# General > Politics >  Boris Johnson

## Shabbychic

Having read that Boris Johnson is now in ICU due to coronavirus, I wish him and everyone else who has this illness, a speedy recovery. I may not particularly like the man or his policies, but I do not wish this illness on anyone, so wish him well.


I have been disgusted by many comments I have read online about his present situation, and am saddened that fellow human beings can sink so low.

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## Fulmar

I agree, wholeheartedly. Thankfully, I haven't seen the comments. My heart absolutely goes out to everyone affected and their families- it's all so utterly horrendous and beyond words really.

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## Goodfellers

'Borrowed ' from a different platform.

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## Oddquine

> Having read that Boris Johnson is now in ICU due to coronavirus, I wish him and everyone else who has this illness, a speedy recovery. I may not particularly like the man or his policies, but I do not wish this illness on anyone, so wish him well.
> 
> 
> I have been disgusted by many comments I have read online about his present situation, and am saddened that fellow human beings can sink so low.


He is suffering the consequences of his actions (or inactions), but not suffering as much as those people who have caught coronavirus and had no access to an ICU bed and a ventilator _as a precaution_, and died as a result....or suffering as much as the families of the  health workers who have died from coronavirus because of the lack of PPE equipment.  

 I hope he recovers....but I have not one iota of sympathy for him....and would rather smack him than clap him.

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## Shabbychic

> He is suffering the consequences of his actions (or inactions), but not suffering as much as those people who have caught coronavirus and had no access to an ICU bed and a ventilator _as a precaution_, and died as a result....or suffering as much as the families of the  health workers who have died from coronavirus because of the lack of PPE equipment.  
> 
>  I hope he recovers....but I have not one iota of sympathy for him....and would rather smack him than clap him.



Oh, please don't read too much into my intentions. My post was never about clapping or patting on the back. I honestly believe he and his team have handled this whole situation appallingly, and continue to do so. Throughout it all, they still put profit and Cronyism above the health, safety and financial security of the people at large, and are still lying to us daily. There is also so much more, quietly going on behind the scenes at the moment, which infuriates me......but that is for another day.


So no, my post was never really about sympathy, I was merely attempting to show that not everyone who detests the Tories wishes his demise.

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## Shabbychic

Well, I never thought I would agree with much I heard on the BBC, but *watch this*.

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## aqua

Emily Maitlis has been my most respected TV journalist/presenter for a long time. 

I too wish Boris a speedy recovery, for all the same reasons as Shabbychic and Fulmar.

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## Oddquine

Have to laugh when folk go on about Nicola and the SNP being cultish...they have *nothing* on the cult of Boris. It is as irrational as the cult of trump in the USA. I see there is a crowdfunder been set up for £1000 to buy him a pair of Purdey sterling silver duelling cufflinks wirh a personal message saying "thank you". Thank you for exactly WHAT, I wonder...it's certainly not for being a half decent prime minister for the UK?

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## aqua

I was pleased to hear Boris is out of intensive care. 

I wonder how his experience will effect his approach to his job. I hope he will take a more diligent approach to detail and stop surrounding himself with human mirrors. How about a national government at Westminster?

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## Gronnuck

I am happy that Boris is out of intensive care and on his way to recovery.  I wouldn’t wish this illness on anyone.  I hope that his experience will help him and his colleagues reflect on his tory government’s treatment of the NHS and the fact that in 2017 they rejected a pay raise for nurses and other emergency service staff.
I also hope that this crisis will give this tory government an opportunity to re-asses Priti Patel’s value and description of ‘low-skilled’ workers.  It is these workers that are at the front line in this fight to keep us all safe while the hedge fund managers cower in their mansions.  Yet I fear since arrogance and hypocrisy are embedded in conservative DNA, I doubt there will be any significant change, anytime soon.

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## Fulmar

I have a bit more hope of change as outlined by Gronnuck and surely, it should now start with Boris- but have to say that most probably don't agree. Maybe though it is up to us to insist on change. I believe that the new leader of the Labour party will be saying it at every opportunity and this time, he will be listened to and the message less easily rubbished and dismissed and that can't be a bad thing.

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## aqua

Its good that we can all agree on something for once! Well, nearly all. 

Amazingly, we are discussing Boris and agreeing! This wont last.  :Smile:

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## Oddquine

> It’s good that we can all agree on something for once! Well, nearly all. 
> 
> Amazingly, we are discussing Boris and agreeing! This won’t last.


Be fair..I#m not saying I don't want him to recover...I just don't see why he should get a better chance of recovering in an NHS hospital than any other peron in the UK with the virus gets.

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## aqua

> I am happy that Boris is out of intensive care and on his way to recovery.  I wouldn’t wish this illness on anyone.  I hope that his experience will help him and his colleagues reflect on his tory government’s treatment of the NHS and the fact that in 2017 they rejected a pay raise for nurses and other emergency service staff.
> I also hope that this crisis will give this tory government an opportunity to re-asses Priti Patel’s value and description of ‘low-skilled’ workers.  It is these workers that are at the front line in this fight to keep us all safe while the hedge fund managers cower in their mansions.  Yet I fear since arrogance and hypocrisy are embedded in conservative DNA, I doubt there will be any significant change, anytime soon.


Priti Patel is one of the most cold hearted cabinet ministers I can recall in my lifetime. I doubt she’ll ever change.

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## Corky Smeek

> I believe that the new leader of the Labour party will be saying it at every opportunity and this time, he will be listened to and the message less easily rubbished and dismissed and that can't be a bad thing.


I don't share your optimism re SirKS. Did you happen to view the John Pilger video I linked to in the Coronavirus thread? Labour have been almost as complicit as the Tories in the dismantling of the NHS in England according to JP.  For all that I admire him he was just talking about the English NHS. I will give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he knows that there are 4 distinct NHS organisations in the UK and that he just chose to talk about the biggest. Fortunately, the day to day running of the Scottish NHS is not in the hands of the Tories or Labour.

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## aqua

> I have a bit more hope of change as outlined by Gronnuck and surely, it should now start with Boris- but have to say that most probably don't agree. Maybe though it is up to us to insist on change. I believe that the new leader of the Labour party will be saying it at every opportunity and this time, he will be listened to and the message less easily rubbished and dismissed and that can't be a bad thing.


As you may have picked up already, I’m a big fan of Keir Starmer. He is one of the few non-Corbynista senior Labour politicians who worked with Corbyn, stuck it out, and enhanced his reputation in the process. Neither Corbyn nor Ed Miliband had that ‘something’ that would convince voters they were potential prime ministers. Keir Starmer has the forensic lawyerly skills to pick away at Boris’s sloppy way of dealing with everything and everyone. He’s chosen a balanced team of ministers, now he has to hold Boris to account and convince the voters he can lead the country. 

I wonder what his approach to Scotland will be.

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## aqua

> I don't share your optimism re SirKS. Did you happen to view the John Pilger video I linked to in the Coronavirus thread? Labour have been almost as complicit as the Tories in the dismantling of the NHS in England according to JP.  For all that I admire him he was just talking about the English NHS. I will give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he knows that there are 4 distinct NHS organisations in the UK and that he just chose to talk about the biggest. Fortunately, the day to day running of the Scottish NHS is not in the hands of the Tories or Labour.


Ouch! Maybe I should have watched the JP video before making my previous post. I will do so later and reconsider if necessary.

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## Corky Smeek

> Ouch! Maybe I should have watched the JP video before making my previous post. I will do so later and reconsider if necessary.


It wasn't criticising SirKS. He was just saying that Labour bore a fair bit of the blame for what has happened in England.

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## aqua

Ok, Ive watched the video. Pilger does indeed put some of the blame on Labour. 

His criticism of the Imperial paper from last month is weak. The prediction of 250,000 deaths was in the do nothing scenario, the prediction of 20,000 deaths was in the social distancing and/or lockdown scenario. I forget the details of the latter. Right now, the lower number looks overly optimistic, which is what I concluded at the time.  :Frown:

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## Fulmar

Boris has made a good start, saying rightly that he owes his life to the NHS and staff at St Thomas's and thanking them. To be expected, I know, so only time will tell how much of a change the experience has wrought in him.

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## Oddquine

> Boris has made a good start, saying rightly that he owes his life to the NHS and staff at St Thomas's and thanking them. To be expected, I know, so only time will tell how much of a change the experience has wrought in him.


That wasn't a good start.....he hasn't had one of them at all yet, that was damage limitation...too little, too late.   Weasel words don't provide ventilators, or PPE for NHS workers and others who require them because they can't  closet themselves at home...or bring anyone who didn't NEED to die back to life

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## Fulmar

What would you rather then? That he went around saying that he had 'battled it' and got better because he is 'strong' or some such rubbish? I have not ever been a supporter of Boris or the Tories but am prepared to give him a chance to do better now, having been through what, for any and all of us, would be a a life changing experience. There was always gong to be a loss of life in this country (and sadly, half of those on ventilators have died), as there has been in Scotland too from Covid-19 as this has arisen out of the stupidity of the whole world and is not, actually, the sole fault of Boris and the Tories.

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## aqua

Agreed. Now lets wait and see what Boris does differently from now on.

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## Corky Smeek

> Agreed. Now let’s wait and see what Boris does differently from now on.


Nothing at all I suspect, except perhaps loads of promises and pledges that will go unfulfilled.  Economics will always trump politics and the free market will dictate as it always does. All the proposed good deeds will disappear like snow off a dyke if it's going to cost money particularly with the economic impact of Covid19 still to be fully appreciated.

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## Fulmar

The shut down/collapse in the economy has, can and will cause deaths too.

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## Corky Smeek

> The shut down/collapse in the economy has, can and will cause deaths too.


But it will disproportionately affect the poorer folk in the country emphasising once more that we are not all in this together.

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## aqua

> Nothing at all I suspect, except perhaps loads of promises and pledges that will go unfulfilled.  Economics will always trump politics and the free market will dictate as it always does. All the proposed good deeds will disappear like snow off a dyke if it's going to cost money particularly with the economic impact of Covid19 still to be fully appreciated.


Id like to be a bit more optimistic, but youre probably right...

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## Alrock

> The shut down/collapse in the economy has, can and will cause deaths too.


Once again the numbers will be dictated by how well the Goverment manage the situation.

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## Oddquine

> What would you rather then? That he went around saying that he had 'battled it' and got better because he is 'strong' or some such rubbish? I have not ever been a supporter of Boris or the Tories but am prepared to give him a chance to do better now, having been through what, for any and all of us, would be a a life changing experience. There was always gong to be a loss of life in this country (and sadly, half of those on ventilators have died), as there has been in Scotland too from Covid-19 as this has arisen out of the stupidity of the whole world and is not, actually, the sole fault of Boris and the Tories.


HE doesn't need to say he "battled it" or "got better because he was strong", his Tory sycophants and the Boris fan-club in the country say it for him, ad nauseam. 

He could apologise for the Tories ignoring the 2016 pandemic simulation report when they could have been gradually building up stocks of essential equipment (or giving the NHS enough money to do so)...and he could apologise for initially, and for too long, putting the health of the economy ahead of the health of the population.  

I don't think Boris Johnson will change...I don't think he'll even get round to being up-front about the actual numbers of deaths outside hospitals in the UK due to coronavirus...far less do anything to get the likes of PPE for those at the coronavirus coal-face, be that current medical staff, carers, etc still expected to go to work, retired emercency service personnel returning to help at this time, or the volunteers who have registered to help. Heck, with people having to go out to work in essential services, and calling on volunteers to help,without providing adequate protection, he is still pursuing the original "herd immunity" plan, even if under another name.

I won't be holding my breath waiting for Boris to have a "road to damascus moment".

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## dc1

i did know there were so many experts on the org i am sure nicola will be calling you for advise soon.

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## aqua

Unfortunately, we are experts relative to most people who work in the media and in politics. How often have you seen the media and politicians announcing the bleeding obvious several weeks after weve come to the same conclusions here?

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## Oddquine

> i did know there were so many experts on the org i am sure nicola will be calling you for advise soon.


You don't have to be an expert to recognise the difference between competence and incompetence.  You don't have to be an expert to recognise the difference between a known and proven liar, who gets called a hero by his supporters because he managed to "beat" the coronavirus he caught because he didn't stick to his own rules, with the help of an ICU bed and a handy ventilator "in case" he needed one......and a real hero who worked in a hospital/care home/other essential services  without any/adequate PPE, caught coronavirus and died.  

Despite what the media and his supporters say, Boris didn't "take one for the team", unless they mean the team of brain-dead Tory sycophants...the ones who have genuinely taken it "for the team" of the general population are the dead doctors, nurses, care workers etc who are no longer with us to get clapped for at 8pm, or have chinese lanterns floated for them, because that is all they are worth to our society, it seems...they certainly don't appear to be worth infection prevention equipment or a decent pay.

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## Corky Smeek

Wow. I think that must be what they mean when someone says, "giving it both barrels". Brilliantly done.

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## Fulmar

I have someone very dear and close to me, a nurse on the front line in London who was self isolating last week due to very mild symptoms (thinks she probably got it on London transport not on the ward) but now back at work this week- and she is doing her job because she wants to help and knows that she can.

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## dc1

so depressing on here and by the way i have never voted tory in my life and am 75 years of age

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## Fulmar

Tell me this Oddquine. Firstly, in your view, have all the doctors and nurses who have died in China, Europe and throughout the world all died due to lack of PPE? Secondly, are their deaths also somehow attributable and traceable back to Boris and the Tories?

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## Oddquine

> I have someone very dear and close to me, a nurse on the front line in London who was self isolating last week due to very mild symptoms (thinks she probably got it on London transport not on the ward) but now back at work this week- and she is doing her job because she wants to help and knows that she can.


And you don't think she, and others like her, deserves adequate protection for doing that job, despite her personal reasons for doing it (bearing in mind we don't yet know if catching coronavirus and recovering from it gives immunity to future infection)? If she _probably_ got it on London Transport, does that not signal a blatant failure by the authorities regarding practising what the Government  preaches, and an equally blatant failure by the Government for leaving local government bodies free to decide when/if/how they respond to the lockdown? We have all seen photos of the likes of the tube which seemingly has cut trains, so packing more people into fewer carriages.....and we have all seen photos of people arriving in airports from elsewhere in the world with no attempt made to quarantine or test them...and where I am, we still have the MOD carting people from elsewhere in the UK to perform non-essential maintenance on bases. One rule for us, it seems..and another one for anything connected to the Government. 

I was interested in the release of the stockpile of PPE equipment to English care homes and domiciliary care providers. Given that the first confirmed cororonavirus sufferer arrived in the UK in late January and was confirmed in February, why was there still a stockpile of PPE equipment  from PHE available for sale/distribution half way through April? Should that not have been brought out _much_ sooner...and then maybe Scottish and Welsh Care homes etc would have been able to buy enough PPE supplies to protect those who needed protection?  As someone with three grandchildren, who all have young families, working in the care sector in Scotland, I wonder how much the stockpiling by PHE contributed to the shortage of necessary protective equipment in the months between February and April in all areas of essential services in the whole UK...and the cynic in me wonders how much of this stockpiled equipment originated as a donation by the likes of Turkey and were meant for the UK  and not for England only. 

Better Together? A nation of equals? Aye, right!

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## Oddquine

> Tell me this Oddquine. Firstly, in your view, have all the doctors and nurses who have died in China, Europe and throughout the world all died due to lack of PPE? Secondly, are their deaths also somehow attributable and traceable back to Boris and the Tories?


I don't know...do you?  You are trying to deflect...of course those deaths in other countries have nothing to do with Boris and the Tories.   

BUT Boris and the Tories could SEE what was happening in the rest of the world. They KNEW what was working and what was not by the time we got our first case in the UK in January/February....and they sat on their hands. with their thumbs up their back passages and did NOTHING of use or ornament until 23rd March, ten days after the likes of Spain and Italy instituted a lockdown...and even then the UK one was half-hearted and not a strict lockdown.  The 1,708 deaths in the UK to date are a result of Boris and company, despite the evidence from elsewhere in the world, trying to do it the cheap way, the way which would have the least bad effect on the economy, by letting the virus run riot if it wanted. Everything the UK Government has done has been too little and/or too late...so of course they have to take some measure of blame for  unneccesary deaths...particularly those deaths within the NHS and care sector which were as a result of inadequate PPE. It is just luck, it seems to me that people in hospital for other reasons have not caught coronavirus there, given that testing of staff is not a priority despite the virus being symptomless in the earliest days.

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## Corky Smeek

A timeline of events in the UK in the lead up to the pandemic.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...302012418.html

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## Oddquine

And it makes for really depressing reading!  A tale of incompetence, ignorance and arrogance.

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## Goodfellers

Did the Scottish government fare any better in all of this?

Every government will learn from this hopefully, once in a life time event. Not sure why people want to try and score 'cheap' political points over this worldwide chaos.. Not many governments will be able to say they would handle it exactly the same if it happened again.

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## Fulmar

I agree. It achieves absolutely nothing in my view. We absolutely do need to pull together to get through this and the complexities of it are ongoing.

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## Corky Smeek

> We absolutely do need to pull together to get through this and the complexities of it are ongoing.


If only HMG also agreed with that sentiment.

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## Fulmar

Nicola Sturgeon giving an excellent interview on radio 4 this morning, stressing the absolute need for co-operation within the UK and throughout the world right now and need for consistency. As she says 'the virus has no borders and all are trying to do their very best'. Also, that it party politics is the last thing on her mind right now and she is being guided by all scientific advice. Good for her.

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## Oddquine

> Nicola Sturgeon giving an excellent interview on radio 4 this morning, stressing the absolute need for co-operation within the UK and throughout the world right now and need for consistency. As she says 'the virus has no borders and all are trying to do their very best'. Also, that it party politics is the last thing on her mind right now and she is being guided by all scientific advice. Good for her.


How can you remove party politics from a situation which has been dealt with in the UK, from the outset, as a political exercise?  

Pulling together doesn't mean agreeing uncritically/slavishly with every action and utterance of Governments. Pulling together means not doing things which put other people, and yourself, at risk. Pulling together means obeying the lockdown to the letter, regardless of your own opinion as to the level of restriction that suits you best and which bits of it you can happily ignore.  The devolved assemblies/governments are pulling together, but locking down your individual physical body doesn't require locking down your mind....after all that's the only part of you which is free to roam and posting opinions/facts on forums/FB etc is the only socially distant method of doing so.  

Cooperation needs more than one person/government to do it...and the one thing I have noticed about our UK Government is that cooperation is not a word with which they appear comfortable, not even cooperation with all the legislatures of the countries within this Union, far less with countries in the EU and wordwide. Where was the cooperation in the years between 2016 and the outbreak of coronavirus in order to respond to the damning indictment in the report of the UK's preparedness to deal with a pandemic?   Where was the cooperation in the Westminster decision to refuse to take part in the EU bulk-buying of medical equipment?  Where was the cooperation with the parts of the UK outside England when Westminster decided its first priority was to protect the economy, and not the population, by relying on "herd immunity"...the same tactic as was used during the days of the Black Death and the Spanish Flu?   

After the Spanish Flu, the consensus was that the Government did too little, too late, with the result that a quarter of a million people died......and in the hundred years since then...the UK Government has learned nothing. The Joint Ministerial Committee set up at devolution to act as a focus  for the coordination of the relationships between the administrations is  just a joke. 

Cooperation, as far as Westminster is concerned, means doing as Westminster tells you.

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## Fulmar

''After the Spanish Flu, the consensus was that the Government did too little, too late, with the result that a quarter of a million people died......and in the hundred years since then''

Oh my goodness, the Spanish flu pandemic after the First World War is now Boris and the Tories' fault too!
Just quoting your dear leader this morning, that was all. No doubt if you were Fm, you would be doing and saying it differently.

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## dc1

fulmar some on here have one track minds .I dont like Nicolas politics but I think she is doing a good job just as I think the uk government are as well

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## Oddquine

> ''After the Spanish Flu, the consensus was that the Government did too little, too late, with the result that a quarter of a million people died......and in the hundred years since then''
> 
> Oh my goodness, the Spanish flu pandemic after the First World War is now Boris and the Tories' fault too!
> Just quoting your dear leader this morning, that was all. No doubt if you were Fm, you would be doing and saying it differently.


That first sentence is utter pointless codswallop. 

I'd have said exactly the same as she did...that is called diplomacy at a time when you don't want the four governments at each other's throats..... and she is not my dear leader...I don't do putting people on pedestals and proclaiming them deities, regardless of their political leanings. I am not a Nicola Sturgeon fan, and don't think she walks on water, though I do think she is reasonably competent...but given she IS FM, she is your dear leader as well, is she not, or don't you live in Scotland? 

I have to acknowledge, much as it irritates me to do so, that Boris Johnson is currently the leader of the UK, and would have been without a single Scottish vote,  but I don't see why I should pretend he walks on water either or is even vaguely competent.  I don't do "my country right or wrong...whether I think that country is Scotland or the UK. 

I will criticise where I feel I have reason to criticise, and the usual response on a political forum is to contradict what is said...not make up something which was never even hinted at. Perhaps instead of snide ad hominems, you could explain to me why herd immunity was the greatest idea since sliced bread that you think nobody should be criticising Boris Johnson and his Cabinet for making that their first reaction, despite the lessons of  both history and of the countries which did it differently  and more effectively?   .

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## Fulmar

You are entitled to your point of view as I am mine- and excuse me, but from where I sit, you are the one throwing out the superior comments against others, not me.

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## Oddquine

> You are entitled to your point of view as I am mine- and excuse me, but from where I sit, you are the one throwing out the superior comments against others, not me.


What superior comments am I throwing out? I am "throwing out" logical opinions based on the actions/inactions  of the UK Government in this pandemic. If my comments are "superior" does that mean that the actions/inactions I comment on were "inferior". If so, then I tend to agree. 

You, however are not entitled to manipulate words I said to make it appear I made remarks I did not make.  You are certainly entitled to interpret my remarks in a way so as to allow you to make snidey comments, because you obviously have nothing to say to counter my opinions with youir opinions/examples of the good this UK Government has done and is doing in this current crisis..but I am equally entitled to respond to those snidey comments based on wilful misinterpretations.   Perhaps if you stop doing that...I might stop responding to you. 

If this thread was intended to be a " My God...isn't Boris Johnson just marvellous ...he has ended up in hospital in the ICU, ventilator at the ready with Coronavirus and is still, unlike 99% of others in the ICU, keeping up with Government affairs. He is so wonderful and such a blessing to us all" then it shouldn't have been on the Political Forum, but in General or simply as a post on the Coronoavirus thread which is already there.  Then I wouldn't even have seen it.

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## Fulmar

This thread was started by Shabbychic, not me. Perhaps you had better ask her what she intended by it. For me, I think anything more is utterly pointless so I'm bowing out of this thread anyway.

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## Goodfellers

I thought that Scotland had its own NHS, own Health Protection Scotland and own SGoRR. My understanding was that the Scottish government are happy to co-operate with the UK government as much as possible, but can choose their own path if preferred.

All I'm seeing on here is complaints about how the Tories are mismanaging this WORLDWIDE crisis. No mention of the Scottish governments handling on the crisis, why is that?

Scottish government say that the NHS (in Scotland) "The NHS has been specifically preparing for the possibility of a wider outbreak of coronavirus since the beginning of the outbreak in Wuhan ",

You might ask, why didn't the NHS start ordering PPE last November, or ordering millions of test kits. Why is it that only the UK government are getting slated on here? As others have said, this is not the time to be playing the blame game, wait until we are on top of this pandemic.Then all the 'experts' with the benifit of hindsight can say 'Oh, if only they had done this or that at that particular time'. Hindsight makes everyone an 'expert'.

The next general election will be when we find out if the general public are happy with the UK governments handling of the outbreak.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/co...s-in-scotland/

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## Corky Smeek

I'll give you one reason.

You and all the others of a BritNat persuasion are constantly telling us how Scotland is too wee, too poor and too stupid to be trusted with anything of significance.  Instead, we are told we should be grateful for the broad shoulders and superior influence being part of the UK allows. 

HMG has demanded control over the Covid19 response on the basis that it has "national" implications.  

They wanted the job. They got the job. They made a pig's ar*e of the job.

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## Goodfellers

> I'll give you one reason.
> 
> You and all the others of a BritNat persuasion are constantly telling us how Scotland is too wee, too poor and too stupid to be trusted with anything of significance.  Instead, we are told we should be grateful for the broad shoulders and superior influence being part of the UK allows. 
> 
> HMG has demanded control over the Covid19 response on the basis that it has "national" implications.  
> 
> They wanted the job. They got the job. They made a pig's ar*e of the job.


To my knowledge no one apart from yourself has used that silly 'Wings over Scotland' phrase.

I accept that every government (including Scotlands) will make mistakes. I wont be trying to hang any of them out to dry though. This is a once in a generation (hopefully) event that all can learn from.

I understand that your overriding motivation is independence and want to make the UK government look 'bad' at every occasion, refusing to accept that the Scottish government is involved too. That's your problem, not mine. I think I have a slightly more balance mind set in relation to this pandemic and wont be criticising the SNP's handling of this pandemic. No-one knew what was coming. We should all accept that. Politics can wait.

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## Corky Smeek

> To my knowledge no one apart from yourself has used that silly 'Wings over Scotland' phrase.


Well, your knowledge is not very extensive then. Clearly you are not reading from the right sources. 

I am not an apologist for the SG. If they have made mistakes I will acknowledge them. The fact remains that HMG insisted on taking the lead and now has to bear the brunt of any blame.  Also, I don't need "to make the UK government look 'bad' at every occasion, ..".  They are doing a fantastic job all on their own and without any help from me.

Of course the SG is involved. I have never said otherwise but it is having to operate within far stricter budgetary constraints than HMG and cannot hope to find a magic money tree the way Rishi Sunak did.

Ok, no-one knew Covid19 was coming but everyone knew something like it was bound to happen sooner rather than later. That is why Exercise Cygnus was held. So, I will not accept the notion that this came out of the blue. HMG just chose to ignore the lessons from the exercise and now we are paying the price.

Politics cannot wait. Politics is what caused us to be in this mess. Politics needs to find a way out for all our sakes.

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## Shabbychic

> If this thread was intended to be a " My God...isn't Boris Johnson just marvellous ...he has ended up in hospital in the ICU, ventilator at the ready with Coronavirus and is still, unlike 99% of others in the ICU, keeping up with Government affairs. He is so wonderful and such a blessing to us all" then it shouldn't have been on the Political Forum, but in General or simply as a post on the Coronoavirus thread which is already there.  Then I wouldn't even have seen it.


I think you know that's not why this thread was started.  :Grin:  :Grin: 

I was angry that night at the disgraceful comments circulating online, and the fact that all those who want Independence were being blamed, and all tarred with the same brush.

I'm glad he survived, and hope he gets back on his feet soon, because he must then stand up and take responsibility for his action, or rather inaction, in this whole sorry catastrophe........and hope he and all his cronies have the guts to admit their failings and resign in disgrace.

I won't hold my breath, as there are still some deluded individuals who still think he is doing a great job. ::

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## Oddquine

> I think you know that's not why this thread was started. 
> 
> I was angry that night at the disgraceful comments circulating online, and the fact that all those who want Independence were being blamed, and all tarred with the same brush.
> 
> I'm glad he survived, and hope he gets back on his feet soon, because he must then stand up and take responsibility for his action, or rather inaction, in this whole sorry catastrophe........and hope he and all his cronies have the guts to admit their failings and resign in disgrace.
> 
> I won't hold my breath, as there are still some deluded individuals who still think he is doing a great job.


I do know....but I'm mostly on forums and FB and I block those on all sides of the divide who simply produce vitriol, sweary words and/or snide oneliners, so I didn't see much of the disgraceful comments, hence my less than enthusiastic response.  :Smile:   (My FB ignore list is as long as the North Coast 500). 

Noticed an article in the New Statesman yesterday on my FB feed.._" The eleven days that may have tragically cost the UK in the fight against coronavirus"_ . It was by a bloke who was an early coronavirus patient and he was not a happy bunny. I went onto his blog where I read it, and some others he has written about his experience...and why he is not a happy bunny.  The blog post that was reproduced in the New Statesman  is worth a read, as are some of the others, if you haven't already read it  and it is at   https://www.minghella.com/eleven-days-in-march/

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## Shabbychic

> I do know....but I'm mostly on forums and FB and I block those on all sides of the divide who simply produce vitriol, sweary words and/or snide oneliners, so I didn't see much of the disgraceful comments, hence my less than enthusiastic response.   (My FB ignore list is as long as the North Coast 500). 
> 
> Noticed an article in the New Statesman yesterday on my FB feed.._" The eleven days that may have tragically cost the UK in the fight against coronavirus"_ . It was by a bloke who was an early coronavirus patient and he was not a happy bunny. I went onto his blog where I read it, and some others he has written about his experience...and why he is not a happy bunny.  The blog post that was reproduced in the New Statesman  is worth a read, as are some of the others, if you haven't already read it  and it is at   https://www.minghella.com/eleven-days-in-march/


Makes interesting reading and makes you wonder just how many others this has happened to. What I do find disturbing though, are many of the comments. What planet are these people on?

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## Oddquine

> Makes interesting reading and makes you wonder just how many others this has happened to. What I do find disturbing though, are many of the comments. What planet are these people on?


Probably the same planet as the incompetent ignorant nincompoop PM who finally showed up on TV yesterday  telling us "We have so far succeeded in the first and most important task we set  ourselves as a nation. To avoid the tragedy that engulfed other parts of  the world."   but that tragedy we avoided wasn't unnecessary or high levels of deaths, as he went on to say "  *Because at no stage has our NHS been overwhelmed*.No patient went without a ventilator. No patient was deprived of intensive care."    

The tragedy* isn't* that we aren't overwhelming our NHS...the tragedy is that we aren't.....because if we were, then  fewer might have died. The tragedy is that the NHS has been so underfunded and ill-prepared to handle a crisis of this proportion, that steps had to be taken to ensure it didn't become overwhelmed...like only treating people we  thought we could save, and leaving the rest to die in care homes and at  home without even testing them (in case they had to go to hospital, overwhelm our NHS, and be counted in the figures for coronavirus linked deaths, one wonders?) 

The real tragedy is that our Government sat on its hands, watched the world imploding and did  sod all about it until it was too late, in order to protect the economy/the money in their pockets...and then went into it half-heartedly, to this day still letting people into the country without checks...welcoming them into a country without adequate protective gear for all who need it, or enough testing kits to trace and combat spread, and therefore quite probably importing more of the virus. 

And the biggest tragedy of all is that people will believe the bull manure emanating from the mouth of the great god Boris!

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## The Horseman

Believe it or not....All Countries dealt with it badly, some worse than others.
New Zealand is likely the most successful!
One can blame the WHO, and the fact that to be prepared for anything like this costs megabucks!  
Do u know that the N95 masks and the gloves have a 2 year shelf life! Then they have to be replaced....Do you know the cost of equipping Emergency Measures with said equipment.
And the people who the Govt’s choose to put on the Front Lines usually have No Experience in Crises Management.
And do you trust every Country to tell the truth about their problems.  And the list goes on.
It is said ‘Hindsight is 20/20‘.
I have been involved in Emergency Measures....it ‘ain’t easy’!
******And every Country brought people back into the Country and no, they were not checked, because it would be impossible to do it!
OR......they could have left them where they were to likely die!
Trust me.....It’s an Impossible Situation!

----------


## Corky Smeek

> Believe it or not....All Countries dealt with it badly, some worse than others.
> New Zealand is likely the most successful!


How can that be the case? NZ is a small, independent country of just under 5m people. Surely, countries of that size are incapable of running their own affairs. Are you trying to suggest that NZ somehow managed to work out, all by itself, control protocols that suited its unique circumstances ? Come off it! They must have had assistance from another country - perhaps one with broad shoulders.

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## The Horseman

New Zealand.....5 million population.......1500 Covid confirmed....20 Deaths!
Same population as Scotland.

Oddquine....Prez Trump stopped flights from China in Feb and was called a Racist.  So one is Damned if they do and ‘D’ if they don’t!
.................And the underfunding....Are you willing to pay Double/Triple in taxes.  Are you willing to put a limit on the 500,000 Mobility cars that are out?
                 I know someone who has had a mobility car for 10 years.. He travels all over Europe and recently sent his new allotment car back, as it wasn‘t the right colour and didn’t have headlight Washers and Wipers! Plus Insurance, licence and petrol!  And I have seen him and he is quite healthy!   His Wife got one and didn't drive so she got Driving lessons!..FREE.  Ohhhh and one can get a 7 seater!
Are you willing to forgo that, and all the other benefits people get.  A Country cannot afford everything.   Just wait...your taxes are going up on all facets of life in the near future!
And of course Politicians Will boast about what they have done.   That is the Animal of Government!  
And they do it in every Country.  Take credit for what is positive, and blame the previous Gov’t for inadequacies!   ‘Tis the way!

i should mention that there will be lessons learned here, and forgotten until the next fiasco!

In addition.....in North America approx 70% of deaths were the Elderly in Care Homes!

----------


## Shabbychic

> Believe it or not....All Countries dealt with it badly, some worse than others.
> New Zealand is likely the most successful!
> One can blame the WHO, and the fact that to be prepared for anything like this costs megabucks!  
> Do u know that the N95 masks and the gloves have a 2 year shelf life! Then they have to be replaced....Do you know the cost of equipping Emergency Measures with said equipment.
> And the people who the Govts choose to put on the Front Lines usually have No Experience in Crises Management.
> And do you trust every Country to tell the truth about their problems.  And the list goes on.
> It is said Hindsight is 20/20.
> I have been involved in Emergency Measures....it aint easy!
> ******And every Country brought people back into the Country and no, they were not checked, because it would be impossible to do it!
> ...


Oh dear, where do you get your information fae? Perhaps the 'Tory Fan Club Fantasy Magazine', or the highly rated 'Conservative Crisis Management Manual for the Gullible'?  Your take on this whole situation is so far from the truth, that not only are you on a different page from reality, but a different book, in a different language, from a different planet.......possibly Uran......Mars?

----------


## Shabbychic

> I know someone who has had a mobility car for 10 years.. He travels all over Europe and recently sent his new allotment car back, as it wasn‘t the right colour and didn’t have headlight Washers and Wipers! Plus Insurance, licence and petrol!  And I have seen him and he is quite healthy!   His Wife got one and didn't drive so she got Driving lessons!..FREE.  Ohhhh and one can get a 7 seater!


So, you are back to the Motability cars again.  (sandyr1)


Can I remind you that Motability cars are not free. To get one you must go through strict medical tests to qualify for Higher Rate Mobility Allowance, and this is what pays for it, if you choose to have a car instead of the money. It applies to everyone, including those in full time employment. This qualifies you for a basic car, but you must pay extra, out of your own pocket, for bigger, or fancier models. Petrol is NOT included. There are no limits on how many are allowed per household, as long as each recipient, qualifies for Higher Rate Mobility Allowance in their own right. And please remember, looking quite healthy, means nothing. There are invisible illnesses, and it is not easy to get Higher Rate Mobility Allowance any more.

I forgot to add, there is also a 60.000 miles, mileage limit over 3 years. You have to pay extra for every mile you travel over this limit.

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## The Horseman

Yup u got it!
U cannot have everything!
Ohh mistake...550,000 nowadays!
Social Assistance means just that.  Help for those in Dire Need!  Get it.  The needy!
I am just quoting from the UK official Websites.

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## Shabbychic

> Ohh mistake...550,000 nowadays!
> Social Assistance means just that.  Help for those in Dire Need!  Get it.  The needy!
> I am just quoting from the UK official Websites.😇


Mobility Allowance and Daily Living Allowance have absolutely nothing to do with financial need or 'the needy'. They both come under PIP (Personal Independence Payment) previously known as DLA (Disability Living Allowance) and have nothing to do with any other Benefits, or other incomes. You can even have a full time job and still qualify for one or both components of PIP. It is paid no matter your income, savings, or NI contributions, and is tax free. David Cameron used to claim DLA for his disabled son, and I don't think he was needy.


Your mention of Social Assistance is actually called Universal Credit in the UK nowadays, and that is the one that is supposed to help people on low incomes, or out of work, (pitiful as it is) and has nothing to do with Mobility Allowance or Motability Vehicles. 


Did you go to the Priti Patel school of maths? The mileage allowance is sixty thousand miles for a 3 year agreement, or one hundred thousand miles for a 5 year agreement, NOT five hundred and fifty thousand miles for any kind of agreement.


I don't have a Motability car myself, just in case you're interested, but I know someone who does.

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## Oddquine

> New Zealand.....5 million population.......1500 Covid confirmed....20 Deaths!
> Same population as Scotland.
> 
> Oddquine....Prez Trump stopped flights from China in Feb and was called a Racist.  So one is Damned if they do and ‘D’ if they don’t!
> .................And the underfunding....Are you willing to pay Double/Triple in taxes.  Are you willing to put a limit on the 500,000 Mobility cars that are out?
>                  I know someone who has had a mobility car for 10 years.. He travels all over Europe and recently sent his new allotment car back, as it wasn‘t the right colour and didn’t have headlight Washers and Wipers! Plus Insurance, licence and petrol!  And I have seen him and he is quite healthy!   His Wife got one and didn't drive so she got Driving lessons!..FREE.  Ohhhh and one can get a 7 seater!
> Are you willing to forgo that, and all the other benefits people get.  A Country cannot afford everything.   Just wait...your taxes are going up on all facets of life in the near future!
> And of course Politicians Will boast about what they have done.   That is the Animal of Government!  
> And they do it in every Country.  Take credit for what is positive, and blame the previous Gov’t for inadequacies!   ‘Tis the way!
> ...


New Zealand, lucky for them, doesn't have a neighbour with sole control of its income, and in charge of everything though, does it?   

Trump didn't stop flights from China in February....or, if it comes to that flights from  Europe.  Trump restricted travel for  “foreign nationals who had been in China in the last 14 days.” as if foreigners were the only ones who could be infected and Americans were incapable of catching and tranamitting a virus. Pretty much the same attitude as in the UK...ie ..you can get home if you promise faithfully to self-isolate for a fortnight. 

Re underfunding...your examples of the ways to increase/free up taxes is typically Tory...try to scare us with the threat of increased taxes for everybody (not just the highest earners) or take a pop at the benefits system which grudgingly helps the poor and sick...with your diatribe about motability cars. I note you *don't* offer any of the obvious solutions and say...stop or cut back on the corporate welfare to ex-nationalised industries that costs over £90 billion a year because we privatise profits but nationalise the bulk of financial responsibility; stop subsidising companies via tax credits to pay crap wages;  don't upgrade Trident; scrap HS2; don't tart up Buck House or the Houses of Parliament; don't fork out six and a half million on allowing MPs to work from home or well over £60 million a year in subsidising 800+ jobs for the boys in an unelected second chamber; or even do what they usually do, and simply pluck more leaves from Westminster's magic money tree..the same tree that grew the £1 billion bung fto buy the DUP's support Theresa May's government. 

If lessons are forgotten about until an emergency occurs, then they are not lessons learned, are they?  Any government worthy of the name should be heeding lessons learned and setting in place some kind of apparatus to meet the possibility of just such an emergency. If not, why do we bother having Governments? We had the pandemic response simulation in 2016...and the reccomendations were ignored; we had ample warning of the coronavirus pandemic in January...and that was ignored; we have been running on the spot half-heartedly trying to catch up, since we actually started taking notice of the fact there was a problem...once it landed on our shores because we didn't start to do something about it at the earliest stages..like testing people at airports or from cruise ships in ports for example.  

Wow...there is a country worse than us for not bothering their backside to do the obvious, then...how reassuring to our belief in our exceptionalism is that?

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## The Horseman

Lets not get personal!
I am very simply saying that we cannot ‘have it all’.
£6 Billion would go a long way to assist to prepare for the present calamity.
I don't know of any other Country that has such a Liberal policy of ‘doling’ out money.
Come on.....there are no scare tactics.......just You cannot have it all!
I agree all Gov'ts are bloated.  Millions for this and that.  We all have that.  
A Politician here got in on the Catchy phrase.....Do away with the Gravy Train! 
Yes, someone has to pay for Covid, and the only place the money can from is us poor tax payers.
All Political parties are the same/ just different theories.
And we had a Nuke disaster exercise......where did the Recommendations go, and there were many........Filed.

Testing people at Airports....Impossible...we had thousands come thru and No one was tested.  And if they did test positive, where are you going to put them!.....They were given a peace of paper and told to Self Isolate.  70% didn't.  The logistics are impossible.
I still feel that all Gov’t are in the same boat/plane!  Very few have handled this well.
NZ seems to have, with approx. the same population as Scotland.
I think here Politics should be put aside and a concerted effort be made to rethink Scotland,  and for that matter ‘other Countries’.  There seems no sense in this continual argument of separation at a time when The UK is ‘licking it’s wounds’.
It’s better together!
No sense in trashing me!  If you had been smarter or better, you like everyone else would not be in the Dire situation we are all in!

Caveat.....The blame game doesn't work here!  Solutions do!

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## Corky Smeek

> I think here Politics should be put aside


That is usually the go-to phrase when someone feels their preferred political system is under threat. 

As has been said many times on here this situation requires a political solution. Politicians are deciding the policy; the allocation of funds; the distribution of resources and even the use of the armed forces. This situation could not be any more political if it tried. It's just a shame that the UK currently has a bumper crop of self-interested, incompetent, numbskulls in charge.

The thing that really gets me mad though, is all the distraction activity that is going on; either initiated or encouraged by HMG and all of it draped in a UJ.  They have allowed this pandemic to produce what will probably be the single worst socio-economic crisis in all our lifetimes. And yet their crisis management approach seems to be, "We have made a huge mess of everything so let's create a load of smoke and mirrors and maybe people won't notice.". Dunkirk and Blitz spirit references; centenarian veterans having to keep the NHS afloat; good old Boris recovering; and national clapping once a week. Then there is the press going ballistic when the SG proposes a plan (face masks in some public places) which HMG hasn't even thought about yet but which the press spin to be a cheap attempt by NS to embarrass HMG.

As for your assertion that "It's better together!"; don't make me laugh. Being in this Union is costing people their lives. British exceptionalism is costing people their lives and above all sheer incompetence is costing people their lives.

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## The Horseman

Canada has been using the Military for likely 2 months now, to supplement Old Age homes and as a support system, and most other Countries are now doing the same!
All Governments are ‘smoke and mirrors’!
I agree that those in charge in most Countries arn’t capable of Crisis Mgm’t!
If it’s any consolation, Most Countries are in the same boat, with the same probs, but people trying to ‘stir it up’ at this juncture, serves no one!
If people feel so strongly about the issues, they should go and Volunteer.
And Division creates more Division, and thus it goes on and on!  
Stick together and wait for an opportunity to do better.
Go back in time...what caused the probs in the British Empire, and all the great dynasties in the World!

----------


## Oddquine

> Lets not get personal!
> I am very simply saying that we cannot ‘have it all’.
> £6 Billion would go a long way to assist to prepare for the present calamity.
> I don't know of any other Country that has such a Liberal policy of ‘doling’ out money.
> Come on.....there are no scare tactics.......just You cannot have it all!
> I agree all Gov'ts are bloated.  Millions for this and that.  We all have that.  
> A Politician here got in on the Catchy phrase.....Do away with the Gravy Train! 
> Yes, someone has to pay for Covid, and the only place the money can from is us poor tax payers.
> All Political parties are the same/ just different theories.
> ...


Who is getting personal?  Do you object to being considered to have Tory attitudes?  If so, I apologise, and realise I should have said right wing attitudes. That better? 

If testing people at airports is impossible..then how have other countries managed it?  I have just read a post on FB from someone who came back from Australia  a few days ago, comparing the laissez faire attitude at the UK airports on arrival at Heathrow...no tests, no social distancing, staff without PPE etc. etc.  to her experience on leaving Australia.  After all, if Matt Hancock is correct, (and why would he lie) passenger numbers had fallen to about 15,000 a day by the 16th April so surely  airport and immigration staff could cope with a drop of nearly 90% of the previous year's traffic into airports...given they aren't all going to arrive on the same flight? 

I agree we cannot have it all, but where politics comes into it is that different political ideologies have different spending priorities and recruit their advisory boards/councils, scientific or otherwise,  with those priorities in mind.  As I said elsewhere.... If you DON''T scrutinise and criticise a government for thousands  needlessly dying...then they are just going to carry on making their  catastrophic errors, aren't they?   I'm getting sick of people saying  that now is not the time to be criticising, and we should all pull  together. Does that mean we all pull together, without complaint, until  the government manages to kill off enough of us, before the 2021-2022  budget, to cut their pension payouts and other benefit spending in order   to free up money to give tax breaks to those who don't need any more  tax breaks? 

I wasn't trashing you, btw,  unless you are a "my government right or wrong" kind of person, in which case, you will take personal offence at any criticism of the UK Government, however deserved it is...so if you feel offended, that is down to you and not me.

Solutions require someone to be interested in hearing and implementing them...something our government has not done at any time since this whole thing started. They have listened only to what they wanted to hear...e.g. "herd immunity"   They have reacted to pressure, some of which may well be the volume of ordinary people trashing them all over Social media, and some of the media rolling back a shade from its usually uncritical  and unscrutinised support. If we hadn't been all over the media complaining about the rank stupidity of our government, the lack of PPE, the level of deaths etc etc...the government would probably still be blatantly pursuing their original idea of herd immunity with no safegaurds, waiting for the virus to cull the herd....instead of doing it surreptitiously, while lying through their teeth as to how well we are doing compared to other countries.

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## The Horseman

Hi, I really don’t know what the answer is.
The World in general has problems....of no surprise to me.
Methinks the answer is to get into Politics yourself.  And of course, then u will see the difficulties of changing anything!

An example......Damage, and Drunks rampaging in Wick and Thurso.   
Two men who could do something about it...Willie Mackey and Mathew Reiss.
What do they do...Nothing.....that we have heard of!

Willie Mackay...Caithness Civic Leader...poses for Photo Ops at the damaged scenes, and provides his own pics to the Newspapers!
Mathew Reiss the retired Copper, who obviously has connections, is unheard.  Again!
You toe the ‘Council Line’......I would invite them to respond!
So there you are.......u take it from there!
That is why Donald Trump came to power.......just to get rid of the ...Same old......Same old!

----------


## Oddquine

> Hi, I really don’t know what the answer is.
> The World in general has problems....of no surprise to me.
> Methinks the answer is to get into Politics yourself.  And of course, then u will see the difficulties of changing anything!
> 
> An example......Damage, and Drunks rampaging in Wick and Thurso.   
> Two men who could do something about it...Willie Mackey and Mathew Reiss.
> What do they do...Nothing.....that we have heard of!
> 
> Willie Mackay...Caithness Civic Leader...poses for Photo Ops at the damaged scenes, and provides his own pics to the Newspapers!
> ...


Is that not a job for the police? What do you expect councillors to do about drunks rampaging in the streets? Isn't there a no alcohol in public places rule for the police to enforce? If not they could certainly try doing something about that.

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## The Horseman

I think I quit this conversation.
Methinks u will argue with your Shadow!
Regards.

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## Oddquine

> I think I quit this conversation.
> Methinks u will argue with your Shadow!
> Regards.


That's your prerogative of course. I suppose sensible enough when you will never convince me, or many other people, that Westminster responded adequately and was not driven by their political ideology as opposed to the common good, when they protected the health of the economy first and foremost, rather than the health and well-being of the whole UK population they are meant to represent. They did too little, too late and did what little they did do, they did  half-heartedly...as evidenced by the fact that they are seemingly intending to start coming out of lockdown, when there are still no checks on people coming into the country, still no working testing and tracing regime and still a shortage of PPE....and when other countries didn't start coming out of lockdown for a month or more after "hitting the peak", the "exceptional" UK, who only began to notice anything was wrong a fortnight after anybody else in the first place, and has the highest death rate in Europe, is intending to do it after three weeks....yet again, putting the health of the economy before the health of the population.

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## The Horseman

I realize what you are saying, but if the system has failed which most did across the World, then DO something about it.
Get like minded people ‘Up in Arms’, and get better representation For the people!

My example of the Two Politicians were not meant to demean them, or to criticize you!  It was to say, if they cannot get the drunks off the street and prevent continual damage being done, how can any one of them or any of the Elected people deal competently with the Current situation.
BTW...The Council Civic Leaders/Politicians meet with the Police and there can construct strategies to counter the Drunks and Damage being done.  As usual this is not being done!  The Police are there to serve the Public.
In 1829 Sir Robert Peel said.....The Police are the Public and the Public are the Police!   These two entities are entwined!  
Above Lybster harbour there was a bench.  It was damaged many times, and after if being fixed by volunteers, it was eventually thrown in the harbour.
Something has to change with local council, including the Leaders of the UK., so rather than Rant on about it, do something!
I read your ‘stuff’, and feel you are a well educated person.  Take advantage of your gift.

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## Oddquine

> I realize what you are saying, but if the system has failed which most did across the World, then DO something about it.
> Get like minded people ‘Up in Arms’, and get better representation For the people!
> 
> My example of the Two Politicians were not meant to demean them, or to criticize you!  It was to say, if they cannot get the drunks off the street and prevent continual damage being done, how can any one of them or any of the Elected people deal competently with the Current situation.
> BTW...The Council Civic Leaders/Politicians meet with the Police and there can construct strategies to counter the Drunks and Damage being done.  As usual this is not being done!  The Police are there to serve the Public.
> In 1829 Sir Robert Peel said.....The Police are the Public and the Public are the Police!   These two entities are entwined!  
> Above Lybster harbour there was a bench.  It was damaged many times, and after if being fixed by volunteers, it was eventually thrown in the harbour.
> Something has to change with local council, including the Leaders of the UK., so rather than Rant on about it, do something!
> I read your ‘stuff’, and feel you are a well educated person.  Take advantage of your gift.



Problem with committees (and parliaments are just glorified committees) is the existence of politics. Politics polarises and divides...it doesn't strive for consensus/a workable pragmatic compromise to suit most of the people most of the time.  As committees are elected via an undemocratic FPTP (or variation of it) system, (bar Scottish local councillors who are elected by STV, but also by less than the full complement of eligble voters), or by nomination from people already within the FPTP undemocratic system) by a minority of the people eligible to vote, the country is run to suit a minority, and the majority are obliged to lump it until the next election. In fact, it is not only run by a government a minority voted for, it is also run by special interest groups and advisors nobody voted for. The UK system, when a political party has an appreciable majority, is little more than an elected dictatorship. We had the chance to change the voting system in 2011, and 42% of the voters decided for us that we wanted to keep FPTP.

 If, at my age, I was inclined to get up in arms in a non-sedentary way. I'd be fighting for STV, compulsory voting at pain of fine.and a written constution including something more on the lines of a contract of employment for MPs, instead of them being able to decide for themselves how the job is to be done and remunerated, which has to be approved by referendum and only altered by referendum. (I'd also ban coalition governments and lobbying by special interest and business groups). I'd expect candidates of political parties to have some reasonably recent connection with the area they want to represent, (no parachuting in), and have some more life experience than a political degree and/or a stint in a parliamentary/constituency or government departmental office. Professional politicians are not representative of anyone but politicians. I'd also like to see party manifestos setting out EVERYTHING a government is intending to do and how they intend to do it...and not have them throwing in brainfarts during their term that they have never mentioned before (and I'm thinking about the GRA bill in Holyrood here).  I can't see too many agreeing with my thoughts on it all, though!  :Smile: 

Councillors, like MPs have to pass things by majority...no majority means a fail. But it looks as if, as far as Highland Council is concerned bye-laws only apply to Wick and Thurso, unless they are using Wick and Thurso as shorthand for the East and West of Caithness from the top to Sutherland.  Can community councils make bye-laws?  I've never been a fan of Police Scotland, though I can understand that it does cut costs while we are existing on pocket-money, but when I lived in Caithness, before the Police Scotland days, I found that the local police were too inclined to do little about people they knew, who were breaking the law...as in vandalism/ fighting on the street, for example. In the end, it is down to the police to deal with miscreants, following the rules set up by the government and councils, but they can't be everywhere at the same time. Even a local bobby wouldn't necessarily be in that area at the time to see the bench being vandalised or thrown in the water.  That's the kind of thing that CCTV cameras, or people phoning in, are useful for...isn't there anywhere around Lybster Harbour (if you are meaning the Latheron Lybster, where I used to stay) that could take a CCTV camera?  

Inclined to think the police are no longer as trusted as they used to be...a bit like politicians and the media.....they have been politicised, I fear, but then so much has been nowadays. I would like to roll the clock at least as far back as to the days when being a councillor was a part-time expenses only job (because I'm blowed if I can see what they do all day) and not a salaried and pensioned income choice....but ideally, I'd prefer the town councils and district councils of my younger days, which seemed to me to work fine. I do really hate the way money has become a god to our politicians and too many of their supporters. 

I am, surprisingly,  not party political...I like at least one thing in the manifestos of every party, and if pushed, describe myself as a leftwing scottish nationalist with right wing tendencies. If the SNP(or some other pro-independence party) didn't exist, I'd never have voted in any election in the last 50 years as I don't vote on policies...I vote on the the principle of independence only and currently hold my nose voting SNP.   

Real change will never come within the UK, because real change needs full control of the economic reins and the ability to choose for ourselves our own priorities....not a handout of pocket money,with us paying for stuff which doesn't improve our tax income, and with any  benefits from growth in the economy heading back down to the Westminster Treasury.

----------


## The Horseman

Surprise, surprise....I agree with most if what you say.
But there is a ’New World‘, and like it or not we have to conform. Strategies must change.  
I grew up in Caithness, worked in ‘Week’, and then to London, England. 
Then to Canada and was based near Toronto travelling across Canada and America for a good part of 30+ years.  
What we have are similar Government set ups, but they are all different!  Yes I am being contradictory.  Thats the way it is, and we cannot change it! 
In Canada I worked for the Regional Municipal Gov’t., but was Seconded to both the Provincial and Federal Gov'ts, and the only thing constant was change.  As time went by I moved to what one could call a Senior Mgm’t Position, and with it came what you are describing.
To be honest, nothing got done without Multiple meetings, to have more meetings and eventually something that could be completed and enacted on in a Month, ended up taking 2 years.
Politicians who were elected went there with enthusiasm, and turned into what you are describing.
NOW.....CCTV.. why?
The Law Enforcement theory is....if you let broken windows, and malicious damage occur without penalty, you will see an increase in other more serious crimes.  What goes on in the North of Scotland would not be tolerated in most Countries, well the ones I have been to.
In Canada we do not have CCTV, and we are doing very well.  In some of the Major American Inner Cities they have a few cameras, but nothing to the extent to that if the UK.
I think in Canada we have the best of both Worlds.  We still have the British Justice system with a neighbour to the South who has a Beeg Gun!
My thought is that we have to adapt to a New World, where the ‘norm’ as we knew it has changed.
And of course Covid 19 will be another Game Changer. 
I do find that the UK has a very liberal Social Assistance program.  Much more than any other Country I know of.  I do find it difficult to figure out how you can afford it!
Anyway, I didn't write this out as eloquently as you.  Just bullet points!.........s

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## Oddquine

> Surprise, surprise....I agree with most if what you say.
> But there is a ’New World‘, and like it or not we have to conform. Strategies must change.  
> I grew up in Caithness, worked in ‘Week’, and then to London, England. 
> Then to Canada and was based near Toronto travelling across Canada and America for a good part of 30+ years.  
> What we have are similar Government set ups, but they are all different!  Yes I am being contradictory.  Thats the way it is, and we cannot change it! 
> In Canada I worked for the Regional Municipal Gov’t., but was Seconded to both the Provincial and Federal Gov'ts, and the only thing constant was change.  As time went by I moved to what one could call a Senior Mgm’t Position, and with it came what you are describing.
> To be honest, nothing got done without Multiple meetings, to have more meetings and eventually something that could be completed and enacted on in a Month, ended up taking 2 years.
> Politicians who were elected went there with enthusiasm, and turned into what you are describing.
> NOW.....CCTV.. why?
> ...



In the UK the only way to change anything would be either independence for each of the countries or a federal system with a very strictly written constitution which didn't allow England to ride roughshod over the smaller counties as happens now. Devolution is little but a hostage to fortune, in the gift of Westminster and under the control of a Westminster which makes up its own rules on the hoof. 
,
I'm not so convinced there is a "new world". This one seems to me not a lot different to the 18th and 19th century world, when the UK (mostly) and a few other european countries killed native brown people, took charge of their land and plundered their resources, bar nowadays, we have nominated (not elected) committees, the UN, the EU, Nato etc, run at the top by the West to suit the politics of the West, with the USA in the old UK driving seat, doing the killing, turning a blind eye to the killing or justifying the killing. I see little difference between the modern neoliberal capitalism the west is striving to install everywhere and the capitalism which encouraged the UK to colonise half the world....the methods used today are little different to those used a couple of hundred years ago. 

We have gone kinda overboard with CCTV, but as the police can't be everywhere at once, and as there is generally a time lag between a crime being reported and the arrival of a police presence, it can be a useful tool in identifying perpetrators. Perhaps in this day and age of everybody and their dog taking photos or videos on their phones of crimes as they happen, and uploading them to the internet, it is no longer as necessary as it once was, but I see no problem with it, unless you are doing something you shouldn't be doing. A much bigger problem is the politicising of the police and justice system in the UK...and the lack of trust in both as a result. If people are reluctant to come forward with information, how else are any street crimes to be solved without CCTV? 

The difference between Canada and Scotland is that your neighbour with the Beeg Gun doesn't park that Beeg Gun 40 miles outside Toronto, without a by-your-leave, as our neighbour does with their one.  

I think the only game that will change after Covid-19 will be the game of how much austerity will the UK population wear without an uprising, as the Government feels the effects of a reduced Covid-19 economy and a pretty much simultaneous final exit from the EU. 

The Social Security is not as liberal as you seem to think. The basic unemployment benefit is a flat rate of £73.10 for a single person over 25, regardless of previous earnings, about £126 Canadian dollars at todays exchange rate. The same amount, pretty much, as the £2 billion those earning o over £50,000 a year got in Income tax cuts.  In 2018, the UK spent 3.3% of GDP more than Canada on Social security...more than half of which was pensions, 12% of which was corporate welfare(subsidies to companies to pay crap wages) and around 10% was housing benefit much of which was paid to private landlords, particularly in London. for inflated rents, so pretty much two thirds of Social Security goes to pensioners and the working poor with about 22% of that going into the profits of companies and private landlords...and the rest pays for child benefit, disability and incapacity related benefits and pension credits. 

We can argue until the cows come home about whether the criteria for claiming social security is too restrictive, lax or riddled with loopholes which allow scamming, but in the end, every penny the government spends on welfare is spent by the ordinary person on living their lives, and by doing that they contribute to the exchequer via VAT payments, if nothing else...and to the neoliberal capitalist's benefit...that spending adds to the profits of companies, many of which then take their profits off shore and/or pay no or minimal tax in the UK. So who is taking most advantage of the Government policies .....the person on social security...or the businesses and fatcats who avoid paying their taxes?

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## The Horseman

You have a ‘unique’ situation in Scotland. The separation attempts from the UK has me confused.....
Oh...BTW I am frae The Lybster vicinity, not Latheron.
And aren't there are benefits above and beyond Social Security?
And the profitable companies are the ones the Gov’ts use for the Funding of pensions etc.
And finally.....’buy anything Gold’.   It’s Gonna Rock!.

Now to Security of one’s Person and the Polis.  From what I read, and see when I am ‘over ‘ome’, the new generation are very reluctant to go to the Polis, as has been written/witnessed locally.
I remember coming home from a dance in Latheron as a passenger in a car, early one morn., when I was about 16.  A car passed us and went off the road at Remiggy.  The Polis were there within a few minutes as they were also going home, and asked for witnesses as to whom was driving.  I told them and ended up getting Subpoenaed to Court.  I gave my evidence as to the driver who was a Watten Farmer.  Finis...I thought.
Perhaps a year later, I was working in Brora/Golspie during the ‘sheep dog trials‘, and there on the Street was the Farmer, the worse for wear with drink, and his two dogs.  He tried to set the dogs on me, one of which did take a Sma’ bite.. Polis again, and he was arrested and went to Jail!  Just reminiscing! 
All Countries have probs and issues, but rest assured the systems that are in place in the UK, Canada and in the Western World, are Superior to that of other Less civilized places. 
One more point.........Many people hate/loath Prez Trump...........America is 75% Red Neck, and he is mostly playing to the crowd!
And CNN’s sole purpose is to depose him, lies and all, as they are Democratically (Liberal) controlled, whereas Trump etal are Republican (Conservative).  The Tabloids are now generally leaving him alone as they have been sued so many times for their falsehoods they will be bankrupt.
Michael Bloomberg just spent $500,000 Million trying to get Trump out....and failed.  As you say..some systems are ‘not fair’!

----------


## orkneycadian

Thoroughly entertained by the 8pm broadcast.  Not by all that guff about restrictions spouted by Boris, but the facial expressions of the hard of hearing signer at the side.  Some of them were absolutely priceless and far more entertaining than what Boris was saying.

----------


## Alrock

> Thoroughly entertained by the 8pm broadcast.  Not by all that guff about restrictions spouted by Boris, but the facial expressions of the hard of hearing signer at the side.  Some of them were absolutely priceless and far more entertaining than what Boris was saying.


Bet they wearn't as good as this guy...

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## orkneycadian

Aye, he does take the biscuit right enough.  I did wonder what happened to Uncle Albert after Only Fools and Horses.

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## Fulmar

There are many rich folk in the north too and I think that you will find that some of the worst poverty actually exists in areas of London. There has been no shortage of 'bodies' in London and the south during this pandemic where the death toll was horribly high.

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## orkneycadian

Dozy, at lat you are wakening up to some important points




> No one in their right mind could or would support this Carry on team of clowns. Six more months of this and we'll all be bankrupt ,dead or both.  Over 2 trillion in debt and growing day by day


Indeed, we cannot support this carry on any longer.  The bankruptcy has already been sealed, and there are growing concerns that more folk will die from untreated and undiagnosed conditions, than will ever die *with* conoravirus, let alone *from* it.  And yes, the 2.4 trillion of debt is hugely scary.  We must stop living beyond our means and stop adding to the debt pile.  




> So much for an even playing field ,the rich in the south stay safe and count the cash ,when the poor north counts the bodies


Well, its not that bad up here yet!  But I agree about the North / South divide.  Us up here in the North are left hung out to dry, while those in the south, in Edinburgh, Glasgow and the rest of the Southern Belt make sure they are well provided for.  




> More strange accents and less local voices to be heard every time your out.


Mercy, Dozy, your not complaining about being colonised are you?  




> No money for a maid


Oh dear, how misogynistic.  Why oh why Dozy would you revert to using such a dated stereotype?  Next you'll be telling us that his maid should be called Mammy.....

----------


## The Horseman

I was just reading about the SNP ‘saga’!
Are they competing with Prez Trump and Biden.
Is it true what I am reading about The SNP secretly communicating with the EU., and a Survey now says that the No side is ‘on top’!

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## The Horseman

I guess this is too Political!  Ach weel!

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## Shabbychic

> I was just reading about the SNP saga!
> Are they competing with Prez Trump and Biden.
> Is it true what I am reading about The SNP secretly communicating with the EU., and a Survey now says that the No side is on top!



I don't believe your post was too political.....it was just the usual dig at the Scottish Government.

Yes, there is a lot going on in the SNP at the moment. It will be sorted.

No, they are not competing with anybody.

Yes, there are communications going on with the EU....but hardly a secret, as even you know about it.

Pray tell where this latest survey is with the No side 'on top'?  This I would like to see.

......and just to keep you in suspenders about the Secret VIP from the Salmond trial, you are so desperate to know about.......I'll give you a clue.......It's a MAN. :Wink:

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## The Horseman

Well I am NOT against Scotland....my thoughts are, for now anyway, it’s better together!
And the reason....why expend all this time and energy on a Political issue, when people are in Danger.
I am sure our health is more important than anything else.
It really surprises me, as an honest Scot, that all this S......... is ongoing in a Sma’ Country of 5 million people.
People who put other people down, have no right to be in Politics, especially at such an upper level.  They aren't thinking about the Country......just selfish people working for themselves!
And a MAN eh?  Whisper to me!
I remember you from ‘way back’.   Are you a Northerner?  A real North person.....Like Kaitness/ North of the Ord!
Ty..

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## dozy

The end is in site for unionists ,even after our Master tells us " I'll choose ,not you" .  Strange thing is ,If I was a person of colour , a different religion or sexual orientation they or he would never have the word no in a reply to that question. So why when it comes the Freedom to choose , I have no rights .

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## orkneycadian

You have rights.  Just like the rest of us, you were given the right to vote in a referendum on the matter in 2014.  45% of people voted to leave the UK, 55% voted to stay in the UK.  Its quite simple really.

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## orkneycadian

> Dozy, at lat you are wakening up to some important points
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed, we cannot support this carry on any longer.  The bankruptcy has already been sealed, and there are growing concerns that more folk will die from untreated and undiagnosed conditions, than will ever die *with* conoravirus, let alone *from* it.  And yes, the 2.4 trillion of debt is hugely scary.  We must stop living beyond our means and stop adding to the debt pile.  
> 
> 
> 
> Well, its not that bad up here yet!  But I agree about the North / South divide.  Us up here in the North are left hung out to dry, while those in the south, in Edinburgh, Glasgow and the rest of the Southern Belt make sure they are well provided for.  
> ...


Does anyone know why Dozy's posts keep disappearing?  Thats another one gone off this thread, the one where the above snippets were in response to.  Strange how they keep disappearing.

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## dozy

The Tory conference (sorry tea party ) and the PM speech proves that the Mad Hatter has truely been licking the lead. 
A Snake oil salesman from a party of vipers . Some things will never change .

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## orkneycadian

> The Tory conference (sorry tea party ) and the PM speech proves that the Mad Hatter has truely been licking the lead. 
> A Snake oil salesman from a party of vipers . Some things will never change .


Just capturing your post for posterity, before it disappears.

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## orkneycadian

> The Tory conference (sorry tea party ) and the PM speech proves that the Mad Hatter has truely been licking the lead. 
> A Snake oil salesman from a party of vipers . Some things will never change .


What time did you start on the hooch today?

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## The Horseman

> The Tory conference (sorry tea party ) and the PM speech proves that the Mad Hatter has truely been licking the lead. 
> A Snake oil salesman from a party of vipers . Some things will never change .


Can u pls decipher!  Would be nice to know of what thou Speaketh!

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## The Horseman

Just listened to Boris....he said ‘stop it’ SNP.
We are better together, and you are having a Summit in Glasgow next year!
He is the BOSS I fear.  Oh well.

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## Fulmar

Boris will be judged on how he has handled Covid and I think that many have already made up their minds on that. Only 30% of voters south  of the border have confidence in how Westminster is handling the pandemic whereas the comparable figure for Nicola Sturgeon and the Scottish Government is around 70%. Boris can try all he likes to paint a green vision of the future and move things on but in the end, he may not be there to implement it and the Tories are quite capable of ditching him and holding a leadership contest if things get too bad.

----------


## The Horseman

Of course your Poll on his popularity can vary dramatically depending on who did it, and what affiliation they have with the Leader.
From whar I read your 70% is a bit high.......in fact with the Salmond thingy, Nicky is not being held in very ‘high esteem’,  Mind you none of them have honest faces!
I think people are willing to put up with Politicians and their Shenanigans, but their conduct seem to have gone too far!  Capiche!

----------


## orkneycadian

> in fact with the Salmond thingy, Nicky is not being held in very high esteem,  Mind you none of them have honest faces!


Apparently, she is not dishonest, just 'forgetful'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54439758

*Nicola Sturgeon 'forgot' about meeting with Alex Salmond aide*

----------


## Shabbychic

> *Nicola Sturgeon 'forgot' about meeting with Alex Salmond aide*


Oh Dear.....Never mind.....*I know a song about that*.......And I Feel Fine!!! :Smile:

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## The Horseman

It seems Queen Nicola is about to lose her Crown.....
The power of Politics........and what a mess!

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## Shabbychic

> It seems Queen Nicola is about to lose her Crown.....
> The power of Politics........and what a mess!


Where do you get yer rubbish fae? You are always coming up with these wee daft pronouncements, wie nae back up evidence.

Please link your information source about Nicola losing her job. I don't appear to be up to date with this news.

I think you live in a wee fantasy world called Wishful Thinking, where you believe if Nicola is pushed out of her job, all those who want Independence will suddenly give up and become unionists. Dream on. The SNP and the Independence movement in general, is much more than one person. If Nicola did go, at any point, there are a plethora of others capable of taking over her position, immediately. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Mind you.....coming from a Bigly Trump fan.........

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## The Horseman

Read your own newspapers.
She lied as her husband pushed for the Enquiry into Salmond.  All over the press in the UK.

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## orkneycadian

Aye, a bit of a shoogly peg now.  What use is a 'forgetful' first minister?  Who decimates the Scottish economy in her quest to get to the top of the league table of "positive tests per 100,000" (she is in 2nd place at the moment) and then when its all a pile of poo, turns to Westminster to ask for money to pay for it all?

----------


## Fulmar

And yet she is still way more popular by a country mile than Boris- it must be so annoying for you.

----------


## The Horseman

> And yet she is still way more popular by a country mile than Boris- it must be so annoying for you.


Is she more popular?  It’s on a downward trend!  The appearance of text msgs from her husband demanding that the Enquiry into Salmond we intensified!  Coincidence!  It’s all there!  I read it in several of your papers.

----------


## dozy

It's all smoke and mirrors and diversion tactics to stop the public asking about meetings the Tories had with the police and crown office officials at Gleneagles . I which the sole topic was "Get Alex Salmond" and damage the SNP , Ruth ,Jackson and Mundell where there.  Just check their phone details ,which would have disappeared by now . That's where the so called decisions in witnesses tampering were taken. They were being coached into their false statements and ended up being found as lies in court. Never look at the person shouting " I seen it officer" as their 100% to do with it , Ruth Davidson is more the perpetrator than the victim.  So we're back to the Imperialism ,Colonist and Unionist cheerleaders mantra of " don't question us , we maybe rotten Tories But we like it ." And the Know your place . Boris counters with " tens of thousands have died through our mistakes or rotten handling of the situation ,but that's OK as it's just joe public . 
One thing has come form this ,more people you don't know or have ever meet hate you than would help you . Pity that disease is spreading at such a rate since Covid came along . No longer can folk see passed the baggage they carry, they're lost in the memories of days long passed and blinded to freedom of choice for brighter tomorrow's.

----------


## orkneycadian

> And yet she is still way more popular by a country mile than Boris- it must be so annoying for you.


A lot more annoying for all the businesses and livelihoods that are being flushed down the pan, as she continues to strive for having the most positive tests, the most job losses, the most pointless business closures.  She's doing not so bad on that.  Second only to Northern Ireland as of the other day.  One final push and she will be officially the worst one.

And you are right - Boris also has a lot to answer for in all this caper.  He really should have told Witless and Unbalanced to "go do one", instead of following their deeply flawed advice.  Its not done Boris any favours, I'll agree with you on that.

----------


## orkneycadian

> It's all smoke and mirrors and diversion tactics to stop the public asking about meetings the Tories had with the police and crown office officials at Gleneagles . I which the sole topic was "Get Alex Salmond" and damage the SNP , Ruth ,Jackson and Mundell where there.  Just check their phone details ,which would have disappeared by now . That's where the so called decisions in witnesses tampering were taken. They were being coached into their false statements and ended up being found as lies in court. Never look at the person shouting " I seen it officer" as their 100% to do with it , Ruth Davidson is more the perpetrator than the victim.  So we're back to the Imperialism ,Colonist and Unionist cheerleaders mantra of " don't question us , we maybe rotten Tories But we like it ." And the Know your place . Boris counters with " tens of thousands have died through our mistakes or rotten handling of the situation ,but that's OK as it's just joe public . 
> One thing has come form this ,more people you don't know or have ever meet hate you than would help you . Pity that disease is spreading at such a rate since Covid came along . No longer can folk see passed the baggage they carry, they're lost in the memories of days long passed and blinded to freedom of choice for brighter tomorrow's.


And now we see the consequences of closing the pubs at 1800 tonight - Earlier starting......

----------


## dozy

Orkneycadian. your must be getting through that moonshine quicker than we thought or is that Smoke that's blurring your vision. Not the first or last time Eh .

----------


## Oddquine

> And yet she is still way more popular by a country mile than Boris- it must be so annoying for you.


To be fair, Boris hasn't made being more popular than him a high bar to clear, has he?

----------


## Fulmar

True! I like the idea of Boris jumping over a high bar, I have to say. He did do the Boris bikes in London while he was mayor- that was actually good!

----------


## Oddquine

> True! I like the idea of Boris jumping over a high bar, I have to say. He did do the Boris bikes in London while he was mayor- that was actually good!



 Out of interest, in a 19 year political career between Westminster and London....what else has he done that was good bar the Boris Bikes (and even that was first proposed by Ken Livingstone in his manifesto for the 2008 Mayoral election)?

----------


## The Horseman

What really surprises me is the ‘lack of understanding’ of what The SNP Leadership is doing.....
High Flying with their Secret Celebrities etc etc!
Perhaps your a Weeker....that could explain it....he he!

----------


## orkneycadian

Thats possibly, Horseman, why they like to keep having the "rabble rousing" parades through towns and cities.  Keep a bit of the pack mentality going, get the Braveheart face paint on, blow a few bagpipes and try and keep their momentum going.  Diverts attention from what is going wrong at the top.  Bear in mind that many of the supporters are foccussed on a lot lower down than the leadership.  You probably wouldn't have seen the front page of the Daily Record in the lead up to the 2014 Neverendum.  A full page picture with 25 x £20 notes laid out in a fan, with the headline something along the lines of "£500 for every Scot if we vote YES!"  Now, this was based on some story inside the paper, where someone had worked out that Scotland would be better off to the tune of £2.75 billion if independent (Dianne Abbot did the sums for them.....) and divided by the population, that was £500 per person.  But an awful lot of folk thought that if they voted yes, then someone would come to their door with an envelope with £500 in cash in it.  Alas, it seems that some folk still think that, and the rabble rousing parades go someway to keeping that kind of belief going, whilst those at the top try to divert attention from whats really going on.

----------


## aqua

> And yet she is still way more popular by a country mile than Boris- it must be so annoying for you.


Yes indeed it must be. 

Nicolas place at the top of the table is safe. Theres no politician in Scotland who can touch her for now. Shell win big in the 2021 Holyrood election unless something totally unforeseen happens between now and then.

As Orkneycadian is presumably well aware, his cherry picked statistical comparison of England and Wales versus Scotland virus statistics dont mean a thing.

----------


## orkneycadian

> Nicola’s place at the top of the table is safe.


Until realisation dawns on so many of her supporters, that there is no envelope with 500 quid in it after all......

----------


## dozy

Come off it Orkneycadian. England and Westminster is a single party state Unionist . Where Scotland is a two party state Unionist and Nationalist . One lives on through the dirty deeds of yesterday and wraps itself in a colonist flag ,the other looks forward to a brighter future .  Some scots are waking up to Tory deception ,like the fishermen . The Tories sold them out before, all to get greater grants for their farmer friends and the same thing will happen again. The Tories are the ones handing out the 30 pieces of silver and the unionists hide behind a colonialist flag. The bad smell under your nose is the smell of a dead unionist party system ,not a death at the hands of the SNP but by the likes of Johnson ,Gove, Jacob Reece Mog . What will you do after the unionism has gone ,will you stand and stare into a coffin full of all the evil things it has done . Do you climb in and smother yourself in dark days long gone, because for you there'll never be a better tomorrow in an independent country.  For you to hate is not time wasted when it's the SNP that's in the firing line ,for the rest of us it's time lost when you could be making things better for yourself and the great community . Orkneycadian your a lost soul in a unionist sea , your mistake is they just needed your vote. I hope people feel sorry for you ,I do.

answer me this . Westminster pushed for Brexit , the EU being the larger part had no say or input . It was Westminster that used the media to win by hook or by crook or both . They stopped the EU from interfering , pity they had not given Scotland that same right . Westminster couldn't have taken any part in the Scottish referendum ,only parties inside Scotland could have . That's why the unionist and national parties would be the only two to choose from with no interference from outside. No media ,no Tory, no,labour and no Libs just the Yes and NO sides. I wonder how things would have worked out if the rules where the same for all.

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## orkneycadian

We can see now, Dozy, where some of your terrorism fixation comes from.  I see that you don't recognise individual political parties, but whether or not they are "freedom fighters" or peaceful folk living together in harmony.  Your post has chilling echoes of 1980s Northern Ireland.  So now, I see where your fixation comes from.  It still needs addressing, and I would urge you to seek the de-radicalisation help that you need, before your fixation develops into anything even more sinister.

Back in the real world, you will find more than 1 political party in England and Westminster, and more than 2 political parties in Scotland and Holyrood.  Pay more attention to the ballot paper next time, and you will see the names of the political parties alongside any candidate who is standing on a party ticket.  You might be surprised how many there are. Its part of a system we call "democracy", where the electorate gets their chance to vote on the make up of parliaments, or occasionally, to make choices in refernedums.  We have had 2 referendums recently - one in 2014 and one in 2016.  In those, the population made their choices.

And in relation to the last paragraph, which starts with "answer me this" - I would, but it doesn't pose any question to answer.  Just another incoherent rant, which, for a change doesn't contain references to colonists or terrorists.

In the meantime, you may find the following link helpful - https://www.counterterrorism.police....we-do/prevent/  If you need someone to refer you, there is at least 1 orger who is willing to do that, for the greater safety of the people of Caithness, Scotland and the UK.

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## dozy

the only name they would need is yours , you've already stated you have ammunition . You clearly stated you hate the scots. I know this "my name would never ever be on any list like the one you have stated" . If there's any knocking on doors it won't be on my door ,that I can guarantee .  I feel sorry for folk that follow a dead ideal saddled to the back of party system that had its day.  If being in a union ( EU) is wrong for England ,it's wrong for Scotland to be in one with England . It's that old chestnut " Choice" and in Scotland it's the people that's sovereign . Westminster is a circus run by clowns and the egg is on your face not mine. .

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## The Horseman

Dozy,
U may conveniently forget the ‘mess’ that the SNP is in now........
The ‘lurid’ details brought out in Court, and in this most recent enquiry with ‘secret guests’, Dining and drinking on the poor people of Scotland, would I am sure give them some doubts!

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## Fulmar

Well, on the BBC Scotland website this morning (the much maligned BBC that very many on here seem to dislike), there is a report and analysis on support for Independence. All polls recently/this year have shown a surge in support and the latest one puts it at 58% and that is partly put down to respect for Nicola Sturgeon. Even among those who voted 'no', respect and satisfaction with her for the way she has handled the epidemic is substantial and indeed, it may be the reason why some original 'no' voters have changed their minds. The majority of older voters still want to remain in the Union but amongst the young, well it is solidly for Independence. Whatever we all voted before in 2014, these figures can't be ignored and the pressure for another vote is and will become unstoppable- and if you first and foremost believe in democracy, then that is only right. That is my view anyway.

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## The Horseman

I write about what I see and read about in the Media!
The BBC copies CNN articles, sometimes verbatim! At times 5 to 7 Anti Prez Trump stories each day.....why would they take such a stance on another Countries Politics, particularly a ‘friendly’ Nation!
Then I read ‘The Shenanigans‘ with the SNP.  How was a man, the Leader of Scotland, charged with over a Dozen Sex charge and was exonerated, and in addition a huge sum if money was paid to him for a wrongful investigation!
And now ‘The Stuff‘ coming out about the Present ‘First Minister’ back stabbing him, forgetfulness?....yes... so it’s being described as, and her Husband sending Texts to get on/ hurry up with the enquiry! It belies the mind that this is a true Democracy, where people should put their trust in their Leaders.
I do agree that No Democracy is perfect...BUT...I feel something is wrong here!
Then the ‘once in a lifetime’ INDYREF was held, and it was turned down!
I have no vested interest in the results, but knowing a ‘wee bitty’ about My Country.....there is something wrong!
Would you not concur!  Ty.

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## orkneycadian

> the only name they would need is yours , you've already stated you have ammunition . You clearly stated you hate the scots. I know this "my name would never ever be on any list like the one you have stated" . If there's any knocking on doors it won't be on my door ,that I can guarantee .  I feel sorry for folk that follow a dead ideal saddled to the back of party system that had its day.  If being in a union ( EU) is wrong for England ,it's wrong for Scotland to be in one with England . It's that old chestnut " Choice" and in Scotland it's the people that's sovereign . Westminster is a circus run by clowns and the egg is on your face not mine. .


Another one saved from the Delete button....

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## The Horseman

Can anyone, ‘objectively’ tell me what is going on in Scotland.
I read lots, and it seems there is much ‘bad feeling and actions’ amongst all parties involved.
Will they ever get out of this mess with The First Minister, and all the rest of the ‘hangers on’?
It seems everyone has a grudge, a big paying job and perks that outmatch anything in the Public Sector.
Ty....

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## dozy

ask orkneycadian ,he seems to be a Boris cheerleader and therefore has the PMs ear. Go Boris ,go Boris .

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## Shabbychic

> Can anyone, objectively tell me what is going on in Scotland.
> I read lots, and it seems there is much bad feeling and actions amongst all parties involved.
> Will they ever get out of this mess with The First Minister, and all the rest of the hangers on?
> It seems everyone has a grudge, a big paying job and perks that outmatch anything in the Public Sector.
> Ty....


In a nutshell, Westminster is panicking because more and more voters in Scotland are leaning towards Independence. They can't afford to lose Scotland, as contrary to what they claim, they wouldn't do too well financially without us. They are now working on a strategy to, first of all, get rid of Nicola Sturgeon, as she is getting too popular. Next, they want infighting within the SNP, to discredit them, in the hope they will lose the next election. Finally, the main aim is to stop Independence at all costs. This is one of the reasons you can't trust anything you read or hear from the UK media, as they mostly appear to be controlled from Westminster nowadays, which explains all the negative stories you have been talking about in previous posts.


*This is their latest strategy*.

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## The Horseman

OK.....I can understand the Media dis/mis-information.
Most of the Media are the same, wherever you go. Sad isn't it!
My thoughts are Scotland should stay, but I believe you.......
TY.....

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## dozy

It's far more sinister than you have posted, Westminster is far from being scared. They control the media ( half of the Westminster minsters partners control the newspapers or TV ) so brainwashing is on a daily cycle. It's their message or no message , truth is nowhere to be found. Unionism is the worst form of terrorism , its lasted for over three hundred years . Scotland will never get its freedom as the Westminster machine needs it's last colony to show its supremacy in the world. It's that illegal and abusive sabre rattling that unionists love to wrap themselves in, like an old blanket from a long lost past where warped memories hide the truth. The SNP have been barking up the wrong tree for years and that suits the unionists. Politics is a dirty game and they don't come any dirtier than the Scottish unionists parties ,be that Tory, Labour or Libs . 
We now have the Westminster cheerleaders using the cover of Covid to push through laws that makes Russia look more democratic and hides the truth and dirty tricks about Brexit . Please don't think that's Nicola's rise will help the independence journey ,it's just makes her a bigger target and a jumped up peasant that needs to be put down . Assignation by media still has the same effect as any billet. The SNP are in the unionist sights and the rise of the Yes vote sounds big trouble is in the wind and you don't get more wind than Boris. What people don't get ,it's not about stopping independence ,it's about removing their right to Choose and stopping a countries  people from a different future . I don't want to change the route England has choosen ,that's their choice . They shouldn't have any say in what direction or future Scotland wants . I fear for Nicola and fear for Scotland as the angry unionists will stop at nothing to keep the status quo. It's wrong that Scotland have to ask for freedom and its worse that England say NO ,it's a fundamental right to be free. Unionism is not freedom ,it's imperialism wrapped in a flag of abuse masquerading as an act of a one sided union.

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## The Horseman

Unionism is worse than Terrorism!  I do declare ‘you are quite wrong’!
And.........The SNP is not looking good right now.   No Siree Bob!   (A quaint saying’!

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## dozy

The horseman. Your trying to defend the indefensible ,they don't come worse than Westminster . A lot of people are now beginning to fell sorry for unionists. Its like watching the death throws of a long brain dead dinosaur ,twitching too its end.
What will you do when independence is here ( if your in Scotland ) would you leave ? would you stay ? And if you stay what would you do politically. 
Lastly will you be wearing your Westminsters cheerleader custom tonight and carrying the grim reapers sickle and dripping from the blood of all the folk the Tories have put on the ground in the last 11 years in power. We can skip the mess they've made of Everything else. Putting that aside ,have a great and safe weekend.

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## Fulmar

Well, a good Halloween post dozy!

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## The Horseman

> The horseman. Your trying to defend the indefensible ,they don't come worse than Westminster . A lot of people are now beginning to fell sorry for unionists. Its like watching the death throws of a long brain dead dinosaur ,twitching too its end.
> What will you do when independence is here ( if your in Scotland ) would you leave ? would you stay ? And if you stay what would you do politically. 
> Lastly will you be wearing your Westminsters cheerleader custom tonight and carrying the grim reapers sickle and dripping from the blood of all the folk the Tories have put on the ground in the last 11 years in power. We can skip the mess they've made of Everything else. Putting that aside ,have a great and safe weekend.


******* I was’t comparing the SNP to anything/anybody!  I said things don't look too good for them.
I am not in Scotland, just watching the shenanigans, and you are all paying ‘big bucks’ for the Team.
And.........Dripping blood and sickles!  Oh Dear!

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## dozy

Like many unionist / Westminster supporters ,they have no investment in the land or its heritage so no family deep roots .It's just another piece of ground that's there for the using and some subservient pesants to do your bidding . Same old same old . Whatever Scotland is doing or not doing is nothing to do with the bag of testicles Boris is swinging and passing off as a cabinet.   What was Boris's call to arms "bring back control " how's that working out . The Russians and Chinese must be laughing their heads off , UK is sinking , Europe is over attack and America has finally come to terms that all that steroids don't make you smart . The UK is finished ,not by the hand of some foreign power but by the Tories the king rat of the unionists. They've been filling their pockets with taxpayers money for years and then the unionists get the last call ,in the middle of all this hell the Tories can fill their stomachs with free booze and steak . Yet the kids can eat dirt ,nothing changes . The people will never learn ,it's like 1934-39 all over again but it's the unionists doing the Propoganda and manipulation . More more need for bullets or tanks ,just a virus and some Tory insiders in a pantomine wooden horse.  Westminster looks hellbent on committing suicide so please don't try to take the rest of us with you . It's Scotlands time and right to be free . Friends we can be through choice ,we don't deserve to be abused or victims any longer.

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## The Horseman

Honestly, I do think you have a very ‘jaundiced’ view of the World.
The UK had it’s day, the same as The Romans, The Vikings......now America.  Now there is another fight for World dominance, and my thought is that Countries that are ‘attached’ should support each other!  It’s a simple concept..
No Gov’t is perfect, but they can supplement/enhance each other.
U slag the Tories......take a look at your own people people in Gov’t!  Entertaining nightly, with Anon Celebrities, on your £?    Is what they have done acceptable.   Don't compare it with anyone else!
And......Brits don’t use drugs...just the Yanks!   Come on Dozy..........your own SNP Govt is not doing well......
Why not get the Country doing well, and then fight these battles.....you already had one, ‘a once in a lifetime’ deal.
It’s over...so is the oil!   We have the same prob in Alberta........

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## dozy

Your bringing things to a skewed table , if all things were equal but there not . Scotland are doing its best with their hands tied behind its back , that's down to Westminster plain and simple.  Scotland will have to learn to be uncumbered by the chains and the weight of 3 hundred years of being subservient . Just like your children when they first leave home ,you love and fear for they at the same time . It's only right they get their freedom ,to choose and make mistakes . Your not there to threaten, abuse or rub their nose in it when things go wrong.  Scotland deserves their freedom and for those who don't want to see that happen shame on them , it says more about them and the type of people they are. My view is that we all should be free to choose and all countries must be free to choose their own path without interference . No one has the right to rule or reign over another country for any reason . Thats just wrong ,if it's right for your children it can't be wrong for me or my country.  No one should have to ask for freedom , its not yours or Westminsters to take mine. Just like  Westminsters and unionists must except that time is over . If we can't see a free Scotland we will never see equality for women or people of colour.  Standing in the way is abuse ,standing in the way and shouting NO Never makes you an abuser. Please don't anyone join that group ,stand aside shake their hand as a friend wish them well. Friends are only friends when they stand as equals, seperate but with respect.  Sorry But I've got to go now ,I wish you all the best and keep safe . 
The northern lights are dancing.

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## The Horseman

Equality of race and Gender......give me/us all ‘A break’!  Abuse.......
Honestly, your arguments don't make sense.
I read today that The UK are going to give u a big sum of money.......and u will be staying....Comments?
Same compliments to you....just remember Donald Trump’s Mother was from The Western Isles. 

********And for those on Youtube.....please watch...Donald’s Bible..Dr Clarence Sexton......th

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## Fulmar

It has never happened so far throughout the history of humankind but under the utopia of an independent Scotland.......?

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## The Horseman

> It has never happened so far throughout the history of humankind but under the utopia of an independent Scotland.......?


What do u mean?

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## ecb

Boris Johnson has nominated businessman Peter Cruddas for a peerage, despite his rejection by the honours watchdog.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55414981

This news has not been received well in some quarters.

Earlier this year Jo Johnson, the prime minister's younger brother was given a peerage:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53606083

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## Gronnuck

> Boris Johnson has nominated businessman Peter Cruddas for a peerage, despite his rejection by the honours watchdog.
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55414981
> 
> This news has not been received well in some quarters.
> 
> Earlier this year Jo Johnson, the prime minister's younger brother was given a peerage:
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53606083


This is further proof, as if it were needed, of the undermining of democracy in the UK. Of over 1400 parliamentarians in Westminster, less than half, 650, are elected.  The rest are Peers who reside in the House of Lords, the largest unelected institution outside China.  Time to dissolve this toxic union.

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## ecb

"Boris Johnson says indyref vote should be once-in-generation

... Speaking on the BBC's Andrew Marr programme, the prime minister said the gap between referendums on Europe - the first in 1975 and the second in 2016 - was "a good sort of gap".":

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-55521732

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## Gronnuck

> "Boris Johnson says indyref vote should be once-in-generation
> 
> ... Speaking on the BBC's Andrew Marr programme, the prime minister said the gap between referendums on Europe - the first in 1975 and the second in 2016 - was "a good sort of gap".":
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-55521732


Boris Johnson and the BBC have lost all credibility over this last year; Boris with his flim-flam, U-turns and incoherent ramblings; the BBC with its avoidance of reporting anything like the truth as experienced by ordinary people in their communities.
As for the once in a generation quote it as no relevance what-so-ever.  It was a rhetorical flourish to encourage the people of Scotland to come out and vote, it was incredibly successful in getting 85% of the electorate to exercise their franchise.  The quote was never recorded as part of the Smith Commission post-referendum Report. 
In fact, the Smith Commission did report that, It was also agreed that nothing in the Commissions report prevented Scotland becoming an independent country in the future should it so choose.
Andrew Marr is just another mediocre BBC hack who muddles along doing whatever people tell him to do through his earpiece.
If were honest we are never going to get any positive reporting of Scotland, its people and their ambitions emanating from the London-centric main stream media.

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## aqua

Andrew Marr may be many things, but Id never describe him as a mediocre BBC hack.

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## Fulmar

Well, it was on the BBC that I first heard a report that recent polls now show that 58% of Scottish population sample who were asked are in favour of independence. 
However, I agree that Boris has lost all credibility (and there never was any so far as I was concerned) as have all the rest of 'em down there! I was pleased to hear (again on the BBC) that polls suggest that if there was a GA tomorrow, the best the Tories could hope for would be a hung parliament and they are fast losing those who swung to them in the north of England last time around.
I think that people hear what they want to hear, whatever media they happen to listen to or read or whatever. I continue to learn a lot of good stuff from the BBC and will keep on tuning in and am now enjoying the new Attenborough Planet series.

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## mi16

I believe Alex salmond said something similar circa 2014

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## Corky Smeek

> I believe Alex salmond said something similar circa 2014


Not similar at all actually. Where and when did AS say that there should be 41 years between IndyRefs?  Where and when has anyone ever argued that a generation was defined as roughly 40 years?

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## Oddquine

> Not similar at all actually. Where and when did AS say that there should be 41 years between IndyRefs?  Where and when has anyone ever argued that a generation was defined as roughly 40 years?


How come Northern Ireland gets to vote on leaving the UK to reunite with the Republic every 7 years if they want, but we have to wait decades to do the same according to some unionists?   

Is it that there's a built-in Unionist get out clause in respect of NI...given it is up to the Secretary of State for Northern  Ireland to call a referendum, with a duty to do so at any time it  appears likely that a majority would favour a united Ireland.....but the Secretary of State has no more obligation to take any notice of polls, or votes in favour of reunification in the Assembly, than the UK Government has to take any heed of the SG pleading for a Section 30 order for an indyref2, however many election mandates to do so they receive.  

There's more than one way to lock prison doors to prevent escape, it seems.

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## The Horseman

OQ......Perhaps the Irish are a ‘Tad’ more Persuasive, if you know what I mean.
The Scots have become ‘Gentlepeople’!

In an address and Somewhat Sermon in the US, The Speaker said.......AMEN, followed by AWOMEN......now that is Politically correct?
Yes/No!   Emojee would be good here!

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## Fulmar

I am glad then that in Scotland we are 'Gentlepeople' as the situation in the US is terrifying. Above all else, we need to trust and support democracy otherwise we are sunk and try our best to say things that are factually true so far as it is in our ability to judge that.

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## ecb

Coronavirus: Boris Johnson criticised over bike ride seven miles from home:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55620138

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## Corky Smeek

All Papers - Boris not criticised over 400 mile, unnecessary trip to Glasgow.

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## Corky Smeek

To think that this man is our Prime Minister. Just shambolic and embarrassing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59373237

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## Corky Smeek

Chris Patten is an ex-chair of the Conservative Party. He was interviewed recently by Andrew Marr on LBC and it was fascinating and at the same time blood-chillingly scary to hear his take on Boris Johnson and the current Tory government.

The following is an excerpt from the interview.

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