# General > General >  One year on

## Gleber2

Just over a year ago I posted my first thread on this Forum where I expostulated that the Human Race is certifiably insane. One year down the line and I am more certain than ever that we are crazy.
Whether it is on this Forum or the worldwide stage we are busy arguing and fighting, bickering on a ridiculously low level and seem to be completely unable to co-exist with those we see as different whether in colour, religion, nationality or even sex. Is all hope gone, or is there a vestige of sanity left in this barren race which seems hellbent on self-destruction?
Politically, I don't think that anyone can say that Western involvement in Asia has benefitted the people of Afghanistan or Iraq and our lack of true involvement is doing little to improve the lot of the Palestinians or the Ethiopians. We get too fat when the other half starve to death.
Our eco-system is going crazy and we cannot even agree on the cause(s) and continue to pollute the environment to an unprecedented degree. What we do achieve is too little, too late and meanwhile the ice melts and the Gulf sream falters.
At a time when all humanity should be pulling together to avert the aproaching catastrophes we are splitting into smaller and smaller groups fighting each other. Even on this message board we cannot exchange ideas without attack and defence and bruised egos. As above, so below and all change must first come from the individual. How sad that we can hide the truth from ourselves when we have to shoulder blame, shame and guilt.
Yes, in my opinion, the human race is collectively insane.

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## danc1ngwitch

*oi you ! yep you ! looking your way> You sayin im insane hu?hu?hu?*
*Saying we fight an pick on this fine Org... Runs towards you, I say, i say, i say bhooyy... tickles your chin.. I aint in the mood for fighting e day ..   I'll drop kick you tommorrow ( winks )*

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## Jeemag_USA

> Just over a year ago I posted my first thread on this Forum where I expostulated that the Human Race is certifiably insane. One year down the line and I am more certain than ever that we are crazy.
> Whether it is on this Forum or the worldwide stage we are busy arguing and fighting, bickering on a ridiculously low level and seem to be completely unable to co-exist with those we see as different whether in colour, religion, nationality or even sex. Is all hope gone, or is there a vestige of sanity left in this barren race which seems hellbent on self-destruction?
> Politically, I don't think that anyone can say that Western involvement in Asia has benefitted the people of Afghanistan or Iraq and our lack of true involvement is doing little to improve the lot of the Palestinians or the Ethiopians. We get too fat when the other half starve to death.
> Our eco-system is going crazy and we cannot even agree on the cause(s) and continue to pollute the environment to an unprecedented degree. What we do achieve is too little, too late and meanwhile the ice melts and the Gulf sream falters.
> At a time when all humanity should be pulling together to avert the aproaching catastrophes we are splitting into smaller and smaller groups fighting each other. Even on this message board we cannot exchange ideas without attack and defence and bruised egos. As above, so below and all change must first come from the individual. How sad that we can hide the truth from ourselves when we have to shoulder blame, shame and guilt.
> Yes, in my opinion, the human race is collectively insane.


Agree pretty much with what your saying, but I don't think human society is collectively insane. But I would say in general most are deluded by material needs and have not yet found any kind of enlightenment. The trouble with a lot of us is we have a natural ability to feel we are right, and we have natural talent for saying something when it does not ned to be said, what I mean by that is having the urge to speak ones mind when you don't really have anything to say from your own mind on the subject. A lot of people will argue for arguings sake. Especially on a forum, when something stirs up people will jump in for the sake of jumping in even when they know nothing about the subject or have nothing to say on it (see above). That happens all over, and in life too.

I think the unfortunate thing about the Human Race is they allow minorities to take control and speak for the majority. The majority of the human race knows that enforcing the western ideal of democracy onto another region is not a good idea nor is it our place to do so and it will achieve nothing, but as we see a minority decided to go ahead an do it anyway for the so called good of the majority. In most civilized countries people feel they have freedom and democracy but underneath its not really true. People get to vote every so many years, but in between that if your government or parliament says they are going to do something and you don't like it you have to wait some years to vote them out. Therefore the majority has no real power and must wait and hope that a minority can take their head out of their behind.

For a world to be sane and surive in peaceful co-existence, their must be understanding in every individual as you say, but impoasing ones will on someone elses area with the use of force does not promote understanding. When this happens masses of people become deluded and people with conflicting ideals and big mouths rise up and encourage some of those masses to misunderstand others once again, wether they be terrorists, leaders, dictators whatever.

Until the human race collectively with total disregard for color, race or religion can say together "we don't want bloodshed, we want peace, we want to prosper amongst each other in a peaceful manner so that every man and woman around the world has the same equal rights regardless of their origin, without resorting to armed conflict" then the world will always be insane.

Its interesting to note that today in the USA is Martin Luther King day, a man with a great dream and a great vision, one of peaceful co-existence amongst all races and all brothers and sisters. Its a public holiday to celebrate a man with a great ideal, there is no public holiday in the USA for any of its presidents! From the end of his great speech on Capitol Hill in 1963, over forty years later has anything really changed to bring this dream to reality......

_"And when this happens,and when we allow freedom ring, when we let it ring from every tenement and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old negro spiritual, "Free at last, free at last. Thank God Almighty, we are free at last."_ 

I might be rambling aimlessly a little bit, but maybe someone understands what I am getting at  ::  

There is a simple demand that all people in all countries who enjoy life can give to all their politicians and leaders "We just want to live in peace, and achieve it in a peaceful manner".

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## danc1ngwitch

wow i feel like i just read a book ::

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## Gleber2

> I might be rambling aimlessly a little bit, but maybe someone understands what I am getting at  
> 
> There is a simple demand that all people in all countries who enjoy life can give to all their politicians and leaders "We just want to live in peace, and achieve it in a peaceful manner".


We seem to basically agree.(Love splitting infinitives).

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## fred

> I don't think that anyone can say that Western involvement in Asia has benefitted the people of Afghanistan or Iraq...<snip>


Erm...no sane person that is.




> We liberated that country from a tyrant. I think the Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude and I believe most Iraqis express that.
> 
> George W Bush  14th Jan 2007

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## Gleber2

> Erm...no sane person that is.


Well said Fred. George Bush Snr showed the first sign of insanity when Saddam was left in power in 1991. Must be hereditory.

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## fred

> Well said Fred. George Bush Snr showed the first sign of insanity when Saddam was left in power in 1991. Must be hereditory.


There was nothing insane about George Bush Snr, his options were very limited.

He did everything he could to get rid of Saddam without throwing the Middle East into turmoil but it wasn't enough and he knew it and backed off. G.W.H didn't want either the pro Iranian Shia or anti Turkish Kurds gaining power in Iraq, if only Jnr. had half his brains. Daddy might have been evil but at least he was rational.

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## Gleber2

> There was nothing insane about George Bush Snr, his options were very limited.
> 
> He did everything he could to get rid of Saddam without throwing the Middle East into turmoil but it wasn't enough and he knew it and backed off. G.W.H didn't want either the pro Iranian Shia or anti Turkish Kurds gaining power in Iraq, if only Jnr. had half his brains. Daddy might have been evil but at least he was rational.


Point taken but how much better would the world be if neither Snr or Jnr had never existed?

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## Bobbyian

Gleber2 and Jeemag I agree fully with you on this one. is there any more to say.  apart from we are all at present unable to get out of the Rat race..

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## Bobbyian

hey I´m an Orger what happend there.  sorry didnt mean to change the subject

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## the charlatans

human race is insane?

oh yes

wibble wobble fish.

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## scorrie

> Yes, in my opinion, the human race is collectively insane.


I agreed with your assessment at the time and a year on our relentless "progress" continues up the hill in a backwards direction. 

We are blessed with a beautiful planet which provides enough food so that no person should have to go without. We have the intelligence and skills to be able to make that a reality but we do not possess the will to make it happen. The human being is largely a selfish creature. No doubt when man was in his infancy it was a world where it was the survival of the fittest and a question of looking after number one. However, the developed countries of the modern world are surely populated by people capable of looking at the bigger picture.

You look at the modern human and see someone who may be taken up by a career, possessions, social status, power, seeking to understand their "creator" etc.  These are all activities which focus on the self directly and, perhaps, by proxy through their close family.  It does not focus on the bigger picture and a world where human life is cheap in many countries and the planet itself is raped mercilessly day after day.

We, as a species, aim for the stars, quite literally, through the exploration of Space and are often seen to be on a quest to touch the face of God. Lofty ambitions for a race that cannot even put food into the mouths of their fellow humans when the food is there and the means to reach our hand out is at our disposal.

I would think that if God is playing the Computer game Populous he must be getting pretty close to hitting the "New Game" icon ;o)

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## Gleber2

Right on the button. Well said!
We are living in a reality which seems to be driven solely by the I/me ego's of the majority.

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## fred

> Point taken but how much better would the world be if neither Snr or Jnr had never existed?


Snr.? I don't think it would have made a lot of difference, he kept to the script.

Jnr.? One day people are going to wake up and realise just how much damage that boy has done and all hell will let loose. The world would be better off if Saddam Hussein's mother had had sextuplets provided George Bush's mother had kept her legs crossed.

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## Margaret M.

I so agree with you Gleber.  How different things may have been had Al Gore become President.  A President who would have been more focused on global warming and the environment than on seeking revenge at any price.  The political system in this country is so broken I don't know what it will take to fix it.  Sadly the majority of citizens here care more about Brittney Spears' underwear than what our government is doing or the effect that global warming will have on every creature on the planet.

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## Jeemag_USA

> I so agree with you Gleber. How different things may have been had Al Gore become President. A President who would have been more focused on global warming and the environment than on seeking revenge at any price. The political system in this country is so broken I don't know what it will take to fix it. Sadly the majority of citizens here care more about Brittney Spears' underwear than what our government is doing or the effect that global warming will have on every creature on the planet.


You are not far wrong there unfortunately, it seems to me most of the USA is hell bent on celebrity, I think they even vote on the premise of who mught be the bigger celebrity, what does there wife look like and does he have daughters that might get drunk at parties. American TV is taken over with reality shows, you can't expect people to take things seriously when they don't what they are doing themselves half the time  ::

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## Wizzbang

To true. what a world if a football player can be paid £1M a week yet we cant feed the starving .
Its the Lunatics in charge of the asylum I fear

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## North Rhins

The sad truth is that the lunatics would probably make a better job of running it. :Frown:

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## Saveman

One year on....and things are worse and more insane than ever.

What was it that crazy guy walking down the street with the sandwich board was saying??
Oh yeah....."The end is nigh!"  

....and don't say we don't deserve it.....

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## Gleber2

> One year on....and things are worse and more insane than ever.
> 
> What was it that crazy guy walking down the street with the sandwich board was saying??
> Oh yeah....."The end is nigh!" 
> 
> ....and don't say we don't deserve it.....


I am glad we still agree. Armageddon! Apocalypse! Repent. ::

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## Jeemag_USA

Two quotes from probably my two greatest civil rights heroes, I always thought if one took advice only from Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King (the latter was heavily influenced by the former) you couldn't go too far wrong as they both had the same ideals for mankind. I thought they were somewhat pertinent to Gleber2's post.




> *Mohandas K Gandhi* - You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty.





> *Martin Luther King* - Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time; the need for mankind to overcome oppression and violence without resorting to oppression and violence. Mankind must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.


 :Wink:

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## JAWS

Since the beginning of History, and there is no reason to believe it was any different prior to that, people have suggested, and probably quite correctly, that the Human Race suffers some kind of insanity. 

All that has altered is that the names of the 'god's' we sacrifice to in order to gain forgiveness for the various kinds of 'sin' each era has invented in order to find reasons to punish itself. So it always has been and so it always will be. The only thing which is inevitable is that one day, just like every other species, Humanity will eventually become extinct. 

In the mean time, things will continue as they always have, we will look at the problems of today and moan that things have never been so bad, that Humanity has never been so evil, and we must repent and punish ourselves for the 'evils' of our current age. 

The only thing that concerns me is what "sacrifice" I should be making and on the Altar of which "god" the current society demands I should be bowing down to. 

If the current batch of Humanity is "Insane" then it is no different to any prior batch and there is little that can be done about it, it is obviously in the nature of things. 

The sun will rise in the morning and will set in the evening, that also is in the nature of things and as such will not fill my mind with worry for too long either.

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## Bobinovich

Some very thought provoking and well written pieces there fellow Orgers.

Surely the understanding and action needs to start with those in power as it is they who control what happens in this world. Yes the people vote them in the first place, but in the absence of suitable alternatives - who will take up the reins and put us on the right track - what are the options for the meek of this earth?

More to the point will there be anything worth inheriting when it does eventually happen?

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## Jeemag_USA

> Some very thought provoking and well written pieces there fellow Orgers.
> 
> Surely the understanding and action needs to start with those in power as it is they who control what happens in this world. Yes the people vote them in the first place, but in the absence of suitable alternatives - who will take up the reins and put us on the right track - what are the options for the meek of this earth?
> 
> More to the point will there be anything worth inheriting when it does eventually happen?


I have always been of the belief that there are too many people in the world who don' want to think, I am not sure if they are "the meek" or not, but it seems like every once in a while in history it takes a very strong minded and determined individual to come along and wake these people up, and yes I am referring to people like Gandhi, MLK, Mandela perhaps even Jesus although I have always been one for following the wisdom of people in recent times that I know have not gotten so historic that the truth about them may be or has been embellished. But unfortunately these types of thoguht provoking individuals come along all too infrequently its like the ratio of saints to tyrants is like 50:1 or something, who knows. I don't think there is going to be a mass enlightenment of human conscience, as usual it will take someone to stand up and shout truth at everyone until they get assasinated, I just hope the next time such a powerful individual comes along he is not just shot again and forgotten about after some years. I don't believe we start at the top like you say, we start at the bottom, the top will always do what they want until the bottom stop letting them, by educating or opening the eyes of the bottom you will have more control over the top.

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## Gleber2

We still agree, James. The answer will only be found when we realise that the enlightenment required to avert the future as I see it must be all-encompassing. Bottom and top!! We are all one entity and all human.

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## Blazing Sporrans

I read this thread and think that the writings of the marvellous Alan Moore in "Watchmen" were the work of a prophetic genius. For the uninitiated, it centres around an alternative future, where the Cold War takes the USSR and the USA ever closer to conflict and the MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) scenario is inevitable. One character, realising this, has the scientific and financial means to present the biggest hoax of all time and stages what appears to be an attempt by aliens to invade earth (destroying half of New York in the process). Realising that a much greater threat has appeared, the USSR, USA and other governments of the world unite to form an alliance that will combat any prospect of alien invasion etc etc.... and they pull away from the precipice of world destruction.

What short of a few million years of therapy for all mankind might achieve the same end? Here's hoping Bill Gates has read the book.....

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## Victoria

all sounds a but celestine prophecy like to me. Not that I don't agree

 :Smile:

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## Ricco

Nice thread.. I have often wondered how on earth the human race ever got this far.  Babies are born as little bald, squirmy pink things that make a lot of noise and make a lot of smells.  Why didn't the human race all get devoured thousands of years ago?

Then the squirmy things grow into teenagers.. who argue and pick fights with just about anything.  Same bewilderment on my front - why didn't they all get devoured many, many years ago?

Now we have adults who go around shooting, stabbing, strangling, bombing each other to pieces; driving stupidly with mobile phones up to their ears, pulling across lanes of traffic, etc.

I am just always gob-smacked that we not only survived but also prgressed as far as we have.  Someone must love us!   :Wink:

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## Gleber2

> I am just always gob-smacked that we not only survived but also prgressed as far as we have. Someone must love us!


You call this progress? More deaths, more wars, more famine, more uncurable diseases appearing, more pollution and more poverty than has ever been seen on this poor benighted planet in recorded history. I call this regression not progress.

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## Jeemag_USA

> all sounds a but celestine prophecy like to me. Not that I don't agree


Celestine Prophecy was a pretty good read, he took what many have know for years and made it into a story (same as DaVinci Code nothing new). but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that for the human race to evolve a stage further, it is bound to be at a mental level and not a physical one.

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## Saveman

> You call this progress? More deaths, more wars, more famine, more uncurable diseases appearing, more pollution and more poverty than has ever been seen on this poor benighted planet in recorded history. I call this regression not progress.


You're dead right G2.....for every good deed done there must be hundreds more bad deeds, look at the big picture folks....it's not pretty

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## fred

> You call this progress? More deaths, more wars, more famine, more uncurable diseases appearing, more pollution and more poverty than has ever been seen on this poor benighted planet in recorded history. I call this regression not progress.


I reckon as what they do they'll never change the death rate, it will always be one per person.

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## Gleber2

> I reckon as what they do they'll never change the death rate, it will always be one per person.


Good grief, Fred, are you being humerous? LOL

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## Jeemag_USA

> You're dead right G2.....for every good deed done there must be hundreds more bad deeds, look at the big picture folks....it's not pretty


I always look at the big picture and I think the opposite way though, for every bad deed done there are hundreds of good ones, but it depends on what you consider a good deed I guess.

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## Gleber2

The present furore over Big Brother is a fair representation of the level of decadence and insanity that pervades our reality. A not very attractive, ignorant, loud mouthed nobody is hurling insults at some-one who is beautiful, educated and intelligent and all dear Jade can do is hurl racist insults to cover up her own insecure ego. Happens every day in real life and no-one turns a hair but in our crazy world it has created an international crisis because they are 'celebrities' and are on TV, taking part in what must be one of the most inane TV shows ever. Aye, it's a crazy world!!!!!

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## George Brims

This year, both Groundhog Day and the State of the Union address occur on the same day. As Air America Radio pointed out, "It is an ironic juxtaposition of events: one involves a meaningless ritual in which we look to a creature of little intelligence for prognostication, while the other involves a groundhog."

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## canuck

> The present furore over Big Brother is a fair representation of the level of decadence and insanity that pervades our reality. A not very attractive, ignorant, loud mouthed nobody is hurling insults at some-one who is beautiful, educated and intelligent and all dear Jade can do is hurl racist insults to cover up her own insecure ego. Happens every day in real life and no-one turns a hair but in our crazy world it has created an international crisis because they are 'celebrities' and are on TV, taking part in what must be one of the most inane TV shows ever. Aye, it's a crazy world!!!!!


The Big Brother UK controversy of which you write made it on to the Canadian National News yesterday. The decadence and insanity is newsworthy, why I don't know, but it seems to be worth reporting.

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## Cedric Farthsbottom III

The world is insane.The problem is there's so many folk who think they know better than the next person.I look at the wee picture of the world cos I care for ma own and don't care what someone is doing elsewhere.

As a very famous comedian once said,"Don't crap in someone else's garden and they'll no crap in yours"

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## mareng

> The present furore over Big Brother is a fair representation of the level of decadence and insanity that pervades our reality. A not very attractive, ignorant, loud mouthed nobody is hurling insults at some-one who is beautiful, educated and intelligent and all dear Jade can do is hurl racist insults to cover up her own insecure ego. Happens every day in real life and no-one turns a hair but in our crazy world it has created an international crisis because they are 'celebrities' and are on TV, taking part in what must be one of the most inane TV shows ever. Aye, it's a crazy world!!!!!


Very well put! 

............... "and the prize for the foul-gobbed Sea Donkey goes to.......... Jade Goody!"

....... and where were the other "inmates" who clearly recognised  bullying?  They were more interested in staying out if that and staying in the ratings.

(Don't expect any of that bunch of spineless morons (not my word of choice) to intervene if you call for assistance on a night out in the city)

Please don't any Orgers admit to actually voting on this "entertainment" !!!???

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## Jeemag_USA

> This year, both Groundhog Day and the State of the Union address occur on the same day. As Air America Radio pointed out, "It is an ironic juxtaposition of events: one involves a meaningless ritual in which we look to a creature of little intelligence for prognostication, while the other involves a groundhog."


We still have laughter amongst the insanity, and I don't care who you are, that's funny  ::  

I see Pelosi, the speaker of the house in Washington has been labelled as "Poisonous" for speaking the truth today, she pretty much told Bush he had dug himself a hole in Iraq which he does not know how to get out of, and of course its scandalous for her to say such a thing, such has always been the way in history when someone speaks the truth it is always wrong  :Wink:

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## Saxo01

Just to cheer you up gleber2 gibson 1961 es335 not in that good a shape lots of cracks in the laquer & the usual wear & tear £15,000 on e-bay

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## Gleber2

> Just to cheer you up gleber2 gibson 1961 es335 not in that good a shape lots of cracks in the laquer & the usual wear & tear £15,000 on e-bay


Good grief. My 1960 345 could be quite valuable. World is insane!!!!

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## fred

> You're dead right G2.....for every good deed done there must be hundreds more bad deeds, look at the big picture folks....it's not pretty


It isn't all doom and gloom Saveman look on the bright side.

With a mad man in the White House and a Congress cutting off his funding there is a better than 50/50 chance that either America or Israel will use nuclear weapons against Iran in the near future. If that happens the chances of civilisation as we know it existing in another 10 years are pretty slim.

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## Ricco

> You call this progress? More deaths, more wars, more famine, more uncurable diseases appearing, more pollution and more poverty than has ever been seen on this poor benighted planet in recorded history. I call this regression not progress.


Ah, my old friend - but don't we do it so much better now?  :Wink:

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## Saveman

> It isn't all doom and gloom Saveman look on the bright side.
> 
> With a mad man in the White House and a Congress cutting off his funding there is a better than 50/50 chance that either America or Israel will use nuclear weapons against Iran in the near future. If that happens the chances of civilisation as we know it existing in another 10 years are pretty slim.


Well Fred I'm glad to say I have a brighter outlook for the future than that. But we don't want this to turn into a religious discussion do we?  ::

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## gleeber

> Well Fred I'm glad to say I have a brighter outlook for the future than that. But we don't want this to turn into a religious discussion do we?


Religious paranoia is behind most of the posts on this thread.
Most of the posters have religious leanings ranging from crazy ideas of personal Gods to universal forces called Karma.
That's what's behind this thread. The old guy with the billboard declaring the end of the world is nigh would be at home amongst some of you lot.  :Wink: Although your ideas of religious experience may differ the emotions are the same. 
Freud called it the death instinct. I tend to go along with his idea that human beings have an inbuilt tendancy to project their own deaths onto the whole world. Look above if any evidence is required.

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## Jeemag_USA

> Religious paranoia is behind most of the posts on this thread.
> Most of the posters have religious leanings ranging from crazy ideas of personal Gods to universal forces called Karma.
> That's what's behind this thread. The old guy with the billboard declaring the end of the world is nigh would be at home amongst some of you lot. Although your ideas of religious experience may differ the emotions are the same. 
> Freud called it the death instinct. I tend to go along with his idea that human beings have an inbuilt tendancy to project their own deaths onto the whole world. Look above if any evidence is required.


I refer this post the first paragraph of my first post. The thread was going along nicely without pointing fingers at the whole forum or trying to drag or bait others into a religous debate? Not really necessary.

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## fred

> Religious paranoia is behind most of the posts on this thread.
> Most of the posters have religious leanings ranging from crazy ideas of personal Gods to universal forces called Karma.
> That's what's behind this thread. The old guy with the billboard declaring the end of the world is nigh would be at home amongst some of you lot. Although your ideas of religious experience may differ the emotions are the same. 
> Freud called it the death instinct. I tend to go along with his idea that human beings have an inbuilt tendancy to project their own deaths onto the whole world. Look above if any evidence is required.


But death is a fact of life gleeber there is nothing more certain, the old have to die so the new can be born. This applies to everything from the humble house fly to civilisations. Like a clock which is stopped people who predict the end of the world are always going to be right at some point.

It's the people who predict that our consumer society can continue expanding at an exponential rate indefinitely that are crazy.




> I often think off the live I've led
> And O, It's a wonder, I ain't dead
> Drinking and gambling
> staying out all night
> Living is a fool's paradise
> 
> My mother told me and my father told me too
> Said my child, it's all catch up with you
> 
> ...

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## Victoria

I think that as long everyone on here can appreciate that everyone has their own views and opinions and be adult enough to express them wisely then it shouldnt turn nasty.

Surely thats what a debate is all about.

peace, love & harmony

Vic xxx

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## Angela

That would be ideal!  :Smile:  

But haven't you found that wherever you are, no matter how big or small the organisation, there are always people who don't appreciate the other point of view, who think that they must always be right and what's more they must always have the last word to "prove" how right they are?  :Frown:

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## gleeber

You may well be right Fred.  What I am saying though is that there are underlying dynamics that need to be considered when such questions as glebers are posed and answered.
Not to consider someones religious tendancies on a thread like this is to turn a blind eye to what many would consider the source of mankinds insanty.

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## Saveman

Your views on faith are well known Gleeber, to me and a few others at least.  :Smile: 

But all that aside.............you think the world is a rosy place?

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## Gleber2

This thread was started with no reference to religion or politics per se. When you look at a madman, you do not consider his beliefs only the result of his madness and how it affects you. Madmen who are a danger to themselves and others are generally locked away. A pity we cannot do the same to the human race or maybe that's what planet Earth is. A giant nuthouse.
Gleeber, your inherent faith in Science and facts and your unbelievable optimism as regards our future I find childishly naive in a reality where the eco-damage is increasing exponentially as we march roughshod through the 21st century.
I detect a little bit of acrimony and defence in some of the posts on this thread. Continued proof of the conclusions of the first post.

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## fred

> You may well be right Fred.  What I am saying though is that there are underlying dynamics that need to be considered when such questions as glebers are posed and answered.
> Not to consider someones religious tendancies on a thread like this is to turn a blind eye to what many would consider the source of mankinds insanty.


It is fanaticism which is the insanity not religion, to dismiss religion because of the fanatic is to throw the baby out with the bath water.

We have many different religions represented on this forum, in the past I've looked at most of them and found bits I liked and bits I didn't like. The one I liked the most is more of a philosophy than a religion, Zen Budhism, but I've never really practiced it or any of the others for that matter.

But I learnt a lot from all of them.

----------


## crayola

> I think that as long everyone on here can appreciate that everyone has their own views and opinions and be adult enough to express them wisely then it shouldnt turn nasty.
> 
> Surely thats what a debate is all about.
> 
> peace, love & harmony
> 
> Vic xxx





> That would be ideal!  
> 
> But haven't you found that wherever you are, no matter how big or small the organisation, there are always people who don't appreciate the other point of view, who think that they must always be right and what's more they must always have the last word to "prove" how right they are?





> It is fanaticism which is the insanity not religion, to dismiss religion because of the fanatic is to throw the baby out with the bath water.
> 
> We have many different religions represented on this forum, in the past I've looked at most of them and found bits I liked and bits I didn't like. The one I liked the most is more of a philosophy than a religion, Zen Budhism, but I've never really practiced it or any of the others for that matter.
> 
> But I learnt a lot from all of them.


Lots of sense from the ladies here. You're an honorary XX tonight fred xxxx. Those are kisses not chromosones  :Wink: 

Why can men not sit down together and work things out? Egos always get in the way. Gleber2 has his nightmare and gleeber blames it all on religion. Does nothing change? No, not when the world is run by inflexible men with fixed ideas. What they need is a good dose of pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding. Then they might see the world as she really is.

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## JAWS

Humanity has always had the arrogant belief that it is capable of altering the Earth. People have been announcing, "Behold the end of the World is at hand!" since shortly after then learned to form words into sentences. 
Whatever humanity does, or does not do, the Earth and life of some kind will still be around. Humans, like every other species, will eventually become extinct as eventually will mammals. Once that happens the next stage in life will appear and take over. 
In the long run we are of no more significance than the odd leaf falling from a tree at the end of summer.  

Whatever humanity puts it's faith in, be it Religion, Politics or Science, the only thing that is inevitable is that there will always be "Prophets of Doom!" insisting we will have to change our ways or be Damned for the rest of Eternity! 
Only the name of whatever they put all their Faith in changes with time,  the "Message" and the zeal with which they preach it always remains the same.

----------


## Bobbyian

[quote=JAWS;183643]Humanity has always had the arrogant belief that it is capable of altering the Earth. 

Surely that is not a belief but a fact now    and it is not to the benefit of Humanity
and whats more insane the majority of Humans don`t even want to do anything about it really ther more interested in their little life

----------


## gleeber

Hands up anyone who thinks the world hasnt changed in the last 50 years?
Apart from a bunch of religious maniacs who want to impose their insane standards on us I say the world has become a safer place even though we have it at our fingertips to wipe out mankind.
Since science discovered that our affluence and effluence is causing major problems to our environment we have started to do things about it. To knock it is to do nothing.
Unfortunely religious ideaoligy still permeates our everyday lives and although I  agree with Fred that religion is not necessarily the whole problem, I believe that illogical belief is at the root of the insanity this thread addresses.
Although we all know how communism manifested itself in practice who amongst us would vote for a communist politician or be happy with schools teaching it as an alternative to our own politics of the free market? Yet, communism taught me that I am as equal as the next man.
Look at Europe. Are the bonds built up over the last 50 years a sign of insanity? I see it as a sign of hope even though that hope is severely dashed by some of the opinions expressed on this thread and other threads where nationalism is being recomended for my country. Seperation is the enemy, not insanity.
What Jaws may call mankinds arrogance to control nature is in my opinion the very essence of being human. We have arrived here from a long evolutionary journey becuase we have taken our sustinance from nature. Its our right, not some egotistical idea that we can live on fresh air alone. We have now become aware that our environment needs help to continue to sustain us and my faith is in mans, and womans so called arrogance to create the resources to help us into the next millenium.
Who amongst us asked to be brought into this world? When we arrive here the rules are already set. Break them or disagree with the status quo and we are in trouble.
In my world there is no inherant meaning to mankinds existance. There are no Gods, no Karma....just me....and you.
We may do insane things but NO, we are not insane.

----------


## fred

> I  agree with Fred that religion is not necessarily the whole problem, I believe that illogical belief is at the root of the insanity this thread addresses.


Yes, like the illogical belief that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, the illogical belief that Iran is arming Sinni insurgents to kill their own Shia allies, the illogical belief that possessions bring happiness, it is illogical beliefs that are driving man to destroy himself and the planet we live on.

I'm a Koestler Ghost in the Machine man myself, the modern brain was built on top of man's primative brain and at times the primative brain comes to the fore. That is in spite of the efforts of religion not because of them. Read what the religions are trying to say, read the Ten Commandments, their every effort is to make the modern logical brain master over the primative animal brain but as how many times we are told "thou shalt not kill" we just can't help ourselves and we aint too good on the coveting our neighbours ass front either.

----------


## Gleber2

> Hands up anyone who thinks the world hasnt changed in the last 50 years?
> Apart from a bunch of religious maniacs who want to impose their insane standards on us I say the world has become a safer place even though we have it at our fingertips to wipe out mankind.
> Since science discovered that our affluence and effluence is causing major problems to our environment we have started to do things about it. To knock it is to do nothing.
> Unfortunely religious ideaoligy still permeates our everyday lives and although I agree with Fred that religion is not necessarily the whole problem, I believe that illogical belief is at the root of the insanity this thread addresses.
> Although we all know how communism manifested itself in practice who amongst us would vote for a communist politician or be happy with schools teaching it as an alternative to our own politics of the free market? Yet, communism taught me that I am as equal as the next man.
> Look at Europe. Are the bonds built up over the last 50 years a sign of insanity? I see it as a sign of hope even though that hope is severely dashed by some of the opinions expressed on this thread and other threads where nationalism is being recomended for my country. Seperation is the enemy, not insanity.
> What Jaws may call mankinds arrogance to control nature is in my opinion the very essence of being human. We have arrived here from a long evolutionary journey becuase we have taken our sustinance from nature. Its our right, not some egotistical idea that we can live on fresh air alone. We have now become aware that our environment needs help to continue to sustain us and my faith is in mans, and womans so called arrogance to create the resources to help us into the next millenium.
> Who amongst us asked to be brought into this world? When we arrive here the rules are already set. Break them or disagree with the status quo and we are in trouble.
> In my world there is no inherant meaning to mankinds existance. There are no Gods, no Karma....just me....and you.
> We may do insane things but NO, we are not insane.


O to have the faith in any dogma that you have so strongly in your own. To be so certain and so sure. You have faith in a chimera known as scientific fact when it is the scientists who have given the fanatics the ability to do what has never been done before. 
One can see, from observation, the path the future could take and we also hope that we can avert it. I, for one, look for no-one to save us and look for no-one or nothing to blame. It is true to say that the steps to destruction have been shorter and faster since the Industrial revolution and the acceleration rate is increasing rapidly. 

Although I pulled my head from the sand and looked around at reality, realising the precariousness of our position, I have maintained a hope that we might change and rescue ourselves from our self created quagmire in time to allow us more time on a viable planet. You cannot blame religion or politics, you can only blame Homo Sapien for being a blind destructive child who only sees his own position as important at the expense of everything else.
Hubris is the force that will destroy us.

----------


## canuck

I aint lookin for an orgument!! 

And you won't get one from me on this post!

----------


## Kenn

Gleber2 wrote,
Yes, in my opinion, the human race is collectively insane.

Now if we apply the above law that would infer that as his judgement is suspect, having declared himself insane along with the rest of humanity, that the human race is collectively sane.
However this would be subject to which side up the toast fell onto the carpet and as to whether it had marmite or marmalade spread on it. 
Equally the results are not to be relied upon as when using this law one has to factor in whatever results are forthcoming, that the law itself may have interfered with the outcome.
On that note I am about to reach for the white coat and head for the padded cell!

----------


## Gleber2

> Gleber2 wrote,
> Yes, in my opinion, the human race is collectively insane.
> 
> Now if we apply the above law that would infer that as his judgement is suspect, having declared himself insane along with the rest of humanity, that the human race is collectively sane.
> However this would be subject to which side up the toast fell onto the carpet and as to whether it had marmite or marmalade spread on it. 
> Equally the results are not to be relied upon as when using this law one has to factor in whatever results are forthcoming, that the law itself may have interfered with the outcome.
> On that note I am about to reach for the white coat and head for the padded cell!


Hoping for an easy cure for our collective insanity is like wishing for the toast to balance on its edge with marmite on one side and marmalade on the other. Possible, but highly unlikely. I, as have many others, have been wondering about my insanity for a long time. No conclusions forthcoming, I stopped caring.

----------


## fred

> Hoping for an easy cure for our collective insanity is like wishing for the toast to balance on its edge with marmite on one side and marmalade on the other. Possible, but highly unlikely. I, as have many others, have been wondering about my insanity for a long time. No conclusions forhcoming, I stopped caring.


You could glue the toast onto a cat's back then it could never land, it would have to hang there revolving in mid air.

----------


## JAWS

Does anybody believe that the extinction of the Dinosaurs was a disaster the Earth never recovered from? 
All that is being suggested is that we must preserve the Earth as we know it. 

All nature is doing is using us to 'wipe the slate clean' instead of using a massive asteroid so it can move on to it's next stage. 
Whatever we do, nature will eventually 'write us off' as something it tried and decided it had made a mistake. 

Humanity has the arrogant belief that it is capable of doing anything. Nature knows far better and will simply ignore our puny efforts. It will just shrug and carry on regardless. 
"It's life, but not as we know it!"

----------


## scorrie

[QUOTE=JAWS;183845
Humanity has the arrogant belief that it is capable of doing anything. [/QUOTE]

I would say that, as far as wiping out other species, raping our planet and leaving our pollution everywhere goes, Humanity is very well capable of "Doing the Business"

The planet was here before us and will be here long after we have gone but she will not be the "Blue Planet" by then and we will have contibuted to that in our own small way.

Perhaps Mankind is the "Bad Album" that Mother Earth had to get out of her system.

----------


## Saveman

Gleeber, I'm sorry....I tried to stop myself, but I couldn't.... :: 



> Hands up anyone who thinks the world hasnt changed in the last 50 years?
> Apart from a bunch of religious maniacs who want to impose their insane standards on us I say the world has become a safer place even though we have it at our fingertips to wipe out mankind.


The world is a safer place? The facts would beg to differ.
Perhaps living in Caithness you forget that we are among the fortunate few. It can't stay that way forever though....



> Since science discovered that our affluence and effluence is causing major problems to our environment we have started to do things about it. To knock it is to do nothing.


Something the Bible, almost 2000 years ago, warned man would do. It's good that science has discovered that now..... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 




> Unfortunely religious ideaoligy still permeates our everyday lives and although I  agree with Fred that religion is not necessarily the whole problem, I believe that illogical belief is at the root of the insanity this thread addresses.
> Although we all know how communism manifested itself in practice who amongst us would vote for a communist politician or be happy with schools teaching it as an alternative to our own politics of the free market? Yet, communism taught me that I am as equal as the next man.


Animal Farm anyone?




> Look at Europe. Are the bonds built up over the last 50 years a sign of insanity? I see it as a sign of hope even though that hope is severely dashed by some of the opinions expressed on this thread and other threads where nationalism is being recomended for my country. Seperation is the enemy, not insanity.


Mutual bonds of commerce. Not exactly the basis for our wholesale confidence....no pun intended




> What Jaws may call mankinds arrogance to control nature is in my opinion the very essence of being human. We have arrived here from a long evolutionary journey becuase we have taken our sustinance from nature.


Where did nature get it from? Oh yeah......everything came from nothing...I forgot.




> Its our right, not some egotistical idea that we can live on fresh air alone. We have now become aware that our environment needs help to continue to sustain us and my faith is in mans, and womans so called arrogance to create the resources to help us into the next millenium.


So we shouldn't change? Just help the environment to cope with our insatiable greed?




> Who amongst us asked to be brought into this world? When we arrive here the rules are already set. Break them or disagree with the status quo and we are in trouble.


We're already in trouble. But we have free will, we don't _have_ to conform to an obviously flawed status quo. 




> In my world there is no inherant meaning to mankinds existance. There are no Gods, no Karma....just me....and you.
> We may do insane things but NO, we are not insane.


The real world doesn't live in your world Gleeber. We reap what we sow. Call it Karma if you like or don't....but this world is on it's last legs.

----------


## canuck

> Gleeber, I'm sorry....I tried to stop myself, but I couldn't....
> 
> 
> The world is a safer place? The facts would beg to differ.
> Perhaps living in Caithness you forget that we are among the fortunate few. It can't stay that way forever though....
> 
> 
> Something the Bible, almost 2000 years ago, warned man would do. It's good that science has discovered that now.....
> 
> ...


I was almost ready to go along with you Saveman until you got to the very last phrase "... but this world is on its last legs."   On that sentiment I have to leave the Glebite and Saveman camps and agree with gleeber.  Then I began to wonder if the use of the word "world" is being understood in the same way by all of your readers.   Do you mean the world as in nature/planet or by "this world" do you mean modern civilization?   I do think that civilization as we have known it for many hundreds of years is on the verge of a dramatic change.

----------


## Saveman

> I was almost ready to go along with you Saveman until you got to the very last phrase "... but this world is on its last legs."   On that sentiment I have to leave the Glebite and Saveman camps and agree with gleeber.  Then I began to wonder if the use of the word "world" is being understood in the same way by all of your readers.   Do you mean the world as in nature/planet or by "this world" do you mean modern civilization?   I do think that civilization as we have known it for many hundreds of years is on the verge of a dramatic change.


By "this world" I mean this current system of things/worldwide administration, not the planet/nature.

----------


## canuck

> By "this world" I mean this current system of things/worldwide administration, not the planet/nature.


So we are reading from the same page.  Good.

Now, what can we do about it, at least in a way to keep the planet intact and all human life valued?

----------


## JAWS

> I would say that, as far as wiping out other species, raping our planet and leaving our pollution everywhere goes, Humanity is very well capable of "Doing the Business"
> 
> The planet was here before us and will be here long after we have gone but she will not be the "Blue Planet" by then and we will have contributed to that in our own small way.
> 
> Perhaps Mankind is the "Bad Album" that Mother Earth had to get out of her system.


It was also the Blue Planet before our arrival or that of the rise of the Mammals and will remain so after. We worry ourselves about what happens in he terms of Centuries or occasionally, very occasionally, Millennia. 
Nature carries on for millions, hundreds of millions and even billions of years. 

We think it's something special when we dig up something made by humans that's a couple of thousand years old. In a few Million years whatever passes then for a palaeontologist will be more likely to discover Hen's Teeth than anything we leave behind. 

Contrary to common belief, we are not the ultimate creation in the Universe or even on earth for that matter. 
In the Encyclopaedia of Existence we will be lucky if we warrant even a comma on some page somewhere in the middle only noticed by some petty proof-reader wondering if it really should be placed there or not. 

Ever since Humanity first started to wonder about the world around them they have been so arrogant as to place themselves at the Pinnacle of Creation or of Evolution, whichever you prefer to believe in. 
We really do think we are something special and that nothing can exist without us. 
That is why we are Certifiably Insane. Not because of what we do but because we really do believe that we are ultimate being that has ever existed and are therefore capable of doing absolutely anything. 

If it hadn't been for a quirk of fate with an asteroid we would never have existed in the first place. Life just did then what it will do again whatever we do, it will just shrug a little and say, "Yippee! A clean slate to make a fresh start on. That won't be the second time it has done that but probably the fourth or fifth that we are aware of. 
Perhaps nature has simply decided that Humanity is the very 'virus' it needs so it can end the "Mammalian Era" in order to move on to it's next stage of development.

----------


## canuck

T (time out): What does the expression "The Blue Planet" mean/refer to?

----------


## JAWS

It's the name of a UK TV Wildlife Series about life in the Oceans. It's also a Descriptive name for the Earth because that is the colour it appears to be when seen from Space. 
With or without Humanity that colour will remain until the Sun, in about four billion years, becomes a Red Giant and all the Oceans evaporate away due to Global Overheating. 

There are already people who are worrying if we will be able to develop Space Travel to an extent whereby Humanity will be able to spread to other Star Systems in order to avoid extinction when that eventually happens. 

I understand they got the idea from Humanity once suffering the risk of extinction from an excess of water rather than a lack of it but the same people will tell you that particular event never happened and was all really a myth.

----------


## gleeber

I trust those of you who this post refers to will forgive me if I dont disect your posts in the same manner as Saveman needed to with mine. I accept and respect that we have different opinions of the same shared experiences.
Glebers says that my trust and hope in mankind is childishly niave. I like that and take it as a compliment. Thanks.
Jaws uses a few hundred words for most of his posts when probably a few would do. One of his favoured words of the moment is arrogance. I refer my fellow orgers to his signature at the bottom of his posts and ask you to decide for yourselves where the arrogance really belongs.
Saveman (may your God bless you) suggests the bible may have got in first with some of humanities moral gems. Of course it did. The bible had a monopoly on human nature only because it was written by wise men who lived between 3500 years and 2000 years ago. Those wise men were also very superstitious and had no inkling of the scientific discoveries which now permeate every civilisation. Even if someone disagreed with the superstious findings of these holy men it was still wiser to keep ones mouth shut for fear of losing ones head for blasphemy.
Saveman also seems to sneer at the idea that the universe could have erupted from nothing. Science has discovered physical laws about the universe which make perfect sense unless ones mind has been corrupted by the same cultural introjections as the authors of the bible and for that matter all holy books. If I was to ask him where his God came from he would use a different set of rules, unknown to science, to suggest that God probably always has been around. 
Even though the above trio have very different perceptions than me, and to be sure, from eachother, of the fate of mankind, I find it fascinating how they project their own experiences onto the rest of us in their quest to have the rest of us declared certifyably insane.

----------


## Saveman

Gleeber, Gleeber, Gleeber.....thank you for the blessing though I think I detect a cynical tone.... :Smile: 

I'm not going to debate the Bible with you today, I doubt a debate would change anybody's mind about anything. I will confirm that I sneer at the idea that the universe can erupt from nothing. Do laws not require a law giver?

As for where God came from.....well he tells us himself that he is from eternity to eternity. Mind boggling? Yes, very....Unknown to science? Yes definitely, but so many things are.....and less implausable than everything erupting from nothing.

Projecting our own experience is surely something everyone is guilty of. In my experience man shows himself to irresponsible, selfish and just generally incapable. Wouldn't it be nice if my experience of mankind changed in the future? I'm not holding my breath.

Your post amused me as you spoke to our readers and refered to those discussing this with you only by name....very "House of Commons"   :Grin:

----------


## dozerboy

There is no doubt we are all insane and not considering what we are doing to our planet.  The way we live now is not sustainable for very much longer.  The UK will run out of land fill in 9 years time, then what?  Pollute the world more by exporting out rubbish?  Probably.

Most things it would seem we have got wrong.

The one thing we are doing properly is destroying the very planet that gave us life in the first place - so in my book that makes us insane!!

have a nice life.

----------


## JAWS

> Jaws uses a few hundred words for most of his posts when probably a few would do. One of his favoured words of the moment is arrogance. I refer my fellow orgers to his signature at the bottom of his posts and ask you to decide for yourselves where the arrogance really belongs.


You want me to use a few words, then I will. In the large scheme of things nature probably has more concern for the actions of the common earth worm than it does about Humanity. As a species we are of no consequence whatsoever, we simply won't be missed once we are gone. 
As far as the Earth is concerned we are simply a passing inconvenience which it will eventually rid itself of without a second thought. 

As for my signature, the very question this thread has posed and the support for the suggestion it has made about Humanity explains the reason for my signature. 
If that is arrogance then so be it. I have never come across an animal yet that has tried to deceive me or let me down. Can anybody say that of all people?

----------


## fred

> The real world doesn't live in your world Gleeber. We reap what we sow. Call it Karma if you like or don't....but this world is on it's last legs.


I'm wondering what would happen if one of the effects of global warming were to bring more rainfall to the Middle East, if it resulted in green fields and forrest where once there was only desert. Wouldn't that shift the power ballance of the world.




> And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.
> 
> Isaiah 30:25

----------


## Cedric Farthsbottom III

The world to me is like a book.Full of characters,sane and insane,funny,serious,half glass full,half glass empty.I think that yer honest immediate surroundings is the true meaning of life.Views have changed in ma days through personal things that have happened physically to me and mine.How can a guy like me change the world.Well I can bring ma kids up in a way that they will end up sane like their mother,or they can go the way that their father ended up a guy left in limbo not really realising what he wants out of life.Friends call me insane,I don't agree,I think I have lived a life where I have nothing to regret.I like gleebers views in that human nature has a real answer to this question.

----------


## Gleber2

> Even though the above trio have very different perceptions than me, and to be sure, from eachother, of the fate of mankind, I find it fascinating how they project their own experiences onto the rest of us in their quest to have the rest of us declared certifyably insane.


I consider this sentence to be a bit facetious. I will not argue the veracity of the statement but will say that, if it is true, where are you different?
My observations are obviously based on my experience, education and consequent thinking. I have not taken the words of other men, as you always do, to arrive at my conclusions. To base one's ideas purely on the observations of other men, whether it is the writers of the bible, the scientists who have supplied your 'proofs' or the twitterings of Freud and Jung etc, is to borrow the words of others and use them to back up your observations. My feelings about the insanity of the Human race are based purely on my own observations of the planet I live on and the humans who live on it. I am also, in fact, only concerned about the effect this insanity is having on the human race rather than the effect we are having on our own ecosystem. I am fairly sure that the planet can survive the human race but in what kind of state?
Saveman, surely eternity, by virtue of the meaning of the word, must last forever? How then, can we go from eternity to eternity?

----------


## Saveman

> <snip>Saveman, surely eternity, by virtue of the meaning of the word, must last forever? How then, can we go from eternity to eternity?



Having no beginning and having no end. Always existing. Having existed eternally in the past and will exist eternally into the future. 
Humans can't because they had a beginning.

----------


## Cedric Farthsbottom III

> Having no beginning and having no end. Always existing. Having existed eternally in the past and will exist eternally into the future. 
> Humans can't because they had a beginning.


But surely nature will treat humans like any other species,the strongest of the fittest.Those that could give up the technology and comforts and go back to living to the way nature intended us.So humans haven't an ending.Not yet.

----------


## Gleber2

> Having no beginning and having no end. Always existing. Having existed eternally in the past and will exist eternally into the future. 
> Humans can't because they had a beginning.


What has had no beginning and no end? The universe? Science would expostulate otherwise and Christians claim that God made it. We play with words, Saveman, do we not?
You need to clarify for this brain dead old hippy who has the audacity to believe in kharma. :Smile:

----------


## Saveman

> What has had no beginning and no end? The universe? Science would expostulate otherwise and Christians claim that God made it. We play with words, Saveman, do we not?
> You need to clarify for this brain dead old hippy who has the audacity to believe in kharma.


LOL! It wasn't my intention to play with words. I was speaking about God. He has had no beginning and he will have no end....according to the Bible...  :Smile:

----------


## Cedric Farthsbottom III

Two wee cavemen were sittin in a field.One says to the other what a wonderful world oor God made.The other was staring up at the stars and says this wonderful universe that it made by itself.They both go off and have families and bring them up in their views.Voila,c'est la vie.Whatever one is true,they both have their values.Insanity makes ye see strange things,to see a nothingness become a universe.Was it God,the universe itself,its been a good pub arguement over the years,I go with natural making.I think its so powerful that it gives you a sore heid thinkin aboot it.

----------


## Gleber2

> .I think its so powerful that it gives you a sore heid thinkin aboot it.


No the only thing tae gie ye a sair heed, eh? :Smile:

----------


## JAWS

> Even though the above trio have very different perceptions than me, and to be sure, from eachother, of the fate of mankind, I find it fascinating how they project their own experiences onto the rest of us in their quest to have the rest of us declared certifyably insane.


Sorry, I missed that part earlier. 
I don't recall 'projecting' any of my experiences, or even mentioning them in this thread. Even I would stop at claiming I had 'experience' of large scale Extinction Events which happened millions of years ago. 

Check my posts, carefully or otherwise, and you will see that I am not the one trying to say anybody should be "declared certifiably insane" 

Humanity has always placed itself at the centre of things, at the pinnacle of Creation/Evolution. Until a few centuries ago Humanity lived in the certainty that the Earth was placed at the Centre of the Universe. 
The Earth, and Humanity along with it, have been slowly and reluctantly pushed further and further from that lofty position. 
Only recently have scientists been able to discuss openly the concept of even the possibility of there being Intelligent Life somewhere else in the whole Universe and, even amongst them, there are those who dispute the possibility. 

Humanity is not insane, it is simply, just like any other kind of life, doing its incompetent best to survive and, like many species before it. not making a very good job of it.

----------


## canuck

> Just over a year ago I posted my first thread on this Forum where I expostulated that the Human Race is certifiably insane. One year down the line and I am more certain than ever that we are crazy....
> 
> ...Is all hope gone, or is there a vestige of sanity left in this barren race which seems hellbent on self-destruction?
> 
> ...We get too fat when the other half starve to death.
> 
> ...Our eco-system is going crazy 
> 
> ....Yes, in my opinion, the human race is collectively insane.


I remember that first thread of yours. 

It was at a time when I was wondering about my own future and was drawn to seek a regeneration of my spirit by exploring my memories of my wonderful days in Caithness. 

I started reading the org threads again. I even got up the courage to respond to one terrifying sounding Gleber2 who had come up with some outrageous statement that I could not let pass. 

G2 I appreciate your post on the theme "one year later" because for me it has called to mind some fabulous memories of this past year. 

Now to the issue of insanity... I have a colleague friend who frequently reminds us of some quote he read in which insanity was defined as repeating the same thing over and over expecting to get a different result. As I read the responses to your original post on this thread I wondered if we may have proven the point. One of the things I began to notice last year was that thread themes were repeating themselves from what I remembered from the year before. (That happens when you have been a user for a few years and I am about to start my fourth cycle of org conversations.) Of course the word org is new, so something did change this past repetition. Thank you Saveman for that. 

In reading this year's version of the "impending death of the world" column I was realizing that I could have written many of the responses myself because I have come to know the entrenchments of the posters. _Repetition with nothing changing_. Are we expecting something to change? I wonder. And if we are, is there thus some insanity there? If we are not expecting any ideological movement then maybe no insanity exists. Well, I do expect something to change because I believe that we can learn from one another, can alter our visions just enough to see an alternative that just might work. So maybe in my constant hopefulness there is some insanity because I keep expecting the outcome to be different.

In this orgument, which we have had about 5 times in the past 12 months, I have always raised the hopeful flag. And I continue to do so. I also always ask the question in some form or another, what can we do? Okay G2 I know that you write music and now I have heard it. Perhaps you have done your bit. But that music needs to be heard so you are not finished yet.

The fact that people read these discussion threads suggests to me that they do care about the world and want to see if we have discovered a cure for all that harms us. I guess that some of us are insane. But to me, in this case, insanity is a good thing.

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## Gleber2

Canuck, I started this thread because, one year on, my opinions have not changed and the world has become a crazier place in that time. I can hypothesise on the outcome of our collective insanity but that is not really the issue. I accuse no individual of being insane but suggest that we, as an entity, are going into the sort of decadence which has been the downfall of most civilisations to date. I see no sign of change and feel that time is running out. I agree with Jaws insofar that I don't see us as being the crown of creation but a failed experiment that never lived up to its potential. Whether the planet will survive our possible downfall or not is, due to our level of scientific and engineering advancement, debatable. We have the ability to destroy the planet entirely. Let's hope we disappear before we do.

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## Rheghead

> my opinions have not changed.


Does that mean just your opinion that the world is crazy has not changed or has your opinion not changed about any of the subjects that have cropped up on the org over the last year???

One I can believe, the other I find incredible.

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## Rheghead

> LOL! It wasn't my intention to play with words. I was speaking about God. He has had no beginning and he will have no end....according to the Bible...


Well iyo is the case  :Grin:

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## Gleber2

> Does that mean just your opinion that the world is crazy has not changed or has your opinion not changed about any of the subjects that have cropped up on the org over the last year???
> 
> One I can believe, the other I find incredible.


My opinion of the human race has changed insofar that, if anything, the problem has advanced somewhat. I have changed a few opinions over the last year but I am not sure if the Org has done much to change them.

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## gleeber

Gleber. Are you seriously trying to suggest that your observations are not effected by your experiences? You are you know! Thats insane and adds ammunition to my point that the insanity you lay on the human race is in fact your own unowned insanity.
No mans an island. Oops, there I go again stealing someone elses twitterings.
Jaws. Come out from behind that curtain and stop mumbling man.
Saveman. Amen.

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## gleeber

One other thing. For those of you babbling on about poor old nature, and when i talk about nature I include you and me as well as wind and rain and volcanos and lions and spring and summer.  We are not seperate from nature, we are in it to the neck.
 Non of us asked to be here but now we are I suggest we have every right to do with it as we must to suit our own remarkable little lives.
We have every right to fight it and use it and abuse it as well as love it.
Thank Savemans God for giving us the powers and the consciousness to do something about poor little nature and it's tsunamis and earthquakes and humanitarianism.
Without us there would be wolves and bears running around in Dunnet forset.
You widna be so happy then. Would you Jaws?  :Wink:

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## Saveman

Ok, so when do we start resorting to personal insults? Is now ok?

Gleeber.....you're like JJC on acid. :Wink: 

(sorry all you post-2005 orgers, it's an in-joke)

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## Gleber2

> Ok, so when do we start resorting to personal insults? Is now ok?
> 
> Gleeber.....you're like JJC on acid.
> 
> (sorry all you post-2005 orgers, it's an in-joke)


Aye man, he's losing the plot. I think he partaking of the Michael as I can't imagine that he would utter such tripe seriously. Jjc was the voice of reason in comparison and I wouldn't sully his memory with such statements. ::   ::

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## gleeber

Nope, no acid being taken here.
My thesis is pretty straight forward. Glebers idea that the world is insane comes from some unconscious concern deep in his own personality that he may be insane. He suggested that somewhere earlier in this thread. He than projects that rogue idea onto the rest of us and what originated as a conflict in his own personality has now found a more suitable home in the outside world. Its a bit like being sick. When we are sick we spew up the offending material. Projection is a sort of psychological spewing out. Its simple really.
The same applies to the idea of a benevolant God. Its a throwback to childhood and a childs need for security. Its a wonderful idea that some omnipresent daddy may be watching over my every move.  
My own hope lies in the box opened by Freud, Freud was another doomonger who would have found a comfort in some of the ideas branded here. However the box he opened is still being emptied and thats where my hope for mankind  lies.
I seem to recall it was this corresponding thread last year that saw the demise of jjc. I miss him and if he is still checking out the org I would urge him to rejoin.

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## Gleber2

> Nope, no acid being taken here.
> My thesis is pretty straight forward. Glebers idea that the world is insane comes from some unconscious concern deep in his own personality that he may be insane. He suggested that somewhere earlier in this thread. He than projects that rogue idea onto the rest of us and what originated as a conflict in his own personality has now found a more suitable home in the outside world. Its a bit like being sick. When we are sick we spew up the offending material. Projection is a sort of psychological spewing out. Its simple really.
> The same applies to the idea of a benevolant God. Its a throwback to childhood and a childs need for security. Its a wonderful idea that some omnipresent daddy may be watching over my every move. 
> My own hope lies in the box opened by Freud, Freud was another doomonger who would have found a comfort in some of the ideas branded here. However the box he opened is still being emptied and thats where my hope for mankind lies.
> I seem to recall it was this corresponding thread last year that saw the demise of jjc. I miss him and if he is still checking out the org I would urge him to rejoin.


Unproven claptrap!!!!I thought you only called upon scientifically proven points to illustrate your hidebound ideas.

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## gleeber

> Unproven claptrap!!!!I thought you only called upon scientifically proven points to illustrate your hidebound ideas.


Interestingly projection is pretty much accepted in academic circles as an unconscious human mechanism. It was one of Freuds discoveries and although some of Freuds work may now be discredited by modern research methods projection is not one of them.
Human beings are always projecting their innermost thoughts out into the world. Its a normal human mechanism and not always unhealthy.
However when projection becomes unhealthy it can become a problem.  Stalkers for example are displaying unhealthy projective tendancies when they cannot accept that the target of their desires do not want to know them. They have already projected their own unowned desires onto the victim and once that happens there is no turning back.
Now I am not saying that Glebers projected insanity is pathological but in defence of Glebers claims that we are all insane I offer it as an alternative.
Although most of the subscribers to this thread seem to agree with Gleber, and even though i know the human race does insane things, it is my position that we are not only sane but capable of the most wonderful innovations which ultimately will result in some peace for the human race.
Part of that process will be in understanding ourselves and not some holy book or some fanciful ideas from glebers itinerary of philosophical gems.

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## Gleber2

> Interestingly projection is pretty much accepted in academic circles as an unconscious human mechanism. It was one of Freuds discoveries and although some of Freuds work may now be discredited by modern research methods projection is not one of them.
> Human beings are always projecting their innermost thoughts out into the world. Its a normal human mechanism and not always unhealthy.
> However when projection becomes unhealthy it can become a problem. Stalkers for example are displaying unhealthy projective tendancies when they cannot accept that the target of their desires do not want to know them. They have already projected their own unowned desires onto the victim and once that happens there is no turning back.
> Now I am not saying that Glebers projected insanity is pathological but in defence of Glebers claims that we are all insane I offer it as an alternative.
> Although most of the subscribers to this thread seem to agree with Gleber, and even though i know the human race does insane things, it is my position that we are not only sane but capable of the most wonderful innovations which ultimately will result in some peace for the human race.
> Part of that process will be in understanding ourselves and not some holy book or some fanciful ideas from glebers itinerary of philosophical gems.


When a body has cancer, it lives until there are too many infected cells and then it dies. The human race has always had its share of nutters but now there are too many  and the balance, in my opinion, is tilting in favour of the not so sane. The human effect on our reality shows more and more signs of insanity than ever before because there are altogether too many of us crossing the line..
My "philosophical gems" as you so insultingly call them, come from my own rather strange life and what I have learned from the living of it, not from Frantic Freud or anyone else for that matter. More than can be said for your cliche-riddled cant gleaned from the writers of books of sparkling second hand wisdom. Call upon and quote your chosen teachers as often as you want but it will always be second-hand words.

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## canuck

> ... it is my position that we are not only sane but capable of the most wonderful innovations which ultimately will result in some peace for the human race.
> Part of that process will be in understanding ourselves and not some holy book or some fanciful ideas from glebers itinerary of philosophical gems.


Or: Part of the process will be understanding the holy book and not just focussing on the fanciful self and the ideas of the philosophical gems.

Or: Maybe a combination of all three with a little dose of the geochronology that brings in the dinosaurs.  

As an experiment in peace is there a way to put aside the verbal weaponry and look for a way to use all this great knowledge to build a creative environment and have a problem solving discussion.

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## fred

> As an experiment in peace is there a way to put aside the verbal weaponry and look for a way to use all this great knowledge to build a creative environment and have a problem solving discussion.


When children in the schoolyard play at earthquake victims and aidworkers not cowboys and indians that day may come.

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## canuck

> When children in the schoolyard play at earthquake victims and aidworkers not cowboys and indians that day may come.


The caithness.org website continues to be a great source of information for me.  I had no idea that UK children played Cowboys and Indians.  It was a normal school yard activity for us in North America, but not something I ever realized jumped the pond.

As to my experience as a parent, and there is an element of personal experience in this thread, we kept toy guns out of the toy options for our son.  After a while we discovered that he was pretend shooting with a screwdriver.   Then it became the household rule that one could not pretend shoot at people or animals.  (That rule stuck.)   So the living room chairs got well shot up, but like those cartoon characters were ready for another adventure once the commercial was finished.  Then one year his almost pacifist great-grandparents gave him a GI Joe set.   Our resolve was pretty much destroyed.   However, the grown child is now a political activist/aid-worker, so something else of influence was also happening in his life. 

Still I think the point is well taken that violence begets violence and the cycle will continue unless another option is made available and given some affirmation by those who have credibility in the lives of our world's children.

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## fred

> The caithness.org website continues to be a great source of information for me.  I had no idea that UK children played Cowboys and Indians.  It was a normal school yard activity for us in North America, but not something I ever realized jumped the pond.


Well they certainly did when I was at school.

Banning kids from playing cowboys and indians isn't the answer, we played cowboys and indians for the same reason kids in America did, we were brainwashed by John Wayne as well, fed a false reality. Then we grew up and continued to be fed the same false reality, same us and them, same black and white.

Truth is the answer, I think it says that in them books that were written a few thousand years ago but still no one is listening. Just tell the kids who the real heros are and the world will be a far better place but first we have to get the adults to believe it when they just don't want to. Tell the kids what the whiteman did to the Native American is called ethnic clensing and tell them nothing has changed, we'd do it again tomorrow just so long as we can believe we wear white hats and ride tall in the saddle.

Insane we are, we live in a fantasy world as devoid of reality as that school playground, mad as hatters.

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## Cedric Farthsbottom III

I must be insane,I think I am.There must have been a generation jump somewhere.Either that or I didnae watch the right movies.The game in ma childhood was the British versus the Jerry's.We would roam around the schemes of ma home town wi branches off tree's.Look around every corner to make sure ye werenae shootin one o' yer own crew.This was a part o' growin up,funny at the end of the day how oot o' the twelve boys that 3 of them ended up in later life fighting for their country,doing in reality what we had been doing in a kids game.Its a funny auld insane world.

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## fred

> I must be insane,I think I am.There must have been a generation jump somewhere.Either that or I didnae watch the right movies.The game in ma childhood was the British versus the Jerry's.We would roam around the schemes of ma home town wi branches off tree's.Look around every corner to make sure ye werenae shootin one o' yer own crew.This was a part o' growin up,funny at the end of the day how oot o' the twelve boys that 3 of them ended up in later life fighting for their country,doing in reality what we had been doing in a kids game.Its a funny auld insane world.


I'm reminded of the tale about a man who gets a flat tyre, he gets the spare out and takes the wheel off putting the wheel nuts in the hub cap. While putting the spare on he steps on the edge of the hub cap and the nuts roll down a grate. At first he panicks and then he decides he's going to have to go and find a phone box and ring a garage to come out and help him. Then a voice behind him says "just take one nut off each of the other three wheels and use them, three nuts on each wheel will be plenty for you to drive slowly to the next town where there is a scrapyard which will sell you some more nuts for a few pennies".

The man looks round and sees he's stopped outside a Lunatic Asylum so he says to the chap who just helped him "are you a doctor?", "no" says the chap "I'm an inmate". The man looks surprised and says "but I'd never have thought of doing that" and the chap says "I'm insane...not stupid".

Maybe the world isn't insane, maybe the world is just plain stupid, maybe the people we lock away behind bars in institutions are the people who see the world as it really is and what is classed as sane are the people who insist on believing in an impossible illogical world.


M.C. Escher

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