# General > Politics >  Asylum seekers/Refugees Calais

## gingernut

Can someone please explain why the asylum seekers/refugees in Calais are so desperate to come to the UK instead of staying in France?
What does the UK offer them that France doesn't?

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## Mr Z

Everything?

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## theone

In France they are housed in camps until the asylum decision is made.

In Britain they are in detention centres.

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## rob murray

If camerons wrong......why not welcome every single one of them into Scotland eh ?

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## tonkatojo

> If camerons wrong......why not welcome every single one of them into Scotland eh ?


It would probably be a bit lively in Wick  :Wink:  if the paper controversy is still live.

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## rob murray

> It would probably be a bit lively in Wick  if the paper controversy is still live.


Plenty of space in north highlands and a government thats keen on dishing out freebies....weather nay force them south into England.....

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## cptdodger

There's always Stroma, plenty of room on there.

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## rob murray

> There's always Stroma, plenty of room on there.


Plenty of space down round Contin too !! Plenty of freebies Paulie boys got loads of our dosh as well !!!!

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## BetterTogether

Sad to see this mess assuming such epic proportions. I'm wondering why the UK govt hasn't launched an action through the European court to stop the French creating this problem and it is very much a French problem, the refugees / asylum seekers are supposed to be dealt with at point of entry into Europe. The UK is obviously not these persons point of entry but to all intents and purposes other European states have colluded to create safe passage for these people to get to the UK.

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## BetterTogether

Interesting to note that these people who are allegedly seeking to escape from regimes aren't happy to be just in Europe but have very distinct ideas in which country in Europe they wish to reside in. We also frequently see interviews with them telling us how much money they've paid traffickers to get them here. Surely this debunks the myth that they are political asylum seekers but are in fact economic migrants.

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## Sgitheanach

In France you need an id card in the UK you don't

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## Fulmar

As far as I can recall, the idea of introducing identity cards was raised and discussed in the UK some while back but was not universally popular, to say the least.
The migrant crisis is heart breaking. I do not blame anyone (especially someone young) wanting to escape from hell at home to have the chance of working and having a decent and peaceful life elsewhere. It is what has happened throughout history including from Scotland as not all the emigration was forced. The people are also being mis-led in thinking that the UK wants them and are being fleeced to get to Calais. Clearly, we cannot take everyone in but I think that we should continue to accept and re-settle some who are the most needy and at risk of persecution, both at home and abroad,  such as the children who are travelling on their own and at such huge risk. It is a humanitarian crisis and my heart goes out to these people anyway. I also think it right to try and continue to support those few governments in far flung places that are trying to reform and to build up their economies etc. The only way to solve this longer term is for there to be peace, security and jobs in the countries of origin and that looks well nigh impossible at present but have to keep on trying.

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## golach

Scottish snp  msp's are discussing Identity Cards

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-31715798

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## cptdodger

Maybe I'm being naive, but I do'nt have a problem with Identity cards, but then I'm one of the few people that do'nt have a passport or a full driving license. I refuse to pay £72.50, and also the cost of travel to Dundee to have an interview (I have never had a passport, I was on my dads) just to get a passport which I am not going to use. It certainly makes my life difficult trying to prove I am allowed to be in the country I was born in, the last time I went abroad was when I was 9, I'm 52 now.

I just thought it would make my life easier having an Identity card, but then, I do'nt have a problem with a national DNA database either, which I think they were trying to introduce a few years back.

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## rob murray

> Scottish snp  msp's are discussing Identity Cards
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-31715798


This not what the url outlines...it illustrates access to an identity database that can be accessed by 120 organisations....one word....why ?

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## theone

> This not what the url outlines...it illustrates access to an identity database that can be accessed by 120 organisations....one word....why ?


For the same reasons the SNP are appointing 'state mentors' to monitor every child as they grow up.

To allow the populace to be monitored.

The monitoring isn't a problem necessarily, it's how the information gathered is used that is the question.

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## Mr Z

Mignonet: England to blame for Calais crisishttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33760591

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## BetterTogether

So the Mayor of Calais is laying sole responsibility on the UK Govt, rather than the French Governments inability to deal with the immigrants already within their own borders and attempting to gain access to another EU country. Mind I suppose there would be those who may well be happy with ID cards for everyone to stop the black market in labour  and cure the problem.

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## cptdodger

> So the Mayor of Calais is laying sole responsibility on the UK Govt, rather than the French Governments inability to deal with the immigrants already within their own borders and attempting to gain access to another EU country. Mind I suppose there would be those who may well be happy with ID cards for everyone to stop the black market in labour  and cure the problem.


It's not just the Mayor of Calais that blames the UK Government, it's some of the British Public as well. I used to live in Kent, and I have to tell you, Operation Stack is a living nightmare, it was bad enough once in a while but now it seems to be every second day. I was talking to somebody about it and they said, if it was'nt for the UK Government handing everything to them (the people trying to get here) on a plate basically, there would not be this problem. This is not just a problem in Kent, it is now affecting the whole country.

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## Fulmar

Please to remember that these are PEOPLE just like you and me. Dying at home or dying to cross the Mediterranean or to get into the Tunnel by whatever means, it now seems all the same to them. Desperate people who feel that they have absolutely nothing to lose and willing to risk their very life as have no other option. Have you ever been in that position- thanks to an accident of birth, (being born in a 'civilised country), I have not and I thank God for that. So they are being handed everything on a plate are they- like living in squalor in that hell hole of a camp in Calais or in detention centres in England you mean, or now, facing being summarily evicted onto the street in the UK if they are discovered to be illegal; (the latest 'humane' wheeze from the Tories, along with cutting every means of support, including for vulnerable children). Do you know who will step in when that happens, the charitable sector such as Crisis and the churches who at least have some sense of humanity and compassion. We cannot take everyone in, of course we cannot, but we could take some people and we could treat the others for who they are- people the same as ourselves and as 'ourselves', we should be able to recognise that we might do exactly the same in their position.
It seems ironic to me that there has been such a stooshie over the 'golliwog' incident up here when some of the comments about these poor people are, to me at least, highly offensive and borderline racist.

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## cptdodger

> Please to remember that these are PEOPLE just like you and me. Dying at home or dying to cross the Mediterranean or to get into the Tunnel by whatever means, it now seems all the same to them. Desperate people who feel that they have absolutely nothing to lose and willing to risk their very life as have no other option. Have you ever been in that position- thanks to an accident of birth, (being born in a 'civilised country), I have not and I thank God for that. So they are being handed everything on a plate are they- like living in squalor in that hell hole of a camp in Calais or in detention centres in England you mean, or now, facing being summarily evicted onto the street in the UK if they are discovered to be illegal; (the latest 'humane' wheeze from the Tories, along with cutting every means of support, including for vulnerable children). Do you know who will step in when that happens, the charitable sector such as Crisis and the churches who at least have some sense of humanity and compassion. We cannot take everyone in, of course we cannot, but we could take some people and we could treat the others for who they are- people the same as ourselves and as 'ourselves', we should be able to recognise that we might do exactly the same in their position.
> It seems ironic to me that there has been such a stooshie over the 'golliwog' incident up here when some of the comments about these poor people are, to me at least, highly offensive and borderline racist.


If you would care to re read what I actually wrote -

_I was talking to somebody that said_  "if it was'nt for the UK Government handing everything to them (the  people trying to get here) on a plate basically, there would not be this  problem"

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## BetterTogether

Fair points fulmar but you have to consider the other side. These people have travelled across Europe, so already passed through fully westernised societies, there are plenty of opportunities for these people to go through the normal channels to get into this country but they choose to avoid those routes and follow a route of illegality to try and force themselves into the country, which also happens to be pretty much the most densely populated country in Europe. Are you suggesting we throw open the doors to anyone prepared to break the law to enter the country ? There is no easy answer, yes the plight of people in many countries around the world is a lot worse than ours but that doesn't mean we should just throw open the doors to anyone who wants to ignore the rules and just force themselves upon the country. Should we pander to people smugglers and encourage them to perpetrate their vile trade.

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## rob murray

BBC News abstract : The situation in Calais is part of a wider migration crisis in Europe -caused largely by the displacement of people from war-torn countries such as Syria, Afghanistan, and Eritrea, and also North Africa ie displaced people from WAR TORN COUNTRIES.
Many want to claim asylum in the UK. Others want to enter the country incognito to remain as illegal workers. So some who seel asylum are genuine others are not.....The British Red Cross said most migrants wanted to make the move because they believed there was a better prospect of finding work in the UK, or speak English and want to use the language. Others have relatives in the UK, or are drawn by *a belief that there is better housing and education available*.The UK is certainly not alone as a target destination. According to the *EU's statistics body Eurostat*, Germany saw the most non-EUasylum seekers in 2014 - almost 203,000 - followed by Sweden, Italy, France,Hungary, *and then the UK....being 6th choice.*

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## rob murray

> Sad to see this mess assuming such epic proportions. I'm wondering why the UK govt hasn't launched an action through the European court to stop the French creating this problem and it is very much a French problem, the refugees / asylum seekers are supposed to be dealt with at point of entry into Europe. The UK is obviously not these persons point of entry but to all intents and purposes other European states have colluded to create safe passage for these people to get to the UK.


Yeah.....see https://calaismigrantsolidarity.wordpress.com/

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## Fulmar

_We cannot take everyone in, of course we cannot, but we could take some people_ 

Perhaps we should reflect on the inglorious colonial past of not only the UK but of many others among the major European players in all of this, not to mention are even more recent interference in the Middle East and ask what part all that might have to play in the current exodus of people seeking a better life in the west. We exploited these countries for their mineral and oil wealth and participated in war and death and destruction in the countries that some of them hail from and now the poorest are perhaps thinking that it is time there was some redistribution and equity.
I do not believe that these people are 'choosing' at all. As I said above, I believe that they are totally desperate and have been exploited at every turn. No, of course I would prefer everything to be above board and legal and to go through the 'proper channels' whatever these are but it is government policy to turn as many people as possible away- we all know that. Sweden is taking in far more people than we are. The willingness to see something more equitable starts as far as I am concerned with myself and a willingness to think that there should be something much better and fairer in place- and I would give someone a helping hand if I was able to and offended by Cameron's 'swarm' reference when he and his ilk have never known deprivation, persecution and abject poverty and lack the imagination to even contemplate it.

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## BetterTogether

Fulmar we can dwell on our colonial past if you wish but then every country that has ever had a dabble in another's affairs should be held equally accountable so where do we stop with the historical grievances how far back should we go ? I'm sure if you feel so strongly about helping these people you could advertise a spare room or two for them to reside in no one is stopping you aiding them. I mean there's plenty of room up here for more people and I'm sure the friendly people of Caithness would be overjoyed to see people from all over Africa and the Middle East descending on their towns to aid the cultural diversity of the place.

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## rob murray

> _We cannot take everyone in, of course we cannot, but we could take some people_ 
> 
> Perhaps we should reflect on the inglorious colonial past of not only the UK but of many others among the major European players in all of this, not to mention are even more recent interference in the Middle East and ask what part all that might have to play in the current exodus of people seeking a better life in the west. We exploited these countries for their mineral and oil wealth and participated in war and death and destruction in the countries that some of them hail from and now the poorest are perhaps thinking that it is time there was some redistribution and equity.
> I do not believe that these people are 'choosing' at all. As I said above, I believe that they are totally desperate and have been exploited at every turn. No, of course I would prefer everything to be above board and legal and to go through the 'proper channels' whatever these are but it is government policy to turn as many people as possible away- we all know that. Sweden is taking in far more people than we are. The willingness to see something more equitable starts as far as I am concerned with myself and a willingness to think that there should be something much better and fairer in place- and I would give someone a helping hand if I was able to and offended by Cameron's 'swarm' reference when he and his ilk have never known deprivation, persecution and abject poverty and lack the imagination to even contemplate it.


Read the url piece......safe passage....= deaths, imprisonment, absolute police brutality.....yep our French friends are fairly making it easy for these people. Would agree and disagree with your points....agreement lies in the fact that a fair % of people are absultely desperate to get to UK ( for family reasons , but a % have rather dubious desires to come to the UK ( ie illegal work ), diagreement totally in "we exploited these countries".....you forget to mention the top boss exploiters....the US of A

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## rob murray

> Fulmar we can dwell on our colonial past if you wish but then every country that has ever had a dabble in another's affairs should be held equally accountable so where do we stop with the historical grievances how far back should we go ? I'm sure if you feel so strongly about helping these people you could advertise a spare room or two for them to reside in no one is stopping you aiding them. I mean there's plenty of room up here for more people and I'm sure the friendly people of Caithness would be overjoyed to see people from all over Africa and the Middle East descending on their towns to aid the cultural diversity of the place.


I think this post has let you down, you should reconsider your last sentence

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## cptdodger

> It seems ironic to me that there has been such a stooshie over the 'golliwog' incident up here when some of the comments about these poor people are, to me at least, highly offensive and borderline racist.


I will just point out that my previous post -

 [It's not just the Mayor of Calais that blames the UK Government, it's  some of the British Public as well. I used to live in Kent, and I have  to tell you, Operation Stack is a living nightmare, it was bad enough  once in a while but now it seems to be every second day. I was talking  to somebody about it and they said, if it was'nt for the UK Government  handing everything to them (the people trying to get here) on a plate  basically, there would not be this problem. This is not just a problem  in Kent, it is now affecting the whole country.]

was in response to BetterTogether saying that the Mayor of Calais blames the UK Government for the crisis. The point I was trying to make, in which I have now been branded a racist, was - a lot of British people believe that it is our Governments fault as well, the people in Kent who are losing their businesses as a direct result of Operation Stack, which is even affecting D Steven and Son and that is a Wick company. 

I do'nt believe I ever said that I agreed or disagreed with that view, but if you want to lecture somebody, go down to Kent on any given day that Operation Stack is in place, and you have a go at them, because it was these people that are affected now, it seems on a daily basis that think that.

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## rob murray

> I will just point out that my previous post -
> 
>  [It's not just the Mayor of Calais that blames the UK Government, it's  some of the British Public as well. I used to live in Kent, and I have  to tell you, Operation Stack is a living nightmare, it was bad enough  once in a while but now it seems to be every second day. I was talking  to somebody about it and they said, if it was'nt for the UK Government  handing everything to them (the people trying to get here) on a plate  basically, there would not be this problem. This is not just a problem  in Kent, it is now affecting the whole country.]
> 
> was in response to BetterTogether saying that the Mayor of Calais blames the UK Government for the crisis. The point I was trying to make, in which I have now been branded a racist, was - a lot of British people believe that it is our Governments fault as well, the people in Kent who are losing their businesses as a direct result of Operation Stack, which is even affecting D Steven and Son and that is a Wick company. 
> 
> I do'nt believe I ever said that I agreed or disagreed with that view, but if you want to lecture somebody, go down to Kent on any given day that Operation Stack is in place, and you have a go at them, because it was these people that are affected now, it seems on a daily basis that think that.


You are not a rascist ...period.... you clearly state you do'nt believe you ever said that you agreed or disagreed with the view "qouted"...   !!

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## Fulmar

I'm afraid my post was muddled which is why I posted again. I was thinking at that point of Cameron's 'swarm' reference and not of you at all but should not have coupled it with the golly thing so a complete misunderstanding.

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## BetterTogether

> I'm afraid my post was muddled which is why I posted again. I was thinking at that point of Cameron's 'swarm' reference and not of you at all but should not have coupled it with the golly thing so a complete misunderstanding.


Nothing wrong with using the word swarm for people unless you're trying politicise an issue

Here's  a copy from the Oxford Dictionary.


1.2 (a swarm/swarms of) A large number of people or things:a swarm of journalists

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## BetterTogether

> I think this post has let you down, you should reconsider your last sentence


Are you suggesting that Caithness would not welcome people of multiple nationalities to come reside within our beautiful area. When you consider the SNP want to impose more immigration on us it should be totally acceptable to anyone. It's happening right across the length and breadth of the country it's only a matter of time before this area has to embrace it as fully as anywhere else.

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## Shaggy

> I mean there's plenty of room up here for more people and I'm sure the friendly people of Caithness would be overjoyed to see people from all over Africa and the Middle East descending on their towns to aid the cultural diversity of the place.


Aye, why not?....at least those dressing up during Gala Week will blend in. 

Tell me what "More People in Caithness" will do for work?, what will they do for the community? what will they do for themselves? Where are the houses for them? I'm all for helping people in need but these migrants need to be handled differently to just being allowed into the UK. If the govt went about it properly and maybe built a few decent sized "hotels" in the area they would at least be safe and warm whilst their background story is checked out unlike France who just lets them get on with it. They all have issues but just accepting anybody into the country is a bad move. I read a story a while back that there are probably quite a number of terrorists posing as migrants in Calais just biding their time waiting to come to the UK and cause mayhem....I'll see if i can find the link.

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## BetterTogether

Isn't Raymond building a hotel and there are plenty of hotels up here with the govt giving them free accommodation and £35 a week that would be a tremendous boost for the local economy, the BBC are always interviewing people in Calais who reliably inform us they are highly skilled doctors dentists etc they would probably fill all the NHS positions that are hard to fill, and then you'd have plenty of builders, drivers storemen and various other jobs, filled quickly it would do wonders for the local economy no more having to wait for stuff as there would be plenty of people to do any kind of job you want doing and all probably well below market rates. All it really means is Caithness would become no different to the rest of the UK. Don't forget there are plenty of unemployed elsewhere so it shouldn't really be part of the equation whether or not we have jobs for them.

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## Alien Adrenaline Reflex

+fulmar frankie boyle wrote a good article for the guardian  http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/c...igrants-calais

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## BetterTogether

> +fulmar frankie boyle wrote a good article for the guardian  http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/c...igrants-calais


That would be the same Frankie Boyle who lost his TV show for insulting and mocking a disabled child I take it ? 

The same man who is desperately trying to resurrect his career ? 

Or is it another of the same name.

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## Alien Adrenaline Reflex

right so the content of the article makes no sense.  did you read it or did you do what you seem to always do and judge it on the characher of the author?

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## Alien Adrenaline Reflex

sorry but my nephew has just slapped me for my non-use (i thinik you'll call it) of a spewll checker.  Bloody tories!!! aparantly I have to install one and it will change my lefe.  FDingers crossed....

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## cptdodger

> +fulmar frankie boyle wrote a good article for the guardian  http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/c...igrants-calais



This article is from the BBC News Website - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33781283 - Calais migrant crisis : Hauliers owe £4m in fines.

A section from that report - 
"They have  tools to break locks and knives to cut curtain-sided vehicles. It's just  not safe for drivers to get out of their cabs to prevent this."
Joanne Witheford, Road transport lawyer.

The lorry drivers are now in fear for their lives, and that is what they face every time they go through Calais.

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## Fulmar

I was not going to post again and this is my last but I agree 100% with the article in the Grauniad.
The situation with the lorry drivers is horrendous and awful and unfair- but that's the UK government's fault, going after the wrong people, as usual.

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## cptdodger

> I was not going to post again and this is my last but I agree 100% with the article in the Grauniad.
> The situation with the lorry drivers is horrendous and awful and unfair- but that's the UK government's fault, going after the wrong people, as usual.


And that was the point I was trying to get across, that is why people are blaming the Government.

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## Fulmar

On the radio 4 Sunday programme this morning, there was a report from Eritrea- a country with a repressive regime that matches North Korea in it's control freakery and repression. Most of the 7 million inhabitants are christians and the regime clearly fears this as many are imprisoned and tortured for long periods of time.
Eritreans make up many of those in Calais just now and one of the things that they have done in that squalid camp is to construct a 'church' where they hold services each and every day. Among their number is a 17 year old lad. The reporter asked him why he had scars on his feet and he replied that while in prison, he'd had lit cigarettes applied to them. Why was he in prison? Because of his Christian faith. He has relatives living (he said happily), in London and he wishes to join them. So why is the lad who is a victim of torture not allowed to come in and why is it considered an acceptable solution to send him back 'home' to a country that may very well kill him.
David Cameron professes to be a Christian so it is about time that he shows that he is one. Christ went among the marginalised, the persecuted and the 'down and outs', the refugees and those that every one else despised- those are the people that He sought out and helped. 
A bishop (I can't remember who) has said that the attitudes that are being fostered by the 'hard line' approach of European governments is encouraging racism. I agree.
I was challenged on here to take someone in. Well, I would, without hesitation if I could but he or she has to be allowed into this country first. In my book, it's called being a human being and doing to others as you would have them do to you in your hour of need.

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## BetterTogether

Picking the case of one person to justify the unrelenting influx of people who choose not to go through official channels to get into this country doesn't really do justice to the issue. 

Only today we have the case of a driver found with Vietnamese in the back of his lorry on the M1 the war there finished decades ago.

Eritrea doesn't really equate to North Korea in the totalitarian states league either also it's not infrequent for people to lie about their reasons to enter the country, the vast majority who I may add are paying people smugglers are economic migrants not fleeing oppression but hoping to jump the channel to find a nice country where there aren't any ID cards to stop them working and a healthy black economy to ease their new lives. 

Seems that most of the wars and armed struggles around the world at this moment in time are in the name of one religion in one way or other, not for the first time in History either, seems to me if we want more peace in this world maybe outlawing religion would be a way to go, seems to bring more disharmony and evil into the world than it cures.

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## cptdodger

> The situation with the lorry drivers is horrendous and awful and unfair- 
> 
> So why is the lad who is a victim of torture not allowed to come in and  why is it considered an acceptable solution to send him back 'home' to a  country that may very well kill him.
> 
> In my book, it's called being a human being and doing to others as you would have them do to you in your hour of need.


I can guarantee you, every single one of these people trying to gain entry into Britain illegally will say the same thing, true or not. Does that give them the right to threaten lorry drivers with any weapon they can get their hands on, and place them in fear of their lives ? The knock on affect of this is people losing their business and putting people out of work.

This is from The John O Groats Journal - "William Calder SNR, said the problems at the French port had cost Scrabster Seafoods over two thirds of its business."

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## Alrock

> Picking the case of one person to justify the unrelenting influx of people who choose not to go through official channels to get into this country doesn't really do justice to the issue. 
> 
> Only today we have the case of a driver found with Vietnamese in the back of his lorry on the M1 the war there finished decades ago.
> 
> Eritrea doesn't really equate to North Korea in the totalitarian states league either also it's not infrequent for people to lie about their reasons to enter the country, the vast majority who I may add are paying people smugglers are economic migrants not fleeing oppression but hoping to jump the channel to find a nice country where there aren't any ID cards to stop them working and a healthy black economy to ease their new lives. 
> 
> Seems that most of the wars and armed struggles around the world at this moment in time are in the name of one religion in one way or other, not for the first time in History either, seems to me if we want more peace in this world maybe outlawing religion would be a way to go, seems to bring more disharmony and evil into the world than it cures.


As much as it pains me I do have to agree with you on this one, especially your last paragraph...

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## theone

> Seems that most of the wars and armed struggles around the world at this moment in time are in the name of one religion in one way or other, not for the first time in History either, seems to me if we want more peace in this world maybe outlawing religion would be a way to go, seems to bring more disharmony and evil into the world than it cures.


I'm not convinced that outlawing religion is the way forward.

But removing it from law yes.

Religious views should be treated with the same respect as political ones, and should receive no more support or status.

A christian should have no more right, nor receive no more publicity, for disagreeing with the views of a Muslim than a conservative should for disagreeing with a communist.

Unfortunately current society and acceptance of taboos as a normal get out clause on difficult issues will prevent progress here.

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## BetterTogether

I'm off the feeling given all the problems and special treatments  various religious factions seemed to consider their rights in today's modern society. It's about time State and Religion where finally fully separated if parents wish to indoctrinate their children that's fine but it should be firmly left out of School Curriculums, the legal and judicial processes and especially out of medical systems. That way there can be no accusations of one faction getting special treatment over another and it stops discrimination. There should also be an end to religious schools bringing them all under state control to end some of the more outlandish behaviours within some of them.

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## cptdodger

> I'm off the feeling given all the problems and special treatments  various religious factions seemed to consider their rights in today's modern society. It's about time State and Religion where finally fully separated if parents wish to indoctrinate their children that's fine but it should be firmly left out of School Curriculums, the legal and judicial processes and especially out of medical systems. That way there can be no accusations of one faction getting special treatment over another and it stops discrimination. There should also be an end to religious schools bringing them all under state control to end some of the more outlandish behaviours within some of them.


Totally agree, when my children were younger they could have gone to a Catholic School two doors along from us. I refused, nothing against Catholics, but I am against any form of separatism, especially in schools. You just have to look at Northern Ireland to see the absolute damage religion has caused. "You can't play with them because they are Catholic/Protestant, you can't marry them because they are Catholic/Protestant" and on it goes, for generations. It's just wrong.

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## Alrock

> ...if parents wish to indoctrinate their children that's fine but it should be firmly left out of School Curriculums.


Indoctrination of children into anything is wrong, no matter who's doing the indoctrinating.

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## BetterTogether

> Indoctrination of children into anything is wrong, no matter who's doing the indoctrinating.


I tend to agree but you'd have an awful lot of bother from parents who like to take their wee ones to political rallies and such like it all adds up to the same thing but the state should have no part in peddling Bronze Age superstitions.

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## Alrock

> I tend to agree but you'd have an awful lot of bother from parents who like to take their wee ones to political rallies and such like it all adds up to the same thing but the state should have no part in peddling Bronze Age superstitions.


So what you should have said was...

...if parents wish to indoctrinate their children then that's unfortunately unavoidable but it should be firmly left out of School Curriculums.

Nothing fine about it.

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## BetterTogether

> So what you should have said was......if parents wish to indoctrinate their children then that's unfortunately unavoidable but it should be firmly left out of School Curriculums.Nothing fine about it.


I can accept that ! 

But if the named person scheme goes ahead who knows what might happen, might parent be hauled up for not teaching their children about superstitions !

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## Fulmar

_Eritrea doesn't really equate to North Korea in the totalitarian states league either also it's not infrequent for people to lie about their reasons to enter the country, the vast majority who I may add are paying people smugglers are economic migrants not fleeing oppression but hoping to jump the channel to find a nice country where there aren't any ID cards to stop them working and a healthy black economy to ease their new lives. 
_
This below was reported in the Guardian recently.
_A recent UN report condemned Eritrea’s government for its “systematic, widespread and gross human rights violations,” and accused the dictatorship of torturing its citizens._
_The country has a vast standing army due to a conscription system that often amounts to little more than slavery, from which thousands have fled._
_The regime has arrested 138 believers and church leaders as part of a crackdown on “non-traditional” Christian communities, according to the charity Open Doors._
_Mr Kesete’s congregation is mainly composed of migrants from Eritrea and Ethiopia. Britain last year suspended most of a £27 million aid programme to Ethiopia’s police force amid allegations of torture, rape and murder by the country’s regime.

_How sad to read of your negative attitudes towards people who hold a religious faith. The migrants in Calais evidently don't share your views and I would respectfully urge you too look at some of the images and accounts from the migrants church in the camp at Calais. A group of church folk from Folkestone have been visiting the Calais migrants for the last 14 years, taking food and books and other necessities with them and offering support- because that is what Christians do.

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## cptdodger

> because that is what Christians do.


Is this also what Christians do ? Is this acceptable if it is Christians doing it ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ed-Calais.html

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/583...r-lives-Calais

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## BetterTogether

> _[COLOR=#333333]_This below was reported in the Guardian recently.How sad to read of your negative attitudes towards people who hold a religious faith. The migrants in Calais evidently don't share your views and I would respectfully urge you too look at some of the images and accounts from the migrants church in the camp at Calais. A group of church folk from Folkestone have been visiting the Calais migrants for the last 14 years, taking food and books and other necessities with them and offering support- because that is what Christians do.



Or you could of just as easily written. 


A group of church folk from Folkestone have been visiting the Calais migrants for the last 14 years, taking  food and other necessities with them offering support for their illegal activities and encouragement to exacerbate the problem encouraging more to follow. Because that is what Christians do !

It should also be noted that a large percentage of those present in and around the Calais area seeking entrance to the UK are not Christian but of other faiths most of which are abrahamic and all of which are responsible for centuries of war and death across various continents. So excuse my lack of tolerance for a stone/Bronze Age belief system with no real proof system behind it, that has changed like the wind over the centuries to make itself fit in with the given society and provided more harm than good overall.

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## Fulmar

Well, by definition, any migrant who acted in the way you describe would not be a christian!
To be honest, I find your attitudes unbelievable. There you were, getting all hot under the collar about the racism of 'Gollygate' and yet you are evidently quite happy with the world situation; content to condemn thousands to hardship and death in the so-called 'third world ' that is getting too close for comfort to you now and to use the term 'economic migrant' to justify it in your own mind, 'well that's alright then'. Never mind that Europe and the West has grown fat on the wealth of the countries from which these poor people are fleeing; never mind the fact that we have obscenely too much in the west and the inequality is staggering. We squander food, we are wasteful, our practices and industries are causing the climate change from which the third world suffers- I could go on and on. So, some of the 'economic migrants' (and very many are not just that) decide that perhaps it is time that they had a chance at some of the good things that we enjoy and have enjoyed for so long and risk their lives for the chance of it- and they just happen to be 'other' than us. So put up the barricades and the razor wire and keep them all out. Treat them as less than human beings, even though we could easily help some of them and it would not even touch the sides. We are a WEALTHY country, however much folk complain, that is the truth. The situation with this nowhere near as bad as it was, for example after the second world war with millions of displaced and desperate people- and yet we managed because we had a better mindset.
Why were you not shouting when all the economic migrants came in from Poland and Romania? Were you wagging your finger, when many young folk went over from Ireland seeking work abroad in recent years due to collapse of the Irish economy? Was it because they were not quite so 'other' than us so you were able to say, well good luck to them?
Most of the people in Calais state that they want to come in and find work. Others, especially those from Syria, want to return home one day when their country is no longer a war-torn hell hole- a situation to which we, in the wider sense, have contributed.
I am not posting on this topic any longer. I know what I think and it is poles apart from your view so that is that. 
It is entirely possible that sometime in the future, our descendants might be the desperate people who are fleeing and looking for help from others. It is a case of being able to imagine that and showing some humanity. End of.

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## cptdodger

> Well, by definition, any migrant who acted in the way you describe would not be a christian!


Of course not, silly me they would never do any such thing, would they?.  I suppose Catholics (IRA) just conveniently forgot they were Christians when they were blowing people (including me) sky high ? 

I never called them "economic migrants" I am quite happy for anybody to enter this country *legally. 

*You're quite right, we are poles apart in our views, I think it is absolutely shocking British lorry drivers, as I pointed out, are in fear of their lives and being threatened and attacked.

 I find it shocking that people are losing their businesses, businesses that they have built up over years in order to provide for their families.

 I find it shocking that millions of pounds worth of stock has to be thrown away because of their reckless behaviour, Christian or not. 

I think it's safe to say we are poles apart.

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## Alrock

> I think it's safe to say we are poles apart.


Don't mention the Poles...  ::

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## theone

> Well, by definition, any migrant who acted in the way you describe would not be a christian!


By who's 'definition'?




> in the so-called 'third world '


Why is it 'so-called'?




> Never mind that Europe and the West has grown fat on the wealth of the countries from which these poor people are fleeing; never mind the fact that we have obscenely too much in the west and the inequality is staggering.


Because, as opposed to 'the west' those in 'the east' have so much equality? I'm thinking Russia, Dubai, China here, I don't see the equality, maybe you could enlighten me?




> our practices and industries are causing the climate change from which the third world suffers.


Within the top 10 ranked countries for per-capia CO2 emissions are Qatar, Trinidad and Tobago, Kuwait, Brunei, UAE and Bahrain.




> So, some of the 'economic migrants' (and very many are not just that)


Well then, what are they? Although I don't deny they have issues in their home countries, what are they fleeing France from?




> The situation with this nowhere near as bad as it was, for example after the second world war with millions of displaced and desperate people- and yet we managed because we had a better mindset.


Yes. The global acceptance that deliberately bombing civilians was acceptable so long as it hurt a country shows a much superior mindset.





> Why were you not shouting when all the economic migrants came in from Poland and Romania? Were you wagging your finger, when many young folk went over from Ireland seeking work abroad in recent years due to collapse of the Irish economy? Was it because they were not quite so 'other' than us so you were able to say, well good luck to them?


The people from these countries had the legal right to do so. They never did so through violence or by interrupting trade routes.




> Most of the people in Calais state that they want to come in and find work.


If they have the skills or education that we are currently looking for, then they are most welcome. They should apply for a visa like any other foreign national. If they are unskilled then they have no more chance of finding work in Britain than they do in France.




> I am not posting on this topic any longer.


That's a relief.

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## BetterTogether

Meanwhile a quick hop over the water in the incredibly friendly welcoming Sweden two people pay the ultimate price for unrestricted immigration. 



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...dish-IKEA.html

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## cptdodger

> Meanwhile a quick hop over the water in the incredibly friendly welcoming Sweden two people pay the ultimate price for unrestricted immigration. 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...dish-IKEA.html



I read that yesterday, absolutely shocking, what a shame.

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## BetterTogether

We also shouldn't mention the murder trial all over last nights news where they used machine guns in Glasgow. The offender was Somalian it's not the first time one of these poor immigrants trying to avoid the suppression in their own country has come here and committed heinous acts.

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## golach

> We also shouldn't mention the murder trial all over last nights news where they used machine guns in Glasgow. The offender was Somalian it's not the first time one of these poor immigrants trying to avoid the suppression in their own country has come here and committed heinous acts.


The shooting was in The Willowbrae area of Edinburgh BT sorry

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## squidge

As this thread is in danger of deteriorating into hysteria, let's have an alternative view http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...refugee-crisis

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## rob murray

> As this thread is in danger of deteriorating into hysteria, let's have an alternative view http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...refugee-crisis


I wouldnt say "hysteria" perhaps misinformed would be a better word to use......I  posted a url on this thread which exposes what is really gong on in Calais...I am re posting it https://calaismigrantsolidarity.wordpress.com/

People can read the guardian piece and the other url and then perhaps get a better understanding of the situation

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## BetterTogether

> The shooting was in The Willowbrae area of Edinburgh BT sorry


Thanks for that I stand corrected Edinburgh not Glasgow although the severity of the actions taken by these individuals isn't mitigated by it being in Edinburgh not Glasgow.




> As this thread is in danger of deteriorating into hysteria, let's have an alternative view http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...refugee-crisis


I wouldn't describe legitimate concerns over immigration hysteria, that becomes a fairly typical response to allow those of a certain political persuasion to take some kind of moral high ground.

According to the article you posted  62% aren't economic migrants and 70% of those qualify for asylum. 

That would probably be due to the well rehearsed stories they tell officials and papers they have already conveniently destroyed eh route to assist their stories. 

Calais only represents 1% of the total of people but that would be on any given day not those who have already made it across and those enroute so a statistic designed to minimalise the reality of a constant stream entering and crossing. 

The number of immigrants arriving in Europe is .0027% or 200,000 that's this year not the years prior to or following once again it's a steady influx that's showing no sign of diminishing. 

1.2 million in Lebanon well that's the size of a fairly major city.

 Then we have the £36.95 compared to France's £56.62 sounds wonderful until we remind ourselves that the other countries have identity cards and no black economy that allows them to work and claim. 

We could delve into the 50% figure but that's just nit picking about where the people originate from and does nothing to address the problem as a whole.

 You can carry on wading through all the figures and showing how there is another viewpoint but the most crass is the -76439 less, somehow suggesting that a drop in numbers entering this year over last year makes everything alright, let's put that in perspective more than double the number of people living in Caithness and Sutherland. 

Once again ignoring the fact we are not a country with a large landmass like France or Germany and are already the most densely populated country in Europe.

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## cptdodger

I have a lot of sympathy for the people in genuine need of help, however, I do not condone the violence they have shown in Calais towards lorry drivers, in any way shape or form. You try going to work on a daily basis and being in fear of your life.

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## squidge

> I wouldn't describe legitimate concerns over immigration hysteria, that becomes a fairly typical response to allow those of a certain political persuasion to take some kind of moral high ground.


Not at all a moral high ground - legitimate concerns over immigration are one thing - equating immigrants with dreadful crimes while ignoring the 100s of other reports of dreadful crimes committed by those people who are not immigrants is another. Doing That meant that this thread had the potential to descend into hysterical posts and I'm happy to have headed that off at the pass. 


> Then we have the £36.95 compared to France's £56.62 sounds wonderful until we remind ourselves that the other countries have identity cards and no black economy that allows them to work and claim


 You think France has no Black Economy???? Jeezo!!!!! It's thriving.

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## Fulmar

petition on change.org

We've all seen the news of desperate migrants trying to cross the channel. But few people know about the conditions people are living in. There is no less than *a humanitarian crisis on our doorstep* and western governments are turning their backs on it.
I know because* Im a nurse out here in Calais, giving medical support* to migrants who have* fled their countries because of war and persecution* and are now living in horrendous conditions. Whole families are crammed into small tents with poor access to food and water, leading to all sorts of terrible health problems. These include serious skin problems, *gangrene, breathing difficulties, diarrhoea and scabies.* Many have shattered bones after falling from trucks, have been slashed by razor wire climbing fences or have been beaten up.*Some are extremely vulnerable, including children and pregnant women.*
With needs ever increasing, it is charities and not governments that are picking up the pieces. The charity I volunteer for, Doctors of the World, is providing essential medical consultations and also psychological support for the many migrants traumatised by their experiences. The* French and British governments, meanwhile, look the other way, blaming each other while ordinary people step up and give money out of their own pockets.* Weve been overwhelmed by the response of those whove not just sent us donations but have set up their own crowdfunding pages.
The UK government has spent millions of taxpayers money on security measures to control the migrants. We shouldnt be standing by and letting those who need our support suffer --* the UK Government must set aside a fund for humanitarian needs.*
*Vulnerable people must come before fences and sniffer dogs.
*

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## BetterTogether

> Not at all a moral high ground - legitimate concerns over immigration are one thing - equating immigrants with dreadful crimes while ignoring the 100s of other reports of dreadful crimes committed by those people who are not immigrants is another. Doing That meant that this thread had the potential to descend into hysterical posts and I'm happy to have headed that off at the pass.


 There is nothing hysterical I'm simply highlighting a particularly horrendous crime carried out in major city that serves to remind us that not everyone who comes into this country is law abiding and peaceful hence the requirement for sensible immigration controls. Considering the problems which we are all very well aware of surrounding the Middle East common sense dictates that we as a nation are more careful when allowing people to enter our borders, let alone encourage the vile trade of people smuggling whose proceeds go directly to criminal gangs and terrorist groups.

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## BetterTogether

> petition on change.orgWe've all seen the news of desperate migrants trying to cross the channel. But few people know about the conditions people are living in. There is no less than *a humanitarian crisis on our doorstep* and western governments are turning their backs on it.I know because* Im a nurse out here in Calais, giving medical support* to migrants who have* fled their countries because of war and persecution* and are now living in horrendous conditions. Whole families are crammed into small tents with poor access to food and water, leading to all sorts of terrible health problems. These include serious skin problems, *gangrene, breathing difficulties, diarrhoea and scabies.* Many have shattered bones after falling from trucks, have been slashed by razor wire climbing fences or have been beaten up.*Some are extremely vulnerable, including children and pregnant women.*With needs ever increasing, it is charities and not governments that are picking up the pieces. The charity I volunteer for, Doctors of the World, is providing essential medical consultations and also psychological support for the many migrants traumatised by their experiences. The* French and British governments, meanwhile, look the other way, blaming each other while ordinary people step up and give money out of their own pockets.* Weve been overwhelmed by the response of those whove not just sent us donations but have set up their own crowdfunding pages.The UK government has spent millions of taxpayers money on security measures to control the migrants. We shouldnt be standing by and letting those who need our support suffer --* the UK Government must set aside a fund for humanitarian needs.**Vulnerable people must come before fences and sniffer dogs.*


Sorry if I don't have much sympathy for people who have broken bones falling off lorries they had no legal right to be on in the first place, slashing themselves on razor wire fences specifically put up so they don't climb over them or being beaten while rioting trying to force their way into areas they have no legal right to be in. Lawlessness is not to be encouraged or rewarded.

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## BetterTogether

It's difficult to know exactly how many illegal immigrants are in Britain.In 2009 the London School of Economics estimated the figure was between 417,000 and 863,000. There's been no major study since.The UK population as of January this year 64,596,000An increase of 491,000 on the previous year.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33266792So if we look at those figures we can extrapolate that roughly 1 person in every 65  worst case scenario is now an illegal immigrant. Maybe slightly more maybe slightly less. How can any right minded person say that this isn't a major issue for a country. Note those figures do not include those legally entering the country.

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## rob murray

Calais.....the need for an agreed EU strategy ? 

The number of displaced persons in the world is constantly rising Violence and conflict are the leading causes of this. Europe, which is neighbour to many war zones takes in more than 1.5 million legal migrants 
 yearly but in the third quarter of 2014 there were 128,725 illegal immigrants on its territory .The number of asylum seekers could surge to 700,000 (+28%). The number of illegal entries into Europe could rise beyond the 276,113 in 2014 [5] (60,000 of whom via the sea). The detected flow of illegal immigrants has never been as high as in 2014, up by 170% in comparison with 2013. It is due to surge again in 2015 in which the first two months recorded an increase of over 200% in comparison with 2014.

The challenges are significant.

How can Europe mobilise with the international community to prevent the dramatic events that are forcing whole families to try everything in their power to guarantee survival?
How can the Union be a political and financial relay to make even greater improvements to what has already been done?
How should the Member States act and cooperate to prevent these transfers of population?
How do we explain at home that this immigration cannot be prevented short term, that it requires determined action long term, and how can we take on the political responsibility for it in a time when populism is gaining ground, when there are economic difficulties without challenging the notion of free movement and the Schengen Agreements, which, contrary to political discourse, are functioning correctly? We can expect the migratory issue to become increasingly political. Let us hope that Europe can respond intelligently by rejecting g*eneralisations and simplistic discourse b*y being true to its values, notably in terms of asylum and yet be more effective.	

Edited from a lenghty piece http://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/euro...-mediterranean  "The Challenge of Illegal Immigration in the Mediterranean" : The Research and studies centre on europe : highly artiulcate impartial researched piece that raises key issues

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## BetterTogether

We can always learn from history and what happened to those who went before us. 


Whilst I do not suggest for one reasons are the same non the less similarities can be drawn. 


It may be worth reading up on the fall of the Roman Empire.

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## rob murray

[QUOTE=BetterTogether;1126887]We can always learn from history and what happened to those who went before us. 


Whilst I do not suggest for one reasons are the same non the less similarities can be drawn. 

Well in one word Rome fell because of complacency ! Whats causing the mediterean problem stems from the middle east....and we know that the issues stem back to the The *Sykes–Picot Agreement*, in WW1 when the UK and France carved up the middle east, and lats c20 US warfare disruptions which dramatically changed the poltical landscale....why for greed / oil....so is the US the new roman empire... as we ( the UK ) are nowt but an insignificant pimple on the geo political stage.

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## pig whisperer

Maybe charities could set up a register of people who would be prepared to house, feed, and pay the way for  genuine asylum seekers for at least 12 months,

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## rob murray

> Maybe charities could set up a register of people who would be prepared to house, feed, and pay the way for  genuine asylum seekers for at least 12 months,


When Ugandan Asians were expelled from Uganada in early 70's refugees were located and housed all over the country, including Wick, I believe there was a coordinated effort involving charities, churches and the state to help deal with the influx. So I would agree with your suggestion

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## cptdodger

> Maybe charities could set up a register of people who would be prepared to house, feed, and pay the way for  genuine asylum seekers for at least 12 months,


Which, in theory is great, in reality, not so much. I lived in Chatham, Kent for a few years, which is where a lot of genuine and as it turned out, not so genuine asylum seekers were placed. Certain parts of Chatham were turned into mini war zones as they had mixed different factions of people in the same area. Not a very pleasant experience, I have to tell you.

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## Fulmar

PETITION UPDATE


*The Humans Behind the Statistics**Philip Andrews*London, United Kingdom




13 Aug 2015 — There is a lot of talk in the press at the moment about all the numbers of how many migrants there are and who is taking the most and etc etc that it is easy to forget that each of those is a human being living in situations that makes my stomach turn. We are working hard to improve this but there is still so much more work to do. 

It has been overwhelming how in the last 48 hours 50,000 people have already signed this petition. It has been a huge encouragement to the team here to know that so many of you are behind the work we are doing here. I tell some of the migrants I work with and it brings a smile to their faces to know that the headlines they hear about themselves is not what everyone in UK believes. 

So thank you very much for your support!

If you haven't already passed this on to your friends and family then please do as I know that there are a lot more people out there who feel the same way we do! Let see if we can't get a 100,000 or maybe a million?

see the dream - make it happen

Phil

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## cptdodger

> I am not posting on this topic any longer.


Changed your mind then ?

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## squidge

Jeane Freeman talks in today's National about the negativity which pervades everything and particularly this migrant crisis and the way austerity is affecting people. There is another narrative though.

All over Britain and Europe people are coming together in their communities to tackle issues they think need tackling.  

Jeane says 

"Negativity both hides fear and preys on it too. The fear of those in power that they may lose their grip on that slippery ledge. The fear we may have of change, of stepping forward, of challenging accepted thinking. The shiver of fear we can all feel when we realise we can make our own and other’s lives better if we dare to take the first step. Those steps are being taken, to feed and clothe children, to help families struggling, to reach out and welcome those so desperate for life that they are willing to risk it. We need to keep taking those steps and proving that it is positivity, and only that, which works. Hope, realised in action, can make negativity shrivel and fade away"

Maybe we should take this thread and instead of saying we can't we can't we can't we should think about what we can do to change things, not just for the migrants in Calais or dying in their hundreds in boats in the Mediterranean, but maybe also closer to home.

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## BetterTogether

> Jeane Freeman talks in today's National about the negativity which pervades everything and particularly this migrant crisis and the way austerity is affecting people. There is another narrative though.All over Britain and Europe people are coming together in their communities to tackle issues they think need tackling.  Jeane says "Negativity both hides fear and preys on it too. The fear of those in power that they may lose their grip on that slippery ledge. The fear we may have of change, of stepping forward, of challenging accepted thinking. The shiver of fear we can all feel when we realise we can make our own and other’s lives better if we dare to take the first step. Those steps are being taken, to feed and clothe children, to help families struggling, to reach out and welcome those so desperate for life that they are willing to risk it. We need to keep taking those steps and proving that it is positivity, and only that, which works. Hope, realised in action, can make negativity shrivel and fade away"Maybe we should take this thread and instead of saying we can't we can't we can't we should think about what we can do to change things, not just for the migrants in Calais or dying in their hundreds in boats in the Mediterranean, but maybe also closer to home.


Or you can accept the much simpler ...we don't want to !  

 It's all very well posting petition showing 50,000 signatures but out of a population of 64.5 million that's small beer it's not as though we hear the majority of the population crying out to assist these people trying to forcefully gain entry to our country.

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## cptdodger

Or you could look at it this way - http://www.cpag.org.uk/child-poverty-facts-and-figures. From that website - "There were 3.7 million children living  in poverty in the UK in 2013-14. That’s 28 per cent of children, or 9  in a classroom of 30."

Or this - http://www.crisis.org.uk/pages/homel...f-numbers.html. From that website -In Scotland:

Just over 35,000 households applied for homelessness assistance in 2014/15 - four per cent lower than the previous year.29,565 were accepted as homeless.

The United Kingdom as a whole can hardly cope with the people that already live here as it is, these are fundamental things we should be getting right first. Whether you accept it or not, Britain cannot help everybody. The NHS is in meltdown (especially here) it cannot cope with a further strain on it's finances.

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## squidge

Is anyone asking Britain to help EVERYBODY? I don't think that is at all what I or anyone else posting here says. However, at the moment Britsin is doing NOTHING. 

This is a responsibity we share with the rest of Europe and it's shocking to see how we are doing nothing. 

And Cpt I know the child poverty figures too - they are indicative of the same attitude. I'm alright Jack and I don't care about you. Whether that is people living in poverty here, Using food banks, unable to pay bills, heat houses or buy school uniforms, facing a massive fine for stealing mars bars cos their benefits had been sanctioned or whether its asylum seekers or migrants in Calais, or in boats in the Mediterranean - it's the same "we can't look after everyone so we will just look after ourselves" attitude.

All I suggested was we try to think about what we CAN do to help people internationally and domestically.

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## cptdodger

> However, at the moment Britsin is doing NOTHING.


Have you ever lived in Kent ?

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## squidge

No, I lived in Manchester but as my post asked what would you do to do something to help people internationally and domestically? What are your "can do" rather than "can't do" ideas?

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## Fulmar

*Rt Hon David Cameron MP: Provide urgent medical support to vulnerable...*Petition by Philip Andrews · *60,562 supporters*

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## cptdodger

> No, I lived in Manchester


What you need to do then, is go and spend a month in either the Medway Towns, Dover, especially Folkestone Road and Folkestone itself. Then you will see first hand the "nothing" Britain is doing. This has not just happened overnight, this has been going on since I lived there. What do you think happens when people enter this country illegally? Do you think that they are all rounded up and immediately removed from Britain? What about the hundreds, probably thousands of illegal immigrants now that are not caught, where do you think they go?

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## Fulmar

“We’re not politicians, we don’t pretend to have all the answers, and we’re not charity workers. We’re just normal people from Kent who want to help our fellow human beings with their basic needs,” says Jasmine O’Hara, a member of the Worldwide Tribe in Calais, a grassroots social activist group set up in response to the migrant crisis.
The ethos behind the group, she says, is “We are all the same. The world is our home and we believe it is imperative to have a global mindset and conscience.” Its Facebook page, where the Worldwide Tribe’s work is documented, has more than 21,000 likes. And the team of seven people, aged between 18 and 39, has raised more than £50,000 in a week.

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## cptdodger

> “We’re not politicians, we don’t pretend to have all the answers, and we’re not charity workers. We’re just normal people from Kent who want to help our fellow human beings with their basic needs,” says Jasmine O’Hara, a member of the Worldwide Tribe in Calais, a grassroots social activist group set up in response to the migrant crisis.
> The ethos behind the group, she says, is “We are all the same. The world is our home and we believe it is imperative to have a global mindset and conscience.” Its Facebook page, where the Worldwide Tribe’s work is documented, has more than 21,000 likes. And the team of seven people, aged between 18 and 39, has raised more than £50,000 in a week.


Are you just going to continue to copy and paste, what is the point of you being on this thread ?

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## squidge

> Were not politicians, we dont pretend to have all the answers, and were not charity workers. Were just normal people from Kent who want to help our fellow human beings with their basic needs, says Jasmine OHara, a member of the Worldwide Tribe in Calais, a grassroots social activist group set up in response to the migrant crisis.The ethos behind the group, she says, is We are all the same. The world is our home and we believe it is imperative to have a global mindset and conscience. Its Facebook page, where the Worldwide Tribes work is documented, has more than 21,000 likes. And the team of seven people, aged between 18 and 39, has raised more than £50,000 in a week.


That's what Jeane was talking about. Ordinary people just getting on with it. Just now Cpt Britain is doing nothing to resolve the crisis which is affecting Europe. People, in local towns like in the post above are just getting in with it - doing what they can to help people and ensure that these people who are desperate and living in appalling conditions. What is Britain - the government doing to resolve this situation? Help desperate people to be dealt with properly. Maybe you can tell me what the UK government is doing?

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## BetterTogether

What about the ordinary people who now feel like strangers in their own country swamped in areas which have been directly affected by uncontrolled immigration over the past decades. Why is it some feel that we should just keep the doors open to anyone and everyone who turns up at our door. We have hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants already in this country and sometimes it's quite right to say we no longer wish to accept more people into the country unless they can provide skills we want. It isn't this countries job to act as world policeman or as European refugee camp. It's all well and good hand wringing and keep saying we should do more and more but where do you draw a line and say enough is enough.

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## squidge

Whenever anyone questions your send them all home, don't let them in posts you assume that means open the doors and let everyone in. Why do you do that?

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## BetterTogether

> Whenever anyone questions your send them all home, don't let them in posts you assume that means open the doors and let everyone in. Why do you do that?


Maybe you should read again s l o w l y and understand the simple caveat " unless they can provide the skills we want " simple really you have skills as a country we require go through the legal process accept the rules and welcome. 

Rather than just ignore the rule of law and chance your arm and force your way into the country.

 It's not as though we don't already have systems in place to handle legitimate asylum seekers, but it's much easier to ignore the existing rules and become hysterical because people are quite deliberately paying gangs to transport them here and then force their way into the country.

 I say those who use the current system all well and good those who choose to flout the law and pander to the hysterical liberals within our society who believe every hard luck story them goodbye you're not wanted as you've already proven yourselves not to be law abiding citizens but those quite happy to use illegality to get your own way already.

Seems the real hysteria is being hyped by a certain type of person pandering to people who are quite happy to ignore European law, international law, UK law and then convince us the slightly more cynical but realistic general populous that we should just allow more and more people into the country. 

I'm afraid you can't complain about austerity, food banks, poverty, failing NHS, oversized classes, benefits cuts, strained public services then say ahh but we should be allowing tens of thousands more into the country. 

It's beginning to sound like some kind of fairytale where everyone can get everything and nothing has to give elsewhere. Maybe just maybe instead of worrying about everyone else everywhere you should turn your efforts to considering those who require assistance within our borders. 

Any migrants who reaches Calais has already passes through at least two European countries already sometimes more you seem to think that those already within France are a problem for the UK in reality they are a French problem, which has been passed onto

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## golach

A wee question Squidge, what is the Nats solution to this problem with these refugees be they legal or not? I have not heard much from the gang of 56 or Holyrood, lately, Eck and Nicola have been very lacking with their solutions, maybe you can enlighten us

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## squidge

> Maybe you should read again s l o w l y and understand the simple caveat " unless they can provide the skills we want " simple really you have skills as a country we require go through the legal process accept the rules and welcome. Rather than just ignore the rule of law and chance your arm and force your way into the country. It's not as though we don't already have systems in place to handle legitimate asylum seekers, but it's much easier to ignore the existing rules and become hysterical because people are quite deliberately paying gangs to transport them here and then force their way into the country. I say those who use the current system all well and good those who choose to flout the law and pander to the hysterical liberals within our society who believe every hard luck story them goodbye you're not wanted as you've already proven yourselves not to be law abiding citizens but those quite happy to use illegality to get your own way already.Seems the real hysteria is being hyped by a certain type of person pandering to people who are quite happy to ignore European law, international law, UK law and then convince us the slightly more cynical but realistic general populous that we should just allow more and more people into the country. I'm afraid you can't complain about austerity, food banks, poverty, failing NHS, oversized classes, benefits cuts, strained public services then say ahh but we should be allowing tens of thousands more into the country. It's beginning to sound like some kind of fairytale where everyone can get everything and nothing has to give elsewhere. Maybe just maybe instead of worrying about everyone else everywhere you should turn your efforts to considering those who require assistance within our borders. Any migrants who reaches Calais has already passes through at least two European countries already sometimes more you seem to think that those already within France are ai problem for the UK in reality they are a French problem, which has been passed onto


And once again -  I have made no suggestions that we should let everyone and their dog into the country without any sort of checks or laws.  I pointed  out in my previous posts how people are getting on with helping others who require assistance within our own borders. 

What I have said is that the refugee situation in Calais and within the whole of the EU is an international issue - people are dying, living in squalor, it's affecting our businesses and our citizens and I am simply asking you to think about what  we CAN do to sort it out alongside our neighbours rather than what we can't. 

Golach I'm not posting on behalf of the SNP - If you want to know their policies then look it up or write to your MP.

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## golach

> What I have said is that the refugee situation in Calais and within the whole of the EU is an international issue - people are dying, living in squalor, it's affecting our businesses and our citizens and I am simply asking you to think about what  we CAN do to sort it out alongside our neighbours rather than what we can't. 
> 
> Golach I'm not posting on behalf of the SNP - If you want to know their policies then look it up or write to your MP.


Well why am I not surprised at Squidge's reply, typical scot nat sloping shoulders, lots of words, but saying nothing.

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## BetterTogether

It would appear part of the solution was Build Bigger Fences seems the problem at Calais has eased somewhat according to this mornings news.

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## Fulmar

> It would appear part of the solution was Build Bigger Fences seems the problem at Calais has eased somewhat according to this mornings news.


I also heard the report. I believe that it has only 'eased' in the sense that the new deployment of a greater number of security personnel along with erection of additional fences has prevented so many migrants from reaching the platforms and attempting to board trains although some are seemingly still managing to get through. This has made things better for holiday makers etc but whether it has 'eased the problem at Calais' remains open to debate. Not in my view anyway.
Just thought I would write this before I get told again that I have no business posting on this topic or doing the minute amount of copying and pasting that I have been guilty of above, compared to the acres of the stuff that the ruling elite on here have endlessly carried out (on other threads) with never a word said about how they should not be doing so.

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## cptdodger

> Just thought I would write this before I get told again that I have no business posting on this topic or doing the minute amount of copying and pasting that I have been guilty of above, compared to the acres of the stuff that the ruling elite on here have endlessly carried out (on other threads) with never a word said about how they should not be doing so.


The ruling elite ?? All you have done on this thread is post how awful we are because we do not want hundreds if not thousand of _illegal_ immigrants invading this country _illegally._ And yes, I stress the word _illegal._ You then resorted to cutting and pasting only because we did not agree with your view, and because we did'nt agree, we are horrible people.

Maybe we have written "acres" on this and other threads, but at least we wrote the posts,  it is then down to you whether you agree with what myself and other people wrote or not, but have the decency to respond in your own words and without the name calling.

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## rob murray

> And once again -  I have made no suggestions that we should let everyone and their dog into the country without any sort of checks or laws.  I pointed  out in my previous posts how people are getting on with helping others who require assistance within our own borders. 
> 
> What I have said is that the refugee situation in Calais and within the whole of the EU is an international issue - people are dying, living in squalor, it's affecting our businesses and our citizens and I am simply asking you to think about what  we CAN do to sort it out alongside our neighbours rather than what we can't. 
> 
> Golach I'm not posting on behalf of the SNP - If you want to know their policies then look it up or write to your MP.


Write to our MP....you are having a laugh....

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## squidge

> Well why am I not surprised at Squidge's reply, typical scot nat sloping shoulders, lots of words, but saying nothing.


For the love of Mike.... I said that this is an international issue and the purpose of my posts was simply to ask a question about what we can do!!!!BT has replied that we CAN build higher fences but that doesn't address the international issues. Have you got some ideas or do you simply want to be rude and have a dig?

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## Fulmar

I have written one post that was misunderstood and which I later explained and another in which I got, admittedly, a little heated but I have not name-called anyone nor said that they were 'horrible'. I think that folk can make up their own minds as to who is doing the name calling on here and I have certainly been made to feel unwelcome. Well, if you have taken offence then I am sorry.
As for the cutting and pasting, it was to show (as Squidge also says), that thousands of people dare to think differently on this, including people living in Kent (which was also referred to on here. I do not know why it was seen in any other light than that.
I have said consistently that I think that we could admit and help some of these people and have never said anything other than that.

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## BetterTogether

> For the love of Mike.... I said that this is an international issue and the purpose of my posts was simply to ask a question about what we can do!!!!BT has replied that we CAN build higher fences but that doesn't address the international issues. Have you got some ideas or do you simply want to be rude and have a dig?


Internationally I believe other countries are building big fences, Donald Trump wants a big wall. Seems big fences and big walls are the way forward. And as an upshot think of all the jobs they'll create in the construction industry.

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## Alrock

> ....And as an upshot think of all the jobs they'll create in the construction industry.


& who'll get them there jobs... Imigrants I tell you... Imigrants!

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## golach

> For the love of Mike.... I said that this is an international issue and the purpose of my posts was simply to ask a question about what we can do!!!!BT has replied that we CAN build higher fences but that doesn't address the international issues. Have you got some ideas or do you simply want to be rude and have a dig?


My posts never intend to be rude to you, but I have noticed that when I disagree with one of your pro SNP posts, I get accused of being rude. I do not agree with your points of view most of the time, just shows that there is a yes/no divide still and as far as I am concerned there always will be.

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## squidge

> My posts never intend to be rude to you, but I have noticed that when I disagree with one of your pro SNP posts, I get accused of being rude. I do not agree with your points of view most of the time, just shows that there is a yes/no divide still and as far as I am concerned there always will be.


How was my post "pro SNP"? I actually was trying to change the direction of the discussion from the endless discussions about what we CANT do to what we CAN do. 

Your response said... "typical scot nat sloping shoulders, lots of words, but saying nothing." You were never bring complimentary Golach lol. I get very tired of your snidey little digs. It's boring and tiresome. I simply suggested that if you want an answer from the SNP about SNP policy that you ... Shock horror... Ask one of their elected representatives. 

Finally - the only person creating any sort of divide is you. i havent given any sort of consideration to what anyone voted in the referendum since 19th September 2015. I have made no judgements about anyone based on their independence position EVER. You however harp on about it all the time and judge every one by yes or no. 

I'm still trying to find out what people think we can do about the refugee crisis. Any suggestions?

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## BetterTogether

> I'm still trying to find out what people think we can do about the refugee crisis. Any suggestions?


Stop selling inflatable boats to the Middle East or African Countries. 

Definitely don't build any tunnels. 

Also really high Walls Or Fences seem to work quite well. 

And I do mean really High !

That's like really really really High oh and wide as well !

I've also heard Boris has a couple of water canon sitting around not doing much maybe they could lend them to the Greeks, as they are skint and  jet them back across quickly !

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## squidge

I don't even know what to say to this! was it an attempt at humour? If not it shows a complete ignorance, lack of understanding and actually a lack of humanity. 

Many of the people arriving in Europe have taken their children, given up their homes, dressed them and put them in inflatable boats in the hope of escaping what has clearly become an intolerable dangerous situation for them. Many of them have not only risked their lives but the lives of their children. How desperate do you have to be to do that? 

You think they do that to get £35 a week from the UK government? 

What we need is for all EU members to take responsibility for assessing people on arrival in Europe, a robust joint action which makes sure they don't live in squalor or in the streets and which identifies refugees, asylum seekers and processes them quickly and efficiently. Every country needs to take their share of these poor people. Some have relatives, even husbands or wives already in Britain - settled. We could easily take those people. I'm not suggesting that we take everyone but that we are part of resolving this issue and we take a share. 

On top of that URGENT international effort needs to be made to resolve the issues which make people flee their homes. The international community is in part responsible for some of the problems and must be part of the solutions. Not sure THATS happening either. This situation is a global problem, it needs an international response and Britain needs to be part of that. In a week that has seen maybe as many as 70 people, men women and children die in the back of a truck, surely you can see that what we have, in Europe, and in Britain isn't working.

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## squidge

Bit more information for Everyone

http://tracks.unhcr.org/2015/08/mira...htmare-at-sea/

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## squidge

Germany has also come up with a ten point plan which puts Britain's contribution to the debate to shame. Here it is.

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier and Economics Minister Sigmar Gabriel wrote in an opinion piece, identifying a 10 point plan. Europe is facing a great challenge for our generation. Never before have so many people fled political persecution and war as today, many of whom seek refuge here with us in Europe. In view of the crises in our neighbourhood, we must assume that this could remain the case for years. As Europeans, we owe it to ourselves and to the world to rise to the great challenge posed by these people looking for help.One thing is clear, and that is that the response so far does not meet the standards that Europe must set for itself. Europe cannot put this off any longer and the EU must act now.

 We must therefore pursue a European asylum, refugee and migration policy that is founded on the principle of solidarity and our shared values of humanity. Ten points must urgently be addressed in this regard: 

First, humane conditions must prevail throughout the EU when refugees are received. For this, we need EU-wide standards that are complied with in every EU member state. 

Second, a common European code of asylum must guarantee asylum status that is valid throughout the EU for refugees in need of protection. Looking to the future, we need a new, much more ambitious integration of European asylum policy. 

Third, we need a fair distribution of refugees in Europe. The citizens of our country are helping to receive and integrate refugees into our society as never before. This solidarity will only be maintained long-term if people see that the refugee crisis is being approached fairly throughout Europe. A state of affairs in which – as today – only a handful of member states shoulder the entire burden is just as unsustainable as a system that forces those countries that happen to form the outer border of the EU to take the strain alone. We must therefore reform the existing Dublin system. We need binding and objective criteria for refugee quotas for all member states that take their respective capabilities into account. 

Fourth, Europe needs a common approach to managing its borders, which cannot be merely restricted to securing our frontiers. Above all, we need more European responsibility for registering and looking after newly arrived refugees. 

Fifth, we must provide immediate assistance to the EU countries that are currently under particular strain. Germany is the only EU country to have made available emergency funds to improve the situation of refugees on the Greek islands. The EU and its member states must become more efficient in this area and quickly offer countries first receiving refugees practical and financial support. For us in Germany, we must ensure that the municipal authorities above all are able to cope with the giant challenges before them. In order to do this, we must provide them with lasting and systematic financial support.

 Sixth, we cannot stand idly by and watch people risk their lives trying to get to us. The Mediterranean Sea cannot be a mass grave for desperate refugees. Europe’s humanitarian legacy, indeed our European view of humanity, are hanging in the balance. With this in mind, we launched enormous concerted efforts to organise marine rescue operations in the Mediterranean Sea in the spring. We must consolidate these efforts across Europe in the long term and equip the EU with the required capacities. In the long run, we will only be able to help refugees in need of protection if those who are not entitled to asylum return to their countries of origin. 

For this, we must, seventh, make readmission a key priority of our relations with the countries of origin and also be prepared to make technical and financial support for these counties contingent on constructive cooperation. Existing incentives such as visa facilitations could be expanded. 

Eighth, we must come to an EU-wide understanding as to which nations we consider to be safe countries of origin. All countries of the western Balkans aim to join the EU, and we have good cause to extend to them the prospect of accession to the Community. By the same token, this means that we cannot treat them as persecuting countries at the same time. In the future, a country that fulfils the criteria to be an EU accession candidate should be considered throughout the EU to be a safe country of origin. 

Ninth, Germany needs an immigration Act. We need a prudent, controlled immigration policy that facilitates lawful stays for the purposes of employment. We must reduce the burden on the asylum system in this area. 

Tenth, a comprehensive European asylum, refugee and migration policy also requires new political initiatives to fight the causes of flight in the countries of the Middle East and Africa. Stabilising failing states and curbing violence and civil war must go hand in hand with concentrated efforts to achieve economic development and create genuine economic and social prospects – especially for young people in the countries of origin. All of the international community’s efforts, above all those of the European Union and the United Nations, must be focused with the utmost intensity on this aim.

All of this goes to show that the political framework for action has long since ceased to be national – also and particularly with regard to refugee and migration policy. Only together and only at the European level will we be able at all to find rational solutions. 

Worth comparing and contrasting this thoughtful approach with That of the UK, who according to channel four news have taken only 216 Syrian refugees so far!

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## BetterTogether

Lots of " we must " " we cannot " and " we need " in your post but the reality us we actually don't have to do an awful lot except keep our borders secure.

No one forces these people to pay people smugglers to funnel them up through numerous other countries to our border. 

We currently live in the most densely populated country in Europe, populations are not declining and we had a report very recently that over 8 million where not born in this nation.

Those number do not include the illegal immigrants who do not show on the radar. 

It's very easy to keep demanding that we let more and more people into the country using excuses that we need them but the reality is our public services are under huge strain by the increase in population. 

The standard excuse of we need immigrants to fill jobs is one of a self fulfilling one bring in a million people so we can employ 10,000 in the NHS. 

It's about time those we cry and hand wring that we aren't doing enough should take a long hard look at our major cities and see that they no longer represent the indigenous people of these islands but are a multi cultural mish mash of multi ethnicities thrust upon the whole nation by those intent on creating some kind of utopian daydream.

We are constantly shown boatloads of people mainly young men trying to enter our country, yes there are a few women and children in amongst them but for the larger part they are men.

 How can we as a small island keep taking more and more people from a huge continent maybe those same young men should stay in their own countries and stand for what they believe in, as we have done in this country down through the centuries. 
It's not as though wars, civil wars and social unrest are unknown in Europe we have just succeeded in creating a small point in history that we are managing to live relatively peacefully. 
If those young men keep fleeing then the countries they leave will remain unstable and never find peace and Europe will eventually become inundated with people from everywhere else. 

Maybe it's about time they stayed and fought for their own countries and threw over the despots and tyrannical regimes.

We are not international policemen nor a world refugee camp and sometimes we should sit back and say not my problem do nothing then shortly after the flood will stop when they realise that we aren't accepting everyone in anymore.

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## squidge

Does it suit you to talk about men? 

Does it suit you to ignore the fact that there are women and children, fathers and children dying. 

There are pictures today of dead children washed upon beaches. This isn't about filling jobs, it isn't about taking "immigrants" or "migrant workers and framing the debate as such demeans you. This is about a REFUGEE Crisis. We don't need them but, my god, they need us. They need us to see who they really are and why they are really in the situation they are in and they need us to care about their children dying. 

We arent the worlds policemen when it suits you and others like you. But we surely are when WE think it's ok to go into Libya or Syria - even after promising in parliament that our troops won't be doing so. And yet when people need our help we, you, turn away.

Well "Better Together" you shut your door, you turn your head away and feel safe when you are tucked up in your bed at night. Be happy that Britain's borders are closed and don't worry about those people dying because they are trying to escape a nightmare that we in our cosy lives can't imagine even in our worst nightmares. In the meantime there are a number of local highland organisations trying to arrange donations of clothes and food for those people in Calais and more widely throughout Europe. There is a Facebook page been set up. If you want to help PM me for details. 

It's not much. It's not enough by anybody's measure - oh except Maybe you, Better Together- it's probably too much for you. But it IS something and in a society full of heartless inhumanity it is, at least a step In The right direction. 

BT nothing I say again on this subject is for you. I have utterly no respect for your view on this subject and I'm not going to engage with you over this again. I did think about sending you a link to the pictures of dead children that I inadvertently saw last night,  or the one to the Syrian mother with her dead baby but I decided it wouldn't do any good and you would only scream about being bullied or demand my banning so I didn't bother. But don't expect me to discuss this situation with you again, I'd do as well talking to a piece of rock in my garden

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## davth

We should never have entered, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya or Syria. 
The Iraq was was Illegal and arguably kicked off the world as we know it today.
But we are where we are now.
The situation with the immigrants is terrible but I dont think the UK as a nation can afford to keep our doors open to them.
Our NHS and social systems are crumbling under the pressure placed upon them and as a finite resource I fear they will collapse.

Lets not forget though that generally its the innocent that are suffering here, the EU need to stamp out the human trafficking gangs as a priority.
Then get refugee camps set up in the country of destination in the EU, not the country that is perceived as the land of milk and honey. 
The trafficking gangs want them in the UK to exploit their benifits.

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## BetterTogether

> Does it suit you to talk about men? Does it suit you to ignore the fact that there are women and children, fathers and children dying. There are pictures today of dead children washed upon beaches. This isn't about filling jobs, it isn't about taking "immigrants" or "migrant workers and framing the debate as such demeans you. This is about a REFUGEE Crisis. We don't need them but, my god, they need us. They need us to see who they really are and why they are really in the situation they are in and they need us to care about their children dying. We arent the worlds policemen when it suits you and others like you. But we surely are when WE think it's ok to go into Libya or Syria - even after promising in parliament that our troops won't be doing so. And yet when people need our help we, you, turn away.Well "Better Together" you shut your door, you turn your head away and feel safe when you are tucked up in your bed at night. Be happy that Britain's borders are closed and don't worry about those people dying because they are trying to escape a nightmare that we in our cosy lives can't imagine even in our worst nightmares. In the meantime there are a number of local highland organisations trying to arrange donations of clothes and food for those people in Calais and more widely throughout Europe. There is a Facebook page been set up. If you want to help PM me for details. It's not much. It's not enough by anybody's measure - oh except Maybe you, Better Together- it's probably too much for you. But it IS something and in a society full of heartless inhumanity it is, at least a step In The right direction. BT nothing I say again on this subject is for you. I have utterly no respect for your view on this subject and I'm not going to engage with you over this again. I did think about sending you a link to the pictures of dead children that I inadvertently saw last night,  or the one to the Syrian mother with her dead baby but I decided it wouldn't do any good and you would only scream about being bullied or demand my banning so I didn't bother. But don't expect me to discuss this situation with you again, I'd do as well talking to a piece of rock in my garden


Ah Squidge there you go again trying to resolve all the worlds problems from your big comfy armchair. 

I doubt you've ever served on the sharp end and actually seen dead bodies and mutilatation or any of the other atrocities mankind chooses to inflict on itself. 

Just for the record I have and it will serve you well to remember I have served this country in some of our military interventions to try and restore some chance of humanity and civilisation to them. 

It cannot be the fault of the west that each time a despotic regime  is removed and the people of the nations we interven in choose to ignore the opportunity given to them and once again descend their countries into what is no more than civil wars and permeate more barbarities upon each other. 

As I have said previously this country has paid its price with the lives on man men and women to bring peace to our own shores and those of others it is time for those countries to put their own houses in order. 

Your sanctimonious pious waffling are no more than that don't offer to send me pictures when I've seen and experienced more in real life than any picture you send .

You sit there an imagine your worst nightmare I can shut my eyes and recall the smell of death and decay something thankfully you never will, so do not dare for shame lecture me on enjoying the land I've fought for and wishing to remain a safe comfortable place for those who live here. 

Why don't you for once stop lecturing us all and go do some voluntary work for the Red Cross or Medicin San Frontiers and actually experience the realities then come back and maybe just maybe we can discuss these foreign countries you've only read or watched on TV but no clue how about how they really function the tribal and religious factions that tear them apart regardless of anything we do here.

Meanwhile you sit there have your nice comfy chats and tea parties and lecture everyone else on how to do everything with your nice middle class middle of the road existence but forget that others have experienced first hand some of what you can only IMAGINE and that's the problem it's all IMAGINATION not based on any first hand experience whatsoever no in depth knowledge except what you consider from pictures and media. 

Let me tell you this for free many of the countries and people you wish to help would take every penny you have your house life savings and then think nothing of throwing you in an unmarked hole in the ground for all your generosity, your civilised liberal western view is mocked by them and taken advantage of, it's seen as a sign of utter weakness to be abused that's why so many of these so called immigrants choose not to seek political asylum but force their wants on our country as though it's their birthright.

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## davth

ooft.....
Dont hold back there BT

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## BetterTogether

> ooft.....Dont hold back there BT


Well we hear an awful lot from Mdm Squidge who use the proverbial " we " as though she speaks for the whole nation but " we " that silent majority have already seen how wonky her views are utterly wrong on the independence issue by a rather nice majority. 

Now she has the mendacity to pretend she speaks for the whole nation it might go down well with her acolytes who all sit there in her meetings and clap rabidly to every word espoused, but there is a reality she only address's those who agree with her views already. 

Outside in the big wide world I've not heard a word from her about supporting some genuine asylum seekers like the translators who helped our forces in Afghanistan and are now suffering horrendously at the hands of the Taliban. 

How about she stops lecturing the world and actually gets out there for once and does some real hands on dirty work, I know for a fact there are plenty of opportunities to go and do some real good actually physically helping people rather than just sitting online and typing away as though she is some kind of moral expert on every issue under the sun.

How about rather than all these tiresome little charity oh aren't we wonderful gigs and also spending more money on needless bureaucracy and more directors and staff sending Aunty Morags knitted wooly socks to Calais appeals they actually send their money to the real big hitters dealing with the big messes where money does makes a difference the Red Cross, Medecin San Frontiers to name but two. 

What we actually need are less small charities wasting money on offices staff  and more money being sent to those that do use the money wisely and in areas of greatest need. 
That way the maximum amount of money goes to those that need it most.

How helping the people who can't afford the pay expensive people traffickers to ship them halfway across the world but are so poor they are stuck in the midst of all the atrocities unable to escape with no options but just stay within those countries and suffer untold inhumanties. 

No let's focus on the ones who choose to make themselves nationless by paying thousands to criminals, destroying their passports and papers and then turning up in another country expecting us to take them in. 

Remember here we are not discussing the genuine asylum seekers who automatically get resettled under UN charters we are discussing those who deliberately flout the rules to try and get round the systems.

All Squidges ideas do are excerbate an already escalating problem by encouraging more people to try running the gauntlet of criminal gangs who aim to exploit those trying to gain access to Europe.

The tide will not be turned until those in these countries realise that problems aren't solved by running away from them but by standing up and actually doing something to stop the problems.

 Squidge talks of boot on the ground in Syria but there have not been any major military incursions into that theatre, yes they Bomb strategic targets and may occasionally send in small units of special forces to remove military leaders but that is to stem the progress of Isis not to interfere in the Syrian conflict which is a civil war.

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## golach

Have to say hear hear, Better Together, I am with you all the way.

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## squidge

Ahhh lol Better Together, you know me so well. Lol. You know I won't let you get away with personal attacks without responding lol. 

Honey, you know nothing of what I have seen or not but as you so enjoy making assumptions about me then crack on. You know nothing about where I have been and what I have seen nor whether I am sitting in my armchair, or where I have been or what I have done.  You share your experiences and are right to do so and should be proud of your service. I salute you and respect your experience. 

Of course you would not want to see such pictures if you have seen these things first hand.

But -I believe you are wrong. If your experiences have hardened you to believe that these people should be left to die then you are wrong. 

If your experiences have made you think it's ok to close your door and turn your back on people - that it's ok for Britain to ignore her international obligations to provide support for refugees then you are wrong. 

Once again, you persist in saying that my comments mean we should open the door to everyone wherever and in whatever situation. You are wrong. 

Your representation of this as an immigration issue is I, along with many others believe wrong. This is a refugee crisis. That we leave people to be at the mercy of traffickers, that there is no process whereby the EU has put in place a system of assessing these people when they arrive in Europe, before they even get to our Border is wrong. 

You say I set myself up to "speak for the whole nation" you are wrong and you know that lol. I REPEATEDLY make it clear that I speak for no one but myself. 

We must never turn our back on the worlds desperate people. 

You call me sanctimonious and pious, you throw around liberal and western as though they are insults  but you know what I would rather wake up every morning and do what I can, I would rather have "tea parties" (as if lol), I would rather have you mock me and slag me off that go to bed thinking that I could have done something and didn't. Even if all I can do is challenge you, face your wrath, post an alternative view so someone else THINKS about these issues. It is clear you despise me and my views and hold everything I say in utter contempt. So be it.  I don't care AT ALL about your opinion of me.  I fundamentally disagree with your point of view and I have an ABSOLUTE right to do so, I have an absolute right to believe something different for you and to think you are wrong. That's not pious, it's not sanctimonious and it's not moralistic. It is just different from yours and you are no more right than I am.  And you know what? I'm not the only one that thinks your view is wrong- guess what? There are LOADS of us with different views from you on a whole range of options. 

When I had nothing, when all I had was the clothes I stood up in and I had to start all over again with my kids with nothing, people helped me, with plates, towels, knives and forks, food - I didn't even have the money for toilet rolls and yet so many people helped me. You close the door Better Together -  I will NEVER stop trying to help people. Ever.  With small things or big things. In a little way or in a massive way - whatever I can do, I will do. If that makes me a soft touch, if sometimes people take advantage of that then so be it. 

Britain should fulfil its international obligations to these refugees. If we don't then we are no better than those despots you were involved in toppling and I'm sure that's not what any of us want Britain to be.

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## BetterTogether

Just curious as to what country you'd of been living in when you found yourself with nothing but the clothes on your back and had to start all over again. 

Would of of been 

A/ Great Britain with a full suite of social policies that ensure that a mother with children do not spend a night out in the cold facing the elements and have money to feed and clothe themselves.

Or 

B/ A third world country where you really do have nothing or no one to rely on and your next mouthful of food isn't guaranteed.

It very much sounds to me like you've experienced nothing more than a wee bump in life's journey and want to for shame compare yourself to some of the worlds most impoverished people living in third world countries.

I get it I truly do you think you've had it hard but do tell if I'm wrong because I challenge you to give me an example where your life even remotely compared to those people who know what starvation really means, where simple illness can mean death and nothing in life is guaranteed. 

You claim I despise you but to be truly honest that would require some kind of emotional investment in you which I truly do not have. 
Having seen you I can honestly say starvation is not something you suffer with or may be even remotely familiar with.

I doubt you understand real grinding poverty in its truest sense.

You speak of all immigrants as though they are all asylum seekers not a mixture of those genuinely seeking repression and those seeking fulfilling a better life in a westernised society or economic migrants, this weakens your argument as you fail to see the wood for the trees.

Yes we should fulfil our international obligations but not if they are being abused which currently is frequently the case. Quoting the figures for this country is easy how about dealing with the 800,000 dealt with by Germany and the rest of the EU the numbers are more than just a few asylum seekers and your constantly trying to demonise anyone with a differing view is insulting at best. 

Please do regale us all with your life experiences of war zones or third world countries so we can sit back and more fully understand your life journey through the torturous big wide world but if it's just a little bit of hard ship in this country you should feel nothing but shame for even trying to compare yourself to those poor people.

You always claim to speak for only yourself but so frequently use " we " I become unsure who you do speak for is it yourself or maybe a whole host of people inhabiting the same cranial space.

Meanwhile carry on looking at your pictures and wringing your hands wanting to give everything to everyone without a single pragmatic thought for those whose areas you'd inflict these masses of people upon or can we safely pass your address on to a suitable organisation so you can rehome some of these people you wish to help so much.


They always say charity begins at home so why not make it your home and lead by example

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## EyeCarntSpell

I'm with Squidge on this one. Dear god people think of the children !!

I mean these people have left a country seeking help, many have paid thousands of pounds to people traffickers that they could have used at home to make a better life, to get to the land of free money, sorry I mean Britian. After all the wars in Libya and Syria are all our fault. We started them. No doubt the parks at Calais are full of qualified workers here to make Britian a better place and enrich us with their rich culture that we can add to our multicultural melting pot. Only the other night I said to my colleague "See that guy there breaking into that truck ??, yeah him with the scabby jeans and addidas track suit top, thats the latest cardo thorasic surgeon for Harley Street that". It warms my heart it really does to see that many qualified locksmiths taking the time to check the padlocks on those trucks before making their way to Britian to ply their trade, wave flags at the Last Night of the Proms, and mix with the native citizens of their adopted country. I am sure they are just dying to rock up and start paying tax and sending money back home to the missus and kids they left behind in their war torn unsafe hellhole countries that are in the state they are in because of us. 

Squidge is right. I mean what type of country would we be if we just didnt let them all in, put them up in free hotels with three squares a day and £35 a week to live on. In this land of Ambrosia and Honey our streets are paved with gold. money is no option, and its not like there are no pensioners, veterans or homeless poor that could use that from a caring Government. No, we must honour our "internatiional obligations" to these cultural goldmines and not fingerprint them because they are all gay men being persecuted at home who have no paperwork at all. These dedicated individuals must be admitted at once, its not like you could draw a line between Syria and Britian and every country along that line is free of conflict and therefore safe for them. No, we Brits must welcome them in with open arms. I am sure Squidge and her mates would be happy to put a few up on the sofa, I did read today that a British female student has been gang raped at Calais but I am sure its nothing to worry about. After all we must be respectful of their different cultural beliefs where women are just objects to be sexually abused by you and your mates. In fairness to their beliefs we cant really call it rape either, maybe surprise sex would be a better term ??, anyway I am sure its all been made up. Everyone knows those dusky chaps of a certain religion that are packing Calais out are nothing but respectful to the fairer sex. Its not like the abuse of 1400 children in Britian by afore mentioned types goes on and has been largely ignored, after all the media are more concerned with pursuing one senile old white guy and every 70's Radio DJ in existence for being kiddy fiddlers first. 

I thank the lord that we have people like Squidge in this world. People who can watch a news report fed to them by a biased media of a dead child on a foreign beach and conclude its all our fault and that we must do something. The people responsible for putting them in unsafe boats are blameless, as are the Libyan Coast Guard who have one job. Guarding their coast. Which apparently they cant. Apparently its all our fault though that they cannot seem to stop the flow of people taking Mediterranean cruises that are clearly sub par. Reminds me .. must write to ABTA about that. As Squidge pointed out we must honour our obligations and to that end we must send the Royal Navy to give them a lift and do the people traffickers jobs for them. Then we can arrange for Squidge and her Facebook mates to go to Calais and bask in the warmth and joy of these grateful and happy faced arrivals to Britian's cultural melting pot. No doubt soon we will be overrun with surgeons, architects and financial gurus. Just see how they react to finally being safe, fed and warm when the Germans took them in, see the warmth and friendly disposition of these additions to the greatness of Britian .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FPUtamjVXA .. Bless, thank god for people like Squidge desperate to help these grateful warm hearted friendly people. 

Squidge has changed my mind. I spent two years flying with the UN in Africa and Afghanistan. The things I saw in that time had convinced me these places were backward third world dumps populated by the detrius of humanity who have the morals of a dung beetle. Actually thats a bit harsh, the beetles dont deserve that as they are designed to live in their own filth. And the same UN lecturing us now is the same one that is utterly ineffective at everything it does. Except waste money and employ pompous gits with the most teneous of grips on reality.

So I say thank god for Squidge. By the way have you thought of a career with the UN ??

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## davth

Stop housing and paying benefits to these migrants, they rush will soon subside to some other soft touch of a nation.

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## Fulmar

I agree with you Squidge, absolutely. I also believe in helping people and spend my life trying to do just that and unlike you, I will hold up my hand and say that I come from the kind of background that Better Together evidently despises. But you know what, I grew up with parents who also believed in helping people, who regularly took people into our home and gave them house room for periods of time- and needless to say, we were never robbed or murdered in our beds. For the record, I am a regular contributor to Medicins Sans Frontiere and other overseas aid charities such as UNICEF. I have signed up to the campaign to grant asylum to the Afghan interpreters and I am directly supporting those who are aiding the Calais migrants and I support causes at home. So yes, within my tiny and limited means, I do what I can.
I live my life according to my Christian beliefs (which have also been rubbished on here) and the essence of that is to love your neighbour as yourself and in case you have forgotten who your neighbour is, then read the parable of the Good Samaritan. It may be a pattern of living that you despise and think weak but for me, it is the only way and the whole point is that you try to put the needs of others ahead of your own or, more likely, at least have those needs constantly in your mind so that you can make some little bit of difference for the good. As you say, there are many ways that you can do this and how dare you despise the fund-raising efforts that go on and that cost a great deal of effort to do. Have you ever tried knitting socks? Shame on you. As Squidge says, dont go to bed leaving undone some way in which you know you could have helped someone. It is not the worst way that you can lead your life.
In all countries, (including our own), it is the poor and disadvantaged who bear the brunt of what is inflicted upon them by those in power who are always immensely more powerful and more ruthless than they are. So this is where I cannot agree with you because it is those people who are fleeing and dying- the father, the mother, the husband, the wife, the children, the old- people who, like you and I are just asking for a chance to live, to work , to send their kids to school and not to be terrorised or killed for doing so. It is not these people who are responsible for the civil wars and the tribal strife and the chaos but they are the ones who are suffering- and suffering horrendously.
Further, if you go back into history (and actually, you dont have to go back very far) then what you discover is wave upon wave of immigration to these shores. We were all immigrants once and many of us might be surprised to discover from whom we are descended. Also, the best scientific analysis (of mitochondrial DNA) finds that we are all descended from an ancestral Eve and guess where she came from- Africa! (And for the record, there are not a whole heap of ancestral Adams either- and those that there are were certainly was not European). You may say that this is irrelevant but I do not think so. For me, it is a humbling thought and shows, (if we actually needed the evidence) how interconnected we all are.
No one is saying that we can take everyone in but we can take some- and regulations could be attached, such as attaching an initial time limit. Way back, someone wrote that some could come up to the far north- well, why not? They do not all have to be settled in overcrowded cities in the south do they? Meantime, as I think that we may all be able to agree, we have to work hard to try and improve the situation in the countries of origin- it is in our own self interest to do so.
There are no easy solutions, there are no cheap solutions and there are no perfect solutions. But there remains trying and whether we like it or not, the refugee/migrant crisis is not going to go away so really, there is no other way.

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## davth

Political asylum is one thing.
Migrant workers is another.

Hiding yourself and 78 of your countrymen in the back of an HGV and sneaking in the country is quite different altogether.
There are proper methods to gaining asylum, the above method is not one of them.

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## BetterTogether

Here's a quick link to a video that shows what happens when some of these impoverished starving refugees are offered Red Cross aid to help them survive.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BM68nGs8PEo

 I also watched a report tonight showing how they are using Facebook to direct each other on best routes to use and people to avoid to get into Europe funny how so many of them have very nice Samsung mobiles.

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## EyeCarntSpell

> Here's a quick link to a video that shows what happens when some of these impoverished starving refugees are offered Red Cross aid to help them survive.
> 
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BM68nGs8PEo
> 
>  I also watched a report tonight showing how they are using Facebook to direct each other on best routes to use and people to avoid to get into Europe funny how so many of them have very nice Samsung mobiles.


Not even the half of it that, look at how they react to a french woman who tries to feed them with halal food .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbTSdUdQeLY .. from French TV with subtitles.

No good deed goes unpunished by these lovely people.

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## davth

> Not even the half of it that, look at how they react to a french woman who tries to feed them with halal food .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbTSdUdQeLY .. from French TV with subtitles.
> 
> No good deed goes unpunished by these lovely people.


I seen that one last night, disgusting behaviour.
And not just the odd one or 2 either.
A navy ship back to point of departure is what we should be doing.

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## squidge

Our response to the current refugee crisis suggests we feel fearful and threatened by the mass movement of desperate people; fearful not just of sharing what we have but also of the sense of disorganisation and chaos. Does the fact that these refugees are from Syria, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan, and so not part of our continent, provide an excuse to allow them to be bombed at home or drowned during their desperate journey to safety?http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...ampaign=buffer

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## davth

squidge

How do you suggest we pay for all these people to claim benefits, healthcare, schooling and housing etc?

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## squidge

And so lets summarise for folk lol

One view - the UK should be taking its international role responsibly and working with the rest of the EU to take action to humanely deal with these refugees. We should take a share of those people arriving in Europe who are fleeing violence persecution and war. We should do what we can to prevent these things happening  and to deal effectively and compassionately with those arriving in Europe because to do nothing is inhuman. 

The other view - everyone arriving in Europe is a criminal, dangerous and a threat to our security and should be left to die, in their boats or in trucks - even if They are 6 month old babies. No one who hasn't fought in a war zone or lived in Africa should have any sort of opinion on this issue or dare to express compassion or empathy and should absolutely NOT suggest that we are wrong. Your stupid internet pictures and videos are Just lies and nothing, but here look at this you tube video which proves I'm right. ( and let's not forget my personal favourite folks) in any case You should have no opinion because you are a FAT woman.

The use of language in this debate is important, immigration rather than refugee crisis, economic migrants rather than people means that we can disassociate ourselves from respnsibility and ignore that these are people. Well these people are refugees - they are mothers, children, father, brothers, sisters and babies and many of them are dying in an attempt to run away from whatever intolerable situation they live in. It's not really much more difficult than that.  if you think that's ok then I will disagree with you because for me it's not.

Davth you miss my point so I will say it again. 

At no point in this conversation have I said Britain should open her borders and let everyone in. I have said ( repeatedly) that What I want is for Britain to step up to her international responsibilities to work,with the rest of Europe to deal with this refugee crisis. Perhaps in some of the ways that the Germans have suggested In a previous post where I shared their plan. As a European response then support would be properly funded on a European level - not just in this country or the EU but supporting those countries like Turkey and Greece to cope with the MILLIONS of refugees they are experiencing. We would have to take our share of people of course but that would be a coordinated and measured response - planned for and delivered in an organised manner which helps to prevent the dreadful tradgedies we have seen this week.

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## squidge

> Political asylum is one thing.Migrant workers is another.Hiding yourself and 78 of your countrymen in the back of an HGV and sneaking in the country is quite different altogether.There are proper methods to gaining asylum, the above method is not one of them.


There are no safe and legal routes for refugees to gain entry to Europe, Davth, and certainly not to Britain. Refugees are not political asylum seekers nor are they migrant workers. They are people running away.  Visa restrictions are still in place for countries like Syria pretty much everywhere except Germany and the lack of family reunion programmes, where refugees who already have family living in a country are given leave to stay, and other methods where people fleeing war zones can gain lawful entry don't exist. If they don't take an inflatable across the Med or jump in the back of a lorry then they can't get in.

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## cptdodger

> There are no safe and legal routes for refugees to gain entry to Europe, Davth, and certainly not to Britain. Refugees are not political asylum seekers nor are they migrant workers. They are people running away.  Visa restrictions are still in place for countries like Syria pretty much everywhere except Germany and the lack of family reunion programmes, where refugees who already have family living in a country are given leave to stay, and other methods where people fleeing war zones can gain lawful entry don't exist. If they don't take an inflatable across the Med or jump in the back of a lorry then they can't get in.


All we have heard from you Squidge, is how are _we_ going to help these people, how are _we_ going to help these people what are _we_ going to do about these people. Well, if you had bothered to watch the two links posted, you would see what happens when people go out their way to help these people. What is the first thing you learn as a parent? It is (hopefully) you protect your children no matter what, you do not take them on suicide missions.

_"At no point in this conversation have I said Britain should open her borders and let everyone in."_

So what to do then is nip over to Calais and choose the ones you want, you know a bit like when you go to the dog pound to choose a pet. According to you all these people are fleeing war zones, so which ones are more deserving than others to gain entry to Britain? 

_"And so lets summarise for folk lol"

_Do'nt speak to people like they are five years old, just because we do not agree with your opinion does not make us wrong.

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## davth

> There are no safe and legal routes for refugees to gain entry to Europe, Davth, and certainly not to Britain. Refugees are not political asylum seekers nor are they migrant workers. They are people running away.  Visa restrictions are still in place for countries like Syria pretty much everywhere except Germany and the lack of family reunion programmes, where refugees who already have family living in a country are given leave to stay, and other methods where people fleeing war zones can gain lawful entry don't exist. If they don't take an inflatable across the Med or jump in the back of a lorry then they can't get in.


As you may have gathered I am no expert on this matter.
Can you please spell out to me in laymans terns what the UK's legal responsibility is with regard to these people who are crossing the med?
It was my understanding that a refugee should claim asylum in the first safe country he / she find themselves in, so in crossing the Med this will not be the UK.
Also, if they are so poor then how can they afford to pay the human traffickers, I understood it that many paid thousands to get passage to Europe.

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## squidge

> All we have heard from you Squidge, is how are _we_ going to help these people, how are _we_ going to help these people what are _we_ going to do about these people. Well, if you had bothered to watch the two links posted, you would see what happens when people go out their way to help these people. What is the first thing you learn as a parent? It is (hopefully) you protect your children no matter what, you do not take them on suicide missions._"At no point in this conversation have I said Britain should open her borders and let everyone in."_So what to do then is nip over to Calais and choose the ones you want, you know a bit like when you go to the dog pound to choose a pet. According to you all these people are fleeing war zones, so which ones are more deserving than others to gain entry to Britain? _"And so lets summarise for folk lol"_Do'nt speak to people like they are five years old, just because we do not agree with your opinion does not make us wrong.


That's ok cpt. You can do nothing if you like - that's your choice. There are other videos by the way of refugees demonstrating how grateful they are, crying with relief, thanking people for their help but that wouldn't suit I guess. 
I'm certainly not getting pulled into a pointless YouTube battle. 

You are absolutely right - you don't take your children on suicide missions  - unless you face the threat of death at home when the chance might be worth taking and it's the only route out of your situation open to you. Oh and no.... You don't"nip across to Calais" you work with other governments to have a sensible managed approach to dealing with a refugee crisis throughout Europe taking a share of people from internationally agreed criteria - she says again!!!!!

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## BetterTogether

It's all very well saying we should take in refugees from war zones but let's be quite honest here. 

Afghanistan has been having major issues with the Taliban for decades this isn't a new issue.

Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Syria are in the midst of civil/religious wars. 

Eritrea is not a new situation either. 

What is relatively new is the mass migration of millions of people leaving these areas and heading for Europe. 

No one is denying that people are dying en-route to Europe and yes some of those are children just as much as the vast majority are adults.
But the difference here is the videos posted on these links show the behaviour of some of these people. 

Rioting within the safe areas provided for them not because they are being ill treated poorly fed and not provided sanctuary but because they dislike each other and are bringing some of the issues they are claiming to want to escape. 

Throwing food away because it's past a best before date no other reason but these are the same people some on these threads claim are starving, I for one have never seen a person who is genuinely starving turn down food of any type. 

We've also had people trying to throw a wee bit of hardship in a westenised society and compare that to the hardships endured in third world countries laughable in its deluded mendacity also showing a total lack of first hand knowledge of these situations.

Or foist some religious view that it's our duty to help everyone.

The best way we can help all of these people is to help them return their countries to normality.

It wasn't so long ago that Europe went through to major wars which killed tens of millions and displaced countless amounts of people. 
We have successfully managed to regain some balance within our societies but it should always be remembered that peace is hard fought for and easily thrown away. 
We have some who say we should help these people and let them in feed them but no mention is made of what happens once stability returns to their countries, is it not fair that they should be returned home or are we expected to just say well that's it you're here now stay here forever.
No mention is made of the cultural turmoil which is bought to these shores by mass immigration.
The wars being fought in the Middle East are based on religious factions fighting each other and tribes for want of a better word fighting each other. 
In this country we are already seeing unease at certain religious groups which decades ago where minorities now demanding that this country changes to accommodate their desires on law and cultural issues, they are not integrating they are now trying to mandate. 
These changes have happened within my life a mere few decades how much longer before these groups become large enough to force change and this country is no longer the tolerant liberal society we currently enjoy. 

Immigration has never been an issue and the whole nation to some extent has been founded and immigration but never before has such mass immigration changed the country so quickly. 
This problem isn't just affecting GB but the whole of Europe with all European countries now waking up to realise the scale of the problem.
 Germany for one has 800,000 in one year. The UK has over 8 million people not born within these shores and that doesn't count those who are illegal and not on the official radar but the numbers are well into the hundreds of thousands if not more. Consider the population of this nation is 65 million in real terms that means that we already have over 10% of the population as immigrants. 
Where do we draw the line as this is already the most densely populated country in Europe and not the largest of Islands. 

When do we accept that our services are having a strain put on them which is sucking more and more resources. 

It's easy for those like Squidge to berate genuine concerns and say keep letting them in don't be wicked don't be callous don't be hard but those who show concerns for their country their pensioners their children, their sick,impoverished have valid concerns. 

On one hand we have the constant litany of posts about food banks, people's benefits being sanctioned, austerity, not enough money to do anything with then in one swift gasp of breath let's open the doors to more and more.

These are the politics of complete fantasy where we ignore basic facts like costs and cultural issues created.  On one hand nothing is affordable on the other everything is affordable. 

The dichotomy of logical thinking is almost laughable if the issues weren't so serious. 
The same people over and over berate us to be everything to everyone and cry hysterically when any light is shone on the eloquently written by decidedly illogical premises behind their arguments. 
Any criticism is swiftly denigrated into some personal slight when the realities are if you want to debate then you'll find others vehemently and fundamentally disagree with you. 

If you wish to cast aspersions around then it's no good sniffling when a harsh light is shone on your own deluded hypocrisy.

We see lots of warbling on about how we should aid all the refugees but not one of what I'd call our vociferous liberals are prepared to deal with the real thorny issue. How do we bring peace to their counties so there doesn't have to be mass immigration. 

It's all about cause and effect.

Those one here waffle on about dealing with the effects but are quite happy to leave to causes because then life gets uncomfortable and liberal sensibilities are unable or unwilling to deal with those very uncomfortable decisions. 

Let's keep dealing with millions of immigrants and allow those countries to keep slaughtering people, raping, torturing and doing all manner of unmentionable things but let's just not talk about that because it's not an easy conversation.

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## davth

what exactly are our legal obligations then?

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## cptdodger

> That's ok cpt. You can do nothing if you like - that's your choice. There are other videos by the way of refugees demonstrating how grateful they are, crying with relief, thanking people for their help but that wouldn't suit I guess. 
> I'm certainly not getting pulled into a pointless YouTube battle. 
> 
> You are absolutely right - you don't take your children on suicide missions  - unless you face the threat of death at home when the chance might be worth taking and it's the only route out of your situation open to you. Oh and no.... You don't"nip across to Calais" you work with other governments to have a sensible managed approach to dealing with a refugee crisis throughout Europe taking a share of people from internationally agreed criteria - _she says again!!!!_!


Again, I am not five years old. 


_"That's ok cpt. You can do nothing if you like - that's your choice"

_My choice is to look after the children I brought into this world, they are my priority, I also prioritize a safe country for them to live in.You are so quick to judge and belittle other people for doing nothing, exactly what have you done ?

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## squidge

How am I belittling you or judging you personally? I respond to your posts on here and know nothing about you just like you know nothing about me. I keep simply stating my point of view and you seem not to get it so I Say it again and again and again. If you think that is me treating you like a five year old you are wrong, it is me treating you like an adult who either hasn't read what I have posted, misunderstands it or wilfully misinterprets it. I say it, again so that you have another chance to either read it, you have the opportunity to ask again if you don't understand it or you look petty and childish. As I have no way of knowing why you still try to make out I am saying something that I am not, then I don't really have any other option. 


As I have already said It's your choice to do nothing about this, not to care and not to see it as a priority. But I am entitled to think you are wrong to think that BRITAIN should do nothing and I am entitled to disagree with you. To tell you what I am doing would mean telling you who I am and I'm not particularly comfortable with doing that just now.

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## davth

Squidge, can you answer my query please?

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## squidge

Yes Davth I will, when I have a minute to give you a proper response with references and accurate information. I am in the process of drafting a reply but it will take longer than the space I have whilst waiting for the chocolate to melt for dinner tonight - my lads are coming so I'm doing something nice. Ink all honesty it will be later today.

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## davth

> Yes Davth I will, when I have a minute to give you a proper response with references and accurate information. I am in the process of drafting a reply but it will take longer than the space I have whilst waiting for the chocolate to melt for dinner tonight - my lads are coming so I'm doing something nice. Ink all honesty it will be later today.


chocolate for dinner???
calorietastic

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## squidge

Well im a fat lady Davth, what would you expect me to eat? its chocolate mousse for dessert lol. My eldest lad is just back from weeks in Angola  :Smile:

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## cptdodger

> How am I belittling you or judging you personally? I respond to your posts on here and know nothing about you just like you know nothing about me. I keep simply stating my point of view and you seem not to get it so I Say it again and again and again. If you think that is me treating you like a five year old you are wrong, it is me treating you like an adult who either hasn't read what I have posted, misunderstands it or wilfully misinterprets it. I say it, again so that you have another chance to either read it, you have the opportunity to ask again if you don't understand it or you look petty and childish. As I have no way of knowing why you still try to make out I am saying something that I am not, then I don't really have any other option. 
> 
> 
> As I have already said It's your choice to do nothing about this, not to care and not to see it as a priority. But I am entitled to think you are wrong to think that BRITAIN should do nothing and I am entitled to disagree with you. To tell you what I am doing would mean telling you who I am and I'm not particularly comfortable with doing that just now.


No, what you are actually doing is repeating yourself over and over again in the vain hope people like me who choose to take responsibility for my own children first, will change our minds and agree with you. You try your best to belittle and judge me because I put my children before anybody else. That's fine, but I will say this if I lived in such a war torn god awful place, my first priority would not be to bring more children into that environment.

I can't count the times you asked us what we were going to do, but when I ask you - _"To tell you what I am doing would mean telling you who I am and I'm not particularly comfortable with doing that just now"_ Is that the best you can come up with ?


Not that this will bother you because these are British people that this is affecting - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34095190

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## squidge

> You try your best to belittle and judge me because I put my children before anybody else. That's fine, but I will say this if I lived in such a war torn god awful place, my first priority would not be to bring more children into that environment.I can't count the times you asked us what we were going to do, but when I ask you - _"To tell you what I am doing would mean telling you who I am and I'm not particularly comfortable with doing that just now"_ Is that the best you can come up with ?


Maybe you can point out exactly where I belittled you and judged you for putting your children first? The "we" I have referred to throughout this thread is the collective "we" of Britain, Scotland, or society. It's not you and me skipping off to Calais, with a sleeping bag to show solidarity. 

And yes, that is the best I can do. If I set out my actions and what I am doing people will know who I am. I would rather not put up information which allows people to identify me and find my address without any control over that. If you want to send me a PM introducing yourself and telling me what you want to know I'll happily introduce myself right back and tell you what I'm busy being up to and explain why I am being so careful

Oh.... And PS - if we took action, proper robust action on an EU wide basis, putting proper systems in place, dealing with this crisis then those British Lorry drivers would be safer, under less pressure and far, far, far more secure.  Oh, and that "we" is the British Government. Just in case you thought I was speaking about you......

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## squidge

Right Davth The law on refugees is governed by international treaties. The UN convention relating to the status of  refugees from 1951 is the main one and there is the 1967 protocol and others but these don't set the law in every country. This treaty sets out clear rights that refugees have  and the international obligations but each country is able to set its own laws. So in Britain, then it's the immigration act which sets out the limitations on those people coming into this country. 

If we take Syria for example, in Britain and in other EU countries, Syrians need a visa. So without a visa they cannot enter Britain. That is the "legal route" - someone without a visa cannot get into Britain and would be turned away and so currently, the only way into Europe, Britain is inside a lorry, in the crawl space of an aeroplane, in a wee inflatable dinghy or other ways. People who leave their homes and their lives behind putting themselves and their children at risk is not done because they somehow care less about their children, or because they don't prioritise them in the same way as "we" do but because they are desperate, fear death is near anyway, and believe it is their only chance to get away from a dreadful situation.

I have mentioned Germany quite a bit on this thread. Germany is the only country in Europe which has suspended its visa requirements for Syrians which means that Syrians can enter Germany legally, it means that they have rights to stay in Germany and not be returned to Syria. Britain has not recognised Syrians as refugees in law. It suits many of the commentators to lump all these people together as "migrants" because it avoids the acknowledge that that they have these rights. Setting up safe routes for refugees is about suspending visa requirements and assessing people properly on arrival in the EU and sharing out the burden of supporting these desperate people.

The failure of Britain and the EU to act on this crisis makes everything worse for everyone. Cpt linked to the lorry driver so let's talk about him for a moment. If the EU set up proper reception areas for refugees, if all EU countries worked together to decide in a compassionate and humane way how to process these people then they would be allocated to various countries, supported properly when they arrived and would be less likely to end up desperate at places like Calais. If there were reuniting family programmes where someone turning up in a boat, had relatives or friends in Britain then they could be sent to Britain. Same with Germany or France. Britain currently has no such programmes for refugees. This means that people end up at Calais, desperate to get across the channel to be with people who are already here and cannot get here by legal means. So the poor lorry driver bears the brunt of the failure of Britain and the rest of the EU to address this crisis. 

That's it really Davth. Addressing this crisis, preventing the deaths of hundreds of desperate people by acknowledging there IS a crisis is the best way to begin to resolve it. It is not about letting anyone walk into Britain or the EU, it's about meeting our international obligations under the treaties mentioned at the start, to protect and uphold the rights of refugees who are truly  the world's most desperate people.

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## BetterTogether

Lots of hyperbole about how " we " should do something still no answers over cause and effect.

I'd still like to know how Squidge intends to deal with the cause of these problems to stop the effect ! 

No doubt an overwhelming silence will ensue as there is no desire to actually get to grips with the harsh bitter realities of today's world just more wall papering over ever increasing cracks.

Let's for once hear how Squidge intends to deal with the problems throughout the Middle East, Afghanistan, Eritrea, Nigeria and a whole plethora of other nations who aren't particularly savoury.

Any idiot can dole out food, clothing, accommodation and money to immigrants but it doesn't deal with the root cause of the problem and in itself just creates a larger problem as anyone with an I.Q above 1 would be able to tell you.

Free anything will always have a queue !

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## BetterTogether

> Right Davth The law on refugees is governed by international treaties. The UN convention relating to the status of  refugees from 1951 is the main one and there is the 1967 protocol and others but these don't set the law in every country. This treaty sets out clear rights that refugees have  and the international obligations but each country is able to set its own laws. So in Britain, then it's the immigration act which sets out the limitations on those people coming into this country. If we take Syria for example, in Britain and in other EU countries, Syrians need a visa. So without a visa they cannot enter Britain. That is the "legal route" - someone without a visa cannot get into Britain and would be turned away and so currently, the only way into Europe, Britain is inside a lorry, in the crawl space of an aeroplane, in a wee inflatable dinghy or other ways. People who leave their homes and their lives behind putting themselves and their children at risk is not done because they somehow care less about their children, or because they don't prioritise them in the same way as "we" do but because they are desperate, fear death is near anyway, and believe it is their only chance to get away from a dreadful situation.I have mentioned Germany quite a bit on this thread. Germany is the only country in Europe which has suspended its visa requirements for Syrians which means that Syrians can enter Germany legally, it means that they have rights to stay in Germany and not be returned to Syria. Britain has not recognised Syrians as refugees in law. It suits many of the commentators to lump all these people together as "migrants" because it avoids the acknowledge that that they have these rights. Setting up safe routes for refugees is about suspending visa requirements and assessing people properly on arrival in the EU and sharing out the burden of supporting these desperate people.The failure of Britain and the EU to act on this crisis makes everything worse for everyone. Cpt linked to the lorry driver so let's talk about him for a moment. If the EU set up proper reception areas for refugees, if all EU countries worked together to decide in a compassionate and humane way how to process these people then they would be allocated to various countries, supported properly when they arrived and would be less likely to end up desperate at places like Calais. If there were reuniting family programmes where someone turning up in a boat, had relatives or friends in Britain then they could be sent to Britain. Same with Germany or France. Britain currently has no such programmes for refugees. This means that people end up at Calais, desperate to get across the channel to be with people who are already here and cannot get here by legal means. So the poor lorry driver bears the brunt of the failure of Britain and the rest of the EU to address this crisis. That's it really Davth. Addressing this crisis, preventing the deaths of hundreds of desperate people by acknowledging there IS a crisis is the best way to begin to resolve it. It is not about letting anyone walk into Britain or the EU, it's about meeting our international obligations under the treaties mentioned at the start, to protect and uphold the rights of refugees who are truly  the world's most desperate people.


So in reality it's a situation the UN should be dealing with as they have done in many other countries it's part of their remit so why haven't the UN stepped in to take control of the situation in these countries.Nope instead the buck is passed on to individual countries and then advantage taken of the schengen area.If you are genuinely fleeing repression then any country will do not transitting right across Europe to enter the UK.This is where Squidges argument falls down and becomes more hysterical rambling quoting rules which do not apply. Count the number of migrants transitting through, Italy, Spain, Greece, Macedonia , Serbia , Germany, Hungary, Turkey but not stopping there as someone fleeing an oppressive regime would do, no they have to continue to cross further countries to get even close to the United Kingdom so all this piffle about fleeing oppressing isn't what it appears to be when held up to scrutiny but cold calculated cynical economic migration to pursue a nice westernised way of life.

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## squidge

Tum te Tum 

Squidge can't deal with these issues or resolve the causes - what she can do, what others are doing is call upon the people who CAN and are elected, paid, to do exactly that to get on and do it. Squidge can offer a different point of view from that being expressed by other posters here, Squidge can also personally do small things to ease the suffering of a few individuals, she can stand up for people, she can be part of a wider movement that demands action, challenges perceptions and encourages people to think wider than the pages of the tabloids. 

But even if that's all Squidge can do, it's still better than nothing, it's still better than closing her door, shutting her eyes, sticking her figures in her ears and shouting "I can't hear you knocking" which is what we (Britain) appear to be doing right now. Because if we ( society) just do that then NOTHING changes.... Ever.

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## BetterTogether

> Tum te Tum Squidge can't deal with these issues or resolve the causes - what she can do, what others are doing is call upon the people who CAN and are elected, paid, to do exactly that to get on and do it. Squidge can offer a different point of view from that being expressed by other posters here, Squidge can also personally do small things to ease the suffering of a few individuals, she can stand up for people, she can be part of a wider movement that demands action, challenges perceptions and encourages people to think wider than the pages of the tabloids. But even if that's all Squidge can do, it's still better than nothing, it's still better than closing her door, shutting her eyes, sticking her figures in her ears and shouting "I can't hear you knocking" which is what we (Britain) appear to be doing right now. Because if we ( society) just do that then NOTHING changes.... Ever.


You seem to be very adept at telling us how society should deal with this problem which is a political problem why shy away from proffering a reasoned articulate well thought out idea on how the cause could be dealt with. You don't seem to shy away from being highly opinionated on every other issue under the sun which are political decision which you claim to have no power over why stop short now. As for society not changing I'm not sure which highly insular bubble you live in but I notice society changing rapidly maybe it's not going quite how you imagine it should, perchance on this issue like others the majority tend to disagree with you but society most definitely is not standing still or doing nothing.

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## squidge

Davth This article takes about the laws and some of the issues around refugees today and how they have 
Changed. 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-eu...ortress-europe

I didn't say society wasn't changing I said that if we as a society and actually as individuals do nothing, then nothing changes. I know you like to think I know everything BT, but honest I don't. I can't remember how many times I have said, repeatedly on many many subjects that I have no answers, that I don't know what the answers are. That's why we elect governments BT. I don't think we (Britain) should be doing nothing. I gave talked about some of the things that I think and others think we (British Government) COULD be doing, and that I would like to see us (Britain) doing, but I don't have the answers honey and I think you know that I know that too.

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## BetterTogether

Interesting article there Squidge but I'd dearly love to know who is forcing these people to use traffickers as far as I can tell everything they do is a choice no one Forces them as stated in the article to do anything. Interesting to note how each of your posts totally ignores the reality of economic migrants of which there are many should we treat them the same ?

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## squidge

I don't think I have said that we should. Economic migrants are not refugees and should not be treated as refugees. However, refugees are not economic migrants and are currently being treated as such! It is worth mentioning though that we can't be surprised that there are economic migrants when much of the world is still so poor. 

Traffickers prey on desperate people and are very good at it. People traffickers are the worst criminals. They prey on people's fears and charge them for their hopes, with lies and deception. They take the money saved by people and they promise them a better life. Often abandoning them to a terrible fate as we have seen this week with 70 dead people in the back of a truck. Its a trick as old as can be.Fear forces people to use whatever route they have, it is the most powerful motivator. A lack of safe routes forces people to take their chances where they can. This is all well documented.  traffickers, however seem to flourish when governments fail to do their jobs. Failing to deal with the refugee crisis means failing to deal with the traffickers too. It is reported that whenever there is a lack of safe routes then traffickers are left to fill the vacuum.

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## BetterTogether

Can you explain how you'd separate the genuine asylum seekers from the economic migrants.

I mean obviously the ability to pay people traffickers and posses nice mobile phones and pick and choose what you eat isn't a very good way to tell them apart.

I'm not sure that piling people into the back of a track is a trick as old as can be considered refrigerated trucks in fact all trucks are modern machines .
People trafficking is a relatively modern phenomenon.

Before these halcyon days of modern European culture it would be more appropriate to call what used to occur slavery which as we both know still occurs within modern Europe and elsewhere and is probably the more abhorrent trade.

But people trafficking as we are now witnessing is a modern occurrence unless you are able to provide me with historical references to it.
As we know most people in these countries posses ID cards of some sort passports or some form of identification how do you explain so many of them having no form of identification what so ever.
Traffickers also prey on people full of hope for a new life in a prosperous well off country nothing to do with fear. 

So explain how do you differentiate between these groups and how do you explain his relatively sudden mass exodus from countries which previously haven't seen the requirement to move en masse. Instability has been rife in parts of Africa for centuries now and the Middle East has historically been riven by tribal, religious and ethnic conflicts not much has changed.

Maybe you'd like to give us some insight into your first hand experience with the tribal infighting or religious fractions that are driving these regions into their current conditions. 
Perhaps you've have prior experience within the Balkan enclaves and the ethnic cleansing the occurred there or maybe some experience of Saddams Regime prior to its toppling.
 I mean you speak with such authority on the issues that drive these people to seek a new life surely you must of visited at least one of these regions to gain the first hand experience to speak so widely about letting these culturally vastly different people into our country with some of the issues that may well be created by doing this.

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## davth

So surely if a Syrian needs a visa to enter UK and does not have one then there is no problem with us not accepting them?
Im not sure it is a case of "lalalala we cant hear you knocking", its more a case of "we can hear you knocking but you are not welcome, now go away"

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## BetterTogether

The other day there was a report of some Bangladeshis picked up trying to get into the country, see it's very easy to say give asylum seekers from war zones asylum but when we have a situation where people from multiple countries are trying to force their way into the country by any means possible it becomes an issue.

 We aren't dealing with a situation where people are showing with some form of identification for the greater part somewhat mysteriously all their papers seemed to have vanished so it's difficult to define where they actually originate from, effectively they have made themselves Nationless. 
To those of an easier heart it appear that they are all poor desperate people fleeing war torn nations with nothing but the clothes on their backs, but to those of use somewhat more cynically inclined it seems like a mass of people deliberately destroying documents and telling the same tried and tested stories to gain access to European countries by any means possible.

Terry Waite was on TV this morning saying how he believes we are now in a Third World War, not like previous wars but one where terrorists can strike at will anywhere anytime.
 If we are to believe what we are told it is people Dayesh and Al Shabab and their like who are profiteering from people trafficking and funnelling people uptoward our borders. 
Not only does this take them in huge profits but creates a humanitarian crisis for countries to deal with. 
But there is also another consideration to take into account, mixed into those tens of thousands of immigrants how many terrorists are making the journey hidden amongst them only biding their time to join up with others to wreak havoc and destruction on our citizens.
It's very easy to have an open heart and let everyone in and feel that those of us who wish to hold back and be more cautious are callous and hard hearted, but when the next inevitable terrorist atrocity is perpetrated somewhere in Europe will those who urge us to open our doors stand up and admit how wrong they've been. 
It was only last week an atrocity was averted on a train by a handful of brave men standing up to an armed terrorist.

Are the Squidges and Fulmars of this world happy to appease their conscience at the cost of innocent lives within our own country. 

How many people have to die before they accept there are genuine fears from the government and security services about letting so many people in unchecked.

No doubt their will be shouts of panic mongering from them and raising fears but these fears are real it's across Europe we see these atrocities occurring with more frequency. 

The Wolf is at the door but they fail to see it snarling.

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## Fulmar

Unfortunately, I feel that you, Better Together, are the one who is constantly full of negativity and fear and maybe your experiences in the armed forces has made you so. But you know, from my reading of the posts on here, you repeatedly do what you accuse others of doing, putting words and meanings into the words of Squidge (and myself) that were not intended and belittling people who do not hold the same view as yourself and others. No wonder that not many post with the treatment that they receive on here- basically being hammered. For all you know, there may be many who take an opposing view to yourself just as I accept that there will be many cheering you on who also are not posting. Poor Squidge who, in your eyes, cannot have an opinion unless having first hand experience of every war zone and desperate situation throughout the globe and solutions to same and is judged to be 'opinionated'. Of course, you are not opinionated are you?
''Are the Squidges and Fulmars of this world happy to appease their conscience at the cost of innocent lives within our own country. ''
Please point out where I said this in any of my postings as I certainly cannot find a record of it and no, I believe, as you do in robust anti-terrorism measures and keeping people safe, whoever they happen to be. (A wee reminder as an aside; the 2007 atrocities (the worst the UK has seen), were not carried out by 'migrants' so far as I recall.
Also, please tell me where I tried to foist my Christian beliefs on you or anyone else. I told you what the source of my motivation is, pure and simple. I know perfectly well that you hold those beliefs in contempt as you made it totally clear before when you spoke about 'Bronze Age' religions.
So please, for the sake of everybody, just stop and be a little more considered and considerate.
You can shout as loud as you like on here and think that having the last word means that you have somehow 'won' but the Politics section and this thread was meant to be a place of debate for folk of all different views. Since it is no longer that and continual wrangling on here is utterly pointless, then you rock on, as the saying goes.

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## davth

One of the 2007 Glasgow International Airport bombers was an immigrant.
I think the Lockerbie bombing of 1988 surpassed the London 2007 attack did it not?

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## squidge

I expect our governments to be able to do both. 

To be able to keep us safe and deal with the terrorist threats whilst also being able to meet their international obligations to provide a safe place for those fleeing persecution - refugees. I don't ask or expect them to do it all by themselves. I expect them to work proactively with the rest of the EU to make sure of both these things. 

I don't know the answers but then I am not a member of the Government. I am a voter, and I expect those who are elected to our government to do the best for people, nationally, internationally, as the Government of the UK and a member of the EU. 

Being one thing does not automatically prevent you doing another, so

It's possible to care about refugees and demand action without believing we should have free movement of everyone everywhere. 

It's possible to care about your own family and still have compassion left over for others, for the families of those that wash up on beaches after yet another refugee crisis.

It's possible to speak up for refugees and demand action and yet care about the poor, pensioners, the sick and disabled here in Britain too. 

It does appear that Britain, France and Germany are actually going to talk together to try to do something about that even if it is going to take 2 weeks to do this and even if they have tried before and failed. (Maybe they have been reading this board today lol.) I am glad that Britain is, finally, taking its place in resolving this crisis. That is what I have been hoping for and it's the very least that I expect of our government.

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## davth

But If as you stated, we have no legal obligation to take these Syrians without a visa, why should we take them?
I dont see the role of the Government the same as you, I think that the Government should look after the UK's best interests, period.
Obviously taking in thousands of illegal immigrants is not in the best interests of the UK or its citizens.

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## squidge

These Syrians without visas are refugees though Davth. We (Britain) have an international obligation to provide support for refugees. Looking after the UKs best interests includes meeting international obligations too, it is in the best interests of the UK surely to take its place in resolving international affairs. After all, if we (Britain) don't do that then we will become an irrelevance and our lorry drivers will still suffer, people will still die, and those sneaking into Britain to do harm will still sneak in because they will be able to hide themselves amongst the desperate more easily than if we were working with others to ensure that those people who need help get it.

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## BetterTogether

> Unfortunately, I feel that you, Better Together, are the one who is constantly full of negativity and fear and maybe your experiences in the armed forces has made you so. But you know, from my reading of the posts on here, you repeatedly do what you accuse others of doing, putting words and meanings into the words of Squidge (and myself) that were not intended and belittling people who do not hold the same view as yourself and others. No wonder that not many post with the treatment that they receive on here- basically being hammered. For all you know, there may be many who take an opposing view to yourself just as I accept that there will be many cheering you on who also are not posting. Poor Squidge who, in your eyes, cannot have an opinion unless having first hand experience of every war zone and desperate situation throughout the globe and solutions to same and is judged to be 'opinionated'. Of course, you are not opinionated are you?''Are the Squidges and Fulmars of this world happy to appease their conscience at the cost of innocent lives within our own country. ''Please point out where I said this in any of my postings as I certainly cannot find a record of it and no, I believe, as you do in robust anti-terrorism measures and keeping people safe, whoever they happen to be. (A wee reminder as an aside; the 2007 atrocities (the worst the UK has seen), were not carried out by 'migrants' so far as I recall.Also, please tell me where I tried to foist my Christian beliefs on you or anyone else. I told you what the source of my motivation is, pure and simple. I know perfectly well that you hold those beliefs in contempt as you made it totally clear before when you spoke about 'Bronze Age' religions.So please, for the sake of everybody, just stop and be a little more considered and considerate.You can shout as loud as you like on here and think that having the last word means that you have somehow 'won' but the Politics section and this thread was meant to be a place of debate for folk of all different views. Since it is no longer that and continual wrangling on here is utterly pointless, then you rock on, as the saying goes.


Just to put you straight, Three of the bombers were British-born sons of Pakistani immigrants; Lindsay was a convert born in Jamaica.

So that's point one dealt with.

The abrahmaic religions have created more wars more death more suffering over the centuries than any lives they have saved infact you can lay part of the blame for today's problems in the Middle East at the door of Christianity and those oh so wonderful crusades undertaken in the name of Christianity.

If you don't want your religious beliefs challenged then don't throw them out there and use them in the debate you mention them so therefor you put them into the arena. The church May well,be important to you personally but across the nation attendance to churches is plummeting people have for quite some time stopped believing. 

That's just the world we live in, I'm not going to complain about it especially as more and more priests are hauled up for child molestation, and people across the globe in various countries are punished for not following the tenets of religion.

Trying to enter a debate on immigration without knowing a single thing about the ethnicities, religions and motivations behind those trying to enter this country may seem jolly clever and appease certain sensibilities but it does very little for the good of this country. 

Mewling like a bairn about robust political debate what do you expect everyone to agree with you and applaud your actions when quite a large percentage of the population vehemently disagree with your position. 
I don't expect everyone on the org to agree with me and will always robustly debate the issues which I feel strongly about.
 Those that disagree are fully capable of voicing their opinions and frequently do so, many prefer to just read and watch the debate unfold, but crying about it and trying to make capital out the fact that you're unable to swing everyone to your point of view throwing a little tantrum throwing your toys out of the pram, make a big fuss about leaving the discussion then returning shows more about yourself than I.

I'm not sure why you both feel the need to play the hard done by card everytime your points get hammered as you call it. 

That's politics for you !

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## squidge

If the bombers were British born then they werent migrants surely?

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## BetterTogether

> These Syrians without visas are refugees though Davth. We (Britain) have an international obligation to provide support for refugees. Looking after the UKs best interests includes meeting international obligations too, it is in the best interests of the UK surely to take its place in resolving international affairs. After all, if we (Britain) don't do that then we will become an irrelevance and our lorry drivers will still suffer, people will still die, and those sneaking into Britain to do harm will still sneak in because they will be able to hide themselves amongst the desperate more easily than if we were working with others to ensure that those people who need help get it.


Considering your well documented views on wishing for Independence how can we believe that anything you say is for the best interests of Great Britian, you've made it quite clear that you want nothing more than the dissolution of the Union. Surely your interest in Britian is to break it up not to see it strong and fulfilling international obligations. Seems you're trying to pull the same horse in two different directions.

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## BetterTogether

> If the bombers were British born then they werent migrants surely?


Is Jamaica, Britian or do we need to brush up on geography a wee bit !

If you also notice I was quite clear two where British born sons of Pakistani Immigrants.

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## davth

> These Syrians without visas are refugees though Davth. We (Britain) have an international obligation to provide support for refugees. Looking after the UKs best interests includes meeting international obligations too, it is in the best interests of the UK surely to take its place in resolving international affairs. After all, if we (Britain) don't do that then we will become an irrelevance and our lorry drivers will still suffer, people will still die, and those sneaking into Britain to do harm will still sneak in because they will be able to hide themselves amongst the desperate more easily than if we were working with others to ensure that those people who need help get it.


Are refugees not supposed to claim refugee status in the first safe country they find themselves in?

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## squidge

Not necessarily Davth, there are situations where that rule doesn't apply - if you google Dublin regulations or protocol you will find a whole range of information about it. As an example, for refugees entering via Greece then moving on to France before requesting asylum would not be returned to Greece because they cannot cope and are struggling. The point is though that refugees should not have to apply for asylum, they should be given it automatically because they should be internationally recognised as refugees and should be allocated to a specific country depending on whether they have links to a specific country or not.




> Considering your well documented views on wishing for Independence how can we believe that anything you say is for the best interests of Great Britian, you've made it quite clear that you want nothing more than the dissolution of the Union. Surely your interest in Britian is to break it up not to see it strong and fulfilling international obligations. Seems you're trying to pull the same horse in two different directions.


BT we ( yes voters) did not achieve independence. I recognise that and as such understand that we (those of us that support Independence) need to work within the system that we (the UK) have, as part of the UK. I still want an independent Scotland but I know that will not happen anytime soon. I have,  as you so often demand that we(those of us who campaigned for independence) should do... Got over it and moved on. You might like to try it yourself. 

You actually initially said three were British born and one came to the UK when he was five. So three out of the four were British and not migrants. I'm not sure what the point of this is other than one out of the four was a migrant.  In fact out of all the terrorist attacks since the Irish peace process, where convictions have taken place something like 20 of the perpetrators were British and 6 were born elsewhere.

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## davth

why do you discount the troubles?

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## squidge

Because I didn't have all night and it was a natural cut off.

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## EyeCarntSpell

Having spoken to an arab colleague last night. Asked why largely Muslim people are trying to to get to the coldest wettest and most remote part of Europe instead of a nice warm empty and wealthy Muslim country just on the doorstep. 

The points he made .. 

They dont want them.
No papers here, no entry. Trying to illegally enter will get a you a solid booting. Often much worse.
We are all fools.
They REALLY dont want them here.
We are fools who stopped the Nazi's from crossing the channel 75 years ago. Now we cannot stop a "skinny" in a track suit top from doing it.
We are soft touches who will look after whoever is thrown our way, after all we let in thousands from Sangatte on the grounds the French would be allow no further camps. Well that worked didnt it ??
We are going to be a Muslim country in 100 years by allowing in uncontrolled numbers.
We are all fools who are giving away our culture.
He also mentioned the word "Hirja" in a certain context. Oh dear.

He thinks he is clever. He is in for the check ride from hell next week ..  ::

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## squidge

It's not true to say that refugees are not going to Muslim countries. 

UN figures show nearly 2 million in Turkey, 1.2 million in Lebanon, 600 000 in Jordan, 250 000 in Iraq and 133 000 in Egypt. The highest number in Europe is 105 000 in Germany although that will rise given their humanitarians stand. Sweden has around 40 000, Austria 18 000, UK 187. Doesn't QUITE seem like they are all heading here does it? In fact only around 5% of Syrian refugees are in Europe 

This reflects the point that I have been making that this is an international refugee crisis and it requires an international response. One additional point is that part of that response must be to also support Countries like Turkey and Greece to deal with the numbers they have.

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## BetterTogether

Let's throw our cards on the table the bombers where the Sons of Pakinstani immigrants that's one generation that failed to accept and integrate into out society.

As we see we those who also skip merrily on their way to join Dayesh who happen to also be the offspring of immigrants sometimes 2nd or 3rd generation.
This is the reality of the situation multiculturalism is a wonderfully failed social experiment. Those who are attacking our country or leaving to go fight have placed their religion " Islam " above the country the where born in. 

Many surveys show that up to 20% of Muslims within the borders of this nation have sympathies for Dayesh.

Let us not dwell on the Muslim Council for Great Britain a self appointed non democratic organisation that has already sought to have Sharia law implemented. 

We also have the situation of Sharia Courts already operating within areas out of sight and unaccountable.

Let's ignore the vast cultural differences which have led to thousands of innocent yet vulnerable girls being abused by Asian men because those who should of been there to protect them failed in their duty of care because they feared being labelled " racist" or those who are a vanished abroad against their will to be forced into marriages they do not consent to let alone the " honour " killings.

All these problems aren't a question of we the native indigenous people of these island or the previous waves of immigrants being intolerant or " racist " these are problems created purely by these groups of people utterly and totally failing to integrate into our society.
Yet despite all these numerous problems we have people wanting to bring further tens of thousands into this country without vetting them despite the security problems the issues of where to house them in a country already short of housing. 
There comes a time when common sense decrees that the country has a sufficiently large population and has suffered already from a political experiment that has allowed immigrants to flood into the country already and changed some of our cities beyond recognition.

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## davth

> Because I didn't have all night and it was a natural cut off.


Only a natural cut off to serve your argument.
But I feel we digress a bit.

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## davth

I would support them by sending out masses of bricklayers to build some decent walls for them, with a gun post or 2.

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## cptdodger

My daughter was four years old when she started school in Walthamstow, East London. She was in a class of 33. Of that 33, there was five (what you would class on a form) white British. The day she started she brought home a six page letter, for one paragraph, the rest of the pages covered every language and dialect you can imagine stating that, if she was found to be racist, she would be expelled. The school did not celebrate Easter but I got a card she had made, with Happy Eid written on it. By five years old, she could count from one to ten in urdu. The parents, generally mothers that came to collect their children from school could not, or would not speak a word of English, if I was in a shop, their children had to translate for them.

We then moved to Gravesend in Kent, where the school my daughter then attended was primarily white British, my daughter started to have constant headaches, after ruling out her eyesight being the problem, she was sent to hospital to check for a brain tumor. I can't tell you what we went through, thankfully it was not a brain tumor, it was found that because she had learned very little at her first school because the teacher had to concentrate on the children whose first language was not British, my daughter was struggling with the lessons at the new school, she needed remedial help to catch up, she was six.

My daughter started school in Wathamstow in *1987*. The way things are going, there are going to be large areas of Britain where the white British are going to be in the minority, how is this fair to our children and grandchildren?

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## davth

I am not sure there is much relevance to the term White British, if you are British born you are just as much British as any other, regardless of color, creed or race.

However your point on the schooling is interesting, I have read reports that many areas of England, the schools are at breaking point with the number of new entrants to the schools which cannot speak a word of English and are "very traumatised" souls who need a great deal of time and effort spent on them.
Whilst this is a crying shame on the new school pupils, it is to the expense of the British born students education.

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## cptdodger

> I am not sure there is much relevance to the term White British, if you are British born you are just as much British as any other, regardless of color, creed or race.


They may very well be termed as British, but the point still stands, if those British families cannot speak a word of English, then it has a detrimental effect on (as you say) British born children.

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## davth

> They may very well be termed as British, but the point still stands, if those British families cannot speak a word of English, then it has a detrimental effect on (as you say) British born children.


There are some families on the western isles that do not speak English, far and far between now right enough.
And most of them would string you up if you called them British.
I dare say there will be a few in Wales also.

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## BetterTogether

Although education is a totally different subject I believe that English should be taught as the first language in all Schools except obviously language Schools which are generally for older students.
Across the world English is now considered the language of international commerce and is taught widely as a second language. 
I am of the belief that gaining citizenship of this country should include mandatory English lessons and there is no reason for people to refuse to learn or claim special dispensations under some cultural reasons if they wish to reside in this country long term.
I am also of the belief that asylum should be given to those escaping persecution but should not be an automatic lifetime right as when the situation in which ever country people have fled from changes there may well be a good reason to repatriate them. 
Recently a case was brought before the courts of a woman who had escaped Ghana and was married to some high ranking official prior to the political unsettlement in that country. Some years down the line she has been taken to court for claiming benefits to the sum of some £120,000 when she has been spending 3 months of the year playing golf in Ghana. 
This may be an exception but it serves well to highlight how the systems put in place to help people are frequently abused. Once countries return to normality there is no reason for people not to return to them. Asylum should be granted as a means for refuge not as a means to resettle indefinitely that goes along with the offspring of those born here not being granted automatic british citizenship.

I'm sure many who have travelled down through the nation and are of an age to remember will of been amazed at how many of our larger cities have culturally changed beyond recognition, I know it's frequently used as a cliched joke but Bradford could easily be used as a prime example. 

My better halfs parents frequently make reference to how parts of Glasgow are now culturally changed beyond recognition most major cities would shock those who have rarely if ever ventured south of Inverness.

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## BetterTogether

> There are some families on the western isles that do not speak English, far and far between now right enough.And most of them would string you up if you called them British.I dare say there will be a few in Wales also.


North Wales used to be quite an awkward place to visit sometimes but over the last couple of decades the pockets of purely Welsh speakers has diminished and it's generally quite a friendly place to visit. Funnily enough they've stopped burning cottages as well !

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## davth

indeed but you get my point, right?

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## cptdodger

> There are some families on the western isles that do not speak English, far and far between now right enough.
> And most of them would string you up if you called them British.
> I dare say there will be a few in Wales also.


There is a fair few people in the rest of Scotland as well would string me up far calling them British ! Unfortunately for them, if they were born in England, Northern Ireland, Wales or Scotland, the fact is, they are British whether they like it or not. As for schools that just speak Gaelic or Welsh, I would imagine they are specialist schools, as in there would have to be English speaking schools you could send your children to surely?

To be honest, just speaking Gaelic or Welsh, I think would be quite isolating for a child, especially as you point out, millions of people across the world speak it as a first or second language. I know the Dutch for example teach English from Primary One. 

As for benefit cheats, just watch any programme that deals with this issue. We are talking hundreds upon hundreds of thousands a year.

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## BetterTogether

There will always be a handful of people in any society who wish to consider themselves different to everyone else and fall back to some historic standpoint that suits their ideology.
Widely speaking the whole of the UK is English speaking no doubt even those on the western isles who prefer to speak Gaelic will suddenly find the ability to speak English when confronted by having to deal with the wider world.
No doubt it's much to their chagrin and they immediately return to Gaelic when hanging over the garden fence blethering about how unfair it all is, but we should also bear in mind our current Holyrood Govt obsession with putting up Gaelic signs everywhere that only 1% speak Gaelic and most of them don't do it on a daily basis.

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## davth

> There is a fair few people in the rest of Scotland as well would string me up far calling them British ! Unfortunately for them, if they were born in England, Northern Ireland, Wales or Scotland, the fact is, they are British whether they like it or not. As for schools that just speak Gaelic or Welsh, I would imagine they are specialist schools, as in there would have to be English speaking schools you could send your children to surely?
> 
> To be honest, just speaking Gaelic or Welsh, I think would be quite isolating for a child, especially as you point out, millions of people across the world speak it as a first or second language. I know the Dutch for example teach English from Primary One. 
> 
> As for benefit cheats, just watch any programme that deals with this issue. We are talking hundreds upon hundreds of thousands a year.


I dont think there will be a school in the UK that English isnt the language used, apart from language classes of course, and if there is then its a disgrace.
The point was more about the older generation that dont speak a word of English.
Gaelic as a language is all but dead, it should be left to RIP IMHO, it serves no purpose in the modern world.

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## BetterTogether

> I dont think there will be a school in the UK that English isnt the language used, apart from language classes of course, and if there is then its a disgrace.The point was more about the older generation that dont speak a word of English.


There are attempts being made within the Scottish Education system to change that and make Scottish the primary language although there seems to be some confusion over regional dialects and actual language.

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## BetterTogether

I think this shows the exact moment Scotrail gave up on Gaelic

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## davth

Scottish???
Is this a new cybernat language??
Any mention of England must be followed with a clearing of the throat and gob onto the deck?

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## cptdodger

This is a paragraph from The Scottish Sunday Herald, September 2014 -


"THE rapid expansion of Gaelic school education is providing a major challenge, Scotland's largest local authority has warned.

     Glasgow City Council said there were insufficient teachers and support  staff to deliver growth - while officials warned funding issues remain  concerning. 
     As a result, the council warns it would be foolhardy for the Scottish  Government to pass legislation to force councils to meet future demand  for Gaelic Medium Education (GME)."

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## BetterTogether

Interesting to hear on the news the problems that the Schengen Agreement is bringing to those European members within it now immigration is such a big issue. Maybe free movement between countries without any border controls wasn't such a good idea after all.

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## davth

Perhaps it's time to rap the EU

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## BetterTogether

> Perhaps it's time to rap the EU


I think it's slowly disintegrating anyway, it was never anything more that political ideology and the euro at some stage will pull the countries apart it's come pretty close already with the Greece Euro debacle still not really settled and now they are having the problem of immigrants landing on their shores with no real help from the rest of Europe, seems at the moment the people of Greece are suffering the brunt of politicians dreams of an ideal world.

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## squidge

So let's see, migrants economic or refugees, Gaelic speakers, Welsh people, Pakistanis, benefit claimants, speakers of some imaginary language called Scottish, all of these people are what? Threats, undeserving of any resources? Shouldn't be allowed, supported, encouraged, enabled to learn their language, have a distinct culture? Be in any way different? This reads like you think the only worthwhile culture, is white British, English speaking culture. Is that what you are saying?

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## cptdodger

> So let's see, migrants economic or refugees, Gaelic speakers, Welsh people, Pakistanis, benefit claimants, speakers of some imaginary language called Scottish, all of these people are what? Threats, undeserving of any resources? Shouldn't be allowed, supported, encouraged, enabled to learn their language, have a distinct culture? Be in any way different? This reads like you think the only worthwhile culture, is white British, English speaking culture. Is that what you are saying?


Nope, all I did was point out how the situation affected my daughter when she started school in 1987. Take from that what you will, twist it to suit your own agenda, as you probably will. But I can't change what happened to my daughter.

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## BetterTogether

> So let's see, migrants economic or refugees, Gaelic speakers, Welsh people, Pakistanis, benefit claimants, speakers of some imaginary language called Scottish, all of these people are what? Threats, undeserving of any resources? Shouldn't be allowed, supported, encouraged, enabled to learn their language, have a distinct culture? Be in any way different? This reads like you think the only worthwhile culture, is white British, English speaking culture. Is that what you are saying?


Not at all Squidge a conversation sometimes evolves and goes down little side routes because it can that requires some flexible thinking occasionally. 
But maybe you can explain why £25 million has been spent on Gaelic Road signs when less than 1% of the population actually speaks Gaelic. 
Yes I know it's a separate conversation and I'm pretty sure there's a thread on it somewhere.
Why are schools proposing to teach Scottish over English which is the language of the whole Nation not just a dialect, I mean you can't have it all ways do we speak English or Scottish and if the latters the case why Gaelic signs everywhere not Scottish ones. 
You seem to forget or ignore that white British is the indigenous people of this Island maybe youre quite happy that in certain parts of the Nation the are now a very distinct minority, it's not rascist wanting to preserve some kind of cultural identity and distinction but what is unacceptable is the virtual cultural genocide that has been enforced on these Islands without any mandate from the people.
Do tell me why this Nation should keep taking more and more immigrants of any type,what it appears you wish to achieve is the annihilation of anything culturally distinct or British if you prefer to call it. 
Yes we know all about the referendum and you claim to have moved on but there is a harsh reality your views will probably not have changed so your heart felt desire to dissolve the Union will remain as strong as ever and from your apparent hand wringing desire to allow droves of immigrants  into the country it would appear you've no desire to try and preserve some kind of cultural identity. 

What will happen to Scottish identity when it's subsumed the way many British cities have been, will it just vanish as well to be cast aside into some quaint long forgotten bygone age when once there where people called Scottish. It's take. Less than 40 yrs to change London a city of 8 Million. How long will it take to change Scotland forever with a population of only 5 million. What was the SNP figure during the referendum 20% that's 1 in 5. Not long I'd say before you have a cultureless wasteland of people with no ties to anything their whole culture washed away but some multi cultural daydream.

It seems from where I stand your desire is to wash away in some great tidal wave anything British and replace it with some multi cultural amalgam as long as it isn't British. 
Maybe the country has some you some great disservice in the past for which you feel the unfettered desire to dissolve every ounce of identity that makes this nation what it is.
From where I stand it appears you are once again out of step with what the vast majority of people within this nation want, which is a reversal of our very lax immigration policies and border controls put back in place.
Maybe it's not very acceptable to speak about it in the meetings you go to and is frowned upon maybe you're used to just listening to a certain faction of people who knows what your reasons are but it very much seems once again your voicing your opinions but are out of step. 
No one is censuring you or trying to remove your right to quote international laws but there's another reality they can be rewritten when not fit for purpose.
The world is currently seeing the largest mass migration of people ever and all you can say is to quote Paul Macartney " open the doors and let em in "

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## squidge

> Nope, all I did was point out how the situation affected my daughter when she started school in 1987. Take from that what you will, twist it to suit your own agenda, as you probably will. But I can't change what happened to my daughter.


It's not always ALL about YOU cpt. I don't have everyone else on ignore you know. (Even though they might wish I had) There were a number of posters and a number of posts and I never mentioned your daughter or her education.  If I was asking you specifically then I would put your name in the post just like I did with this one. When I say "we" I am not always talking about you and me and when I say "you" I'm not always talking about cptdodger.

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## BetterTogether

Must be the Royal " we " then

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## cptdodger

> It's not always ALL about YOU cpt. I don't have everyone else on ignore you know. (Even though they might wish I had) There were a number of posters and a number of posts and I never mentioned your daughter or her education.  If I was asking you specifically then I would put your name in the post just like I did with this one. When I say "we" I am not always talking about you and me and when I say "you" I'm not always talking about cptdodger.


And I was just answering in general, since it was my post that got the rest of "us" talking about different languages. And I am also well aware it is not always about ME, as you take great delight in insulting, belittleling and laughing at everybody and anybody that disagrees with your views.

In future I will refrain from replying to any of your posts.

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## squidge

Good!

All education in Scottish Schools should be in Scottish lol BT - that's the dialect, the Scottish accent that most people growing up here speaks with. If you are saying that there is a plan to educate children entirely in the Scots language then, again, you are wrong. Children already however, are taught about Scots and about Gaelic. Gaelic and Scots a the languages that made Scotland - Gaelic was the language of Scotland for years and Scots was the language of the Scottish Court and the law. It is right that we should promote, encourage and enjoy these languages as not simply a historical dead language like Latin, but a language that lives in the people here, Scots is still spoken in many places and there are many who are born with Gaelic and who want to learn Gaelic. These languages are part of Britain along with Welsh and Cornish, why would we see them as somehow "outside". 

Children should learn about the languages of the land they live in. They should be taught the literature and music of  place. Your comments by Glasgow council are a bit misleading too. The Scottish Government wants to ensure that where parents request Gaelic Medium Education then the local authority has a duty to consider whether this can be done. There is no plan to force Gaelic medium education on either parents or local authorities. You are right to say there is a shortage of teachers and that is recognised. 

You seem to think that I hate all things British. This is a typical response from you BT. If you are for one thing you must be against another. Being a supporter of Independence does not mean I hate Britain. I am British and English but unlike you I'm not threatened by anything remotely different. I don't see supporting Gaelic and Welsh as somehow undermining "white British" culture, nor do I think British children born to immigrants are a threat to our security or again, our culture. Indeed those languages, those children are part of our British Culture and should be enjoyed as such. You however seem to think that NOTHING has value unless it is in English, that no one has value unless they are born here ( and even then some have more value than others). 

You are absolutely right I would see Britain take its share of refugees, you however seem to be happy to watch them die. I will never agree with you on any of these issues and I'm glad glad glad glad glad.

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## BetterTogether

I do wonder what plant you've landed from sometimes. 

Let's get a few things straight until James III Scotland didn't have a court as such.

 Dependent on which part of what is now know as Scotland you may or may not have spoken Gaelic but that is very much down to which part you lived in.

Now if you're talking about the Royal Court it started off as Gaelic then changed to French then to what would commonly be known as English.
There is no and never has been a distinct language of Scottish. 
So there we put an end to your buffoonery of the highest order. 
Now if you wish to teach history I suggest you find another career. 
You claim Latin is a dead language but it underpins the very essence of most of what you say, write and read so much for your educational halo, seems it's slipping somewhat. 
Let's call it common English for ease is the language which is whether you like it or not the length and breadth of this country and globally.
It is the main language of the USA , Australia, New Zealand a large part of Canada, it is the second language of Europe and the language of commerce globally.
So you can put whatever super whizzy isn't a wonderful happy clappy idea you like in place but it should not disadvantage the children of Scotland which is what will happen when you try playing with their education.
Gaelic or Welsh can be learnt as a second language but should not be put over or in place of that which the Child will need day in day out to be able to work and succeed in the modern world. 
I'm sorry you're so offended the language is called English I'm not sure what else to call it by its obvious by the way you spit out the word it offends you. 
What you seem to want To achieve is teach the language of some long forgotten partly mythical land and I respectfully suggest you brush up on your historical knowledge of Scotland rather than whatever fairy stories you've been reading. You seem to think children should only be taught the music and literature of their own country I find that a sad indictment of a poor education surely children should be given to the widest possible introduction to the arts not some ill thought out narrowly defined reference to that which may be geographically defined as Scottish.
Once again you seem to miss the point of being British it's the ability to celebrate or unique local customs and dialects but join together as a whole nation.
I find your attitudes toward education regressive and patronising to the point of ill informed. 
You're very good at twisting things but I can quite happily celebrate all the unique parts of this nation revel in some of the customs, accents but not feel the need to throw it all into turmoil, much as you will warble on about your views on independence and how you've accepted the result the realities of the issue are you're still out there still doing meetings still banging your drum so id call your assertion regarding your views on being British as a mere smoke screen to hide your real political agenda in clear English I'd call it Poppycock.
How can you love Britain but seek to destroy it, the diametric assertion of your arguments require one to be able to do mental gymnastics. 

As for your last bit I'd say it's you that by encouraging immigrants to undertake the journey that is wanting them to die I'd rather see them safe and secure in their own countries. The very action of encouraging them to undertake then journey is what puts them at risk. So do stop trying to paint yourself as some kind of humanitarian martyr it's quite apparent you care for very little except your political ideology.


Meanwhile fences are being erected around Europe and it's looking more and more like border controls will be reintroduced.

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## squidge

And yet again you adopt the all or nothing approach to everything. 

Wanting children to learn the language music of where they live, of their history of their next door neighbour is not to the exclusion of everything else in the world. You would nt want them to learn it at all. 

So according to you BT i hate English even though I am English, I hate Britain even though I am British, I only have one goal to seek the destruction of Britain and I have the TEMERITY to think that the democratic process should be available to those people who seek an independent Scotland. According to you people should not have the opportunity to learn Gaelic or Welsh as a language of the place they live, a language their parents speak and a language that may be the language of their neighbours but should be taught other languages. They should learn about the history and the music of the world but not the Gaelic, Welsh  or Scottish history of the place they live, not the Gaelic or Welsh music which might be sung at home! Again you seem to think kids that are taught Gaelic are not taught English. In your narrow black and white posts once again support for one thing means hatred for something else. 

Your posts are becoming more bizarre by the minute. I don't really think this conversation is worth continuing BT. You might think I come from another planet but I have utterly NO idea where you are coming from at all.

And whilst some countries are putting up fences thank god some are trying to do stuff to alleviate suffering and prevent the deaths of thousands.

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## BetterTogether

I suggest they learn the language at School which will help them most in 

a. The country they live in 
B. For the future they aspire to. 

But minority languages aren't really of much use out in the big wide world yes no doubt I will get jumped all over by a handful of diehards in the western isles but I can live with that. 

Maybe you're comprehension of English isn't as good as it might be, I've not said an all or nothing approach to anything that's your somewhat limited interpretation and once again attempt to gain victim hood.

 You twist and turn and always attempt to make it about yourself when you fail to get your somewhat tired limited views across.

 Like I've already said your viewpoint is sadly quite limited and regressive more suited to a third world dictatorship than a large fully westernised democracy, you constantly wish to impose your views on the majority even though it's quite apparent you hold a minority view. 
That dear Squidge is dictatorial.

See you've tried twisting everything again I've said children deserve a broad education across literature music and the arts not the geographically limited ideological view you hold what an utterly patronising load of old drivel.
It doesn't take a huge amount of effort to trawl back through your posts on this Org to get a fairly good view on your political ideology. 
You can be English and British that doesn't mean you love your country for two years you rabidly posted on this org about ripping up the Union and how everything was bad so you've hoisted yourself by your own petard my sweet no point trying to do an about turn or deny it.
Your own brush has well and truly tarred you and to deny everything now would really just undermine any political aspirations you may have.

Those who've followed you must be scratching their heads at your sudden wish to embrace Britishness.

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## squidge

I am perfectly settled with my English and British identity - I have never said anything different and I see no conflict between beliving that Scotland - the country I live in should govern itself and being a Lancashire lass living here. I don't understand why you think there is some sort of exclusion but again all or nothing - the world according to BT believe in independence - hate Britain. Sorry BT you are again, wrong. You must be getting used to this by now lol

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## rob murray

[QUOTE=squidge;1128537]Good!

All education in Scottish Schools should be in Scottish lol BT - that's the dialect, the Scottish accent that most people growing up here speaks with. If you are saying that there is a plan to educate children entirely in the Scots language then, again, you are wrong. Children already however, are taught about Scots and about Gaelic. Gaelic and Scots a the languages that made Scotland - Gaelic was the language of Scotland for years and Scots was the language of the Scottish Court and the law. It is right that we should promote, encourage and enjoy these languages as not simply a historical dead language like Latin, but a language that lives in the people here, Scots is still spoken in many places and there are many who are born with Gaelic and who want to learn Gaelic. These languages are part of Britain along with Welsh and Cornish, why would we see them as somehow "outside". 

Squidge what about Doric ?? There is no and never was any generic scots dialect, a langauage in Gaelic yes, but some would argue that the Doric was more than a dialect and a language in its own right. If you know your history you would know that years back you got battered black and blue at school if you spoke doric at school as many would tell you and there are / were thousands who know and use the Doric...just do a bitty o digging roond Aiberdeen

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## davth

Don't forget about Cathness dialect folks
All this talk of Scottish language is laughable, we have English and Gaelic, however English always has been the more widely used.

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## rob murray

> Don't forget about Cathness dialect folks
> All this talk of Scottish language is laughable, we have English and Gaelic, however English always has been the more widely used.


AYe we have regional dialiects and always hev ye ken, an its a beeg laugh to hear fye foulk who ken nowt aboot ae twangs rantin on aboot fit they call ae Scots twang...gie me a break will ye, some foulk on here chirp aweye lek sprougies!!

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## squidge

Rob - are you suggesting that i shouldnt have an opinion on Gaelic and its promotion and teaching or on the Scots language or on minority languages per se? Why are you allowed an opinion, Davth allowed one,  BT allowed one and yet not I? 

Dialects and languages are wonderful things, I love language and words, I think that Gaelic and Welsh and Cornish and Doric and lallands Scots and Scots itself, lancashire Dialect, geordie and all our regional accents are worth protecting and developing so that people own them. I can still spot a caithness dialect in a crowwded room and it always makes me smile. Tthe benefits of being bilingual are well known and as Gaelic and Welsh are languages of the British Isles then people should have the opportunity to learn them. Why not? No one is forcing people that dont want to learn Gaelic to learn Gaelic but as a language of Scotland it should be promoted and cherished - if it isnt then what happened to it in the past - just like what happened to Doric will happen again and I think Britain will be the poorer for it. 

just as an aside - the suggestion that £26 million is being spent on Gaelic road signs needs to be clarified. Here for you guys who have been frothing at the mouth over Gaelic road signs are the facts. 

£26m is in fact roughly £3m more than the entire annual budget for ALL Gaelic-related activities in Scotland under the six-year Gaelic National Plan, including BBC Alba which costs £13 million.  and does a valuable job even for English speakers, broadcasting  lower-league football and minority sports like shinty, even if most  viewers cant follow the commentary).The government body charged with promoting the language, the Bòrd na Gàidhlig, has an annual budget of £5.1 million. Independent research suggests that such investment actually pays for itself in terms of various benefits to the economy.

 Bilingual roadsigns werent instigated by the SNP as part of its dastardly obsession with inculcating seperatism, Gleeber has already pointed ou that they were instigated by the labour/libdem administration in 2003  The Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act, which set out the status of the Gaelic language as an official language of Scotland commanding equal respect to the English language, was passed by the labour/lib dem Government in 2005, and subsequently enthusiastically backed by the tories. 
  Indeed the Tories had a manifesto in 2011 which said they  remain committed to the promotion of the Gaelic language and culture.

 The actual total budget for Gaelic road signs is not £6m but *£2m*, and is actually just the budget for roadsigns generally  Gaelic names will only be added when signs need replacing making the real cost effectively zero. 

I hope this makes things a bit clearer for you - it seems it might be you who know nowt about it after all.

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## rob murray

> Rob - are you suggesting that i shouldnt have an opinion on Gaelic and its promotion and teaching or on the Scots language or on minority languages per se? Why are you allowed an opinion, Davth allowed one,  BT allowed one and yet not I? 
> 
> Dialects and languages are wonderful things, I love language and words, I think that Gaelic and Welsh and Cornish and Doric and lallands Scots and Scots itself, lancashire Dialect, geordie and all our regional accents are worth protecting and developing so that people own them. I can still spot a caithness dialect in a crowwded room and it always makes me smile. Tthe benefits of being bilingual are well known and as Gaelic and Welsh are languages of the British Isles then people should have the opportunity to learn them. Why not? No one is forcing people that dont want to learn Gaelic to learn Gaelic but as a language of Scotland it should be promoted and cherished - if it isnt then what happened to it in the past - just like what happened to Doric will happen again and I think Britain will be the poorer for it. 
> 
> just as an aside - the suggestion that £26 million is being spent on Gaelic road signs needs to be clarified. Here for you guys who have been frothing at the mouth over Gaelic road signs are the facts. 
> 
> £26m is in fact roughly £3m more than the entire annual budget for ALL Gaelic-related activities in Scotland under the six-year Gaelic National Plan, including BBC Alba which costs £13 million.  and does a valuable job even for English speakers, broadcasting  lower-league football and minority sports like shinty, even if most  viewers can’t follow the commentary).The government body charged with promoting the language, the Bòrd na Gàidhlig, has an annual budget of £5.1 million. Independent research suggests that such investment actually pays for itself in terms of various benefits to the economy.
> 
>  Bilingual roadsigns weren’t instigated by the SNP as part of its dastardly obsession with inculcating seperatism, Gleeber has already pointed ou that they were instigated by the labour/libdem administration in 2003  The Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act, which set out “the status of the Gaelic language as an official language of Scotland commanding equal respect to the English language”, was passed by the labour/lib dem Government in 2005, and subsequently enthusiastically backed by the tories. 
> ...


"Rob - are you suggesting that i shouldnt have an opinion on Gaelic and its promotion and teaching or on the Scots language or on minority languages per se? Why are you allowed an opinion, Davth allowed one,  BT allowed one and yet not I?....Whatever made you think that ? You stated your opinion/s as always wheter we respect them or not or agree with them so stop contradicting yourself or could it be you cant stand being proved wrong, as you never once mentioned one of scotlands most alive dialects / "language"...Doric, and I rectified, quite rightly, your obvious ommission ! Why not have Doric road signs and a Doric plan....Gaelic was never ever the language of all Scotland, once again if I may correct you, Gaelic is the traditional language of the Gaels, ie the heartlands of the highlands and some islands. May I suggest its some ( prominent political ) Caithnessians that predominantly froth over Gaelic road signs, Im not that bothered, other than I recognise the stupidty over having gaelic road signs in a traditional non speaking Gaelic area, I mean you may as well have welsh or cornish road signs. BBC ALba, I watch  the football and Bella, great stuff you dont need to know whats being said watch the football and listen to the music, gaelic is incidental to the programmes. Did I even stray into mentioning that........... Bilingual roadsigns weren’t instigated by the SNP as part of its dastardly obsession with inculcating seperatism.....nah....thats you introducing your political agenda and sounding paranoid at that, overall Squidge a 3/10 posting.....do you know fit a sprougie is by the way ?

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## rob murray

[QUOTE=squidge;1128537]Good!

All education in Scottish Schools should be in Scottish lol BT - that's the dialect, the Scottish accent that most people growing up here speaks with. If you are saying that there is a plan to educate children entirely in the Scots language then, again, you are wrong. Children already however, are taught about Scots and about Gaelic. Gaelic and Scots a the languages that made Scotland - Gaelic was the language of Scotland for years and Scots was the language of the Scottish Court and the law.  

Gaelic ceased to be the language of Scotland by 1400, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotti...ic_in_Scotland a very interesting url, what I think you call "Scots" is Inglis...a scottish variation on English, we have predominantly spoken English with regional daliects / variations as scots for over 7 centuries...sorry

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## BetterTogether

Isn't amazing how confused and comfuzzled some become when trying to justify the forcing of a non indigenous language onto an area, whilst I know that in the Caithness and Sutherland region there may well of been small pockets of Gaelic speakers the language was never widely spoken here. 
It doesn't really matter which party forced a ridiculous piece of legislation through or championed it, at the end of the day it remains an absurd waste of taxpayers money and does nothing more than show how some of the political class are completely out of touch with what the vast majority of the populace want and are more interested in listening to small pressure groups.
The same can be said for immigration of course there are people who want to help every man and his dog with every problem they might possibly have during their lives.
Quite a large percentage of the population would rather the government get on with running the country for the benefit of the population. 
Which also includes ensuring that our borders are secure and that immigration is controlled not the tsunami we have witnessed over the last few decades. 
Squidge quite rightly states that a large percentage of the world are a lot worse off than us, but if we allow everyone who thinks they can just enter our society come in then in due course this small island, which is already densely populated will suffer from the same problems as many of those poorer countries.
On one hand we have the constant postings of how the NHS is under strain, how we have food banks, insufficient housing, poverty starvation already within this nation and with a swift draw of breath we are supposed to help everyone who has a desire to enter the country regardless of its impact on the country.
I'm sure these people don't see the astounding lack of joined up thinking it beggars belief that they can't understand that the two problems are interlinked and one goes hand in hand with the other.
Politicians across Europe are struggling to deal with what is effectively a mass exodus with Millions on the move but here we are led to believe just be nice and everything will be ok we've enough cash for everything it grows on a magic money tree somewhere and no one ever has to pay for anything in real life.

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## rob murray

Well....how can you link in non indigenous language with secure borders, impact on unchecked immigration / NHS / foodbacks etc etc and controlled immigration....kinda like linking Kylie Minogue with Led Zeppelin !!!!

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## BetterTogether

Now there's a thorn to deal with if you're born in this Nation you're considered British, but the authorities will quite happily say you're the son of an immigrant or descended from whatever nationality your family comes from. This in itself isn't an issue but currently what we are seeing are a sizeable number of young men and women of 2nd and 3rd Generation immigrant families who are heading off to Syria to fight in a war with Dayesh. It's pointless denying the realities it doesn't make you racist to deal with the harsh realities of the situation what it does serve to do is show that multiculturalism in some areas has failed. The mere fact these people feel so dispossessed by the society they live in is sufficient proof.

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## rob murray

> Now there's a thorn to deal with if you're born in this Nation you're considered British, but the authorities will quite happily say you're the son of an immigrant or descended from whatever nationality your family comes from. This in itself isn't an issue but currently what we are seeing are a sizeable number of young men and women of 2nd and 3rd Generation immigrant families who are heading off to Syria to fight in a war with Dayesh. It's pointless denying the realities it doesn't make you racist to deal with the harsh realities of the situation what it does serve to do is show that multiculturalism in some areas has failed. The mere fact these people feel so dispossessed by the society they live in is sufficient proof.


Im not calling you a rascist just couldnt see how you could link the points you made, but you make good points in your last post

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## BetterTogether

> Well....how can you link in non indigenous language with secure borders, impact on unchecked immigration / NHS / foodbacks etc etc and controlled immigration....kinda like linking Kylie Minogue with Led Zeppelin !!!!


Well non indigenous languages is one part of the post. 

Then it moves on to how governments should be looking after the country point two. 

Finally NHS, housing, food banks and unfettered immigration do fit quite happily together if you think it through as an extra 10,000 people have to be housed somewhere apparently in all the housing we don't have, all have to have NHS treatment from a system already creaking under the strain. It's about the extra burden placed on the infrastructure and additional services provided in this society.

 Also for those persnickety people the 10,000 is a purely for example not based on anything more than a random number to get a point across

As for Kylie and Led it's easy guv it's all music to my ears.

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## EyeCarntSpell

Cant we just let the fit women in ?? .. I have just seen some of the women protesting in Hungary on TV about not being allowed in to go where they want without being registered or documented in anyway and to be fair some are as cute as a button. None so far are wearing the Batman getup so thats a positive thing. Unless you're an eye man and thats your thing. Anyhoo, this thread is getting completly out of hand. Someone has just dared to compare Kylie Minouge and Led Zeppelin when one is a musical collossus that will be revered down the generations and the other is just some band from the seventies.

Lets just get the hotties in and bask in their gratitude.

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