# General > Politics >  Our new MPS first speech in westminster :

## rob murray

A wee clip from our new MPS first speech in westminster : 

"The clearances were perpetrated during the 18th and 19thcenturies when highlanders were forced from land they had held for generations.The clearances shifted land use from farming to sheep raising because sheep wereconsidered more valuable than people. In the process, a way of life wasexterminated to further the financial ambitions of aristocratic landowners. Theevictions that took place are remembered for their brutality and for theabruptness of the social change that they prompted. At the time this Parliamentcompounded the inequity by implementing legislation to prohibit the use of theGaelic language, the playing of bagpipes and even the wearing of tartan. Thecumulative effect devastated the cultural landscape of the counties that Irepresent and the resulting impact destroyed much of Scotlands Gaelic culture".

Ok Paul...the act you refered to , the act of proscription was repealed in 1782...the Caithness clearances ( Reay ) mild clearances, at that, took place in the 1790's and the barbaric clearances of Sutherland / Wester Ross did not start until 1809, Caithness was never ever a gael county either..where have you been min....we never wanted gaelic road signs in Caithness !!!! ....If  the guy is going to  use history he should get his  facts right min !!!! 

If your interested in the full speech see


http://www.chagossupport.org.uk/snps-dr-paul-monaghan-speaks-on-chagossian-exile-in-parliament-3482

----------


## cptdodger

I am not by any means a political person, but is this Paul Monaghan not a member of the Scottish National Party, and MSP for this area? If so, what on earth is he doing going on about a group of Islands in the Indian Ocean? Do we not have enough problems here he should be concentrating on?

----------


## sids

> I am not by any means a political person, but is this Paul Monaghan not a member of the Scottish National Party, and MSP for this area? If so, what on earth is he doing going on about a group of Islands in the Indian Ocean? Do we not have enough problems here he should be concentrating on?


He's a member of the Opposition in the parliament of the UK.  It would be a bit of a disgrace, were he to be disinterested in World affairs.

----------


## sids

I don't see why Gaelic road signs can't be proscribed, along with tartan trews and chanter music.

----------


## rob murray

> He's a member of the Opposition in the parliament of the UK.  It would be a bit of a disgrace, were he to be disinterested in World affairs.


Yep...but he is historicaly inaccurate alleging that  gaeldom was detroyed by english laws, this is a myth, are we to belive that the act was not resisted that the Gaels meekly rolled over and complied ???? P lenty of historicalevidence illustrates how the Gaels resisted the act, very actively. The period after culloden up to 1752 illustrates an active resistance movement against the oppressors.  As a nationalist surely he should know his basic history. The gaeldom way of life incidentally was dying out before the clearances, and arguably the clan system was being discarded prior to and immediatly after culloden,  the clearances affected only 1 part of his own consituency..Sutherland which were barbaric...but other areas suffered just as bad as well

----------


## cptdodger

> He's a member of the Opposition in the parliament of the UK.  It would be a bit of a disgrace, were he to be disinterested in World affairs.


And did all the people who voted for him and the SNP not expect them to improve things here? Was that part of their manifesto ?

----------


## rob murray

> I don't see why Gaelic road signs can't be proscribed, along with tartan trews and chanter music.


Fine but plenty of Caithness people didnt want dual English / Gaelic road signs did they ???  Cos they see themselves as being of norse descent..ie not Gaels. Caithness was never a Gael county...ever

----------


## rob murray

What a man....he also refers to civil rights movement in the US and the Roosevelt new deal........"As a child I learned of the bravery of Rosa Parks and how she changed the world,( she didnt ! )  and as an adult I learned of the personal challenges met and overcome, and of the uncommon political imagination of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. ( Look closer to home Paul....Labours Clem Atlee.....did more in 5 years than the SNP could do in 50 years  : how about creating the welfare state / NHS )  In those individuals I found examples not only of bravery but of imagination; the imagination to perceive the benefit of change in a world that aspires to achieve, not receive.Many of those who supported me on 7 May did so in the belief that it is now time to achieve, and their uncommon political imagination sits around me today. Our aim is to achieve the right to build a fairer Scotland; we aim to establish a state of affairs where our old, our disadvantaged and our vulnerable are valued, and where our poor are protected not punished.I made the decision to stand for election to this Parliament knowing, as Mrs Parks did, that “I had the strength of my ancestors with me”

 Puuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuke and waffle !! And achieve what exactly Paul my boy.....this is nothing more than pro independance dribble.....dont expect this geezer to be active in working with businesses / promoting and selling Caithness / moving and shaking you know....bringing new industries / jobs to the area....voters...youve been sold a pup....this guy is a misty eyed sentamentalist...we needed a more switched on person with real vision and drive...go out and get em.....tackle post Dounreay Caithness and North Sutherland issues ( the new clearances )....now Scots wah hae.............absolute cringe worthy garbage

----------


## Bystander1

Now Rob Murray, Dr Mogadon has already increased employment in the North. Has he not taken his brother off the dole and given him a highly technical job involving Skype & internet things etc etc. At our expense of course. He did save a few groats on advertising the job of course, his own Facebook page was sufficient. None of these expensive ads in the press for our Doactor.

----------


## rob murray

> Now Rob Murray, Dr Mogadon has already increased employment in the North. Has he not taken his brother off the dole and given him a highly technical job involving Skype & internet things etc etc. At our expense of course. He did save a few groats on advertising the job of course, his own Facebook page was sufficient. None of these expensive ads in the press for our Doactor.


lol lol lol  : The good doctor is typical "new" SNP ie will always deal in marquee politics - looks great outside,but it's empty underneath. They take the view that most folk only look at the headlines, they don't read the actual story tabloid politics....ie Man eats house...........grab the headline and then dont read the actual story  nor bother to check out the actual facts. Therefore stuff like the Clearances etc etc is fair gameto them, it's a signifier that SOMETHING IMPORTANT must be being discussed without going to the effort of actually pushing things forward... cos progress means the system works. What a bunch of con artists eh...at least the nasty party stand for something..know what... this Scots wah hae dribble, only true Scots are yes voters, only party that represents Scotland is the SNP...freedom......... is really getting on my wick.

----------


## Shaggy

oh dear.......you didn't vote for SNP but you continue to moan and whinge about them.....you didn't vote for independence yet you continue to utter the drivel that "would" have been and not content with what Scotland has to "put up with" you continuously belittle the Scottish govt and the SNP MP's. I take it there isn't anything you like about Caithness or Scotland for that matter?? If you don't like it, there's always the road south. Oh and don't forget to pack your PC and take a few "friends" with you too otherwise we'll miss the banter on e' org. Meanwhile, i have some paint to apply and watch drying.

----------


## rob murray

> oh dear.......you didn't vote for SNP but you continue to moan and whinge about them.....you didn't vote for independence yet you continue to utter the drivel that "would" have been and not content with what Scotland has to "put up with" you continuously belittle the Scottish govt and the SNP MP's. I take it there isn't anything you like about Caithness or Scotland for that matter?? If you don't like it, there's always the road south. Oh and don't forget to pack your PC and take a few "friends" with you too otherwise we'll miss the banter on e' org. Meanwhile, i have some paint to apply and watch drying.


Yep of course Im wrong yor right

----------


## cptdodger

> oh dear.......you didn't vote for SNP but you continue to moan and whinge about them.....you didn't vote for independence yet you continue to utter the drivel that "would" have been and not content with what Scotland has to "put up with" you continuously belittle the Scottish govt and the SNP MP's. I take it there isn't anything you like about Caithness or Scotland for that matter?? If you don't like it, there's always the road south. Oh and don't forget to pack your PC and take a few "friends" with you too otherwise we'll miss the banter on e' org. Meanwhile, i have some paint to apply and watch drying.


I did'nt vote for Independence, or the SNP either, how do you take from that, that I do'nt like Caithness or Scotland? I take it we still live in a democracy? If so why should I be forced out of my own country where I was born and have spent the majority of my life in, because I disagree with the SNP'S policies ?

----------


## golach

> I did'nt vote for Independence, or the SNP either, how do you take from that, that I do'nt like Caithness or Scotland? I take it we still live in a democracy? If so why should I be forced out of my own country where I was born and have spent the majority of my life in, because I disagree with the SNP'S policies ?


Could not put it better or more clearly myself, when I see 100% of Scots voting for the Nats, ....then I may think I could be persuaded to change my mind, maybe even my address. But until that happens I will be a Kaitness born, ex pat anti Nat for as long as I can see.

----------


## sids

> Fine but plenty of Caithness people didnt want dual English / Gaelic road signs did they ???  Cos they see themselves as being of norse descent..ie not Gaels. Caithness was never a Gael county...ever


Am I confusing people?

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...lish/proscribe




> Forbid, especially by law:
> strikes remained proscribed in the armed forces

----------


## Shaggy

> Yep of course Im wrong yor right


I'm not right, nor are you wrong....No, actually... you are right for a change......but why bother......just nipping out to see if that paint has dried in the rain

----------


## BetterTogether

Has anyone bothered to tell Mr Monaghan that we are now in the 21st century and harping on about past injustices which are no longer relevant to the modern world does nothing to promote this area. 
If the very best he can manage is to waffle on about incidents which happened centuries ago then maybe he hasn't sufficient grasp on what is relevant to today's modern society. Let's see some real action from him to deal with the problems facing Caithness and Sutherland now and in the future.
Wasting hard earned tax payers money on forcing Gaelic signs on everyone and insisting teachers have knowledge of Gaelic is not going to make the area prosperous and not going to substantially improve the welfare of the areas most deprived, the elderly or the unemployed.
What we need to hear from Mr Monaghan is how he intends to promote this area and work for everyone of his constituents to make the area a place which is better for all of us to live in.

As for employing his brother didn't we have that taken care of in the last expenses scandal with Mps not allowed to employ family members, I could be wrong on that but it's not really setting the right example.

Simple advice would be leave History to Historians.

----------


## Rheghead

> Has anyone bothered to tell Mr Monaghan that we are now in the 21st century and harping on about past injustices which are no longer relevant to the modern world does nothing to promote this area. 
> If the very best he can manage is to waffle on about incidents which happened centuries ago then maybe he hasn't sufficient grasp on what is relevant to today's modern society. Let's see some real action from him to deal with the problems facing Caithness and Sutherland now and in the future.
> Wasting hard earned tax payers money on forcing Gaelic signs on everyone and insisting teachers have knowledge of Gaelic is not going to make the area prosperous and not going to substantially improve the welfare of the areas most deprived, the elderly or the unemployed.
> What we need to hear from Mr Monaghan is how he intends to promote this area and work for everyone of his constituents to make the area a place which is better for all of us to live in.
> 
> As for employing his brother didn't we have that taken care of in the last expenses scandal with Mps not allowed to employ family members, I could be wrong on that but it's not really setting the right example.
> 
> *Simple advice would be leave History to Historians.*


I believe the general consensus amongst historians is that Scotland is still living with the injustices of The Clearances.  Any other opinion is simply out of touch.

----------


## sids

> I believe the general consensus amongst historians is that Scotland is still living with the injustices of The Clearances.  Any other opinion is simply out of touch.


Do you want to live on a 19th Century croft, up west?

If not, then the injustices of the clearances may not be all that relevant to you.

----------


## golach

> I believe the general consensus amongst historians is that Scotland is still living with the injustices of The Clearances.  Any other opinion is simply out of touch.


I was brought up in the highlands, but live in the Lowlands, the clearances had no affect on me, I live in today's world, not in history, just remind us where you were born Rheg?

----------


## cptdodger

> I believe the general consensus amongst historians is that Scotland is still living with the injustices of The Clearances.  Any other opinion is simply out of touch.


I'm the other way round from Golach, I was born and brought up in the lowlands and live here now. I do'nt honestly think the whole of Scotland is still living with the injustices of The Clearances, in fact I never knew anything about them until I moved here, no mention was ever made of it at my school, and I quite liked history. I know people are still resentful, I mentioned a few years back I was going to visit Dunrobin Castle, and it was as if I was committing a crime going there. It was an awful thing that happened, but you are talking about something that happened two centuries ago.

----------


## squidge

Goodness me have none of you been watching the goings on in Westminster.

 if you were you would of course know that the Maiden Speech is a peculiar animal and that there is - as with everything in that place- a set of traditions around it. It has to be uncontroversial, it has to pay tribute to the previous MP and it has to talk about the history of the constituency, its features and its issues and a bit of personal stuff about the MP themselves. 

How could the MP for Caithness and SUTHERLAND ignore the clearances when talking about his constituency. He couldn't. If Rosa Parks and the chagossians influenced him more than Keir Hardy then why should he not talk about them? I would respectfully suggest that it doesn't look like Keir Hardy had much influence on today's Labour Party Either given the news they will not oppose the Tory cuts to tax credits and the benefit cap.

Finally the other thing about the maiden speech is that until it is done an MP cannot speak in parliament on any matter. So  no interventions, no questions. Only after a maiden speech is done can an MP participate fully in the business of the house apparently. 

Hope that clears a few things up for folks  :Smile:

----------


## Fulmar

_the Maiden Speech is a peculiar animal and that there is - as with everything in that place- a set of traditions around it. 

_It's no wonder then that no one bothers listening to them and other than conferring on the new MPs the right to speak in the house, they might as well save their breath. 
Dr Ms speech was an embarrassment and would be laughable had it not been a serious matter. I for one 'don't buy it' as the saying goes and would have hoped for something much more pithy and relevant so not a good start in my view.

----------


## richardj

squidge, thanks for that, it helped clear up a lot about the maiden speech by our MP, not that I voted for him, but I did think he is/was a decent candidate who will now make a good MP.

----------


## Scout

> Goodness me have none of you been watching the goings on in Westminster.
> 
>  if you were you would of course know that the Maiden Speech is a peculiar animal and that there is - as with everything in that place- a set of traditions around it. It has to be uncontroversial, it has to pay tribute to the previous MP and it has to talk about the history of the constituency, its features and its issues and a bit of personal stuff about the MP themselves. 
> 
> How could the MP for Caithness and SUTHERLAND ignore the clearances when talking about his constituency. He couldn't. If Rosa Parks and the chagossians influenced him more than Keir Hardy then why should he not talk about them? I would respectfully suggest that it doesn't look like Keir Hardy had much influence on today's Labour Party Either given the news they will not oppose the Tory cuts to tax credits and the benefit cap.
> 
> Finally the other thing about the maiden speech is that until it is done an MP cannot speak in parliament on any matter. So  no interventions, no questions. Only after a maiden speech is done can an MP participate fully in the business of the house apparently. 
> 
> Hope that clears a few things up for folks


 Pitty he did not mention the black slave trade Scotland was involved with :-)

----------


## cptdodger

[QUOTE=squidge;1123858]

How could the MP for Caithness and SUTHERLAND ignore the clearances when talking about his constituency. He couldn't. 

Are you trying to tell me, in the entire history of Caithness and Sutherland, The Clearances are the only thing of note that happened here? Is there nothing else worth mentioning ?

----------


## rob murray

> Goodness me have none of you been watching the goings on in Westminster.
> 
>  if you were you would of course know that the Maiden Speech is a peculiar animal and that there is - as with everything in that place- a set of traditions around it. It has to be uncontroversial, it has to pay tribute to the previous MP and it has to talk about the history of the constituency, its features and its issues and a bit of personal stuff about the MP themselves. 
> 
> How could the MP for Caithness and SUTHERLAND ignore the clearances when talking about his constituency. He couldn't. If Rosa Parks and the chagossians influenced him more than Keir Hardy then why should he not talk about them? I would respectfully suggest that it doesn't look like Keir Hardy had much influence on today's Labour Party Either given the news they will not oppose the Tory cuts to tax credits and the benefit cap.
> 
> Finally the other thing about the maiden speech is that until it is done an MP cannot speak in parliament on any matter. So  no interventions, no questions. Only after a maiden speech is done can an MP participate fully in the business of the house apparently. 
> 
> Hope that clears a few things up for folks


Thanks for the consitutional clarification, now Compare Charles Kennedys maiden speech with our SNP MP's : read http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...f-Commons.html : Kennedys consituency suffered equally through the clearance impact his speech raises pertinent political issues based on the key issues of the day....

----------


## rob murray

[QUOTE=cptdodger;1123871]


> How could the MP for Caithness and SUTHERLAND ignore the clearances when talking about his constituency. He couldn't. 
> 
> Are you trying to tell me, in the entire history of Caithness and Sutherland, The Clearances are the only thing of note that happened here? Is there nothing else worth mentioning ?


There were very little clearances per se in Caithness, only "issues" happened in Reay c 1795 and cannot be compared with the very harsh treatment dished out in Sutherland ie wholesale burnings and destruction of peoples croft houses, he couldve have paid tribute to the resistance of crofters ( led largely my women ) who embarressed the then government into passing the crofters land act 1886 : The Act was largely a result of crofters' agitation which had become well organised and very persistent in Skye (then in the county of Inverness-shire) and of growing support, throughout the Highlands, for the Crofters' Party, which had gained five Members of Parliament in the general election of 1885. Agitation took the form of rent strikes (withholding rent payments) and what came to be known as land raids: crofter occupations of land to which crofters believed they should have access for common grazing or for new crofts, but which landlords had given over to sheep farming and hunting parks (called deer forests). This is real example of triumphying in the face of advertisty is part of Gael history, the way the good Doctor tells it, we, the native highlanders, rolled over and were annahilated by land owning aristoctrats...not at all historically accurate Im afraid.....Ironically the sheep farms were near bankrupt ny the end of the c19th century as cheaper better wool / meat came form NZ and Austrlia from sheep farms irononically owned and worked on by emmigrant cleared scots....sweet justice eh !

----------


## spurtle

[QUOTE=rob murray;1123873]


> There were very little clearances per se in Caithness, only "issues" happened in Reay c 1795 and cannot be compared with the very harsh treatment dished out in Sutherland ie wholesale burnings and destruction of peoples croft houses, he couldve have paid tribute to the resistance of crofters ( led largely my women ) who embarressed the then government into passing the crofters land act 1886 : The Act was largely a result of crofters' agitation which had become well organised and very persistent in Skye (then in the county of Inverness-shire) and of growing support, throughout the Highlands, for the Crofters' Party, which had gained five Members of Parliament in the general election of 1885. Agitation took the form of rent strikes (withholding rent payments) and what came to be known as land raids: crofter occupations of land to which crofters believed they should have access for common grazing or for new crofts, but which landlords had given over to sheep farming and hunting parks (called deer forests). This is real example of triumphying in the face of advertisty is part of Gael history, the way the good Doctor tells it, we, the native highlanders, rolled over and were annahilated by land owning aristoctrats...not at all historically accurate Im afraid.....Ironically the sheep farms were near bankrupt ny the end of the c19th century as cheaper better wool / meat came form NZ and Austrlia from sheep farms irononically owned and worked on by emmigrant cleared scots....sweet justice eh !


Also , ironically , those cheaper sheep in Aus and NZ had been raised on land that had evicted the indigenous population to make way for sheep - never hear that one do we?

----------


## cptdodger

> Thanks for the consitutional clarification, now Compare Charles Kennedys maiden speech with our SNP MP's : read http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...f-Commons.html : Kennedys consituency suffered equally through the clearance impact his speech raises pertinent political issues based on the key issues of the day....


Exactly, his speech was relevant to the issues of the day, issues I might add are still very relevant to this day. In (at the most) twenty years, when Dounreay closes its doors for the last time, what's going to happen? What are the SNP doing to get a replacement for this large employer ? They cannot wait until it has gone, by then it will be far too late.

----------


## cptdodger

[QUOTE=spurtle;1123874]


> Also , ironically , those cheaper sheep in Aus and NZ had been raised on land that had evicted the indigenous population to make way for sheep - never hear that one do we?


I was just going to say, I did'nt write that, my knowledge of the Clearances is basic at best. If you are referring to the Aborigines, then I think their plight is well documented.

I think something is going wrong with the quotes, Rob did'nt write that, it was Spurtle !

----------


## rob murray

[QUOTE=cptdodger;1123877]


> I was just going to say, I did'nt write that, my knowledge of the Clearances is basic at best. If you are referring to the Aborigines, then I think their plight is well documented.


NO sorry  I didnt mean the indigenous Autralian population but the success of sheep farms in Australia / NZ was heaviliy progressed by emmigre scots ie people cleared from their land here or who left Scotland for a better life thats all. The UHI have a lot of interesting research work going at the moment into various factors of the clearances, what is very interesting is the role women ( the widows of scots killed serving their country, and crofters wifes : people know about the role women and the WW1 Glasgow rent strikes.... ut there soon gonna know about the Gael women ) played in the lead upto the crofters act.......a great starting point on the clearnances is to get or read on line......... Donald Macleods Gloomy memories, if you live in Wick the library holds the actual printed transcripts behind the parliamentary commission that lead the the passing of the Crofters act. I am anorak enough to confess reading through them and have had a copy of Donald Macleaods book for over 30 years as Highland history is one of my lifes passions. Macleaod was a stone mason who lived in a croft in Strathnaver and witnessed at first hand the atrocities committed there where 245 houses were burned to the ground, people turned out into the dead of night, cattle chased and crops left to rot...leaving a desperate destitute populace. Macleaod has an attachment to Wick as he worked in WIck as a stone mason for a while ( couldnt get work in SUtherland as he was "black listed...an agitator, his wife and young family still lived in Sutherland but they too were kicked out in mid winter, so the poor women walked with her young familiy all the way to Wick to get food and shelter.)

Seriously either get the book or look for info on line as Donald Macleod ( who eventually threw the towel in and emigrated to Canada )  was a rare person for the times as he could read and write English, wrote letters to Edinburgh papers on the clearances and eventually wrote his book, which was in response to Harriet Beecher Stows Happy Memories, a book she wrote whilst enjoying life with the privilged elite in DUnrobin Castle....her account of life there and " life "  in the area so appalled and sickened Macleod that he wrote and had printed his retort to the fantasy being peddled....hence Gloomy Memories.

----------


## rob murray

[QUOTE=spurtle;1123874]


> Also , ironically , those cheaper sheep in Aus and NZ had been raised on land that had evicted the indigenous population to make way for sheep - never hear that one do we?


Your quite correct, and it is very ironic

----------


## pinotnoir

> There were very little clearances per se in Caithness, only "issues" happened in Reay c 1795 and cannot be compared with the very harsh treatment dished out in Sutherland ie wholesale burnings and destruction of peoples croft houses,


Like its southern neighbours, Caithness has its share of abandoned villages, including Broubster.  In 1838, 27 families were evicted from Broubster and 31 families from Shurrery.  Additional evictions in Caithness took place at Buldoo and Achreamie in the 1840s.  In addition, some 67 families were evicted around Dounreay as well as at Skiall and Borrowstone.  In sum, approximately 170 families were cleared between the late 1830s and 1860.  In 1835, Sinclair of Freswick cleared 107 families at Badfern.  Other clearance sites in Caithness included Olrig, just south of Castletown, Dunnet, West Greenland, Lochend, Hollandmake, Dunbeath Strath and Reaster.

At Badbea, now a deserted Clearance village, a sign-posted footpath leads to the site located about five miles north of Helmsdale. It consists of a group of ruined crofts perched on a cliff-top high above the North Sea.  The village was settled in the 18th and 19th centuries by families that were evicted from Langwell and from nearby Ousdale and Berriedale by landowner Sir John Sinclair of Ulbster to make way for sheep farms.  (Some settlers also came from Auchencraig and Kildonan.)  The evicted had to clear the land and build their new homes on steep slopes where they earned their living primarily in the herring trade and later salmon fishing.  The village had a few cows, pigs and chickens and one horse; each house had its own spinning wheel.  While the men worked, the children and even the livestock were tethered to the rocks to prevent them from being blown off the cliffs to certain death by the fierce winds.

----------


## cptdodger

Sorry Rob, I was referring to what Spurtle wrote "*Also , ironically , those cheaper sheep in Aus and NZ had been raised on  land that had evicted the indigenous population to make way for sheep -  never hear that one do we? 				"* I thought he or she meant the Aborigines !! This is getting confusing now !

----------


## pinotnoir

In addition to being profoundly affected by the Clearances, Caithness was to play a central role in the events that led to an emancipation of the crofters from what was becoming serfdom.

Although many emigrated either to North America, New Zealand and Australia, or to the cities in the south of Scotland in particular Glasgow, which underwent an explosion in its population during the period of the Clearances and the Irish famine, most stayed behind at least for a time. They were crammed into crofting townships on very small areas of land where they were often vulnerable to the abuse and exploitation of their landlords.  Many lacked even crofts of their own and became cottars and squatters on the crofts of other people.  In the 1880s the Highlands and Islands were recently ravaged by the potato famine of the mid nineteenth century.  The 1880s were also a time, however, of growing democracy and of government which was increasingly responsive to public opinion, particularly after the electoral reform Act of 1884.

In the early 1880s, in terms of gaining sympathetic public opinion, crofters were protesting very effectively, with rent strikes and land raids, about their lack of secure tenure of land and their severely reduced access to land.  The government responded in 1883 with a commission of enquiry headed by Francis Napier, and the Napier Commission published recommendations in 1884. Napier’s report fell a long way short of addressing crofters’ demands, and it stimulated a new wave of protests.

The earlier protests had been largely confined to Skye.  In 1884 protest action was much more widespread, many thousands of crofters became members of the Highland Land League and among MPs elected in the United Kingdom general election of 1885 there were Crofters Party MPs elected into the constituencies of Argyllshire, Inverness-shire, Ross and Cromarty and Caithness – Dr Gavin Brown Clark. At Wick Burghs John Macdonald Cameron was also allied to the Crofters Party.  A year later Parliament created the Crofters Act.

The recognised leader of the Land League group who was to play the most prominent part in its activities in Parliament was DR G.B. Clark, who was returned for Caithness by 2,110 votes to 1,218 for the Liberals.  A graduate of the Universities of Edinburgh, Glasgow and London, Clark was active in a number of ‘advanced’ causes.  He had been a member of Karl Marx’s International Workingmen’s Association in London in the 1870s – the ‘International’ gave a good deal of attention to land tenure.  He was also a member of the Fabian Society and the Scottish Home Rule Association.  He had travelled in Africa, India and Canada, and contributed to periodicals on the African, Indian and crofting questions.  He was also the editor of the ‘Good Templar’, this being the interest which brought him into close touch with Keir Hardie, who was an enthusiastic member of the order in the 1880s.  He strongly encouraged Hardie on his first entry into politics in 1887.  After the Crofters Party dissolved he was re-elected as the Liberal candidate in 1886, 1892 and 1895.  For the 1900 General Election he was replaced as Liberal candidate and defeated.

----------


## rob murray

> Like its southern neighbours, Caithness has its share of abandoned villages, including Broubster.  In 1838, 27 families were evicted from Broubster and 31 families from Shurrery.  Additional evictions in Caithness took place at Buldoo and Achreamie in the 1840s.  In addition, some 67 families were evicted around Dounreay as well as at Skiall and Borrowstone.  In sum, approximately 170 families were cleared between the late 1830s and 1860.  In 1835, Sinclair of Freswick cleared 107 families at Badfern.  Other clearance sites in Caithness included Olrig, just south of Castletown, Dunnet, West Greenland, Lochend, Hollandmake, Dunbeath Strath and Reaster.
> 
> At Badbea, now a deserted Clearance village, a sign-posted footpath leads to the site located about five miles north of Helmsdale. It consists of a group of ruined crofts perched on a cliff-top high above the North Sea.  The village was settled in the 18th and 19th centuries by families that were evicted from Langwell and from nearby Ousdale and Berriedale by landowner Sir John Sinclair of Ulbster to make way for sheep farms.  (Some settlers also came from Auchencraig and Kildonan.)  The evicted had to clear the land and build their new homes on steep slopes where they earned their living primarily in the herring trade and later salmon fishing.  The village had a few cows, pigs and chickens and one horse; each house had its own spinning wheel.  While the men worked, the children and even the livestock were tethered to the rocks to prevent them from being blown off the cliffs to certain death by the fierce winds.


Thanks Ive been to Badbea seen the place and the memorial didnt know the extent of clearances in west caithness though, I thought it was just Reay in 1790's.... so will do someresearch and  reading on this many thanks ! I knew a ship left scrabster in the 1830's  / 1840's taking people to the colonies but didnt realise that the people could well have been cleared from the land. Wick used to have 2 newspapers the Groat and Northern Ensign, the ensign was a liberal paper and apperently at the time ( 1840's )  spoke out on   issues including clearances, copies are held in the North Highland Archive Wick Librarymight take a lookie up there. the partilamentary enquiry stuff in the wick library focuses mostly on the sutherland clearances, Strathnaver in particular primarily because of the brutality involved.

----------


## rob murray

> In addition to being profoundly affected by the Clearances, Caithness was to play a central role in the events that led to an emancipation of the crofters from what was becoming serfdom.
> 
> Although many emigrated either to North America, New Zealand and Australia, or to the cities in the south of Scotland in particular Glasgow, which underwent an explosion in its population during the period of the Clearances and the Irish famine, most stayed behind at least for a time. They were crammed into crofting townships on very small areas of land where they were often vulnerable to the abuse and exploitation of their landlords.  Many lacked even crofts of their own and became cottars and squatters on the crofts of other people.  In the 1880s the Highlands and Islands were recently ravaged by the potato famine of the mid nineteenth century.  The 1880s were also a time, however, of growing democracy and of government which was increasingly responsive to public opinion, particularly after the electoral reform Act of 1884.
> 
> In the early 1880s, in terms of gaining sympathetic public opinion, crofters were protesting very effectively, with rent strikes and land raids, about their lack of secure tenure of land and their severely reduced access to land.  The government responded in 1883 with a commission of enquiry headed by Francis Napier, and the Napier Commission published recommendations in 1884. Napier’s report fell a long way short of addressing crofters’ demands, and it stimulated a new wave of protests.
> 
> The earlier protests had been largely confined to Skye.  In 1884 protest action was much more widespread, many thousands of crofters became members of the Highland Land League and among MPs elected in the United Kingdom general election of 1885 there were Crofters Party MPs elected into the constituencies of Argyllshire, Inverness-shire, Ross and Cromarty and Caithness – Dr Gavin Brown Clark. At Wick Burghs John Macdonald Cameron was also allied to the Crofters Party.  A year later Parliament created the Crofters Act.
> 
> The recognised leader of the Land League group who was to play the most prominent part in its activities in Parliament was DR G.B. Clark, who was returned for Caithness by 2,110 votes to 1,218 for the Liberals.  A graduate of the Universities of Edinburgh, Glasgow and London, Clark was active in a number of ‘advanced’ causes.  He had been a member of Karl Marx’s International Workingmen’s Association in London in the 1870s – the ‘International’ gave a good deal of attention to land tenure.  He was also a member of the Fabian Society and the Scottish Home Rule Association.  He had travelled in Africa, India and Canada, and contributed to periodicals on the African, Indian and crofting questions.  He was also the editor of the ‘Good Templar’, this being the interest which brought him into close touch with Keir Hardie, who was an enthusiastic member of the order in the 1880s.  He strongly encouraged Hardie on his first entry into politics in 1887.  After the Crofters Party dissolved he was re-elected as the Liberal candidate in 1886, 1892 and 1895.  For the 1900 General Election he was replaced as Liberal candidate and defeated.


Great read, shows very graphically that crofters / gaels didnt meekly roll over, but were instrumental in instigating very radical political change. The tie in with Keir Hardie is fascinating, again didnt know of that so thanks, this thread is now developing into the most educational informative and enjoyable Ive ever partipcated in on the org, many thanks keep the facts comming !!

----------


## rob murray

In 1845 the people of Glencalvie were evicted off their land their  families had lived on for generations. Eighteen families, 88 people, lived in  Glencalvie in turf cabins, growing barley and oats, herding cattle and sheep on  a total holding of no more than 20 acres. The most incredible rent, almost four  times what a farmer in England would pay for the same land, was paid for this  land for generations without arrears, except for some weeks during the famine  in 1836. Of the 400 to 500 inhabitants cleared, 90 or so people had nowhere to  go and took shelter in the churchyard of Croick Kirk. Ive been there at Croick and etched in the church windows you can still see names and snippets of the story behind their clearance.

----------


## rob murray

> Like its southern neighbours, Caithness has its share of abandoned villages, including Broubster.  In 1838, 27 families were evicted from Broubster and 31 families from Shurrery.  Additional evictions in Caithness took place at Buldoo and Achreamie in the 1840s.  In addition, some 67 families were evicted around Dounreay as well as at Skiall and Borrowstone.  In sum, approximately 170 families were cleared between the late 1830s and 1860.  In 1835, Sinclair of Freswick cleared 107 families at Badfern.  Other clearance sites in Caithness included Olrig, just south of Castletown, Dunnet, West Greenland, Lochend, Hollandmake, Dunbeath Strath and Reaster.
> 
> At Badbea, now a deserted Clearance village, a sign-posted footpath leads to the site located about five miles north of Helmsdale. It consists of a group of ruined crofts perched on a cliff-top high above the North Sea.  The village was settled in the 18th and 19th centuries by families that were evicted from Langwell and from nearby Ousdale and Berriedale by landowner Sir John Sinclair of Ulbster to make way for sheep farms.  (Some settlers also came from Auchencraig and Kildonan.)  The evicted had to clear the land and build their new homes on steep slopes where they earned their living primarily in the herring trade and later salmon fishing.  The village had a few cows, pigs and chickens and one horse; each house had its own spinning wheel.  While the men worked, the children and even the livestock were tethered to the rocks to prevent them from being blown off the cliffs to certain death by the fierce winds.


Can I ask where you got the information on as regards the Caithness Clearances as I would really like to read up on this aspect of highland local history that I knew very little about : is there anything on line or a book available ? 

  the  27 families evicted from Broubster and 31 families from Shurrery.  Additional evictions in Caithness took place at Buldoo and Achreamie in the 1840s.  In addition, some 67 families were evicted around Dounreay as well as at Skiall and Borrowstone.  In sum, approximately 170 families were cleared between the late 1830s and 1860.  In 1835, Sinclair of Freswick cleared 107 families at Badfern.  Other clearance sites in Caithness included Olrig, just south of Castletown, Dunnet, West Greenland, Lochend, Hollandmake, Dunbeath Strath and Reaster.

----------


## cptdodger

There is a lot of information on here Rob, regarding the Caithness Clearances, including at the bottom of the page the references, as to where the info came from  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances. Honestly if you type Highland Clearances into Google, there must be hundreds of different websites, also if you look at Clans, a lot of them will make reference to the Clearances.

----------


## moureen

Thank you all for information on Highland Clearances,link to Charles Kennedy's maiden speach,and all the info regarding my history! I am a MacLeod from Skerray and will read Donald MacLeod's book. Where can I buy it???

----------


## rob murray

> There is a lot of information on here Rob, regarding the Caithness Clearances, including at the bottom of the page the references, as to where the info came from  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances. Honestly if you type Highland Clearances into Google, there must be hundreds of different websites, also if you look at Clans, a lot of them will make reference to the Clearances.


Many thanks, Im honestly really enjoying this thread ( for a change ! ) educational and informative, will certainly look at references, if I find something then I will post it : one thing that always flumoxed me was the lack of aggression shown in the sutherland clearances, ok people were shell shocked and the landowners were exercising their legal rights, but later in the 19th century more organised agitation and violent clashed between crofters ( largely women ! ) and police / sheriff officers is widely recorded, I wondered why none hit back at the start ie 1809- 1820, then I tracked the formation of the sutherland highlanders, 93rd Sutherland Highlanders,  first mustered, in Strathnaver in August 1800, ( tremendous irony here, mustered in the very place whihc was utterly destroyed, burnt to the ground several years later )  and containing hundreds of men from sutherland and caithness. During the period of the initial brutal clearances these men were deployed in the cape colony, america, Ireland and the West Indies......so many of the men involved couldnt have been abreast I would imagine on the clearances, nor got leave to go home so the bulk of manhood were conviently away from home....just summising... would they have made any difference if they were home in standing up to the landlords ?? 


Last quick one : during the crimean war a recruiting team came to Golspie to get as Queen Victoria put it "her brave highlanders" to enlist ( she didnt know what had been going on as regards the clearances and de population ) .....they were told stick their red coats on the damn sheep and get them to fight...or words to that effect

----------


## rob murray

> Thank you all for information on Highland Clearances,link to Charles Kennedy's maiden speach,and all the info regarding my history! I am a MacLeod from Skerray and will read Donald MacLeod's book. Where can I buy it???


 Thanks Moureen, Im passionate about highland history and have learned some good interesting facts from other posters on here, really enjoying the thread : Donald Macleod : Yoou'll get it on Amazon see this link http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_...loomy+Memories
Prose, is as you would accept from a book written in the 1850's, heavyish, actually the book is really based around letters and corrospondence Donald Macleod wrote to the  Edinburgh Weekly Chronicle whilst still in Scotland, heres a letter below : 

I AM a native of Sutherlandshire, and remember when the inhabitants of that country lived comfortably and happily, when the mansions of proprietors and the abodes of factors, magistrates, and ministers, were the seats of honour, truth, and good example—when people of quality were indeed what they were styled, the friends and benefactors of all who lived upon their domains. But all this is changed. Alas, alas! I have lived to see calamity upon calamity overtake the Sutherlanders. For five successive years, on or about the term day, has scarcely anything been seen but removing the inhabitants in the most cruel and unfeeling rnanner, and burning the houses which they and their forefathers had occupied from time immemorial. The country was darkened by the smoke of the burnings, and the descendants of those who drew their swords at Bannockburn, Sheriffmuir, and Killicrankie—the children and nearest relations of those who sustained the honour of the British name in many a bloody field—the heroes of Egypt, Corunna, Toulouse, Salamanca, and Waterloo—were ruined, trampled upon, dispersed, and compelled to seek an asylum across the Atlantic; while those who remained from inability to emigrate, deprived of all the comforts of life, became paupers beggars—a disgrace to the nation whose freedom and honour many of them had maintained by their valour and cemented with their blood.

Im sure youll agree very powerful emotive writing !!

----------


## rob murray

heres a copy of the book free on line https://archive.org/stream/donaldmcl...euoft_djvu.txt

----------


## cptdodger

> Many thanks, Im honestly really enjoying this thread ( for a change ! ) educational and informative, will certainly look at references, if I find something then I will post it : one thing that always flumoxed me was the lack of aggression shown in the sutherland clearances, ok people were shell shocked and the landowners were exercising their legal rights, but later in the 19th century more organised agitation and violent clashed between crofters ( largely women ! ) and police / sheriff officers is widely recorded, I wondered why none hit back at the start ie 1809- 1820, then I tracked the formation of the sutherland highlanders, 93rd Sutherland Highlanders,  first mustered, in Strathnaver in August 1800, ( tremendous irony here, mustered in the very place whihc was utterly destroyed, burnt to the ground several years later )  and containing hundreds of men from sutherland and caithness. During the period of the initial brutal clearances these men were deployed in the cape colony, america, Ireland and the West Indies......so many of the men involved couldnt have been abreast I would imagine on the clearances, nor got leave to go home so the bulk of manhood were conviently away from home....just summising... would they have made any difference if they were home in standing up to the landlords ?? 
> 
> 
> Last quick one : during the crimean war a recruiting team came to Golspie to get as Queen Victoria put it "her brave highlanders" to enlist ( she didnt know what had been going on as regards the clearances and de population ) .....they were told stick their red coats on the damn sheep and get them to fight...or words to that effect


It is hard to say whether the men being there would have made any difference at all, as you say it was the landowners legal right to remove tenants. Although not on the same scale, the only thing I can equate this to is what Hitler did to the Jewish people, Gypsies and anybody else he did'nt like the look of, there was millions of them. Now, the men must have been present then, and it still happened, but it really is difficult to say whether their presence would have made any difference at all. 

There is a connection between a Lord (I think) in Dundee and the clearances, I belong to the Lamont Clan, and I am sure he had something to do with that, but I can't find the reference. However, I did read about the Highlanders saying that about the sheep when I was looking for the reference about Dundee.

----------


## moureen

Thank you Rob.

----------


## sids

[QUOTE=rob murray;1123879]


> Your quite correct, and it is very ironic


It is ironic. Victims of clearances here went to Australia and America and perpetrated worse on the locals there.

----------


## rob murray

[QUOTE=sids;1123904]


> It is ironic. Victims of clearances here went to Australia and America and perpetrated worse on the locals there.


Well I would imagine that landowners would have done that, emigres wouldve worked on farms to start with as most arrived there with the clothes they stood in as they left the north because they had nothing, thats not to say that already established landwoners and yes probably some were scottish, cleared the aborigines but I dont know the extent of their involvement. If you go the museum in Ullapool you can read letters from people who left the area in the 1860's + to go to Australia the general tone is to invite locals ( ie back home ) to come to Australia because there were no ties, if you didnt like one sheep farm then there were plenty others looking for good men, hence men werent tied into jobs / houses like back home and had more freedom and control over their lives. What I did find out was a white austalian policy dening aboriginies the vote :  "following the establishment of autonomous parliaments, a rise in nationalism and improvements in transportation, the Australian colonies voted to unite in a Federation, which came into being in 1901. The Australian Constitution and early parliaments established one of the most progressive governmental systems on the earth at that time, with male and female suffrage and series of checks and balances built into the governmental framework. National security fears had been one of the chief motivators for the union and legislation was quickly enacted to restrict non-European immigration to Australia - the foundation of the White Australia Policy - and voting rights for Aborigines were denied across most states. A shameful state of affairs, aboriginies are still mistreated in Australia, mind a recent documentary about a Golspie based doctory ( Mary Patience ? ) who went to work with poor aborigines a cople of years back, breath taking shameful !

----------


## rob murray

[QUOTE=sids;1123904]


> It is ironic. Victims of clearances here went to Australia and America and perpetrated worse on the locals there.


Aborigine massacres were very widepread in 19th century and involved a cross selection of european settlers : see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...us_Australians a comprehensive breakdown of acts of violence, some scots were bound to have been involved, shameful indeed. Im not trying to be whiter than white nor ignore sitiations like this, I can see the irony all over the place  but my focus / interest is on Highland / Gael history to which my knowledge especially the full extent of the Caithness clearances has been increased by postings on this thread.

----------


## sids

The Highland Clearances were a good example of social injustice. 

Something similar took place in Ireland, with a bit more acute hunger and even the once largely rural population of England somehow ended up in slums of industrial cities. English regions didn't have the complication of being on the losing side of the Jacobite rebellion.

----------


## rob murray

> The Highland Clearances were a good example of social injustice. 
> 
> Something similar took place in Ireland, with a bit more acute hunger and even the once largely rural population of England somehow ended up in slums of industrial cities. English regions didn't have the complication of being on the losing side of the Jacobite rebellion.


In Engalnd in the 18th century there was what was called the practise of enclosure, where basically small holdings ( crofts ) were combined together creating larger enclosed fields, changing farming from small holdings to large more industrialised farms, so small holders had to either work on farms or move to newly industrialised cities. Jacobite rebellion...depends on how you see it. Apart from atrocities committed in the immediate aftermath of Culloden, the highlands was occupied by the military up to 1752 ish, thereafter the powers that be concluded that things had settled down and there was no chance of another rebellion. Forts at Ardersier /  Fort George Fort AUgustus and Fort William  all were garrisoned with Fort George becomming a permanent military fixture proving  a permanent powerful sign of "power"...just in case. In any case the structure of the highlands had changed with chiefs involved in the 45 stripped of estates etc ( some hanged ) and mass deportations of surviving clans men who took part in the rebellion all put paid to any futher chance of re offending. Charles Stuart abandonded his army after culloden with the order...every man for himself....and threw the towel in. He came back to the UK once. incognito, to visit London briefly in the 1750's but the STuart cause for restoration died at Culloden. The clearances were 100% down to the chiefs / or land owners, the clan system fragmented, arguably in some parts of the highlands pre 1745, the old order was changing, they owned the land, they took the decision that sheep were a better return than rents paid and they using the law, cleared their lands of people.....thats one take on it

----------


## sids

Maybe little is heard about clearances in Caithness because we don't hold a grudge.

----------


## Rheghead

> Pitty he did not mention the black slave trade Scotland was involved with :-)


Seeing as you mention it, why not?  Perhaps we need to pay some reparations in respect of the injustice?  It would only be right?  Our UK grew fat on the back of slavery.  You only have to go to certain Caithness graveyards to see that there a strong connection with 18th century West Indies.

----------


## cptdodger

> Maybe little is heard about clearances in Caithness because we don't hold a grudge.


I have to disagree, I got it chapter and verse when I moved to Caithness, as I said before, because I mentioned in passing I was going to Dunrobin Castle.

----------


## pinotnoir

> Can I ask where you got the information on as regards the Caithness Clearances as I would really like to read up on this aspect of highland local history that I knew very little about : is there anything on line or a book available ?


There are two books for sale in Caithness Horizons one an encyclopedia which you will get lost in researching further. I found this article- available online- very evocative too...

The Crofters Party - 1885 to 1892
The first British independent common peoples political party

D.W.Crowley

Scottish Historical Review, Volume 35, 1956

----------


## rob murray

> There are two books for sale in Caithness Horizons one an encyclopedia which you will get lost in researching further. I found this article- available online- very evocative too...
> 
> The Crofters Party - 1885 to 1892
> The first British independent common peoples political party
> 
> D.W.Crowley
> 
> Scottish Historical Review, Volume 35, 1956


Thanks very much will look forward to tracking the info down.

----------


## rob murray

> Maybe little is heard about clearances in Caithness because we don't hold a grudge.


I would suggest that the Caithness clearances were over shadowed by the infamous and world reknown Sutherland clearances, hence has faded into the mists of time,not many people therefore knew of the extent of the Caithness clearances Ive never seen any books published on the issue, from a historical viewpoint Im just interested, as whats past is past,  but I find it personally ( and speaking personally ) a fascinating era of Highland history

----------


## sids

> I have to disagree, I got it chapter and verse when I moved to Caithness, as I said before, because I mentioned in passing I was going to Dunrobin Castle.


You must have mentioned it to some ill-mannered hothead.

Lots of Caithness people visit Dunrobin.

----------


## cptdodger

> You must have mentioned it to some ill-mannered hothead.
> 
> Lots of Caithness people visit Dunrobin.


No, generally she was very nice, I worked with her, and we were dealing with the general public. But that was my first impression of how people here felt about the Clearances, and I have to say, it was'nt just her that felt that way, as I was asking other people to try and find out about the Clearances. And that was the impression I was left with, these people hold a grudge.  This is from 2011, but I am sure I have read about more recent incidents - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...lands-15924649

----------


## rob murray

> You must have mentioned it to some ill-mannered hothead.
> 
> Lots of Caithness people visit Dunrobin.


Im a Wicker, Ive been there myself twice, and a good day out but I never ever saw a single mention of Strathnaver, they have a shield with badges of all the old sutherland parish churches, but Strathnaver was missing. Whether you believe it or not there is still hatred in parts for what was done in Sutherland, a good example was a talk given a few years back in Dornoch by an academic outlining the latest theory behind the clearnances being that it was a social experiment that was badly handled.......ie good idea but poorly executed, the talk was stopped and the guy had to beat a very hasty retreat. Call the people who reacted badly to this fanciful notion, hot headed and ill mannered if you wish, I have my own personal thoughts on the social experiment theory. You cannot air brush proven historical facts, you cannot be a clearance denier, as I said whats done is done, its nowt personal to me just history and I like to get to the core of proven accpeptable historical facts as to understand the present youneed to understand the past.

Perhaps you should do a wee bit of research yourself, focus on the role played by SIr John McNeil in the Barra clearances ( 1840's )  and his mal adminisration of the poor law relied on during the potato / crop failures, his "management" of the island clearances and then consider why even today some people hold justifyable deep hatred towards the perpretators. ( at home and abroad )

----------


## rob murray

The Duke of  Sutherland familys at Dunrobin owned 1½million acres of Sutherland by the l820’s — “an area not equalled in theBritish Empire”. Queen Victoria, visiting them in their fabulous residence is reported to have said, “I have come from my house to yourpalace".
In the Strath of Kildonan alone, just one small part of thevast county of Sutherland, between 1811 and 1831 the population was decimated, from 1574people to just 257. Population consistently dropped  through migration to other parts of scotland and abroad  
Just a few historical stats that people maybe interested in knowing.

----------


## cptdodger

That is very interesting. Here is a photo of Queen Victoria at Dunrobin - https://www.facebook.com/DunrobinCas...1906596373482/

----------


## rob murray

> That is very interesting. Here is a photo of Queen Victoria at Dunrobin - https://www.facebook.com/DunrobinCas...1906596373482/


Cheers......It just goes to show the enormous wealth and power the sutherlands had if the Queen was impressed eh !

----------


## cptdodger

Definitely, and if you think about it, that was a fair way to travel for her back then. I would have to check and see when the railway was built, but I would imagine she would have travelled by horse and coach. Plus that was 1872, she really was'nt seen much in public after Prince Albert died, so that was some honour.

You probably already know this, but I found it quite interesting about Dunrobin Railway Station - http://www.scotlandrailholiday.com/dunrobin/history.htm

----------


## rob murray

> Definitely, and if you think about it, that was a fair way to travel for her back then. I would have to check and see when the railway was built, but I would imagine she would have travelled by horse and coach. Plus that was 1872, she really was'nt seen much in public after Prince Albert died, so that was some honour.
> 
> You probably already know this, but I found it quite interesting about Dunrobin Railway Station - http://www.scotlandrailholiday.com/dunrobin/history.htm


I didnt thanks for the link, seemingly the railway reached Golspie by 1868 so Victoria wouldve come by train to Golspie ? The railway from Inverness to the far north opened in several stages. The first to Dingwall opened in 1863.The next stage was to Tain, eventually reaching Golspie in 1868

----------


## cptdodger

I would presume it would depend on where she was coming from, but thinking about it, if she was at Balmoral, she would have made her way to Inverness, just as she would if she was in London or Osborne House, so it is quite possible she did use the railway.

----------


## rob murray

> I would presume it would depend on where she was coming from, but thinking about it, if she was at Balmoral, she would have made her way to Inverness, just as she would if she was in London or Osborne House, so it is quite possible she did use the railway.


If you do the tour of Dunrobin you will see photos of other royals from early c20 ie up to Edward VIII who stayed there, mind from the late 1890's their estate like all big highland estates who couldnt compete with imports from Australia / NZ,  was less reliant  on sheep and was more a hunting shooting fishing toffs holiday home

----------


## cptdodger

I have been there a couple of times, but did'nt realise they did tours, there were certainly guides in some of the rooms right enough. I have to say I'm glad I'm not Royal, for the life of me I could not hunt animals for sport. That was the one thing I did not like at Dunrobin, there's a separate building with all manner of stuffed animals, not my cup of tea I'm afraid ! But like everything else, it's big money up here.

----------


## rob murray

> I have been there a couple of times, but did'nt realise they did tours, there were certainly guides in some of the rooms right enough. I have to say I'm glad I'm not Royal, for the life of me I could not hunt animals for sport. That was the one thing I did not like at Dunrobin, there's a separate building with all manner of stuffed animals, not my cup of tea I'm afraid ! But like everything else, it's big money up here.


Not tours as such more when you go round wifies give wee talks in various rooms as you say, aye the trophy room..spooky eh !

----------


## cptdodger

> Not tours as such more when you go round wifies give wee talks in various rooms as you say, aye the trophy room..spooky eh !


I used to work at The Castle Of Mey, and we did individual tours, with a group of people on them, but if there were coaches in, it was what we call "freeflow", so like Dunrobin, there would just be guides in certain rooms. That trophy room, I walked in there saw what it was, and was just about to walk out, but saw a man sitting behind a desk, rather than appear rude, I rather quickly walked round the place, then straight out !! I like their Birds  of Prey though, especially Cedar the owl !

----------


## rob murray

> I used to work at The Castle Of Mey, and we did individual tours, with a group of people on them, but if there were coaches in, it was what we call "freeflow", so like Dunrobin, there would just be guides in certain rooms. That trophy room, I walked in there saw what it was, and was just about to walk out, but saw a man sitting behind a desk, rather than appear rude, I rather quickly walked round the place, then straight out !! I like their Birds  of Prey though, especially Cedar the owl !


Ive been to the castle of mey on business, was well treated and got a personal tour by the head man there...couldnt help but smile at the Queen mothers record player ( a wee cheapo ) and records....Jim Mcleods Scottish dance band, tapes of Colin Campbell, the same as any elderly local wifie, place felt really homely, kitchen had auld fridge and stuff....... Dunrobin and bigger places lacked the warmth of Mey

----------


## cptdodger

That was possibly Mr Murray, who retired a couple of years ago now, he actually lived in Inverness so it was a bit of a trek for him, lovely man though. It is a lovely Castle and they have kept it as near to what it was when The Queen Mother was alive, as they can. I loved working there, but I do'nt drive so public transport was an issue. I love Dunrobin Castle itself, it's like a fairytale Castle !! but I found the inside had loads of tiny rooms. As far as I know, the Duchess of Sutherland now lives in Dornoch, to be honest I do'nt think an elderly lady would be able to cope with the maze of rooms and all the stairs !

----------


## rob murray

> That was possibly Mr Murray, who retired a couple of years ago now, he actually lived in Inverness so it was a bit of a trek for him, lovely man though. It is a lovely Castle and they have kept it as near to what it was when The Queen Mother was alive, as they can. I loved working there, but I do'nt drive so public transport was an issue. I love Dunrobin Castle itself, it's like a fairytale Castle !! but I found the inside had loads of tiny rooms. As far as I know, the Duchess of Sutherland now lives in Dornoch, to be honest I do'nt think an elderly lady would be able to cope with the maze of rooms and all the stairs !


Yes that was the mans name he used to be CO of the QUeens Own Highlanders, very nice man indeed

----------


## sids

> Not tours as such more when you go round wifies give wee talks in various rooms as you say, aye the trophy room..spooky eh !


Do they still have giraffes' necks and heads coming up out of the floor?

----------


## sids

There was some fancy plate on display that was a gift from "grateful tenantry."

If I remember rightly, the leggy statue on Ben Bhraggie was financed the same way, i.e.: "You are the grateful tenantry, so pay up!"

----------


## sids

> Im a Wicker, Ive been there myself twice, and a good day out but I never ever saw a single mention of Strathnaver, they have a shield with badges of all the old sutherland parish churches, but Strathnaver was missing. Whether you believe it or not there is still hatred in parts for what was done in Sutherland, a good example was a talk given a few years back in Dornoch by an academic outlining the latest theory behind the clearnances being that it was a social experiment that was badly handled.......ie good idea but poorly executed, the talk was stopped and the guy had to beat a very hasty retreat. Call the people who reacted badly to this fanciful notion, hot headed and ill mannered if you wish, I have my own personal thoughts on the social experiment theory. You cannot air brush proven historical facts, you cannot be a clearance denier, as I said whats done is done, its nowt personal to me just history and I like to get to the core of proven accpeptable historical facts as to understand the present youneed to understand the past.
> 
> Perhaps you should do a wee bit of research yourself, focus on the role played by SIr John McNeil in the Barra clearances ( 1840's )  and his mal adminisration of the poor law relied on during the potato / crop failures, his "management" of the island clearances and then consider why even today some people hold justifyable deep hatred towards the perpretators. ( at home and abroad )


I'll do none of what you suggest, thanks. 

Your guy giving the presentation was obviously on a loser, but he had a sort of point in that there would have been big changes and most of the people would have left anyway. However, you can't excuse inhumanity.

I don't begrudge descendants of the victims their hatred of the landowners, but I have no direct connection with the clearances. I'm just a Wick inhabitant who goes to work every day, from a long line of people who did the same , or had small businesses. I'm not going to construct in my tiny mind some massive grudge against toffs.

----------


## sids

> Call the people who reacted badly to this fanciful notion, hot headed and ill mannered if you wish,


Now you're getting creative. Mr Dodger said he mentioned visiting Dunrobin and got chapter and verse about the Highland Clearances; that sounded rude to me.

Now you're giving me permission to call these Dornoch people, of whom I have never heard, hot headed and rude!

----------


## cptdodger

> Now you're getting creative. Mr Dodger said he mentioned visiting Dunrobin and got chapter and verse about the Highland Clearances; that sounded rude to me.


As I said, I honestly do'nt think she was being rude at all, what was made very evident though, was the deep resentment she held for the Sutherlands. Again,as I have said  before it was an awful thing that happened, but, and this is just my opinion, there is no point in resenting the current Countess of Sutherland because as far as I know she has not forcibly removed anybody from her lands.

----------


## moureen

My Mother worked in Tongue House (way,way,back!!)at the end of the season Countessof Sutherland threw a party for guests staying at the time and the staff.I can remember my Dad refusing to go because of what happened to his fore father's.There were lots of "lords and ladies " cousins of the Queen I think.We had a great night we played hide and seek through the big house and garden there was a lad same age as me called John John who wanted to be my boyfriend my Dad would never have forgiven me!!!!!!!

----------


## Fulmar

This has turned into such an interesting thread and very informative.
I believe it is vital to understand the past as best we may in order to throw light on the present, not just the facts but the mindset of the people who lived in those times. 
It was not blanket bad news though was it. So very many in the 19th C dedicated their life (at personal cost) to bringing about the social justice and reforms that we benefit from today at a time when the prevailing belief among many was that there was a divine order for things, that people had to stay fixed within the class in which they were born and then used this to justify (in their own mind) horrendous and hideous treatment of the poor. 
Reading 19th century literature is fascinating in this respect and so hard to understand today how people back then could possibly have believed what they did but because others dared to challenge and agitate over the state of things, changes in attitude did come about- and it's still happening, thank goodness.

----------


## rob murray

> This has turned into such an interesting thread and very informative.
> I believe it is vital to understand the past as best we may in order to throw light on the present, not just the facts but the mindset of the people who lived in those times. 
> It was not blanket bad news though was it. So very many in the 19th C dedicated their life (at personal cost) to bringing about the social justice and reforms that we benefit from today at a time when the prevailing belief among many was that there was a divine order for things, that people had to stay fixed within the class in which they were born and then used this to justify (in their own mind) horrendous and hideous treatment of the poor. 
> Reading 19th century literature is fascinating in this respect and so hard to understand today how people back then could possibly have believed what they did but because others dared to challenge and agitate over the state of things, changes in attitude did come about- and it's still happening, thank goodness.


Totally agree with your post, Im really enjoying this history thread. Whooly agree with your statement.....I believe it is vital to understand the past as best we may in order to throw light on the present !!

----------


## rob murray

> Now you're getting creative. Mr Dodger said he mentioned visiting Dunrobin and got chapter and verse about the Highland Clearances; that sounded rude to me.
> 
> Now you're giving me permission to call these Dornoch people, of whom I have never heard, hot headed and rude!


Thats not what I meant in anyway or shape...Ive been quite clear its the history Im interested in whats past is past, still doesnt deter people wanting to understand the past....if thats the case why bother teaching history.

----------


## rob murray

> I'll do none of what you suggest, thanks. 
> 
> Your guy giving the presentation was obviously on a loser, but he had a sort of point in that there would have been big changes and most of the people would have left anyway. However, you can't excuse inhumanity.
> 
> I don't begrudge descendants of the victims their hatred of the landowners, but I have no direct connection with the clearances. I'm just a Wick inhabitant who goes to work every day, from a long line of people who did the same , or had small businesses. I'm not going to construct in my tiny mind some massive grudge against toffs.


Thats your opinion and choice which your quite entitled to. As the poster above puts it and I agree with the sentiments, it is vital to understand the past as best we may in order to throw light on the present, and I have no grudge whatsoever against any "toffs", theve done nowt to me as Ive said repeatedly whats past is past and  whats done is done Im only interested in the history

----------


## sids

Studying history and understanding the past will only depress you, when it all happens again!

----------


## cptdodger

> Thats not what I meant in anyway or shape...Ive been quite clear its the history Im interested in whats past is past, still doesnt deter people wanting to understand the past....if thats the case why bother teaching history.


I quite agree, it is interesting to found out how we, (Caithness and Sutherland) got to this point. Clearly, the Clearances played a part in that. In my case, I love Dundee's history as I was brought up in Broughty Ferry. When I was growing up we had the three J's, Jute Jam (Keillers) and Journalism (DC Thomson), we only have the Journalism left. Dundee had to reinvent itself when we lost the Jute industry and in 2014 Dundee was recognised by the United Nations as the UK's first UNESCO City of Design for its diverse contributions to fields including medical research, comics and video games. Probably Grand Theft Auto being the most famous game to come out of Dundee ! As of today, the waterfront has been decimated and is being rebuilt to contain the first Victoria and Albert Museum outside London.

Dundee and Broughty Ferry have both had their tragedies, Dundee, The Tay Bridge Disaster, where a train was going over the bridge when it collapsed at the cost of between 60 - 75 lives. And we lost our Lifeboat "The Mona" with all hands, eight brave men including a father and son. That was just before I was born on the 8th of December 1959. At that time Broughty Ferry was still a small village like place where everybody knew everybody else. I know every single family that was involved.

Although that is probably only interesting to me ! The point I am trying to make is, history (I believe) shapes who we are. Moving from a City to here, it does concern me what the children growing up here now, are going to do career wise. Once Dounreay goes, and it will, what opportunities will they be left with? The sheer amount of people that Dounreay employs keeps Thurso going, once that goes, once again, people will be forced to move South to find opportunities there.

----------


## rob murray

> Studying history and understanding the past will only depress you, when it all happens again!


Fair point.

----------


## rob murray

> I quite agree, it is interesting to found out how we, (Caithness and Sutherland) got to this point. Clearly, the Clearances played a part in that. In my case, I love Dundee's history as I was brought up in Broughty Ferry. When I was growing up we had the three J's, Jute Jam (Keillers) and Journalism (DC Thomson), we only have the Journalism left. Dundee had to reinvent itself when we lost the Jute industry and in 2014 Dundee was recognised by the United Nations as the UK's first UNESCO City of Design for its diverse contributions to fields including medical research, comics and video games. Probably Grand Theft Auto being the most famous game to come out of Dundee ! As of today, the waterfront has been decimated and is being rebuilt to contain the first Victoria and Albert Museum outside London.
> 
> Dundee and Broughty Ferry have both had their tragedies, Dundee, The Tay Bridge Disaster, where a train was going over the bridge when it collapsed at the cost of between 60 - 75 lives. And we lost our Lifeboat "The Mona" with all hands, eight brave men including a father and son. That was just before I was born on the 8th of December 1959. At that time Broughty Ferry was still a small village like place where everybody knew everybody else. I know every single family that was involved.
> 
> Although that is probably only interesting to me ! The point I am trying to make is, history (I believe) shapes who we are. Moving from a City to here, it does concern me what the children growing up here now, are going to do career wise. Once Dounreay goes, and it will, what opportunities will they be left with? The sheer amount of people that Dounreay employs keeps Thurso going, once that goes, once again, people will be forced to move South to find opportunities there.


Very interesting to hear your take on moving from a city to a rurl area and how history shapes who we are : I know Dundee well as 2 of my childern went to university there ( Dundee University ) , my son is a music jourmalist now working in London ( for his sins he started supporting Dundee FC when down there and Dundee and Wick Academy are his teams )  but he got his start with a Dundee based publication : The surviving jute factory buildings are impressive buildings as is the tenements you see in Dundee, Dundee has really moved on though, its a vibrant place and as you say has made an impact in the field of computer gaming..Abertay University in Dundee specialise in teaching gaming / technology applications : Broughty Ferry....again a really nice place, very picturesque around the harbour and mainstreet : oh forgot to mention the best music shop in Scotland that Ive seen for vinyl and all formats is at the bottom of Perth Road Dundee...Grouchos....

----------


## moureen

Hi,if anyone interested in Sutherland there is a site    Breatongue 1845_ Mary Young's Scullomie Pages it tells of Mr Horsburgh's visit of tenants in Tongue 1844 1845. Heart breaking to read.

----------


## cptdodger

I actually worked in Abertay University, I ran the Blackwells Bookshop which they had there, I say shop, it was temporary place in the student's union at the start of terms! It was very interesting what actually goes into the gaming industry, for instance they had to learn Japanese ! I'm all for moving with the times but I have to say, some of the buildings they have brought down in Dundee, is a crime, beautiful buildings just gone, and I am not referring to Tayside House ! (the thing that towered above the Caird Hall) but as much as an eyesore as it was, it was part of Dundee's skyline, you knew you were home when you saw that thing !! 

You have probably walked past my late Grandmothers house in Broughty Ferry, she lived just round the corner from Gray Street (where Visocchi's is and has the best ice cream in the world!) near our beloved Swans !!

Groucho's goodness me, great shop, so pleased it survived the digital age!

----------


## cptdodger

> Hi,if anyone interested in Sutherland there is a site    Breatongue 1845_ Mary Young's Scullomie Pages it tells of Mr Horsburgh's visit of tenants in Tongue 1844 1845. Heart breaking to read.


Is this it Moureen ? http://cmy.iay.org.uk/resources/1844.htm

----------


## rob murray

> I actually worked in Abertay University, I ran the Blackwells Bookshop which they had there, I say shop, it was temporary place in the student's union at the start of terms! It was very interesting what actually goes into the gaming industry, for instance they had to learn Japanese ! I'm all for moving with the times but I have to say, some of the buildings they have brought down in Dundee, is a crime, beautiful buildings just gone, and I am not referring to Tayside House ! (the thing that towered above the Caird Hall) but as much as an eyesore as it was, it was part of Dundee's skyline, you knew you were home when you saw that thing !! 
> 
> You have probably walked past my late Grandmothers house in Broughty Ferry, she lived just round the corner from Gray Street (where Visocchi's is and has the best ice cream in the world!) near our beloved Swans !!
> 
> Groucho's goodness me, great shop, so pleased it survived the digital age!


Same thing happened in WIck, lovely old tenament buildings in Pulteytown, south of the river, and nearly everything in west high street was pulled down in the early 70's,completly altered the town centre, tenaments were sound buildings and could have been refurbished, it was a local controvery well to some people / change to others....  Grouchos aye still going and doing well. Ive been in Brought Ferry loads of times used to take a run though when we were down in Dundee so yes I more than likley walked past your grannies house.

----------


## rob murray

> Hi,if anyone interested in Sutherland there is a site    Breatongue 1845_ Mary Young's Scullomie Pages it tells of Mr Horsburgh's visit of tenants in Tongue 1844 1845. Heart breaking to read.


Thanks Moureen will track this down.

----------


## rob murray

> Is this it Moureen ? http://cmy.iay.org.uk/resources/1844.htm


I think its this one http://cmy.iay.org.uk/resources/1845times.htm ie based on a Times newspaper investigation into official reports made as regards "idelness! ( reliance on the poor law ) in the "new fishing villages"....tackling the lies head on...a quick squint through and as Moureen says its heartbreaking stuff. 

Among many others, Mr ROBERT HORSBURGH, Factor to the Sutherland Estate, gave  evidence in 1844 to The Parliamentary Inquiry into the Administration and  Practical Operation of the Poor Laws of Scotland. He made claims of idleness in  the so-called new "Fishing Villages" which aroused much public resentment. (This  was a time of hardship and unemployment prior to the potato famine, which  reached Tongue in 1846.)

In response, "The Times of London" sent a correspondent, "Our Own Commissioner"  round the Highlands. During 1845-1846 his findings were published in twelve  articles entitled "The Condition of the Poor in the Highlands of Scotland". The  extracts reproduced below relate particularly to the area of Tongue Parish. Proves the power of the media to expose what was really going on rather than accept the distortions and lies comming from the factor.

----------


## rob murray

This is really bad stuff  and from a minister as well, a great factual description of the abject poverty suffered by the Tongue people : The Rev. Hugh McKenzie, the former minister of the parish, in his evidence  before the commissioners says—"They used to eat no vegetables. They had a few  spots of oats and bear, but they bought very little meal. Potatoes were only  introduced when I was a child and now it is a general food." This was the food  that made fine men and gallant soldiers. They are not however, now to be seen.  The people now are a thin meagre, half-starved-looking and stunted race. The  worst sign they exhibit however is their abject apathy. The fact is, they are  starved down, and kept in such perpetual terror of losing their crofts, their  only livelihood, that they are spirit-broken and hopeless. I saw a school of  some 20 children today. I do not think in any by-alley in London in the most  impure and confined atmosphere you could see 20 children with such pallid faces  and thin half-fed forms as these poor children, living on a hillside facing the  sea. Now what are the chief features of the population of this place? The total  absence of a middle class—there is no middle class and a starving poor. It may  fairly be asked, is not this a natural consequence of such a state of society. *I  think there can be no question of it. There is, close to the shore here, an  exhaustless supply of fish—cod, ling, herrings, haddocks, lobsters. Smacks  from London fish off the coast. The owners make money by it, or they would not  do it. But the owners of these smacks are enterprising middle-class men who  employ the poorer class. There is no middle class man here (in Tongue) to employ  the poor. What is the result? There is not a single fishing boat at this place.  The sheep farmers see it, and the minister sees it and the factor sees it, and  they say "Look at these lazy people—clear them out." Why? What can they do?  Did the lowest class of poor in England ever project and carry through any  enterprise?*

----------


## cptdodger

I have just been reading that, the paragraph above it is just as bad, dear me. The minister seems to think that the "poor" were a different breed, (for want of a better description) than the "middle class" Going by that description, that was probably how they were treated - as third class citizens. And to be fair, if they could hardly feed themselves, where were these fishing boats supposed to come from? I'm no expert, but I would imagine it would take a fair amount of skill to build one. 

The paragraph above that one goes into detail regarding the (if you could call it that) housing -

 "The mud hut or hovel in which this man and his wife  live is inconceivably wretched. One room with uneven mud floor, full of holes;  peat fire in the middle on the floor, the smoke going out at the door; potatoes  in one corner, the bed in another, a wood stool and two or three dishes and pans  in another - all however, begrimed with peat smoke or covered with the dirt of  the unswept mud floor." That was 1845.

Then if you look at Edinburgh for example, by 1850, most of what they call the New Town was built, which includes Princes Street, George Street, Charlotte Square and so on. It was as if (and this is not meant as derogatory) the poor souls in the Highlands were living in another century. If you compare the two they are just worlds apart.

----------


## rob murray

> I have just been reading that, the paragraph above it is just as bad, dear me. The minister seems to think that the "poor" were a different breed, (for want of a better description) than the "middle class" Going by that description, that was probably how they were treated - as third class citizens. And to be fair, if they could hardly feed themselves, where were these fishing boats supposed to come from? I'm no expert, but I would imagine it would take a fair amount of skill to build one. 
> 
> The paragraph above that one goes into detail regarding the (if you could call it that) housing -
> 
>  "The mud hut or hovel in which this man and his wife  live is inconceivably wretched. One room with uneven mud floor, full of holes;  peat fire in the middle on the floor, the smoke going out at the door; potatoes  in one corner, the bed in another, a wood stool and two or three dishes and pans  in another - all however, begrimed with peat smoke or covered with the dirt of  the unswept mud floor." That was 1845.
> 
> Then if you look at Edinburgh for example, by 1850, most of what they call the New Town was built, which includes Princes Street, George Street, Charlotte Square and so on. It was as if (and this is not meant as derogatory) the poor souls in the Highlands were living in another century. If you compare the two they are just worlds apart.


Good points, you could say that there were 2 worlds, although doubtless Edinburgh / Glasgow had their big grand buildings but were still infested with horrendous slums for the ordinary people : the article is a good historical read, many thanks to Moureen for bringing this one to all our attention

----------


## cptdodger

I think we see everything from a 21st century perspective, as in how could that happen, was there nothing in place for the poorest people in the Highlands and as you say Rob, the Cities. I might be wrong but I do'nt think the welfare state (as we know it) came into play until the 1940's, certainly, the NHS was'nt founded until 1947/48. I also believe it was a criminal offence to be poor back then. Compared to what those poor souls endured, our lives are easy.

Moureen, I agree, very informative, I am just grateful I can read it as a historical document, and not as part of my family history, if it could possibly be worse, it would be knowing a member of your family, regardless how far back, went through that. I used to wonder why people got upset when they were filming "Who do you think you are" because there ancestors had passed away years before, but I can see why now.

----------


## moureen

Glad you all found article as interesting as I did but so sad.My family moved to Tongue when I was about 5 I have always found the history of my Highland blood interesting.

----------


## rob murray

> I think we see everything from a 21st century perspective, as in how could that happen, was there nothing in place for the poorest people in the Highlands and as you say Rob, the Cities. I might be wrong but I do'nt think the welfare state (as we know it) came into play until the 1940's, certainly, the NHS was'nt founded until 1947/48. I also believe it was a criminal offence to be poor back then. Compared to what those poor souls endured, our lives are easy.
> 
> Moureen, I agree, very informative, I am just grateful I can read it as a historical document, and not as part of my family history, if it could possibly be worse, it would be knowing a member of your family, regardless how far back, went through that. I used to wonder why people got upset when they were filming "Who do you think you are" because there ancestors had passed away years before, but I can see why now.


You make a very good point on the emotions often seen in Who do you think you are.  Help for the distressed in the c19th century was delivered at local levels by parish councils who administered poor law relief paid from out of rates, in extreme circumstances government intervened as they did in the Highlands but government money was managed by local agents, in the case of areas in the Highalnds which suffered from the clearances ie Tongue being a clear example here, to give out money to the distressed was admitting to a problem that the poor law relief boards ( usually staffed with factors ) caused themelves, ie people were in distressed circumtances precisily because of their ( the factors ) actions, so to keep the tin lid on the issues they caused the factors were very harsh in managing the money. In general  if you met poor law relief criteria you got a little, but in most cases people had to enter the work house where at least they had a roof over their heads and were "fed". However in wee highland places it wasnt economic to have a work house, so a double whammy, no poor law relief, very ( if any ) access to government funds for poor law and no easy access to a "local" work house.

Insured benefits ie unemployent benefit was introduced in c1910 and as long as you had paid your contributions you got benefits, when your "stamps" ran out you had to apply for means tested benefits, where before you got anything your circumstances were investigated..."surplus" goods you would have to be sell before you got a penny, and that was the situation up until 1948 when the national assistance act was passed ie when unemployment benefit entitlement ran out you applied for national assistance and means testing was abolished. Workhouses although abolished at a national level in 1930 actually continued as run by local councils as "municpal hospitals" up until the national assistance act 1948.

----------


## cptdodger

Just out of interest Rob, if you ever have the occasion to attend Raigmore for an appointment, on their television they go through the history of how all the hospitals in the Highland Region came to be, as in former workhouses and so on, it's very interesting.

----------


## rob murray

> Just out of interest Rob, if you ever have the occasion to attend Raigmore for an appointment, on their television they go through the history of how all the hospitals in the Highland Region came to be, as in former workhouses and so on, it's very interesting.


Hope I never have to .....but the history you allude to sounds fascintating, thanks maybe as a vistor I can look it up.

----------


## cptdodger

I can't remember who actually does it, but the next time I am there, I will take a note of their website.

----------


## rob murray

> I can't remember who actually does it, but the next time I am there, I will take a note of their website.


That would be much appreciated thank you very much

----------


## rob murray

heres a good site with hisorical caithness links well worth trawling through http://www.happyhaggis.co.uk/caithness.htm

----------


## cptdodger

> heres a good site with hisorical caithness links well worth trawling through http://www.happyhaggis.co.uk/caithness.htm


That looks very interesting, thank you ! One question, this is re The Clearances, it says people went to Canada, USA and Australia, obviously they got there by boat, but who paid for their passage ?

----------


## rob murray

> That looks very interesting, thank you ! One question, this is re The Clearances, it says people went to Canada, USA and Australia, obviously they got there by boat, but who paid for their passage ?


Yer keepig me on my feet ! see this link https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...lonies&f=false basically assisted passages were on offer ( free transport ) and was part of government policy to populate Australia ( with good people, not crims transported ) and bolster NZ population, anywhere the Brits had an interest in fact ( Canada...Nova Scotia...New Scotland ) , build up colonies and solve problems of poor law relief, cheaper to get people out than to look after them. In the north there was obviously Wick / Thurso harbours and other harbours in North West Sutherland and the islands that people would need to get to as that would be where the ships salied from. 
_ Read below : very grim ...sorry...but facts are facts

1851 :  Highland proprietors were clearing  their estates with renewed vengeance in the aftermath of the (potato) famine,  and being assisted by public money made available to them by the Emigration  Advance Act of that year.... Conditions on board emigrant ships were often said  to be worse than those prevailing on slave ships. The fitter and healthier a  slave cargo the higher the price they fetched, but emigrants were they to die in mid‑ocean that would save on the cost of  provisions and make for a higher profit margin. Two ships which sailed from the  West Highlands for Nova Scotia in 1801 with seven hundred emigrants would only  have been permitted four hundred and eighty‑nine 'passengers' had they been  slaves putting out from the Gambia. Three out of every twenty emigrants died on  board one of these ships ... and in the six years between 1847 and 1853 at  least forty‑nine emigrant ships were lost at sea."

see also http://www.cranntara.org.uk/clear5.htm_

----------


## cptdodger

Is'nt it awful, but I suppose they were between a rock and a hard place, what do you do, stay to starve or take your chances. Then again they would'nt have known the conditions on board before they boarded the ship, it seems they were told they were going to the promised land.

A trial of a former Nazi has just finished in the last couple of days, and on the news they were interviewing survivors who rightly said the Holocaust should never be forgotten, and it does go through my head, how could it be. But if you take The Clearances, which lasted for nearly one hundred years, I honestly knew nothing about them, I actually asked people I had been at school with all through Primary and Secondary  if they remember being taught about it, and they all said no, and I went to school in Broughty Ferry, I just do not understand how an event that literally changed the landscape of the Highlands can be completely missed from the curriculum.

----------


## golach

It's been brought to my attention that your MP the good Doctor has tweeted that his fellow MP, Mhari Black's maiden speech has been viewed on YouTube 6,500,000 times the actual figure is 172,428 , that's a big exaggeration

----------


## cptdodger

> It's been brought to my attention that your MP the good Doctor has tweeted that his fellow MP, Mhari Black's maiden speech has been viewed on YouTube 6,500,000 times the actual figure is 172,428 , that's a big exaggeration


And sadly I can guarantee every single one of his "followers" (I think that's what they are called on twitter) will believe him, no questions asked.

----------


## Sandra

Some more details here:http://www.heart.co.uk/scotland/news...bhgh6utGDc7.97

----------


## BetterTogether

There is a world of difference between how many views something gets on the Internet and how many people have actually seen it, the two should not be confused as no doubt quite a number of people have either watched it more than once or surfed onto the link then moved away quickly thus boosting the numbers. It's no secret that certain groups of people will hyper inflate viewing figures on some sites to make it appear more credible than is actually the case. This may well be one of those times.

----------


## richardj

Well the BBC are now saying over 10 million views and in my opinion it is worth a watch (I was pleasantly surprised) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-33585087  - The only thing that was missing were Members of Parliament from other parties!

----------


## Scout

I have looked at it and yes she did talk, too me waffled on, she would of got a nice payment for that as every MP & MSP stands up to talk gets paid. What I would like to know what action will SNP take for Scotland, will they get on with their jobs or we will just have to hear more waffle, They seem to say more in London then they do in Holyrood.

----------


## BetterTogether

> I have looked at it and yes she did talk, too me waffled on, she would of got a nice payment for that as every MP & MSP stands up to talk gets paid. What I would like to know what action will SNP take for Scotland, will they get on with their jobs or we will just have to hear more waffle, They seem to say more in London then they do in Holyrood.


 What has to be considered is, if you don't grandstand sufficiently, you don't get noticed and then you don't get paid lots by various media outlets to voice your opinion. All I'm seeing is another potential career politician trying to make a name for herself and jumping on the gravy boat nice and early. As you quite rightly state it's more about what action you take to sort out your constituents lives for the better, not just the SNP voters but all the constituents. As of yet she has yet to prove herself worthy of anything more than giving a noteworthy speech. Time will be her great reckoner.

----------


## cptdodger

Hang on a minute now, MP's get a salary of however much, are you saying that if they make a speech in Westminster, they get paid extra for that?

----------


## cptdodger

I have just had a look at The Scottish Parliament website, suffice to say I picked the wrong career -

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/St...April_2015.pdf

----------


## rogermellie

if you want a career with as high a salary as an MP and a lot less accountability then you should look at becoming a manager with the Highland Council

----------


## cptdodger

> if you want a career with as high a salary as an MP and a lot less accountability then you should look at becoming a manager with the Highland Council


I have to tell you, the amount of run ins I have had with the Highland Council (THE masters of passing the buck!), that's probably not the best career path for me either ! 

Seriously though, I worked in retail for years, I used to get paid for 39 hours and that was it, I do'nt think I ever worked a 39 hour week ! I worked it out once (at the time) I was on less than £2 per hour. That was retail though, I do'nt know how MP's justify a salary like that when just as an example, nurses are barely scraping by.

----------


## rob murray

> I have to tell you, the amount of run ins I have had with the Highland Council (THE masters of passing the buck!), that's probably not the best career path for me either ! 
> 
> Seriously though, I worked in retail for years, I used to get paid for 39 hours and that was it, I do'nt think I ever worked a 39 hour week ! I worked it out once (at the time) I was on less than £2 per hour. That was retail though, I do'nt know how MP's justify a salary like that when just as an example, nurses are barely scraping by.


Greed...matching their inflated egos....hardly any of our politicans have ever worked, they dont know nowt of the stress involved in business, ie paying a 35k monthly salary bill when orders and work are drying up...now thats stress..... speaking from first hand expereince, not pleasurable at all... ages you, makes you more open to illness in my case high blood pressure. Retail you make a good point, hard long work, not valued and treated like sh**e and as you say no clock watching ( my wife worked in retail until I stopped it the minute we could live without her earnins ) ... my experinece with HC and a local councilor was also shocking...really inept 100% : theyer more wrapped up in the game of politics  did you know that at least 8 HC senior managers earn over £100k a year ( and have huge pensions ) , when challenged on this the excuse was that they ( HC ) had to pay the market rate....well I know dozens of very expereinced local qualified people who would gladly do the job at half the amount. Normal HC employees, front line workers are not well paid...wonder why....cos the pigs have their snouts well and truly in the pot thats why

----------


## BetterTogether

I do love the way they councils claim they have to pay market rates. Well where in the private sector is the equivalent of a councillor, private companies make profit and pay their directors and senior managers from those profits if they fail they are summarily dismissed. I see no justification for paying these ridiculous sums to people who time and again show they are not up to the job, inefficient and out of touch with what their constituents actually want.

----------


## rob murray

> I do love the way they councils claim they have to pay market rates. Well where in the private sector is the equivalent of a councillor, private companies make profit and pay their directors and senior managers from those profits if they fail they are summarily dismissed. I see no justification for paying these ridiculous sums to people who time and again show they are not up to the job, inefficient and out of touch with what their constituents actually want.


Couldnt have put it better, I suppose councilors can be voted out, full time fat cat employees can in theory be made redundant...but we all know that redundancy packages  for those type are huge. The law only requires 1 weeks pay per year of service...so heres a clear example of the law being flouted and we pay for it !!!!  One guy took a 6 figure redundncay from HIE and started a 6 figure job with HC in the same month...IN business if yu dont make the numbers and your responisble your out, if the busess doesnt do the numbers then the business will shut, you cant hide from economics...unless your a fat cat public sector worker, MP and MSP...ok the latter 2 can be voted out but for public sector fat cats / bankers etc....puuuuke !!!

----------


## cptdodger

> Greed...matching their inflated egos....hardly any of our politicans have ever worked, they dont know nowt of the stress involved in business, ie paying a 35k monthly salary bill when orders and work are drying up...now thats stress..... speaking from first hand expereince, not pleasurable at all... ages you, makes you more open to illness in my case high blood pressure. Retail you make a good point, hard long work, not valued and treated like sh**e and as you say no clock watching ( my wife worked in retail until I stopped it the minute we could live without her earnins ) ... my experinece with HC and a local councilor was also shocking...really inept 100% : theyer more wrapped up in the game of politics  did you know that at least 8 HC senior managers earn over £100k a year ( and have huge pensions ) , when challenged on this the excuse was that they ( HC ) had to pay the market rate....well I know dozens of very expereinced local qualified people who would gladly do the job at half the amount. Normal HC employees, front line workers are not well paid...wonder why....cos the pigs have their snouts well and truly in the pot thats why


I quite agree with the stress part, I worked in a hotel last year, now I know how a business should be run, but dear me, I never knew stress was physical until I ended up in Caithness General with a suspected heart attack, I got myself that wound up, and all I was getting paid was the minimum wage. I think once you have been a manager (and by no means was I ever on the salary an MP or Highland Council manager is on) it's hard to get out of that mindset, and stupidly I tried to sort everything out, I am not the type of person that when my shift finished, I left it at the door. 

Rogermellie is right, nobody at the Council is accountable for anything, and unfortunately, it's the people on the front line that get it in the neck, and they are on a minute percentage of what the bosses are on, I have to say I really feel for them.

----------


## BetterTogether

Back to the original subject, is it only me that doesn't see the problem with an MSP from a working class background who has recently been elected and finished a degree at University bemoaning the lack of lifestyle opportunities in Scotland. I wish I'd of had those opportunities at the age of 20!

----------


## cptdodger

> I do love the way they councils claim they have to pay market rates. Well where in the private sector is the equivalent of a councillor, private companies make profit and pay their directors and senior managers from those profits if they fail they are summarily dismissed. I see no justification for paying these ridiculous sums to people who time and again show they are not up to the job, inefficient and out of touch with what their constituents actually want.


All I want is for somebody to sort out the NHS ! By that I do'nt mean the people that actually work there, I have always been treated wonderfully if I have had to go to any of the hospitals here. I mean I do'nt want to have to keep going to Raigmore what feels like every 5 minutes, when there is a perfectly good hospital in Wick.

----------


## rob murray

> I quite agree with the stress part, I worked in a hotel last year, now I know how a business should be run, but dear me, I never knew stress was physical until I ended up in Caithness General with a suspected heart attack, I got myself that wound up, and all I was getting paid was the minimum wage. I think once you have been a manager (and by no means was I ever on the salary an MP or Highland Council manager is on) it's hard to get out of that mindset, and stupidly I tried to sort everything out, I am not the type of person that when my shift finished, I left it at the door. 
> 
> Rogermellie is right, nobody at the Council is accountable for anything, and unfortunately, it's the people on the front line that get it in the neck, and they are on a minute percentage of what the bosses are on, I have to say I really feel for them.


Sorry to hear this, stress is a slient killer, Im on permamant medication for high blood pressure and have been for a few years following collapsing in Palma Airport with high blood pressure ( spent 10 days in a Majorcan hospital lol lol  ) . Like yersel I cant and still cant just leave things at work, Ive been in business for 16 years and I guess it took its toll on me and still does.  I sometimes have to swithc off from the org as well as I get very wound up whihc is why I fair enjoyed the history thread.

----------


## rob murray

> Back to the original subject, is it only me that doesn't see the problem with an MSP from a working class background who has recently been elected and finished a degree at University bemoaning the lack of lifestyle opportunities in Scotland. I wish I'd of had those opportunities at the age of 20!


Shes been very, very fortunate in terms of the opportunities she has in front of her, thats all I will say.

----------


## rob murray

Here's a thought... in Scotland we have one sided classfluidity. The middle classes are allowed to air brush themselves out, continually kidding on they're 'one of us'... but the working class are denied a foot on the ladder due to the education system / college cuts / lack of decent jobs.

Middle class in Scotland is viewed as an English phenomenon, truth is In scotladn too these people are allowed to reap the benefits of a supposedly equal system without actually opening themselves up to competition from below.

----------


## cptdodger

Somewhere on this thread we were talking about poor houses in the Highlands, I saw this on the Highland Archive Centre Facebook page and thought it might be of some interest -

Easter Ross Union Poorhouse Plans, c.1850 (HCA/CRC/8/5/12)
  The Easter Ross Union poorhouse was built in 1849-50 on a site to the  south of Tain known as Arthurville. It was the first new poorhouse to be  set up in the Highlands after the 1845 Scottish Poor Law Act.
  The Scottish Poor Law Act of 1845 authorised the levy of local rates to  pay for relief of the poor, it also authorised the building of poor  houses by parishes or combinations of parishes. Implementation of this  law was difficult and often led to an  increase in the poor rates. The nine parishes of Easter Ross (including  Tain) managed to avoid such an increase by creating a Poor Law Union and  building the first Combination Poor House in Scotland. The example set  by Easter Ross would be followed by the creation of Poor Law Unions in  other parts of Scotland in subsequent years.
  The building shown in these plans could accommodate up to 160 inmates  and admitted its first pauper on the 11th October 1850. Construction  costs, and fees for the architect, Andrew Maitland, were originally  estimated at £1,750 but the final bill was £2,524. As well these plans  the Highland Archive Centre also holds Admission Registers from the  founding of the poor house in 1850.

----------


## rob murray

Yep good stuff..Arthurville is now an expensive area in Tain houses there are c£250k minimum.......no longer a poor house eh !

----------


## cptdodger

Good lord, so the further south, obviously the more expensive the property. You can get rather a lot for your money up here, in my opinion anyway. I have seen in Dundee, that a lot of the older buildings are being turned into flats, the DRI (Dundee Royal Infirmary) for what it was, was a beautiful building, I do'nt think I would buy a basement flat though, knowing my luck it would be the mortuary !! Also the Limb Fitting Centre which, and I thought this was a lovely touch, was renamed Bader House in Broughty Ferry (opposite what was the Post Office and St Mary's Church), there are some beautiful flats in there, but I used to sing in St Mary's Church choir when I was at school and we used to pop over there after Evensong for the patients there to have a service. I do'nt honestly know if I could see myself living there without the memories, we got to know a lot of the long term residents including a twelve year old boy, who bless him had cancer. 

Having said that, I am so pleased regardless of what the buildings are being used for, they are being used !

This is a very old photo of the DRI, although the building remains the same, the surroundings do not !

https://c4.staticflickr.com/4/3808/1...2a4496aa_b.jpg

----------


## rob murray

> Good lord, so the further south, obviously the more expensive the property. You can get rather a lot for your money up here, in my opinion anyway. I have seen in Dundee, that a lot of the older buildings are being turned into flats, the DRI (Dundee Royal Infirmary) for what it was, was a beautiful building, I do'nt think I would buy a basement flat though, knowing my luck it would be the mortuary !! Also the Limb Fitting Centre which, and I thought this was a lovely touch, was renamed Bader House in Broughty Ferry (opposite what was the Post Office and St Mary's Church), there are some beautiful flats in there, but I used to sing in St Mary's Church choir when I was at school and we used to pop over there after Evensong for the patients there to have a service. I do'nt honestly know if I could see myself living there without the memories, we got to know a lot of the long term residents including a twelve year old boy, who bless him had cancer. 
> 
> Having said that, I am so pleased regardless of what the buildings are being used for, they are being used !


Yep, Inverness to Dornoch is really expensive compared to Caithness, houses that I see in WIck for £140k go for over £220k down here in fact you cant get anything reasonably good for less than £200k...and these houses usually need work done to them. I dont know where the poor house was in Wick or if Thurso had one but the rural poor house is still standing just outside Latheron drving south on your left hand side, an old building that someone has tried doing up and stopped !

----------


## cptdodger

I will have to have a look for that. I might be wrong, but I thought Dunbar Hospital in Thurso originated as a poor house, but I can't remember, it was certainly mentioned on that video at Raigmore. I did find this however - http://www.visitoruk.com/thurso/19th-century-T2056.html

----------


## cazmanian_minx

The Thurso poorhouse was just north of Halkirk - it's flats now.

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Thurso/

----------


## cptdodger

> The Thurso poorhouse was just north of Halkirk - it's flats now.http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Thurso/


Of course, thank you it's the long white house near the horses! I used to live in Halkirk as well !

----------


## Keyser_soze

I didnt want them coz theyre a waste of my taxes, theres far more important things to spend money on in the community than signs no one can read or cares about

----------

