# General > General >  Asda

## kwbrown111

So our illustrious Thurso councillors turned down the planning permission. I hope everyone remembers to kick them out next time they're looking for election. I for one will be watching with interest they're reasons for it. i have my own opinion but i would get put in orger jail if i said it

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## clash67

> So our illustrious Thurso councillors turned down the planning permission. I hope everyone remembers to kick them out next time they're looking for election. I for one will be watching with interest they're reasons for it. i have my own opinion but i would get put in orger jail if i said it


No Way!! I thought that was a done deal! I will also be very interested as to why they turned down the planning permission! What a disgrace!! I am really so frustrated by the way caithness is being run, to many "dirty deals done cheap"!!!

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## rfr10

How did they manage to only receive 1 letter of support and 72!!!! letters of objection.

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## Mr P Cannop

> So our illustrious Thurso councillors turned down the planning permission. I hope everyone remembers to kick them out next time they're looking for election. I for one will be watching with interest they're reasons for it. i have my own opinion but i would get put in orger jail if i said it


is this true ???

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## bigjjuk

Well you know who to blame for not getting a Asda.  Does the councilors actually listen to the people of the county, or do they do whats best for themselves.  As for only one vote to approve...... seems very fishy, if its true then its the thurso folk to blame, you should now all be writing letters to the councillors and tell them what a huge mistake they have made.  If its left alone then they will just do it again when the next big thing arrives.

Very sad day for Thurso im in Wick but it is still a shame, democracy just took a nose dive.

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## changilass

[quote=robin170491]How did they manage to only receive 1 letter of support and 72!!!! letters of objection.[/quo

People only tend to go out of their way to write a letter when they are opposed to something, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the ones who objected, due to a loss of view, do their shopping in tesco in Wick when it arrives.

Was the Wick councillor, who used his casting vote to have the planning permission turned down, worried that some of the trade might just go to Thurso instead of Wick getting it all.

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## Praetorian

Casting vote went to the same counciller (who voted against it) who was all in favour for Tescos

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## Venture

If you go to the link mentioned on the home page it names the objectors at the end.  Shame really I was so looking forward to shopping there

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## dozy

There must be something wrong somewhere,because my wife and i both wrote letters of support .So that makes two letters for the project to start with .I would not like to think that the Asda Petrol Station had the Local Petrol Mafia up to no good . Maybe a vote of No confidence in the Council through the local paper would see the right people get the job and do what the votes want ...

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## DrSzin

There are local council elections next year: if you don't like what your local representatives are doing, then vote them out! Or organise a pro-ASDA campaign, and put up candidates against the ones you don't like. Note that half of Caithness's ten councillors were "elected" *unopposed* at the last election. That's not much of a democracy in my book. But you can't complain if no-one stands against them.

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## Royster1911

Well Mr Tom Jackson, con YOU explain to the people in your ward as to why you voted against Asda? I know you read the forum boards, so what better way of explaining yourself. When did you consult with your ward to find out what the people wanted rather than what you did not want. Pack your bags Tom. Your a gonner

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## DrSzin

> Well Mr Tom Jackson, con YOU explain to the people in your ward as to why you voted against Asda? I know you read the forum boards, so what better way of explaining yourself. When did you consult with your ward to find out what the people wanted rather than what you did not want. Pack your bags Tom. Your a gonner


Tom Jackson was "elected" unopposed last time. You know what you have to do.

Look at the addresses of the objectors. Look at the postcodes if you don't know the area - roughly 90% of them live within a (few) hundred yards of the proposed ASDA. That little lot take NIMBYism to a new level!  ::

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## Mr P Cannop

Supermarket giant Asda's plan to build a store on the outskirts of Thurso has been rejected by councillors.

Highland Council officials had recommended that the area's planning committee approve outline consent.

Asda's application was refused on the casting vote of the committee chairman and a company spokesman said the chain was considering an appeal.

Seventy-one objectors had called for the proposed site to be retained as the Caithness town's green belt.

A greenfield site on the north west fringe of Thurso was earmarked for a 2,896 sq metre store and petrol station.

Planning officials had recommended that the committee give the plan outline planning consent.

'Strict criteria'

However, on Monday, committee members rejected the application on the casting vote of chairman Graeme Smith.

Asda spokesman George Backovic said he was disappointed with the decision and said the main losers would be local shoppers and motorists.

Rob Gibson, SNP MSP for Highlands and Islands, praised the committee.

He said: "Supermarket expansion has to meet very strict criteria to protect the local economy."

Asda also has plans to build a store in Inverness

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## theone

A backward step by our backward councillors.

When talk of retail parks and tescos to wick starts, the locals embrace the notion. Thurso always seems to do the opposite.

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## dozy

My GOD it's a blue noon day .Councillers siding with the objectors and against Asda all because they will lose their view .A view that they have No title to ,but the Council spit in the face of objectors and support the wind factories that Destroy the landscape for all ....The whole thing STINKS .....WE'LL REMEMBER THIS NEXT TIME YOU COUNCILLERS COME BEGGING FOR VOTES .....SHAME ON YOU ..

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## pedromcgrory

few eric pollards in our mist i guess

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## Ricco

> Seventy-one objectors had called for the proposed site to be retained as the Caithness town's green belt.
> 
> A greenfield site on the north west fringe of Thurso was earmarked for a 2,896 sq metre store and petrol station.
> 
> Planning officials had recommended that the committee give the plan outline planning consent.


Why use a green field site?  It does seem a shame to spoil a view (that would put it somewhere in the direction of the Scrabtser road, wouldn't it?).  I remember a huge area of waste ground to the South East of Thurso juts near the castle.  Why not build it there?  It would be a more viable site, it would place it on a major road south-east towards Wick, it would place it near one of the largest housing estates around Thurso and it would make use of an ugly tract of land.

Also, maybe Adsa and the National Lottery could be milked for some money to 'do up' the castle.  I know, I know... you're going to tell me that it has already been built on in my absence.   ::

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## jay

I think we should vote  them out at the next election (May 2007) show them firmly what the people want and not only the four councillors who voted it down, the two who didn't bother to turn up for the vote!

In fairness tho' we could have all written in support - I for one didn't know you could or should do this, I thought letters were just for objections in cases like this.

Lets all write to ASDA and ask them to reapply!

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## rollerboy

its a really sad day for people like that to turn something like that down as it bring more employment into thurso but it seems there not seeing it that way?they must have there reason and us moaning about wont help its a real shame tho? lord thurso go jump of a cliff.

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## scotsboy

Democracy at work  these are your elected representatives. Hold them accountable.

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## Christine

I think it's what Councillors do best.  Make sure that they get what they want and are able to spin us a yarn that gets them off the hook!  Lets forget about the 'Local Plan' and 'the Greenfield Site'.  Mr Smith manages to forget about them too when it suits him, ie Tesco.  The whole point here is that David Flear, Bill Fernie, Alistair MacDonald and John Green voted for the Asda store because it made good economic sense, and they knew without doubt that the VAST majority of the people in the area wanted it.  Jackson, Saxon & Mackay were also aware that the majority wanted Asda but decided to vote against the wishes of their constituents because of ..... what?  The Local Plan?  I seem to remember someone trying to get a house built in Murkle which goes against the local plan and Mr Mackay supporting the application every time it comes before planning?!?    The bottom line is that the three Thurso Councillors dismissed the opinions of their constituents as being unimportant in the grand scheme of things.  They cannot be trusted to do the right thing by us in the future and therefore must go.  I have written to my own Councillor (one of the three) asking for his reasons for voting against the Asda store.  Needless to say he has not replied but I am now going to write to the Chief Executive of Highland Council to see if that will waken them up!

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## Fran

> So our illustrious Thurso councillors turned down the planning permission. I hope everyone remembers to kick them out next time they're looking for election. I for one will be watching with interest they're reasons for it. i have my own opinion but i would get put in orger jail if i said it


the councillors have submitted a notice of amendment to  reverse the decision, great news, see my new thread.

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## Moby

I have been looking around the Highland Council website for similar hearings regarding planning matters and note with interest that in Sep 2005 regarding the Lieurary Windfarm hearing that the following was stated:

"Councillor MacDonald, seconded by Councillor Flear, moved that the application be refused on the grounds that it was contrary to Policy E2 of the Highland Structure Plan as the visual impact of the proposed development would be significantly detrimental."

Hmmmm...........double standards or hedging bets for election time?

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## katarina

There is a letter in the groat today, suggesting that, to counteract the fears of supermarket giants ruining the centre of our towns, why not make part of the deal a condition that also buy  an empty premises in the town centre.  They could then use this as an extra outlet, or cafe - what ever they wanted.  What a good idea thinks me. This would satisfy those who object on the above reasons.
i believe the superstores are already looking at  purchasing 'corner shops' in the cities as extra outlets and by public demand. (if it's not already started) Why wait another 20 years before it happens here?
Can't the councilors do something with that one?

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## Max

What is all this green belt thing about??  Just look around we have miles and miles of "green".  You have to go about 10 miles past pennyland to get to the next village (Reay).  I know I'm not the brightest crayon in the box but am I missing something?

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## jay

I have now taken the time to speak to my local councillor, one of the three, after speaking to him I have to say, in all fairness, what he said did make sense. Seemingly there is land earmarked for retail purposes just the other side of the battery factory in Thurso, just a few hundred yards from the proposed site, it would not interfere with the local plan, anyone's view, cause congestion etc etc but ASDA don't seem to have considered it. Let's face it a few hundred yards out of the town wouldn't make that much difference as councillor Saxon says it would also strengthen the case  for the distributer road across the moor. He is not against ASDA just that particular place for it. He also says that ASDA's application had a lot of mistakes in it - wrong street names etc

I don't think ASDA is a lost cause yet!

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## bigjjuk

wrong street names???? that is a reason???

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## crashbandicoot1979

> wrong street names???? that is a reason???


I think they are trying to suggest that ASDA's research was not very meticulous if they are making such errors in their application. I doubt it would have made much difference anyway - the "green belt" thing was the clincher.

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## DrSzin

> I have now taken the time to speak to my local councillor, one of the three, after speaking to him I have to say, in all fairness, what he said did make sense. Seemingly there is land earmarked for retail purposes just the other side of the battery factory in Thurso, just a few hundred yards from the proposed site, it would not interfere with the local plan, anyone's view, cause congestion etc etc but ASDA don't seem to have considered it. Let's face it a few hundred yards out of the town wouldn't make that much difference as councillor Saxon says it would also strengthen the case  for the distributer road across the moor. He is not against ASDA just that particular place for it. He also says that ASDA's application had a lot of mistakes in it - wrong street names etc
> 
> I don't think ASDA is a lost cause yet!


Perhaps nobody told ASDA about it. I guess he didn't. He certainly didn't communicate his thoughts to the people he represents. I'm sorry, but when compared with my councillor (or the one I had when Safeway were building in my back yard), he just ain't in the same league. If he and his two partners-in-crime were any good they'd have avoided the current fiasco. What a shambles...

Oh yes, and my councillor is a Tory!  ::

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## mickey101

Hi
  I am sorry but Mr Saxon's answer stinks.  This is outline planning permission stage were there are several avenues available to the council to let the application proceed in principal without stopping it. Conditions etc could have been placed on the outline acceptance to encourage Asda to consider other factors. 

Mr Saxon et als real intention was to kill it stone dead and that is exactly what they tried to do. What they didnt count on was the back lash from the community and now he and his friends are desperately trying to spin their way out of it.  Sorry we arent that gullable.

Personnally the green belt excuse is a load of crock.  This isn't an inner city we live in a sparsly populated rural area and desperately need the jobs and investment that ASDA would bring..  That should have been the Thurso councillors first thought not looking after their own agenda.

As a matter of opinion I would prefer to see Asda in a better location but not at the price of losing the investment.  I think at the business park would be a better place to have it and it would not be any hardship to Asda.  It is only a few more minutes along the road and I dare say Rapsons will quickly include a regualr bus service out to the shop for those few folk who dont drive.
But first lets get ASDA back interested in investing in this community.

M

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## Kirsty Dubh

I agree. Councillor Saxon is just desperately trying to get out of it! Why didn't the Councillor's that voted YES have such objections. They seemed to put the views of the people first. Mr Saxon is just putting forward his own opinion all the time and that is not what he was voted in to do. Personally I don't want it to go to the business park. I think they chose the right spot - although I know it is in Mr Saxon's back yard so obviously he does not want it there (so the local plan jargon comes in handy)! Next they will be telling us they were doing it 'for the people' and everyone will be clapping them on the back telling them how wonderful they are. I think we all need to wake up!

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## mickey101

Hi
   I am curious about our well intentioned, well meaning duty bound councillors Mr Saxon et al.  As ASDA have been quite public about their plans,  even to the point of having a presentation at a local hotel. Did any of our esteemed Thurso councillors think to talk to them about there choice of location and that there was an area specifically zoned for retail development not a stone throws up the road?  
Did any of them think to work with ASDA to help ensure a satisfactory outcome for all concerned and ensure that Thurso benefitted from the investment?

Or am I being just tooooo smart here.

M

Sorry Roger you can shaft some of the people some of the time, but you cant shaft all of the people all of the time.

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## thebigman

> Hi
>   I am sorry but Mr Saxon's answer stinks.  This is outline planning permission stage were there are several avenues available to the council to let the application proceed in principal without stopping it. Conditions etc could have been placed on the outline acceptance to encourage Asda to consider other factors.


I'm afraid, like a number of people on this forum, you need to read up on the Planning legislation. The Council can alter designs, building layout etc at detailed planning stage but they cannot grant outline for a specific site and then insist that it moves 400 - 500 metres away at a later date.

The chances are that ASDA have made a specific financial offer for this site and any other land owners may not wish to sell. As may well be the case with in town sites such as the Thurso mart.

The Big Man

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## mickey101

Hi
    Okay I stand corrected on planning legislation however what is the point of having areas zoned for retail development if 
1) Interested parties arent told about them
2) The people who own the land that has been thus designated dont want to sell?

M

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## mickey101

Hi
    Okay I stand corrected on planning legislation however what is the point of having areas zoned for retail development if 
1) Interested parties arent told about them
2) The people who own the land that has been thus designated dont want to sell?

M

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## thebigman

> Hi
>     Okay I stand corrected on planning legislation however what is the point of having areas zoned for retail development if 
> 1) Interested parties arent told about them
> 2) The people who own the land that has been thus designated dont want to sell?
> 
> M


Mickey

If I was the Chief Executive of Walmart / ASDA I would be kicking some butt if my staff or agents didn't look at the local / area plans as a first step to submitting an application to see where the designated areas are.

As far as the sale of the land goes I suspect that most of the areas designated for commercial development are own by public authorities so in this case I woldn't see any problems with sale or lease.

The Big Man

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## Pepsi

[quote=mickey101]Hi
I am curious about our well intentioned, well meaning duty bound councillors Mr Saxon et al. As ASDA have been quite public about their plans, even to the point of having a presentation at a local hotel. Did any of our esteemed Thurso councillors think to talk to them about there choice of location and that there was an area specifically zoned for retail development not a stone throws up the road? 
Did any of them think to work with ASDA to help ensure a satisfactory outcome for all concerned and ensure that Thurso benefitted from the investment?

Hello Katrina MacNab here I have read many of your comment with interest and I have added a response on the 'missing councillor' thread.

With the utmost respect there is a lot of inaccuarcies here that on behalf of my fellow councillors I feel should be pointed out. 

as a councillor there is a strict code of conduct which prohibits any councillor discussing anything with developers. This puts us off attending public hearings as we can be be drawn in to things which would mean that we would not allow to take part in the planning meetings.

I would presume that the Thurso councillors like the rest of us would not have know that asda was coming up until the Thursday before the meeting on the Monday so they would not have had much notice.

I am going to tell a little story so bear with me as you all know Pulteney is classed as an area of deprivation, this is largely due to the shortage of 3 and 4 bedroom houses which are scare in my ward with virtually no 3/4 bedroomed council houses. This affects the south school roll and means that within the area we have a large amount of single people.

Pentland Housing/MM Miller put forward a proposal to build a mix of flats 3 and 4 bedroomed houses in the old Caithness Glass site. From the paper prepared I was delighted and the recommendation was for approval. 15 mins before the meeting we have the opportunity to look at the detailed plans - I was gutted - the 3/4 bedroomed houses had no gardens and the flats had big gardens. When it came on the agenda I urged refusal because in my experience people who need 3/4 bedroom houses have children and want a garden. People in flats are single people who often dont attend their garden to the annoyance of neighbours. Graham Smith urged councillor to put it through arguing their was a park nearby. I argued busy parents dont have time to keep going to the park and want to be able to put children out to play in safe secure gardens.

fortunately the councillors supported me and it was rejected with a strong message that it would be supported if they change the layout and include gardens for the bigger houses.

the developers took this on board and if anyone has been in Wick recently they will see the fine development taking place with houses being built that I am proud to have been involved in with appropriate gardens.

what I am trying to say is it is my understanding that none of the Thurso councillors are against ASDA what they are against is the location. Based on the grounds of the distributer road arguement being strenghened and the better location being at the battery park.

ASDA has not withdrawn their interest - Thurso Councillors do not oppose ASDA - the question is where is the best location? This is what you want to be debating. :: 

What the Thurso councillors were saying to asda was - hold on wait is this the best location for our town and they dont think the current proposal is.  I dont know the right answer (if there is one) but it is not as cut and dried as you think.

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## mickey101

Hi
   I am open to what has been written on behalf of Mrs McNab however I will make a plain statement that can be interpretted as people wish.

The people in Thurso have had it with getting the thin end of the wedge.  We pay our taxes and rates and in return we get degrading services from our local government and attempted removal of critical services by our central government.   

The quality of our supermarkets is ridiculous.  The local petrol retailers treat us like mugs and all the time we are expected to be grateful.

We see the local councillors apparently trying to uphold the status quo, protect the very businesses that have been taking us for a ride for so long  and keep what the people of Thurso perceive as a breath of retail fresh air out.

If ASDA walk away from this community then the people of Thurso will loose what little faith they have left in local Goverment and that would be a disaster.

Maybe in the long run ASDA will be bad for this community maybe it wont be.  But we would like to find that out for ourselves not have our unbiased local official go against the clear wishes of the community (and the planning officer for the county) and make that decision for us.  They were after all elected to represent the majority.

Getting back to Mrs McNabs point that nothing is as clear cut as it seems.  It is not hard to think the whole ASDA planning rejection stank and so far we have heard little to change our minds.  However the folk of Thurso  are reasonable people and we await our local councillors' explanation- so far they haven't.  When and if they do, just dont treat us like fools.  

Many of us are well versed in the saga of when Tesco tried to get into Thurso and the creative ways that were used to block it  until they eventually gave up.  Another example of Local Government working for the people it is supposed to represent is the Orange Phone mast in Naver field which was erected against common sense and the wishes of the locals.

BTW I am curious about the distributer road scheme?  Most people in Thurso cant see the point of it and exactly how is the council going to pay for it as they are proposing to cut services left/right and centre supposedly due to lack of funds.


M

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## abalone

It's taken me well over an hour to read this thread and I can understand why most people are disappointed with the councillors decision.I don't live in the area so I can't sign the petition but I do hope you get a review on the planning permission.At the last local elections I was delighted when someone stood as an Independent in my ward.It was short lived though,as soon as he was in he moved over to Labour.We should be able to sue for misrepresentation.It doesn't matter where you live green belt is only green belt when the council wants it to be.My town is in uproar at the moment because of the antics of the County Council.They have sold off sports and playing fields near the town centre for housing.It has now been discovered that there is a covenant on the ground forbidding building.Does the council care?of course they don't,they say because it's over sixty years old it's no longer legally binding.We do have a park given to the town by the Duke of Portland but it's not the same as playing fields.The local council here has a nasty habit of taking land left to the people of hucknall,the last lot they turned into a paying car park.Good luck with your petition but you will need to keep up the momentum.

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## DrSzin

> what I am trying to say is it is my understanding that none of the Thurso councillors are against ASDA what they are against is the location. Based on the grounds of the distributer road arguement being strenghened and the better location being at the battery park.
> 
> ASDA has not withdrawn their interest - Thurso Councillors do not oppose ASDA - the question is where is the best location? This is what you want to be debating.
> 
> What the Thurso councillors were saying to asda was - hold on wait is this the best location for our town and they dont think the current proposal is.  I dont know the right answer (if there is one) but it is not as cut and dried as you think.


This sounds like a bunch of lame excuses to me. If the Thurso councillors do not oppose ASDA but think it should be sited elsewhere then they should have made damned sure this information was conveyed to ASDA or whoever represents them. If ASDA didn't listen, then they should have tried harder and they should have done it in public by whatever means were appropriate.  They should also have been in better communication with the people they purport to represent.

The question of best location is not what we should be debating right now. It's what should have been debated long ago. Heck, even I knew that ASDA were applying for outline planning permission for a store at Pennyland; I also knew about the local plan for housing and the preferred location for business development between Naver and the business park - and I haven't lived in Thurso for years, nor have I had any particular interest in this business - until now. If I absorbed this information by osmosis then I'm equally sure that any councillors who were in favour of ASDA should have made sure that the aforementioned company absorbed it too.

Councillors often hide behind local plans and codes of conduct when they've underperformed. It's the sort of lame excuse we all use when we've not handled things very well. What is clear is that this has been a public relations disaster and no-one comes out smelling of roses.

Finally... At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseam...

Pepsi, could you (or someone else) please explain why the business park is a better location for ASDA? I don't see it myself. It's further out of town and it seems to me that its chief raison d'etre is to further the case for the "distributor road" (or whatever it's called).

Finally...

I hope you had a great holiday, and I'm truly sorry that I'm addressing this rant to you personally, but no-one else has stuck their head above the parapet. I've read about your work in Wick/Pulteneytown and have always been impressed.

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## Pepsi

> I hope you had a great holiday, and I'm truly sorry that I'm addressing this rant to you personally, but no-one else has stuck their head above the parapet. I've read about your work in Wick/Pulteneytown and have always been impressed.


No offence taken - thanks for acknowledgement of work going on in Wick/Pulteneytown but it is not really 'my work', I am just the front. Backstage in the council is without a doubt the team of officials who do most of the work, and the PPP work which includes breakfast club, after school club, summer club, hobbies groups, HomeLink, skatepark, and bus trips is all the work of the community who were fed up with nothing happening in Pulteney, I just muck in with them and it is great fun.

Talking of which it is PPP annual fun day today and the money raised goes towards summer school, hobbies groups and bus trips. These are attended by kids and ladies (generally) from Watten, Lybster, Keiss and all areas in Wick. So feel free to come along and support them. There is a barbecue, football tournament, bottle stall, games for kids, local high school bands, highland dancers and the majorettes. Come along and see a community doing something for their community. (just thought I would plug this cause a lot of hard work gone into organising it). :: 

South School 1pm Saturday

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## Pepsi

[quote=mickey101]Hi
_I am open to what has been written on behalf of Mrs McNab_

come on Mickey 'written on my behalf' - I can talk for my self. shutting up is my problem.

 ::  congrats on your arguement from the heart and I like that.

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## Sporran

> Finally... At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseam...
> 
> Pepsi, could you (or someone else) please explain why the business park is a better location for ASDA? I don't see it myself. It's further out of town and it seems to me that its chief raison d'etre is to further the case for the "distributor road" (or whatever it's called).


Doc, the business park is not much further out of town. It's on the A836, maybe a mile or so west of the site proposed by ASDA. Closer than Scrabster harbour, in fact. IMHO, it wouldn't be too much of an inconvenience driving that teeny bit more to get to ASDA at the business park. In that location, it wouldn't be obstructing anyone's view of Thurso Bay and the Orkneys.  :Smile:

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## Moby

The Councillors are governed by strict legislation regarding planning matters – they are unable to be involved before the hearing on the application, if they do become involved then they must declare an interest and remove themselves from the proceeding (therefore losing the right to vote on the matter). The legislations they must adhere to are:
Town & Country Planning (Scotland) Act 
COSLA – Advice for Councillors regarding Planning Matters
The Councillors Code of Conduct
The Local Plan
The National Planning Policy Guidelines
All the information they require is presented to them at the hearing meeting (in this case last Mondays) – they must satisfy themselves that the information addresses all issues raised the above legislation. The Council Planning Officer presents his plan, the Applicant (ASDA presents his proposal) and finally the objectors present their concerns. After all three are satisfied that they have been given a fair hearing the decision is passed to the Councillors.

I attended this meeting and ADSAs retail analysis was clearly flawed, the other sites they had been offered (eg: the small strip of land on Sir Archibald Road, the Thurso Caravan Site etc) were clearly unsuitable. The Council Planning Official could not speak to his own proposal – at one point he actually assured the Councillors that the siting of the store would have very little impact on neighbouring residents.

The anger here has been directed at the Councillors – you should be looking to question the Planning Department and Developers (Tulloch/Bay trading – who own both the Pennyland farm site and the large business development site 2 field further down the road) as to why they hadn’t offered the business part as another option at the start of this debacle. Had the Proposal come from ASDA at this site then I doubt any of the Councillors would have felt obliged to refuse the proposal due to the fact it was clearly contrary to Government policies – the “No” voting Councillors made their decision “by the book”. If the Developer had done their job properly six months ago we would all be rejoicing the coming of ASDA.

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## webmannie

> The Councillors are governed by strict legislation regarding planning matters  they are unable to be involved before the hearing on the application, if they do become involved then they must declare an interest and remove themselves from the proceeding (therefore losing the right to vote on the matter).


Guess you should have removed yourself then, you became involved before the meeting by sending in an objection.

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## DrSzin

Moby, you are missing the point. Councillors can make their opinions public in many ways. They can talk in public, they can circulate newsletters, they can talk to their constituents. Their views are not private matters that must be kept to themselves. Of course they can't be involved in a planning process which they will judge, but neither are they forced to keep their opinions in a hermetically sealed jar until judgement day. I've been through this whole process as a resident in an area where a huge supermarket was built and I know exactly what the local councillors did and didn't do. They made their views perfectly clear in public - they explained which sites were and weren't available and they listened to the local residents.

This whole process apears to have been a shambles. You can blame the planners if you wish, and I don't disagree with you on that front. But that ain't the whole story and you surely know it.

Enjoy your view.  :Grin:

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## mickey101

[QUOTE=Pepsi]


> Hi
> _I am open to what has been written on behalf of Mrs McNab_
> 
> come on Mickey 'written on my behalf' - I can talk for my self. shutting up is my problem.
> 
>  congrats on your arguement from the heart and I like that.


I wasn't aware that Pepsi was you and not a friend.  We are well used to our councillors hiding behind third parties and never coming out in person.  I do admire your guts for at least standing up in a public forum and putting your point across.

Your take on the facts may be the correct, however this town has seen too much double dealing by our local officials ( eg Wind turbines etc) to be anything less than cynical over our local councillors' behavour in this matter.  

ASDA made no secret of where they wanted to go and local councillors must have known this ( either that or they walk around with blind folds and ear muffs), You are telling me that there is no mechanism in place where they could have informed ASDA of locations that would be acceptable to both sides.  So knowing full well six months that the location was not acceptable to them for one reason or another, they let ASDA go blindly on????  No wonder the council is short of money that is a  criminal waste of resources, not to mention not in the communities' interest.

M


Ps I admire your stance on gardens however what happened with the development beside the Coop in Thurso?  I am surprised those houses even pass fire regulations they are that close together.  I doubt if it would be acceptable in a caravan park.

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## DrSzin

> The Councillors are governed by strict legislation regarding planning matters  they are unable to be involved before the hearing on the application, if they do become involved then they must declare an interest and remove themselves from the proceeding (therefore losing the right to vote on the matter).


Aye, and any councillor who lives in a house bordering the proposed development should surely _declare an interest and  remove themselves from the proceeding (therefore losing the right to vote on the matter)._  :Wink: 

Or is that bit of "common sense" not included in the oft-quoted legalistic diatribe?




> Doc, the business park is not much further out of town. It's on the A836, maybe a mile or so west of the site proposed by ASDA. Closer than Scrabster harbour, in fact. IMHO, it wouldn't be too much of an inconvenience driving that teeny bit more to get to ASDA at the business park. In that location, it wouldn't be obstructing anyone's view of Thurso Bay and the Orkneys.


Yes, I know where the business park is, and it's a good bit further out of town than Pennyland Farm - it's a lot further to walk for the couple of thousand(ish) people who live within walk-to-shop distance of Pennyland Farm, and there will likely be knock-on effects in traffic levels. The rationale for the other site also includes a road which doesn't currently exist. Last, and most definitely least, there's a plan to build new houses right next to the alternative site - they would be snapped up like hot-cakes because of their superb panoramic views over ASDA.  :Wink:  

Seriously, the other site does have some advantages, but it ain't a panacea either.

I think almost everyone would agree that this whole business could have been handled a lot better!

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## Kirsty Dubh

I am sorry but I still don't get it!  Just say for instance, and this is just hypothetical, that two or three weeks ago, someone (lets just say a Councillors wife) told a shopkeeper who was worried about Asda coming that she needn't worry and this same Councillor happened to be someone that lives close to the development and turned it down, would you not be a tiny bit suspicious - all hypothetical I might add!!!!!!!!!!  To me that means (a) he knew where Asda proposed to sight it just like the thousands of locals and (b) he had every intention of saying no - no matter what.  At that point he would not have known anything about the 'wrong addresses' or 'wrong streets'.  What a joke this whole thing is.  The best place for this development is Pennyland Farm and it is not as if it is going to be right in their faces like it would be if it was sited at the Mart (for the poor people on Ormlie Road!)   I also agree with the others that it will be too far out the road at the business park.  Lets not forget that four councillors proposed that it went ahead at Pennyland so lets just get on with it!!

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## mickey101

Hi
  To take Kirsty's hypothetical theory a stage further,  for what she suggests to be possible it would, in theory mean that our councillors had got together prior to the meeting and decided how they were going to vote without hearing any of the submissions.  
But of course they wouldnt do that, as it would not be ethical.  So of course it must be purely theoretical must it not??????.

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## DrSzin

I meant to draw attention to one of Moby's posts from five months ago. There's no mention of local plans or legalistic mumbo jumbo. Now tell us again that your real reason for objection is not NIMBYism.

I rest my case.  ::

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## webmannie

> I meant to draw attention to one of Moby's posts from five months ago. There's no mention of local plans or legalistic mumbo jumbo. Now tell us again that your real reason for objection is not NIMBYism.:


I just love the power of the internet, bet he stops posting now in case he incriminates himself again in the future

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## Humerous Vegetable

It seems that far too much power resides with Planning Committees and very little or no accountability. Like most working people, I am answerable for everything I do, or fail to do every minute of every day that I spend at work. Politicians seem only to be accountable for a few hours every 4 years on election day and not even then if they are returned unopposed.  The Asda fiasco gives a whole new meaning to the words "democratic process".

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## JAWS

> I meant to draw attention to one of Moby's posts from five months ago. There's no mention of local plans or legalistic mumbo jumbo. Now tell us again that your real reason for objection is not NIMBYism.
> 
> I rest my case.


I'm slipping, I had forgotten about that one, thanks Dr.S. 

I really am having difficulty coping with comments like, "Loss of Green Belt" and the demise of "Green Field Sites". 
From any particular place in Caithness if you travel for more than a mile or so you are surrounded by open Countryside. 
The rarest thing in Caithness is built-up areas. 

The Green Belt Legislation was originally enacted in order to prevent 
large towns sprawling out and merging into one another with no defining boundary between them. It was meant to stop certain areas from merging into one very massive Urban Area with no countryside whatsoever. 
It will be many Centuries before Thurso grows large enough to merge with anywhere. 
Can anybody honestly say that they fear Thurso, Castletown, Halkirk and Reay are on the verge of becoming one large Urban Area? 

Talk of the demise of the Green Belt and loss of Green Field sites in Caithness really is dredging the bottom of the barrel for excuses to block new developments. 

Not one real reason has been put forward for the ASDA site to be turned down. The only reasons which have been given are have been of pure self-interest, anti-competitive business intent or totally spurious inventions in an attempt to cover an act of gross stupidity.

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## MadPict

> Can anybody honestly say that they fear Thurso, Castletown, Halkirk and Reay are on the verge of becoming one large Urban Area?


Down here they are building new towns at the change of the weather - they have this twee habit of combining the two nearest village/town names to create a new one - for example, Cambridge and Bassingbourne to produce Cambourne.

Now if they did that in Caithness would they really have a new town called Thick?............ ::   ::

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## heretodaygonetomorrow

> Down here they are building new towns at the change of the weather - they have this twee habit of combining the two nearest village/town names to create a new one - for example, Cambridge and Bassingbourne to produce Cambourne.
> 
> Now if they did that in Caithness would they really have a new town called Thick?............


 

Brilliant!!!!!....sounds about right to me!!  .......only joking...honest!

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## Elenna

> Now if they did that in Caithness would they really have a new town called Thick?............


ROFL!!  ::  Yeah...would that likely be just down the road from Bow-ster?  :Wink:

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## bigpete

_I've been looking at the minutes of the meeting Caithness Councillors had on the 24th April with reference to Tesco in Wick.. Graeme Smith, Donald Mackay and Thomas Jackson were there (no idea where Saxon was). It was stated that "In the Local plan the land is allocated for uses in association with the airport. because no land is allocated in Caithness for proposals of this type the proposal does NOT COMPLY WITH THE LOCAL PLAN" - interesting as the ASDA plan did not either. It was stated that 20,000 lines of items would be in Tesco's (as compared to 3,000 in other supermarkets).. It was stated that some £8,000,000 was spent outwith of Caithness and thus more shopping would be retained within Caithness and less money would leak out.  "that the proposed development would help to ensure that money was being spent in the County rather than in the south"  it was further stated that "the store would create 200 jobs which will be filled by local people". A dissenting voice was - predictable - the bleeding heart of the Petrol stations who wished to retain the right to charge ridiculous prices for their fuel (does it really cost 8p to carry one and half pints of petrol from Inverness?)._

_Anyway, bearing all the above in mind Messers Smith, Mackay and Jackson voted for the development - which is very surprising as the same conditions applied to ASDA - opps sorry, forgot to mention that two of the dissenting Councillors overlook the ASDA development.._
_Do they really and honestly believe that by refusing ASDA this will benefit the petrol Stations in Thurso (all four of which work in concert; their prices are exactly the same, i.e. no competition whatsoever!) and also the town centre stores - which still close for lunch (have they never heard of this modern-day method of 'staggered lunch times'? and half-day closing._
_Do they really and honestly believe that motorists won't drive the 20 minutes to Wick for 'fair price fuel'? - good gracious a great many of us already drive to Inverness to get choice and price. Do they not think that with a 20,000 item line they will stay in Thurso with their paltry 3,000 choice? I really wonder what planet these people live on! Things change, every single shop in Thurso 'took over' from someone else, that's progress, do they not know that out there in the rest of UK EVERY SINGLE TOWN has experienced this progress?_

_It_ _might be that those Councillors who voted against ASDA have no business experience? Saxon: -  works currently and for past few year RWE Nukem based at Dounreay.  Jackson: Highland Council Finance department - now retired.  Smith: Social Security Manager - retired, then until recently worked 
at Wick Golf Club as bar steward. Those that work in the service industry need good choice and good prices, it seems the three above don't know that.._

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## mickey101

Hi
   I hope people realise that this fight is far from over.  The full planning commitee is just as likely to side with our three local heros to teach us a lesson for showing them up so publicly .

We need to bombard them with letters of support for ASDA's application just prior to the meeting on the 16th of August.  Does anyone know where we need to send letters.  As far as the council is concerned a petition only counts as one letter of support regardless of how large it is.

Also if ASDA if any sense they will go through the same exercise that Tesco did to back the local council into a corner.  

M

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## Margaret M.

> Now if they did that in Caithness would they really have a new town called Thick?............


Thick would be better than Wurso!

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## Pepsi

I have put the names of the people you need to contact on a separate thread called Planning and Development Counillors.

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## DrSzin

> Now if they did that in Caithness would they really have a new town called Thick?


Yup. And the council could create more new towns for those who wish to escape ASDA and Tesco. Moby would have a whale of time in the one between Dunnet and Wick.  ::

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## JAWS

If anybody wishes to email ASDA to give them some ammunition and encouragement to fight the ridiculous excuses used to block them coming to Caithness they can contact them via:- 

http://www.asda-press.co.uk/contact

We all know the real reasons behind the decision, which have little to do with the excuses invented for the refusal, and I would think such information from individuals would give ASDA help in getting the decision overturned. 

We have been here before when almost the same excuses were used in an attempt to block Tesco and Public Opinion managed to stop that piece of nonsense.
With a bit of effort the same can be done again with ASDA. 
Again, itis trime for the people of Caithness to let the selfish, self-serving few that walking all over the rest of people in Caithness is at an end.

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## bigpete

been told to delete

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## MadPict

> Moby would have a whale of time in the one between Dunnet and Wick.


Dunck?..........

...Winnet....

...Duck...... ::

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## bagpuss

I actually would like to see Asda in Thurso- but I'd like it even more if they built it on the site of the mart- right next to the rail link. That would be nice and ethical- no lorries cluttering up the place. It's a brownfield site- so no cause for objections.

Perhaps they could get their voiceover lady- local celeb Aline Mowat to open it?

Just think- it sells cheap school uniforms, so any pupil not appearing in THS dress code could be swiftly directed to a purveyor of black trousers, white shirt and sensible lace up shoes.

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## JAWS

> I actually would like to see Asda in Thurso- but I'd like it even more if they built it on the site of the mart- right next to the rail link. That would be nice and ethical- no lorries cluttering up the place. It's a brownfield site- so no cause for objections.
> 
> Perhaps they could get their voiceover lady- local celeb Aline Mowat to open it?
> 
> Just think- it sells cheap school uniforms, so any pupil not appearing in THS dress code could be swiftly directed to a purveyor of black trousers, white shirt and sensible lace up shoes.


You can't put it there, it might spoil somebody's pretty view and all those noisy shoppers disturbing the students at the College, how will they be able to concentrate with all the deliveries besides, it would be better earmarked as a recreational area and bring some green belt into the town itself instead of there being just another field next to all the other fields on the edge of town. 
I think the site would be far better turned into a Town Centre Green Lung for those who are deprived of a nice Sea View and only have other buildings spoiling there view. 

Besides, a Supermarket will only attract the students from the College and nearby Schools to go there and stuff themselves with Junk Food to the detriment of those businesses who are doing exactly the same in the Town Centre. 
And all those extra noisy goods trains would disturb the whole neighbourhood with their rattling and banging of doors all day and night! 

Sorry, I can't think of anymore pathetic excuses unless somebody can come up with some far fetched Plan for Caithness which is only called into practice when a convenient excuse is needed.  
.

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## bagpuss

Look at the towns between Aberdeen and Inverness- they seem to be getting a new Tesco and a new Asda- in the same town-but only on the outskirts-the ring roads.

The big objection appears to be coming from those people who've bought some nice expensive houses with a sea view- which will disappear if they get a view of a supermarket with car parking facilities.

Note there was far less opposition to Tesco in Wick? And Homebase etc.-these were out of town- and I mean out of town developments. Perhaps siting Asda on the A9- just outside Thurso might clinch it.

One thing I found out. One wee town with the 2 big guys used to be pretty much run by a bunch of shopkeepers whose businesses slid down and down. however, they sat on their property holdings until the increased retail spend- and the need for folk to commute further and further into Aberdeen shot the price of a flat way up- and then all their wee shoppies turned into nice little starter homes. The same thing is happening in Wick- the joiners are in the former Boots building on Bridge Street- and the developers are buying up anything that looks as if it might turn into a flat. A friend who found herself priced out of the rental market looked at a dilapidated cottage the other day. Three years ago, homes like that went fot pennies- she was looking at offers over £35k for the cottage- with a need to spend £50k to bring it up to spec- and there are nine offers on the table- all almost twice the asking price. Get it?

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## bigpete

Apathetic? Pathetic? what word am I searching for?
On Wednesday next, Highland Council will finally decide on whether ASDA comes to Thurso. 
At the time of initial refusal a petition was started on Caithness.org. and there are now some *2,929* signatures on the ASDA debate - these will count as just ONE objection.

By the amount of virulent utterances on that petition we would be led to believe that a vast majority of those who took the trouble to input their name and post code would be pretty certain to show their support if given the chance.
That chance was given, Caithness.org has continually published contact names and addresses on who to contact to register their support.

And yet in spite of all the hot air and empty statements a mere fraction of us got off our backsides and sent in their support:

73 individual letters of representation in support of the proposals,
a letter of overwhelming support for the application from the Thurso Community Council,
a petition with 13 signatures in support of the proposals and
200 pro-forma representations (179  in support, 21 against and 1 undecided).
The original 71 Objections from the June meeting still stand..
Oh well 265 folk did their bit - wonder where the remaining TWO THOUSAND AND SIXTY FOUR are?

So what's the word I'm looking for?

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## kwbrown111

are they not counting support done by e-mail

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## unicorn

i emailed my support also. is it not counting?

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## Piglet

Well i for 1 put my letter of support for asda to the council.
There is still time for a few more letters to be brought to there attention.
Heres hoping all goes well

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## JAWS

> Look at the towns between Aberdeen and Inverness- they seem to be getting a new Tesco and a new Asda- in the same town-but only on the outskirts-the ring roads.
> 
> The big objection appears to be coming from those people who've bought some nice expensive houses with a sea view- which will disappear if they get a view of a supermarket with car parking facilities.
> 
> Note there was far less opposition to Tesco in Wick? And Homebase etc.-these were out of town- and I mean out of town developments. Perhaps siting Asda on the A9- just outside Thurso might clinch it.


Didn't the same Planning Department turn down an objection by an individual claiming their view would be spoilt by somebody building a nearby house on the grounds that a "View" was not part of the considerations for Planning Permission"?

Strange how Fixed Rules conveniently "appear" and "disappear" on a whim yet ideas which are obviously meant to be guidelines are quoted as if they were set in stone for all eternity when it is convenient to do so.

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## Victor Vendetta

"Oh well 265 folk did their bit - wonder where the remaining TWO THOUSAND AND SIXTY FOUR are?

So what's the word I'm looking for?" (Dictionary?) 

As one of those reprehensible, parasitical 2064 who failed to rally my MP/MSP/MEP/Babysitter/the Planning Dept/Tony Blair/George Bush et al, I would like to say I'm layin' back waiting for the inevitable.

If you think it ain't comin you must be a councillor or one of those people in the quoted "nice expensive houses" on the estate overlooking the fields.

Mart/Pennyland/Anyland it's a comin!!!!

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## bigpete

_Victor Vendetta:"Oh well 265 folk did their bit - wonder where the remaining TWO THOUSAND AND SIXTY FOUR are?   So what's the word I'm looking for?" (Dictionary?) As one of those reprehensible, parasitical 2064 who failed to rally my MP/MSP/MEP/Babysitter/the Planning Dept/Tony Blair/George Bush et al, I would like to say I'm layin' back waiting for the inevitable. If you think it ain't comin you must be a councillor or one of those people in the quoted "nice expensive houses" on the estate overlooking the fields. Mart/Pennyland/Anyland it's a comin!!!!_

 Hi Victor
What are you on about? I've not called anyone ' reprehensible, parasitical ', it was just a passing thought that there is one hell of a lot of hot air around.. Not sure if you've read the latest bumph which has gone to the Councillors, but new laws have come in during the period that it was initially refused.. presume you've not read the 'bit' about the mart?

It's just that our wonderful, marvellous representatives need to know what their punters are thinking. You might think 'well it must be blinking obvious', but I actually (I tell no lie) had a dissenting councillor ring me up and who said he was "unaware of the strength of feeling" ref ASDA!
No I'm not one of these pain in the bum protesters or rally my MEP etc, just feel a simple letter to the Planning Officer would not be too much effort, and then I too could lay back.....

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## Victor Vendetta

No offence intended just a bit of tongue in cheek, I'll take it further out my cheek next time.

I don't care about the councillors who weren't aware (although I think that is someone who got a wee fright and is backtracking).

You are right I haven't read the article about any legislation etc etc but I do genuinely feel the ball is rolling far too fast to be stopped by anybody now.

With regards to councillors I was at a meeting recently as part of a group which included 2 of our 3 Thurso councillors and they don't impress me at all, the third one I worked with a number of years ago and the expression chocolate fireguard springs to mind.

Sorry I've gone a bit off message here better start another thread regarding the great job our much maligned  councillors do.

No more carping from the sidelines, thats my job!

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## bigpete

Hi Victor

Re Councillors, there are a couple of good ones and there's one prat who tells me he's passing an email of mine to his Solicitor, be interesting to see what happens there, I'll post his comments when (and if) they come in.. 
I think, like you, that ASDA is BIG (Especially with the muscle of their American bosses) with plenty of money (for appeals etc). 
It's like Tesco in (I think) Milton Keynes where the powers to be did not want the store, so they built over a railway line - thing collapsed - but shows the power they have.

I'm 'out west' and look forward to the day when I can drive into Town and fill up on reasonable priced fuel, and buy my groceries at a reasonable cost and not have to wait for certain shops to open after lunch!

Oh well we'll see what happens in a couple of days - I seem to think that if it is approved, it means it's against the 'Local Plan' and has to ratified by those down in Edinburgh, so be quite a while tootling back and forth to Wick.

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