the costs of borrowing are increasing. 
> 
> Its interesting to note also that the Bank of England  said that unemployment would have to fall bellow 7% I think before they would consider a rate rise and it is now below that figure.  The committee that makes the decisions is already split on the issue with some members voting already for a rate rise. 
> ...


One thing that you cant hide from is markets and the financial markets dont reponse to uncertainy in a positive manner : see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29103445 : of course the pound will struggle, its struggling now and dont think that this critical situation will be resolved on day 2 of a post yes vote, truth is it will take months of negotiations to resolve isses and in that time the UK as a whole will be pounded by the markets and Scotland wont be sheltered, an undisputed fact !

----------


## squidge

IN case you missed it on the other side Better Together I dont care what you think of me. 

Lets focus on the issues and not the frothing at the mouth stuff that you seem to be doing just now.

 It isnt just the Yes Campaign that believes there will be a currency union. Here is Andy Brough, the Executive Director at Schroders Investment Management Ltd explaining it. 

If Scotland becomes Independent then the UK will lose 10% of its GDP overnight. 

Im not fussed for a currency union to be honest - i would prefer a stand alone currency but you know - whatever it is - we will still HAVE a crrency, we will still have a Bouyant and varied economy and we will still have significant natural resources.  

If you dont want a currency union so be it.

----------


## Shaggy

> I shall gracefully withdraw from this debate now as I refuse to have hate speech directed at me by another poster. Im sorry if I am unable to continue but the terms being used by the above poster are totally unacceptable within a civilised debate.



Byeeeeeeeeeeeee!

----------


## Scout

> Ok Scout Deep breath and lets answer your question about interest rates.  How nice it is to see a real question, it deserves a common sense answer. 
> 
> The short answer to your question whether Scotland is in or out of the UK no one knows what the interest rates will be.   But it is more complicated than that. If we are in a currency union then the interest rates will be the same as the rest of the UK.  Thats because the interest rates will be set, just like they are now by an independent Bank of England.  
> 
> If we are not in a currency union then it may be likely that your interest rates will change.  And that will happen in the rUK as well.  See without a currency union, the pound will struggle to maintain its value, we are seeing that now. The £ is worth what it is worth partly because it is underpinned by oil and the Scottish Economy. Without those resources the £ will struggle and the economy of the UK will also struggle.  No one wants that and that is why The Scottish Government believe that the best option both for Scotland and the rUK is to be in a currency union.  
> 
> So will a No vote mean that housing costs and interest rates will stay the same?  Nope it wont.  The UK economy even without Scottish independence is a fluctuating thing.  Financial commentators say that an interest rate rise is on its way.  Borrowing costs for the UK are already rising - up around 10% i think and i posted already that the Uk is the only country in europe where the costs of borrowing are increasing. 
> 
> Its interesting to note also that the Bank of England  said that unemployment would have to fall bellow 7% I think before they would consider a rate rise and it is now below that figure.  The committee that makes the decisions is already split on the issue with some members voting already for a rate rise. 
> ...


Great thank you for answering my questions. I agree with most you have said this time, just the one part about value to the money falling as well; this would happen in England. I agree to point; however Scotland own currency would not be known as much as the pound,  and would fall a lot more than the pound. With this in mind, your money would be different in your pockets

----------


## squidge

God - did i just become the oracle?  its a good job im off today.  

Hi

Ill just answer these two questions here if that ok and come back to post 85 after as i have real life stuff to do too. 

The answer to both these questions is - i dont. I would prefer a stand alone currency but i dont think im going to get that so I would settle for a currency union and lobby for change once we are Independent.  

if you are asking me. Why would an Independent Scotland want the rUK to set its interest rates then thats a different question and the answer to that is because it hleps to ensure market stability - a bit like the answer to Robs question above which points out that there will be instability.  A CU would remove that instabiity. It also makes it easier to do business between England and Scotland and it also helps to underpin Sterling and guarantee the debt which the UK has.  

The answer to the second part is pretty similar too.  IT would take the risk because the benefits of the union would outweigh the risks.  So by being the lender of last resort they ensure stability in the markets, they ensure that the assets of Scotland underpin the economy and that they hold onto the 10% of GDP which would be lost if Scotand was outwith a currency union.

----------


## rob murray

> Ok Scout Deep breath and lets answer your question about interest rates.  How nice it is to see a real question, it deserves a common sense answer. 
> 
> The short answer to your question whether Scotland is in or out of the UK no one knows what the interest rates will be.   But it is more complicated than that. If we are in a currency union then the interest rates will be the same as the rest of the UK.  Thats because the interest rates will be set, just like they are now by an independent Bank of England.  
> 
> If we are not in a currency union then it may be likely that your interest rates will change.  And that will happen in the rUK as well.  See without a currency union, the pound will struggle to maintain its value, we are seeing that now. The £ is worth what it is worth partly because it is underpinned by oil and the Scottish Economy. Without those resources the £ will struggle and the economy of the UK will also struggle.  No one wants that and that is why The Scottish Government believe that the best option both for Scotland and the rUK is to be in a currency union.  
> 
> So will a No vote mean that housing costs and interest rates will stay the same?  Nope it wont.  The UK economy even without Scottish independence is a fluctuating thing.  Financial commentators say that an interest rate rise is on its way.  Borrowing costs for the UK are already rising - up around 10% i think and i posted already that the Uk is the only country in europe where the costs of borrowing are increasing. 
> 
> Its interesting to note also that the Bank of England  said that unemployment would have to fall bellow 7% I think before they would consider a rate rise and it is now below that figure.  The committee that makes the decisions is already split on the issue with some members voting already for a rate rise. 
> ...


You make your point rather pointedly.....ie to many no one knows, maybes...short answer is you dont know, the one thing with any certainty known is that the markets are going to hit us and theres no maybe aye / maybe no in that scenario !

----------


## squidge

> Great thank you for answering my questions. I agree with most you have said this time, just the one part about value to the money falling as well; this would happen in England. I agree to point; however Scotland own currency would not be known as much as the pound,  and would fall a lot more than the pound. With this in mind, your money would be different in your pockets


You are welcome.  Our money would indeed be different in our pockets I hear done old lady said " What do I care if our currency is marbles as long as when i give my marble over i get a loaf of bread"

Scotland's own currency could be pegged to the value of the £sterling if that is what was best for Scotland. That would mean that fluctuations in currency rates would be minimised.

----------


## Shaggy

> God - did i just become the oracle?


You are THE one Squidge Neo!

----------


## Heisenberg

> It is possible for the poster to edit or remove their own post within 48 hours according to Niall's explanation *here*


 I assume budgej is referring to a post they made, and I'm sure they would remember if they had deleted it themselves. Perhaps it contained sensitive content that alarmed admin. You as a moderator bob should know this.

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## squidge

> You make your point rather pointedly.....ie to many no one knows, maybes...short answer is you dont know, the one thing with any certainty known is that the markets are going to hit us and theres no maybe aye / maybe no in that scenario !


There are absolutely no certainties in the economic arguments from either side Rob except one.  

And ill say it again though im sure that people have seen me say it before.  

In an independent Scotland money raised in Scotland from whatever sources would be spent on the priorities of Scotland which are decided by the voters - thats you and me guys - and delivered by the Government that we choose. 

Thats it  - thats the only truth and it is very different from what happens now.

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## rob murray

> You are welcome.  Our money would indeed be different in our pockets I hear done old lady said " What do I care if our currency is marbles as long as when i give my marble over i get a loaf of bread"
> 
> Scotland's own currency could be pegged to the value of the £sterling if that is what was best for Scotland. That would mean that fluctuations in currency rates would be minimised.


Robert Peston BBC Economics Report : "You don't need telling, I know, that the longer the uncertainties persist, the more prolonged the UK will suffer from an elevated cost of finance, and the greater the harm there will be to economic growth - both sides of the border.
Or to put it another way, whatever the long term prospects for Scotland and the rest of the UK, both could pay a steep and immediate economic price, during the months and probably years it will take to firmly determine the distribution of assets north and south (and I haven't even got on to the further complications of determining how liabilities, such as the national debt , are shared)". 

Yes voters : you are are being lied to and conned by a bluffer : dont think that major issues wil be easiiy and quickly resolved, they wont, and as long as there is uncertainty, markets bite and you know what  no one will get any pride on telling you...I told you so : we are staring very hard times in the face with no way back, welcome to the abyss ! Marbles...well youve lost any creditibility you ever had with piece of nonsense !!

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## squidge

IF we were in a currency union then we would expect the Bank of England to "take that risk" as you put it because we share in the assets and the liabilities of the Bank of England. There is no need to be governed by the same government to share those assets.

Lets see if I can explain it - If you buy a car with someone you expect them to let you use it and if it breaks down you would expect to contribute wouldnt you?  If you buy a house with someone You would expect to share it and expect to contribute to the house and the costs of it.  

Scotland contributes to the economy and would shoulder its share of the risks just like the rUK.  Just like the car or the house scenario

----------


## squidge

> Robert Peston BBC Economics Report : "You don't need telling, I know, that the longer the uncertainties persist, the more prolonged the UK will suffer from an elevated cost of finance, and the greater the harm there will be to economic growth - both sides of the border.
> Or to put it another way, whatever the long term prospects for Scotland and the rest of the UK, both could pay a steep and immediate economic price, during the months and probably years it will take to firmly determine the distribution of assets north and south (and I haven't even got on to the further complications of determining how liabilities, such as the national debt , are shared)". 
> 
> Yes voters : you are are being lied to and conned by a bluffer : dont think that major issues wil be easiiy and quickly resolved, they wont, and as long as there is uncertainty, markets bite and you know what  no one will get any pride on telling you...I told you so : we are staring very hard times in the face with no way back, welcome to the abyss ! Marbles...well youve lost any creditibility you ever had with piece of nonsense !!


Thats why the rUK would either decide quickly there will not be a currency union or that there will be.  Thats also why people beleive there will be a currency union. Like i say Rob - in or out of a CU we can still be successful. If there is a YES vote then its in the rUKs interest to decide quickly about a CU. I rather hope they say no.

----------


## rob murray

> Thats why the rUK would either decide quickly there will not be a currency union or that there will be.  Thats also why people beleive there will be a currency union. Like i say Rob - in or out of a CU we can still be successful. If there is a YES vote then its in the rUKs interest to decide quickly about a CU. I rather hope they say no.


Whats the point, do you honestly believe that complex situations  whatever currency will be used will be deatl with in a matter of days post "freedom" ? As the man says it will take months and years : read his full report please ! and whats with rUK ? Its Great Britain !

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## David Banks

> Fine quotes David will you be there with your wallet open to help the elderly when their fuel bills rise due to financial incompetence of the SNP and their failed attempt to bully a currency union out of the UK ? or like so many activists is it all fancy rhetoric with no in-depth knowledge of the consequences


Will I be there with my wallet open? Its not an impossibility  more on that later.

Would I want to live in a country where the elderly, sick and disabled were held above the poverty line  unquestionably yes. This is much more likely to happen in an independent Scotland.
To be honest, my personal view is that the SNP may well eventually disintegrate into a range of political parties.

What failed attempt . . . at a currency union  . . . with the UK?
Have there been any serious statements made that the UK would NOT negotiate reasonably? Please tell us now. 
Im sure an independent Scotland will not employ bully tactics.
I have neither the intelligence, the aptitude, the time nor the energy to be an activist. On the other hand, the volume of your recent postings (and hinted at by your logon name) suggests you should look in the mirror.
Where do you get your in-depth knowledge of the consequences? Please tell us.

For me, I lived in Scotland for just under 30 years, and have now been in Canada for almost 40. Although I disagreed with many of Pierre Elliot Trudeaus policies, I will be forever grateful for his achievement of gaining Canadas independence from Britain, and giving us a Constitution which included a charter of rights, and recognition of aboriginal rights. One of his first acts (before I moved to Canada) was to bring in official bilingualism (federally) which some in Scotland suggested I should be afraid of.
There have been bumps along the way, but Canada is a better country now than it would have been without Trudeau. Some day soon, I hope we will get proportional representation across the country.

Scotlands path will be different from Canadas, which is why I recommended courage instead of fear.

----------


## budgeJ

> I assume budgej is referring to a post they made, and I'm sure they would remember if they had deleted it themselves. Perhaps it contained sensitive content that alarmed admin. You as a moderator bob should know this.


And Bobinovich is clearly mischief making in his suggestion, because along with Moira, Sassylass and several other Moderators, Bobinovich was in the implicated in the middle of it too, deliberately targeting individual members of the forum and having a jolly good launch at their expense.  Shall I post some of the messages here, or will they too be taken down ?

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## weeker2014

No share of the assets held by the BOE then no share of the debt. You all seem keen to mention bank account sharing after a divorce. Well you also wouldn't expect to get all of the joint assets without an equal proportion of the liabilities. ie If you get half the house you get half of the mortgage!! Simples.

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## weeker2014

> And Bobinovich is clearly mischief making in his suggestion, because along with Moira, Sassylass and several other Moderators, Bobinovich was in the implicated in the middle of it too, deliberately targeting individual members of the forum and having a jolly good launch at their expense.  Shall I post some of the messages here, or will they too be taken down ?


The conspiracy theorists are alive and well on here I see

----------


## weeker2014

The point of this thread is that 61.27% of us now want Independence which is a very accurate reflection on how this debate is looking across the WHOLE of SCOTLAND! Plus we have nay sayers on here from rUK who have no vote in the referendum that have affected the poll so things are looking VERY VERY healthy for YES!

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## weeker2014

I am also sure there will be a gigantic amount of civil unrest if the vote is no regardless of how optimistic you are.9

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## budgeJ

> The conspiracy theorists are alive and well on here I see


Go and have a look here then:
http://bit.ly/1w7O29h

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## Bobinovich

> I assume budgej is referring to a post they made, and I'm sure they would remember if they had deleted it themselves. Perhaps it contained sensitive content that alarmed admin. You as a moderator bob should know this.


So quite obviously you're an old Orger under a new guise (not that that was really under any doubt tbh) if you remember that I was a mod, however your information is WAY out of date as I haven't been a mod for many years  :: , therefore I have no idea what rules they currently operate under.




> And Bobinovich is clearly mischief making in his suggestion, because along with Moira, Sassylass and several other Moderators, Bobinovich was in the implicated in the middle of it too, deliberately targeting individual members of the forum and having a jolly good launch at their expense. Shall I post some of the messages here, or will they too be taken down ?


*Sigh* that old chestnut again...if you're so bothered about something from the dim & distant past then why do you even bother posting?  Get over it...everyone else who bothered to read the full story seems to have...

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## rob murray

> The point of this thread is that 61.27% of us now want Independence which is a very accurate reflection on how this debate is looking across the WHOLE of SCOTLAND! Plus we have nay sayers on here from rUK who have no vote in the referendum that have affected the poll so things are looking VERY VERY healthy for YES!


Us ??? WHere did you get 61.27% : check out Prof JOhn Curtis, I think he would dispute that nonsense

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## squidge

Yeah he would. That seems to be his job these days

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## Bobinovich

> Go and have a look here then:
> http://bit.ly/1w7O29h


And for anyone reading that, the other side of the story can be found *here*

----------


## weeker2014

> Us ??? WHere did you get 61.27% : check out Prof JOhn Curtis, I think he would dispute that nonsense


The poll, the reason we are on this thread. Us mean us on the org who have voted in that poll so there is no disputing it, its hard fact!!!

----------


## squidge

> And for anyone reading that, the other side of the story can be found *here*


Crikey Bob! Where did you find that lol. I looked the other day.

----------


## Bobinovich

> Crikey Bob! Where did you find that lol. I looked the other day.


LOL remembered it was Colin who wrote it so searched for threads started by him  :Smile:   I had a funny feeling the trolls would regurgitate it at some point...

----------


## mi16

> The poll, the reason we are on this thread. Us mean us on the org who have voted in that poll so there is no disputing it, its hard fact!!!


indeed but the numbers voted are substantially less than the previous poll

----------


## rob murray

> Yeah he would. That seems to be his job these days


Here we go, is there no end to your patronising.. John Curtice is an acknowledged expert in political polling, Prof of Politics at Strathclyde....but what does he know !!

----------


## squidge

> Still no reply to post 85 you were to busy doing other things but have managed quite a few post since then


I have, haven't i. I don't actually have to work to your schedule, to do a proper reply takes time, I'm chilling here listening to music and drinking tea. Bit of cooking going on. Chilling. I'll get round to post 85 when I'm ready. It's likely to be after the kids have gone to bed. It might be tomorrow but I'll get round to it.

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## squidge

> Here we go, is there no end to your patronising.. John Curtice is an acknowledged expert in political polling, Prof of Politics at Strathclyde....but what does he know !!


He knows lots of things Rob. I wasn't commenting on his intellectual ability, he is a very clever man. I just observed that seems to be his job just now that's all.

----------


## budgeJ

> And for anyone reading that, the other side of the story can be found *here*


That's the one, though not really the 'other side' of the story, just Colin Manson being forced by Bill to issue an apology for his and your's and others' despicable actions.

----------


## Tubthumper

> indeed but the numbers voted are substantially less than the previous poll


 How long has this poll been running? How long was the other poll running?Of course there is also the matter of the many no voters who were banned from the site, they would fairly bump the numbers up.All 5 of them.Panic.

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## Tubthumper

Or are we talking desperation?

----------


## Heisenberg

So quite obviously you're an old Orger under a new guise (not that that was really under any doubt tbh) if you remember that I was a mod, however your information is WAY out of date as I haven't been a mod for many years , therefore I have no idea what rules they currently operate under. bobinovich.  Incorrect I read it on the not org..

----------


## budgeJ

> Incorrect I read it on the not org..


On the what Org ??

Do you mean this Org where Squidge has been busy posting ?:
http://bit.ly/1qAiVQg

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## Humerous Vegetable

> indeed but the numbers voted are substantially less than the previous poll


I don't know...maybe because some us who voted on the previous poll aren't allowed to vote again on this one? I tried and failed. Maybe because some Caithness voters don't want to declare their intentions before entering the polling station? Maybe because some of us have an actual life outside online forums and, if not, can find better sites than this to air their political views? 
I only wish *somebody* on here from the No side would give a coherent and positive argument for staying with the union, but I have never seen a single positive to support the _status quo_ in this whole debate on here, or anywhere else.
I think I saw somewhere on here that Squidge was asking for Better Togethers to put forward a speaker at the Portgower independence meeting today to put forward the No side. Did any of you vociferous No supporters volunteer your services?

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## BetterTogether

As I am new to this website I would like to offer some opinion. I have never been a member of Caithness.org prior to signing up but have been asked what my other screen name is already, this may be common practice on this org I honestly do not know. I have found that the inability of some posters to allow the discussion on the topic of Independence to take place freely and fairly quite incredible.  
I can appreciate that the debate can raise passions but to be accused of being a fascist, nazi or member of the Bnp buy a member of the org I found distinctly unsavoury.
It would appear from another org from Caithness the  that the same member who is throwing around these unsavoury comments has already caused a number of people to be banned from this org due to making claims against them which are from what ive read baseless lies and complete fabrications.
Now  to hear about this is one thing but to be able to read the posts from yesterday and then see  that self same poster on here espousing desires to be a politicians and wanting a free and fair society whilst on another org revelling in her ability to use a former postion as moderator on this site  to get people banned is quite hypocritcal.
Im not sure how or why this person has become the  spokesperson for the yes campaign in Caithness whether it is in an official position but I find the posts from the other org worrying in that she openly admits getting innocent people banned and seems to revel in that.

Is this the kind of society we really want to live in where people with political motivations are prepared to do and say anything to get power.
It isnt the first time in History that such actions have been undertaken by a certain type of person but i urge you to read the posts under her own name on the other org and make up your minds.
If the people who run this site or moderators condone and accept  these type of  actions then there is something very wrong with Caithness.Org and the political process with Scotland I agree that politics should be passionate and it is very easy to get worked up, but to actively seek to undermine peoples democratic right to free speech is something we should all frown upon regardless of which side of the debate we come from.
I hope that the owners of this site will investigate this person and take the appropriate actions to ensure that regardless of the outcome of the Referendum deceit and duplicity are not how it is remembered and that Caithness.Orgs reputation isn't further tarnished by the actions of one person.

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## budgeJ

> I hope that the owners of this site will investigate this person


Highly unlikely given that Squidge is part of the clique.

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## Rheghead

> Here we go, is there no end to your patronising.. John Curtice is an acknowledged expert in political polling, Prof of Politics at Strathclyde....but what does he know !!


Yes, I remember John Curtice saying that the First Minister had won the second TV debate but it was unlikely to result in a significant shift in the polls.  He might one day live to eat those words.

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## BetterTogether

> Highly unlikely given that Squidge is part of the clique.


Given that the named poster has to all intents and purposes posted a full and frank confession of her actions on the other org I would find it very difficult for the people who run this org to not to react to such incriminating evidence and admitted to using that org here. It is sad when one person seeks to pervert what should be a free debate on Independence for their own political ends.

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## mi16

> Given that the named poster has to all intents and purposes posted a full and frank confession of her actions on the other org I would find it very difficult for the people who run this org to not to react to such incriminating evidence and admitted to using that org here. It is sad when one person seeks to pervert what should be a free debate on Independence for their own political ends.


 For goodness sake better together how naive are you?Just a couple of weeks back there was a direct threat made to bomb 10 downing st on here and the big brush swept it under the carpet with no repercussions.

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## bekisman

Just popped in, my God has there been a massacre  of the Unionists!

 Previous thread: Yes: 161. No: 183.
 Quote from Mi16:
_"With the recent political cleansing that has  been carried out on here, I would expect a new poll to be a resounding  yes,"_
 New Thread: yes 79. No 49
 Very prophetic Mi16!
 Obviously now with the 'Nays' wiped out, it  gives Squidge (being a Moderator) a perfect opportunity to continue unopposed,  but as they say, it ain't over till the fat lady sings!

 P.S. That's a BIG sign you've got there Rheghead!  (Thought Green would have been a better colour)

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## Heisenberg

> I don't know...maybe because some us who voted on the previous poll aren't allowed to vote again on this one? I tried and failed. Maybe because some Caithness voters don't want to declare their intentions before entering the polling station? Maybe because some of us have an actual life outside online forums and, if not, can find better sites than this to air their political views? I only wish *somebody* on here from the No side would give a coherent and positive argument for staying with the union, but I have never seen a single positive to support the _status quo_ in this whole debate on here, or anywhere else.I think I saw somewhere on here that Squidge was asking for Better Togethers to put forward a speaker at the Portgower independence meeting today to put forward the No side. Did any of you vociferous No supporters volunteer your services?


 Vote YES then, what do you care for coherent and positive argument, you've made up your mind

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## squidge

> As I am new to this website


 :: 




> I would like to offer some opinion. I have never been a member of Caithness.org prior to signing up but have been asked what my other screen name is already, this may be common practice on this org I honestly do not know. I have found that the inability of some posters to allow the discussion on the topic of Independence to take place freely and fairly quite incredible.  
> I can appreciate that the debate can raise passions but to be accused of being a fascist, nazi or member of the Bnp buy a member of the org I found distinctly unsavoury.


Are you suggesting that I called you those things? Here is the post to which you have taken such exception with the text highlighted so that you and anyone else can read it. 




> If the vote is YES then I will absolutely do what  you suggest and out my money where my mouth is. I do that already and I  will continue to do so.  You know what Better Together I might even go  one step further and put my entire financial security where my mouth is  because i might just stand for the parliament where i can be judged on  my successes and failures by the electorate. I have always said that I  would not do that.  That im not thick skinned enough but you know what -  maybe i am.  *You and your ilk have spent the last 2 years insulting me  and people like me, you have sneered and suggested that we are naive and  ignorant and stupid and fascists and nazis and as bad as Britain  First  and out for ourselves and lazy and thugs and on and on it goes.*  Maybe  im more thick skinned than i thought.  That isnt something i can  guarantee though because i would need to be elected.  Because you see  Better Together, what your campaign has missed out completely is that  the YES campaign is based on Scotland itself having the power to make  Scotland fairer and better for all the people that live here.  Even  you.


Now I am sure that you will apologise for the mistake you made in suggesting that I have called you such names, when as you can see here I did not do so. 


As for the rest of your post I dont even know what to say as it such a distortion of the truth.  You are right - the posts are there for all to see and I hope people have a look.  Unless you are my mother, father, husband or children then to be frank I dont care what you think.

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## squidge

> Just popped in, my God has there been a massacre  of the Unionists!
> 
>  Previous thread: Yes: 161. No: 183.
>  Quote from Mi16:
> _"With the recent political cleansing that has  been carried out on here, I would expect a new poll to be a resounding  yes,"_
>  New Thread: yes 79. No 49
>  Very prophetic Mi16!
>  Obviously now with the 'Nays' wiped out, it  gives Squidge (being a Moderator) a perfect opportunity to continue unopposed,  but as they say, it ain't over till the fat lady sings!
> 
>  P.S. That's a BIG sign you've got there Rheghead!  (Thought Green would have been a better colour)


Beks i havent been a moderator for years and you know what.... I AM the fat lady lol and im not singing yet!!!

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## mi16

> I AM the fat lady lol and im not singing yet!!!


how self important!!!

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