# General > General >  Wikileaks?

## mrlennie

Anyone seen this? 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11858895

As fas as I can tell a huge amount of documents have been released from the different US embassies around the world...as far as I can tell... ::

----------


## bekisman

OK, so in Yemen it was the Yanks who were controlling the drones which knocked off al-Qaeda , and the Yemeni's knew it, why they even told their people it was them, not the Americans. So now with this Assange wanted in Sweden for rape, publishes this.. what the hell does he think will happen? Yemen is a very unstable country, high possibility of a government overthrow.. but hey, large scale killings; pah, it's publicity..

Found this: _"Here's my problem with Wikileaks--they have gone from a whistleblower website, presumably standing up for the little guy who uncovers a company's or government's unethical dealings (like dumping toxic sludge in the drinking water or ethnic cleansings) to being an anti-USA platform.

What ideal does Assange stand for? Openness? Certain things should not be open. State secrets are one of them, especially when it comes to military/diplomatic cables or intentions.

But right now he is waging a war against secrecy of all forms without acknowledging that some secrecy is good. I almost think he would publish the launch codes to Russian/USA/Indian/Pakistan/N. Korean nuclear ICBMs if he uncovered them.

That's why his team is fracturing from within. It seems everyone recognizes his folly except him. At some point a state government is going to classify him as a clear and present danger to their national security and 'neutralize' him, and no one will bat an eye.

Oh the irony."_

So very very true - these Saudis hold grudges, and won't be happy that Assange has released details of conversations in which they ask the Yanks to bomb Iran.. 

watch this space

----------


## ducati

Yes, good reason to shut them down and put him in a deep dark hole.

I am amazed at the tolerence the Americans, (and British) have shown so far.

----------


## RecQuery

_"Beware_ of  _he_ who would deny _you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself_ your _master."_

What price freedom? for too long the state secrets label has been used to with hold legitimate information.

If the mainstream media got off it's ass and did this he wouldn't have to.

Argh, seriously that quoted thing seems like the justification they used against Kevin Mitnick to 'stop him whistling nuclear launch codes over the phone'

So releasing not very secret or for that matter dangerous secrets is justification for assassination. Also strange how that rape charge materialised, sounds like opportunism to me.

I'll admit some secrets need protecting for a limited period, but not these.

----------


## The Drunken Duck

> _"Beware_ of  _he_ who would deny _you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself_ your _master."_
> 
> What price freedom? for too long the state secrets label has been used to with hold legitimate information.
> 
> If the mainstream media got off it's ass and did this he wouldn't have to.
> 
> Argh, seriously that quoted thing seems like the justification they used against Kevin Mitnick to 'stop him whistling nuclear launch codes over the phone'
> 
> So releasing not very secret or for that matter dangerous secrets is justification for assassination. Also strange how that rape charge materialised, sounds like opportunism to me.
> ...


Oh right. So the stuff I knew from working with the Yanks, that is classified pretty high, makes me "your master" because I wont divulge it. 

Crap.

The very people who think that the Government should divulge info whenever they want it are the same people who would cop a thrombo if the same Government sent an official to their home to quiz them on details they saw as being their right to deny them.

Here is a simple fact for you .. Bloggs in the street does not have a right to know whatever he wants. Just like we have a right to withold certain personal information from the Government. Throw a hissy, bawl your eyes out or just accept it. It matters not. I know stuff that was, and is, still classified. Big Deal. Lots of people do. if you were to tell me you had a right to know I would ask you to tell me WHY you need to know. I certainly don't feel the need to know EVERYTHING the Government of any nation does.

If you were an Iraqi or Afghan with your name in one of these, or the previously released documents, that had worked for, or informed for us or the Yanks you would be singing a different tune. And very scared. What Wikileaks did was release sensitive information, and names, that people who don't like us very much would find useful, and all to feed the ego of a pasty faced little nobody. The only reason I wouldn't punch that little rat Assange is because I don't think I would be able to stop. The link at the bottom shows what happens to those who help us when caught by their countrymen, like he cares the arrogant little waste of skin, blood, organs and oxygen. He is too busy fawning in the limelight .. (caution .. the description of what happened to "Muhammed" as described in the e-mails gets a bit graphic) .. http://www.michaelyon-online.com/our...suffer-too.htm

----------


## Phill

I'm beginning to see a smoke & mirrors game going on here.
Attention diversion may be?

I wonder who is actually doing the leaking and just how much is being 'leaked'.

I see the real important stuff is 'out' there too:

_"One US diplomat was said to be shocked at the "rude behaviour" of the British queen's second son, Prince Andrew, when abroad."_

_"Meanwhile, Colonel Muammar Gaddafi of Libya always travels  with a "voluptuous blonde" Ukrainian nurse, according to one of the  cables" 
_




Now I wouldn't say I'm cynical but if Mr Assange had really upset people I'm sure he would have had an accident in a tunnel by now, or radiation poisoning, or topped himself in the woods, or suffered a huge heart attack................

----------


## RecQuery

Okay granted I was purposely being dogmatic to give a dissenting opinion and as I've said some information can be kept secret but not forever. "If you have nothing to hide then you've nothing to fear" I think that's the line governments (ours and the US) have thrown around, when passing certain legislation. The sensitive stuff, the 1.4GB of information kept as insurance hasn't been released.

I think the whole 'this will endanger lives' argument is used to try and suppress information. Granted some stuff should be held back but most of the stuff in this leak are diplomatic cables, most of which expose things the public needs to know. The problem is people just blanket everything as being restricted ideally I'd like to see the government justify to itself why something needs to be secret instead of the other way around. I have access to information the general public doesn't need to know, none of it will affect them in any way.

The leaks are not the problem. The root of the problem is the hypocritical policies and unsavoury conduct that the leaks are exposing. Most governments think they should be able to communicate frankly while engaging in dodgy stuff that goes against their country's founding ideals, constitution, international bill of human rights, and modern ideals of liberty and freedom.

*EDIT:* What I'd consider information the public may want to know

 - Mossad wants to divide iran in 3 parts
 - The US kidnapped the wrong German citizen then urged the Germans not to do anything
 - The US wanting information on individual MPs.
 - How the hacker attacks which forced Google to quit China in January were orchestrated by a senior member of the Politburo who typed his own name into the global version of the search engine and found articles criticising him personally.
 - Allegations that Russia and its intelligence agencies are using mafia bosses to carry out criminal operations, with one cable reporting that the relationship is so close that the country has become a "virtual mafia state".
 - Devastating criticism of the UK's military operations in Afghanistan by US commanders, the Afghan president and local officials in Helmand. The dispatches reveal particular contempt for the failure to impose security around Sangin – the town which has claimed more British lives than any other in the country.
 - Allegations that Russia and its intelligence agencies are using mafia bosses to carry out criminal operations, with one cable reporting that the relationship is so close that the country has become a "virtual mafia state".
 - Suspicions of corruption in the Afghan government, with one cable alleging that vice-president Zia Massoud was carrying $52m in cash when he was stopped during a visit to the United Arab Emirates. Massoud denies taking money out of Afghanistan.

Many more...

----------


## bekisman

> I'm beginning to see a smoke & mirrors game going on here.
> Attention diversion may be?
> 
> I wonder who is actually doing the leaking and just how much is being 'leaked'.
> 
> I see the real important stuff is 'out' there too:
> 
> _"One US diplomat was said to be shocked at the "rude behaviour" of the British queen's second son, Prince Andrew, when abroad."_
> 
> ...


Who passed them on?: U.S. Army soldier Bradley Manning, a 'hot-headed loner' [so what] who grew up in Britain. The 23-year-old military intelligence officer was arrested in Iraq in June and charged over an earlier disclosure to WikiLeaks. Held at Quantico Marine Barracks in Virginia, he faces a maximum 52 years in jail. 

U.S. believe Pfc Manning, who is openly homosexual, [so what] was behind the leaks of war logs from Iraq and Afghanistan, and the top secret State Department missives.

It is a far cry from the 'quiet nerd' [so what] who went to school in Haverfordwest, in Pembrokeshire, Wales, where his seriously-ill mother Susan still lives.
Initially Manning bragged to Adrian Lamo, a hacker, who turned him, in, after Manning said that he was going to unleash "worldwide anarchy in CSV [comma separated value] format." 
Lamo had contacted a former Army counterintelligence agent; Timothy Webster and informed him. The rest is history

Oh by the way these are quotes from a number of sources, easilly found

----------


## RecQuery

> Who passed them on?: U.S. Army soldier Bradley Manning, a 'hot-headed loner' who grew up in Britain.  The 23-year-old military intelligence officer was arrested in Iraq in June and charged over an earlier disclosure to WikiLeaks. Held at Quantico Marine Barracks in Virginia, he faces a maximum 52 years in jail. 
> 
> U.S. believe Pfc Manning, who is openly homosexual, was behind the leaks of war logs from Iraq and Afghanistan, and the top secret State Department missives.
> 
> It is a far cry from the 'quiet nerd' who went to school in Haverfordwest, in Pembrokeshire, Wales, where his seriously-ill mother Susan still lives.
> Initially Manning bragged to Adrian Lamo, a hacker, who turned him, in, after Manning said that he was going to unleash "worldwide anarchy in CSV [comma separated value] format." 
> Lamo had contacted a former Army counterintelligence agent; Timothy Webster and informed him. The rest is history


LOL that entire thing reads like a Fox News/Daily Mail article I'm assuming it's a quote. Apparently the fact that he's an ohh-scare-loner, a nerd and that he's homosexual is relevant somehow. Kind of weird that a private, even an intelligence officer would have access to all that information with obfuscation put in place.

----------


## John Little

Difficult one really.

It is axiomatic to me that for a government to function properly then it has to be able to function in confidence.  If it cannot then it impairs what is tabled for discussion.

On the other hand we would like our government to be fair and open and transparent.

But it ain't and to think otherwise is naive.  Even on a local level things get done for published reasons which are not the real reasons at all.

In the end it is about the exercise of power and its ability to shape outcomes, relationships and bring benefits.  

To us.

So on balance I think government should be able to function in confidence in my name - we are after all a _representative_ democracy. 
Leaks are excusable if they are something outrageous affecting us all- but not this sort of thing.

All it will do is damage the confidence of people who deal with the yanks- and us- and stop them being open with us.

----------


## tonkatojo

> Difficult one really.
> 
> It is axiomatic to me that for a government to function properly then it has to be able to function in confidence.  If it cannot then it impairs what is tabled for discussion.
> 
> On the other hand we would like our government to be fair and open and transparent.
> 
> But it ain't and to think otherwise is naive.  Even on a local level things get done for published reasons which are not the real reasons at all.
> 
> In the end it is about the exercise of power and its ability to shape outcomes, relationships and bring benefits.  
> ...


I sort of agree with some if this but to say the "yanks" are open with us is taking fantasy too far. :Wink:

----------


## billmoseley

my worry with all these leaks are one day they will cost lives and 1000,000 secrets aren't worth one life. so i hope it's stopped before someone gets hurt

----------


## Nomad

.........lies

----------


## John Little

Secrets and......................





> I sort of agree with some if this but to say the "yanks" are open with us is taking fantasy too far.


 
Good point!

But we do tend to get lumped in with them.

----------


## bekisman

> LOL that entire thing reads like a Fox News/Daily Mail article I'm assuming it's a quote. Apparently the fact that he's an ohh-scare-loner, a nerd and that he's homosexual is relevant somehow. Kind of weird that a private, even an intelligence officer would have access to all that information with obfuscation put in place.


Seems that after 9/11 the yanks attempted to make sure that more _department_s were aware of more 'things' - seems now this will certainly change.. can't see any government speaking privately and confidentially to another now.. of course a LOT of info is being held back by Assange, so 'maybe' it won't result in too many deaths..

"The secret U.S. government files released to WikiLeaks are thought to have been stored on a military database that *millions of soldiers* and embassies around the world have access to."
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...=feeds-newsxml

----------


## bekisman

Ah I see it's all clear now, it's our former Colonials who are behind it all!:

In response to a question by Press TV on Monday over the whistleblower website's "leaks," President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said "let me first correct you. The material was not leaked, but rather released in an organized way." 

"The US administration released them and based on them they pass judgment . [The documents] have no legal value and will not have the political effect they seek," the Iranian chief executive added at the press briefing in Tehran. 

Ahmadinejad stressed that the _Wikileaks_ "game" is "not worth commenting upon and that no one would waste their time reviewing them." 

Nevertheless, analysts believe the recent document release is a scenario carefully orchestrated by US intelligence agencies to deflect attention from the United States' domestic problems, upset the situation in the region and lay the groundwork for military action against Iran. 


http://www.presstv.ir/detail/153128.html

----------


## oldmarine

This would have been something if it had happened during USA President Franklin D. Roosevelt's term in office when he wanted to get the US of A into a war that the majority of citizens did not want to go to war. He had to do something to help Churchill with his fight against the Axis powers. So the theory is that FDR set it up for the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor and FDR made it easy for the Japanese to have access to attack Pearl Harbor by pulling the Aircraft Carriers out of Pearl harbor and lining all the aircraft at the various air fields up in rows.  This made it easy for the Japs to knock out most of the aircraft as well as the battle ships and other types of ships tied up in the harbor. The major concern would have been the aircraft carriers which were ordered out to sea so they could not provide a good defense against the incoming Jap planes. Many of we old WW2 vets believe that is what happened. Sounds very plausible to me.

----------


## bekisman

Ahhh, oh no! please, don't get F...d going!!  :Wink:

----------


## theone

I had no problems with wiki leaks when they were releasing videos of friendly fire incidents or civilian deaths. I could understand their purpose, anti war or anti US foreign policy, even if I didn't agree with it.

But what they're releasing now, what's the point? What "cause" are they trying to promote?

These assessments of politicians will only cause problems. Publishing the views of middle eastern leaders promoting the destruction of Iran's nuclear facilities can only inflame tensions in the most volatile part of the world.

To me, wikileaks are no longer exposing "truths" that should arguably be in the public domain, the are promoting hostility, disharmony, and encouraging anarchy and war.

For that reason I no longer respect what they are doing and hope those responsible for the leaks and their publication are punished for it.

Treason? I think it's pretty close.

----------


## theone

> This would have been something if it had happened during USA President Franklin D. Roosevelt's term in office when he wanted to get the US of A into a war that the majority of citizens did not want to go to war. He had to do something to help Churchill with his fight against the Axis powers. So the theory is that FDR set it up for the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor and FDR made it easy for the Japanese to have access to attack Pearl Harbor by pulling the Aircraft Carriers out of Pearl harbor and lining all the aircraft at the various air fields up in rows.  This made it easy for the Japs to knock out most of the aircraft as well as the battle ships and other types of ships tied up in the harbor. The major concern would have been the aircraft carriers which were ordered out to sea so they could not provide a good defense against the incoming Jap planes. Many of we old WW2 vets believe that is what happened. Sounds very plausible to me.


Quite plausible.

I remember a similar story about Thatcher removing UK patrols around the Falklands prior to their invasion.

Could it be true? - definately. Is is true? - who knows?

If wikileaks were promoting the truths that they think the people should know, fair enough, but they're no longer doing that and I see no benefit from releasing the latest "news".

----------


## ducati

Come on then Wikileaks, if you're so clever, when are you going to publish  something interesting like pictures of the space craft they have in Area 51?

----------


## Anfield

Ithas been alleged that the current crop of Wikileaks have been sourced from a USA Defence network called "Siprnet"  (Siprnet (Secret Internet Protocol Router Network).
So secret is this network that it was designed for the excahange of information  up to "secret" level i.e. the  level for information that would cause "serious damage" to national  security.

Amongst some of the security features of this network it was stipulated that:
All users were approved and registered
Complex passwords were used changed every 150 days (I wonder what GW Bush's password was)
It was only accessible from specially enabled computers in secure locations
there was an Audit trail of all users, including identity of all persons accessing Siprnet

So what went wrong?
Maybe the fact that 2.5 Million people had access to it (details)

----------


## northener

> Quite plausible.
> 
> I remember a similar story about Thatcher removing UK patrols around the Falklands prior to their invasion.
> 
> Could it be true? - definately. Is is true? - who knows?
> 
> .........


 
I know. 

Not true.

There never was a credible armed patrol around the FI. This was (IIRC) a source of concern for the military back in the mid-70's prior to the Conservative lot getting in.

General consenus after the Falklands War was that a couple of frigates/destroyers on station would have possibly deterred the Argentines from instigating the invasion.

But HMS Endurance (the Ice survey ship) was the only HM ship ever specifically deployed to the area.

HTH.

----------


## oldmarine

A lot of speculation going on according to the comments I have read. Who knows? I do know that many Heads of State are scrambling trying to undo the damage done to their country. I listened to Secretary of State Hilliary Clinton trying to undo some of the damage.  She looked like a whipped puppy dog while she was doing so.  I am certain there are many embarrased Heads of Government feeling the effects of this one.

----------


## picturegifts

I have an open mind about who is behind the current crop of Wikileaks, but I do find it a bit odd that the one country responsible for the leaks i.e. USA is the country least affected by them.

----------


## bekisman

The pressure begins:
'WASHINGTON (Reuters)  Amazon.com Inc has stopped hosting WikiLeaks' website, which posted thousands of classified U.S. government documents this week, the Senate Homeland Security Committee chairman said on Wednesday.
The move comes after Senator Joe Lieberman's  staff made inquiries to Amazon on Tuesday as news reports surfaced that WikiLeaks had hired the Internet giant to host the website loaded with secret government documents on the Amazon servers because hackers had targeted the WikiLeaks site.'
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101201/wr_nm/us_wikileaks_amazon

----------


## oldmarine

> I have an open mind about who is behind the current crop of Wikileaks, but I do find it a bit odd that the one country responsible for the leaks i.e. USA is the country least affected by them.


I must have missed something along the way.  I thought Wikileaks was the responsibility of a person in Australia...

----------


## hunter

Best reason I've seen in ages for the state holding less information about citizens, not more.

----------


## Anfield

> I must have missed something along the way.  I thought Wikileaks was the responsibility of a person in Australia...





> "..It has been alleged that the current crop of Wikileaks have been sourced from a USA Defence network called "Siprnet"  (Secret Internet Protocol Router Network).
> So secret is this network that it was designed for the excahange of information  up to "secret" level i.e. the  level for information that would cause "serious damage" to national  security.."(details)


Todays revealtions include details on how the UK allowed USA to store cluster bombs on its territory, despite us being a signatory to an international ban on these  weapons.

----------


## bekisman

> Todays revealtions include details on how the UK allowed USA to store cluster bombs on its territory, despite us being a signatory to an international ban on these weapons.


What!
The Yanks will be storing nuclear bombs here next.. tut tut

----------


## bekisman

Seems that AFP says that Assange's Post Office Account in Switzerland has been closed (after Paypal had closed his account with them) by the authorities there, and  looks like the Swedes, have finally sorted out their paperwork:

"British Police have received a European arrest warrant for the wikileaks founder Julian Assange" the BBC learns

I see that Assange and his 'team' state if this happens they will _'be really, really, naughty':_

Mr Assange's British lawyer, Mark Stephens, warned today that WikiLeaks was holding further secret material which he dubbed a 'thermo-nuclear device' to be released if the organisation needed to protect itself.

Oh gosh! do these prats not realise there is another very dirty, hidden, deadly, world, outside of their closeted existence? - one that no amount of digging will uncover? 
He was on a hiding to nothing as soon as he started spouting his stuff.. sad, sad git.  :Frown:

----------


## Phill

I'm tellin' yer, watch out fer them tunnels!

----------


## Anfield

> "British Police have received a European arrest warrant for the wikileaks founder Julian Assange" the BBC learns
> 
> I see that Assange and his 'team' state if this happens they will _'be really, really, naughty':_
> 
> Mr Assange's British lawyer, Mark Stephens, warned today that WikiLeaks was holding further secret material which he dubbed a 'thermo-nuclear device' to be released if the organisation needed to protect itself.


Maybe this information is that anthropologists have discovered signs of intelligent life in Austrailia

----------


## bekisman

> Maybe this information is that anthropologists have discovered signs of intelligent life in Austrailia


Oh you are awful Anfield - Police in Austrailia (sic) are saying there are there were "potentially a number of criminal laws" that could have been breached, " Defence minister Stephen Smith: "This is an act which again one has no option but to absolutely condemn it. It potentially puts national security interests and it puts the safety and welfare of individuals at stake." 

But nah, the Aussies are nice blokes and I don't think they'll find he's intelligent, not after doing such a silly billy thing..  :Wink:

----------


## Anfield

> But nah, the Aussies are nice blokes and I don't think they'll find he's intelligent, not after doing such a silly billy thing..


He is not as silly as all those who he has "leaked".  
In todays world who leaves a paper/digital trail of important communications?

----------


## RecQuery

> He is not as silly as all those who he has "leaked".  
> In todays world who leaves a paper/digital trail of important communications?


Like I've said who gives a Pvt access to all that info unfiltered or unmonitored it's quite easy to monitor when people open or access a certain number of files.

I'd also like to point out there's an Interpol warrant released for Dick Cheney at around the same time, but it's not getting as much attention.

----------


## upolian

Is everybody posting in this thread in any way working for the government or any subjects discussed...or do you just follow the crap printed in papers and typed up,curious to what the truth is and how many actually know what your typing is 100% true?

----------


## ducati

The only people that seem that interested in the actual leaks, as apposed to the fact that they have been leaked, are various newspapers.

I've not actually had a look at any documents, anyone else?

----------


## bekisman

> Is everybody posting in this thread in any way working for the government or any subjects discussed...or do you just follow the crap printed in papers and typed up,curious to what the truth is and how many actually know what your typing is 100% true?


Nope, not working for the 'government' or 'any subjects discussed' (whatever that means), and no I don't get my own info from newspapers - "Police seize higher power car then crash it...."- where did you get that link from again?

But if you forget the 'crap' and take an interest in what's going on in the big wide world, you might discover the truth.. you might even find it's interesting.. If it's all beyond you, just don't bother, it's so much easier

And what wrong with me typing?.. :Wink:

----------


## upolian

> Nope, not working for the 'government' or 'any subjects discussed' (whatever that means), and no I don't get my own info from newspapers - "Police seize higher power car then crash it...."- where did you get that link from again?
> 
> But if you forget the 'crap' and take an interest in what's going on in the big wide world, you might discover the truth.. you might even find it's interesting.. If it's all beyond you, just don't bother, it's so much easier
> 
> And what wrong with me typing?..


Yes but the police crashing was 100% true...... wheres your 100% proof all this is true etc etc,

I could take a leak and tell everybody,who knows if im telling the truth,

I don't take notice of much unless it has an engine :Wink:  Having said that all this government stuff...they say this that and the next,but who actually knows the truth...

It is a genuine question

----------


## Phill

I'm not sure yet what the sub story is in the background. It's very much a load of tosh presented as ultra secret terrorist fuel with Assange being the apparent fall guy.

IMHO

----------


## Anfield

> "..and no I don't get my own info from newspapers.."


Bekisman, 90% of your posts (have a look back at them) are accompanied with links to various newspaper articles.

I used to pay money to a guy who collated press cuttings for an organisation I ran, was that you?

----------


## bekisman

> Bekisman, 90% of your posts (have a look back at them) are accompanied with links to various newspaper articles.
> 
> I used to pay money to a guy who collated press cuttings for an organisation I ran, was that you?


Oh come come old chap; these links are for general consumption, I only do that 'cos 29th December 2007 I got three infraction points for not giving a link (go on 'have a look back at them').
Look at #33 that was AFP and BBC, 'fraid no link given, (fingers crossed ref mods).. 
I think you'd better put your own house in order Anfield, as 50% of your own posts on this thread alone are Links, you sure your doppelganger wasn't paid by you for those cuttings?  :Wink:

----------


## bekisman

> Yes but the police crashing was 100% true...... wheres your 100% proof all this is true etc etc,
>  I could take a leak and tell everybody,who knows if im telling the truth,
>  I don't take notice of much unless it has an engine Having said that all this government stuff...they say this that and the next,but who actually knows the truth...
> 
> It is a genuine question


Genuine answer?:  not many

----------


## oldmarine

I personally believe the Yanks (the USA) should bring in all their troops from all the country's around the world and protect their own borders and let each country protect their own border including Great Britain. I believe it was better the way it was before WW2 when the USA was an isolationist nation and took care of their own country instead of trying to defend other country's around the world the way they are trying to do now. My old WW2 Navy buddy feels the same way as I.

----------


## Phill

Many people don't see it as 'defend'!

----------


## oldmarine

> Many people don't see it as 'defend'!


Believe what you want Phill. I liked it the way it was before WW2.

----------


## Metalattakk

> I personally believe the Yanks (the USA) should bring in all their troops from all the country's around the world and protect their own borders and let each country protect their own border including Great Britain. I believe it was better the way it was before WW2 when the USA was an isolationist nation and took care of their own country instead of trying to defend other country's around the world the way they are trying to do now. My old WW2 Navy buddy feels the same way as I.


I agree, but there's a lot of votes to be lost if the incumbent government goes down that line. I don't think any US government would take that chance.

----------


## Aaldtimer

> Believe what you want Phill. I liked it the way it was before WW2.


Well the times have changed Oldmarine, this ain't about defending anyone, it's about the control of the oil supply and big business(US style). ::

----------


## Phill

> Believe what you want Phill. I liked it the way it was before WW2.


It's not what I believe, it's what the residents and population of the 'defended' countries believe.

I have to agree, I think it would be better for the UK (US, Nato, UN et al) to stop meddling in other peoples business, get the troops back home and concentrate on sorting this mess out before inflicting our version of utopia on countries with wildly different traditions and ways of life.

----------


## RecQuery

_"The problems of others are not our concern"_

I'll admit it seems like a good idea but it's hard to exist in a vacuum.

----------


## ducati

Like I've said before, if you don't go out and do the world, the world will come and do you!

----------


## bekisman

I see that Assange has now been arrested (all news channels), got to appear at Westminster Magistrates court today..

Give him three months to wriggle before he's in Sweden, maybe the US will ask him to be extradited to there, then he can play solitaire with U.S. Army soldier Bradley Manning, who might be serving 52 years.. naivety to the extreme..

Hmm interesting  :Wink:

----------


## oldmarine

> Oh you are awful Anfield - Police in Austrailia (sic) are saying there are there were "potentially a number of criminal laws" that could have been breached, " Defence minister Stephen Smith: "This is an act which again one has no option but to absolutely condemn it. It potentially puts national security interests and it puts the safety and welfare of individuals at stake." 
> 
> But nah, the Aussies are nice blokes and I don't think they'll find he's intelligent, not after doing such a silly billy thing..


 



During WW2 I found the Aussies to be very good people. They treated us Yanks superbly.

----------


## northener

Isolationist policies rarely work, IMO.

All that happens is that whatever problem eventually comes knocking on the door, it will be a lot bigger than it would have been if you hadn't done something about it earlier.

It's a bit like ignoring final demands - they don't just go away.....

----------


## northener

> .......I could take a leak and tell everybody,who knows if im telling the truth,
> 
> ...........


Well, if you've been a bit clumsy, you may have splash marks on your light coloured trousers..........bit of a giveaway (and a tad embarassing). ::

----------


## bekisman

> Isolationist policies rarely work, IMO.
> 
> All that happens is that whatever problem eventually comes knocking on the door, it will be a lot bigger than it would have been if you hadn't done something about it earlier.
>  It's a bit like ignoring final demands - they don't just go away.....


  You are smack on there Northener

----------


## bekisman

Oh well see he's been arrested and refused bail - wonder if his supporters are stupid enough to do what they say below? Seems that the Australian Government are thinking of taking his passport away, (obviously ignoring that 'Open letter' signed by such august folks as a playwright, critic, actor, novelist, performer, theatre director, Oxfam, television producer, Australian Council of Trade Unions et el) 
Never mind, John Pilger, (yet another 'Aussie - blinking heck is HE still going?) offered surety too..

Silly lad, playing with the big boys - what did he expect?  :: 

_The founder of WikiLeaks has warned that his supporters are primed to publish a 'deluge' of leaked government documents should his activities be curtailed by any country. Julian Assange has distributed to fellow hackers an encrypted 'poison pill' of damaging secrets, thought to include details on BP and Guantanamo Bay. He believes the file is his 'insurance' in case he is killed, arrested or the whistleblowing website is removed permanently from the internet._

----------


## billmoseley

i hope he spends the rest of his days behind bars he comes across to me as a spoilt little boy who likes the attention. well in prison i'm sure he will get plenty in the showers. if he's released he will have to spend the rest of his days  looking over his shoulder i'm sure someone somewhere will have a contract out on him. least i'm sure i heard it somewhere  ::

----------


## Logical

Don't we live in a free society?

In a free society if the truth is really such a serious matter that affects world wide security what really defines our freedom?

----------


## bekisman

> Don't we live in a free society?
> 
> In a free society if the truth is really such a serious matter that affects world wide security what really defines our freedom?


Assange has been arrested for *Rape* - or are the Swedes being political?

----------


## billmoseley

> Don't we live in a free society?
> 
> In a free society if the truth is really such a serious matter that affects world wide security what really defines our freedom?


sometimes things are better off not said.  this is one of them

----------


## Mystical Potato Head

> Assange has been arrested for *Rape* - or are the Swedes being political?


Strange how the Swedish Prosecution Authority cancelled an arrest warrant back in August 
stating he was not suspected of rape.Chief prosecuter Eva Finne said "there was no reason to suspect that he has commited rape"
There is a lot of conspiracy websites where the opinion is that its a CIA stitchup to discredit him.Payback time.

Stranger things have happened.

----------


## RecQuery

> Assange has been arrested for *Rape* - or are the Swedes being political?


He wasn't arrested for rape, they tried that the first time a few months back and it didn't work (Anna Ardin and Sofia Wilén were proven to have made the whole thing up). What he's being _held for questioning_ over translates as 'unexpected sex' or 'sex by surprise'. Essentially the women are claiming he had sex with them and the condom broke and he didn't tell them.

The women is question threw a party for him the day after the alledged incident and posted tweets about how awesome he was etc. Not the sort of thing you'd expect someone to do in such a situation.

One of the women in question (Anna Ardin) also posted a guide to her website/blog called 'A Seven Step Model On How To Take Revenge The Legal Way'.

She also has ties to the CIA through work she's done in Cuba and then there's the leaked cable highlighting a strategy on how to deal with Wikileaks, which included choking off funding and coming at them from multiple angles through third party legal action.

----------


## ducati

Ah the internet  ::  again.

----------


## bekisman

> Strange how the Swedish Prosecution Authority cancelled an arrest warrant back in August 
> stating he was not suspected of rape.Chief prosecuter Eva Finne said "there was no reason to suspect that he has commited rape"
> There is a lot of conspiracy websites where the opinion is that its a CIA stitchup to discredit him.Payback time.
> 
> Stranger things have happened.


Apparently having consensual sex in Sweden without a condom is punishable by a term of imprisonment of a minimum of two years for rape. That is the basis for a reinstitution of rape charges against Assange. 

Your mention of a stitch up via CIA is preposterous, how on earth would the USA influence a sovereign country such as Sweden?; Nah, not really; I think you might be sniffing along the right lines there, as you say; 'stranger things have happened' - we shall see. Young Assange will be safe in the Clink, Judge quote: _"he may be at risk from unstable persons"!_ Really?  :Wink:

----------


## bekisman

> He wasn't arrested for rape, they tried that the first time a few months back and it didn't work (Anna Ardin and Sofia Wilén were proven to have made the whole thing up). What he's being _held for questioning_ over translates as 'unexpected sex' or 'sex by surprise'. Essentially the women are claiming he had sex with them and the condom broke and he didn't tell them.
> 
> The women is question threw a party for him the day after the alledged incident and posted tweets about how awesome he was etc. Not the sort of thing you'd expect someone to do in such a situation.
> 
> One of the women in question (Anna Ardin) also posted a guide to her website/blog called 'A Seven Step Model On How To Take Revenge The Legal Way'.
> 
> She also has ties to the CIA through work she's done in Cuba and then there's the leaked cable highlighting a strategy on how to deal with Wikileaks, which included choking off funding and coming at them from multiple angles through third party legal action.


Please see last Para in #66; ta

----------


## Phill

> What he's being _held for questioning_ over translates as 'unexpected sex' or 'sex by surprise'.



I wonder if he's going to be extended the same legal protection and actions should he be subject to the same (or slightly similar sexual acts) whilst in Wandsworth?

----------


## Logical

> Strange how the Swedish Prosecution Authority cancelled an arrest warrant back in August 
> stating he was not suspected of rape.Chief prosecuter Eva Finne said "there was no reason to suspect that he has commited rape"
> There is a lot of conspiracy websites where the opinion is that its a CIA stitchup to discredit him.Payback time.
> 
> Stranger things have happened.


They have and isn't it just perfect timing when wikileaks are due to release more information? I think its being done so public opinion of him goes down and as a result wikileaks gets pushed into the background.




> translates as 'unexpected sex' or 'sex by surprise'.


That busts the myth that its OK if you say "surprise!"


Did I hear somewhere in the news that wikileaks are holding some information hostage in the event that their founder is tried unfairly?

----------


## RecQuery

> They have and isn't it just perfect timing when wikileaks are due to release more information? I think its being done so public opinion of him goes down and as a result wikileaks gets pushed into the background.
> 
> 
> That busts the myth that its OK if you say "surprise!"
> 
> 
> Did I hear somewhere in the news that wikileaks are holding some information hostage in the event that their founder is tried unfairly?


They published an encrypted (AES256) 1.4GB file months ago when they first got the information before sorting it. It's rumoured to contain a lot of stuff they didn't want to release. Wikileaks actually filtered the stuff they got and offered the Pentagon the chance to essentially filter and vet material more but they turned them down.

Anyway the key to this file will probably get released if it all goes to hell. Julian Assange is just the front man, there are tons of people working behind the scenes for Wikileaks so taking him out won't do much.

I'm hoping the release the information they have on the banks soon.

----------


## bekisman

_#58 He believes the file is his 'insurance' in case he is killed, arrested or the whistleblowing website is removed permanently from the internet_
So what are they waiting for?

Having problems with MasterCard,? or Paypal? seems a number of sites have been targeted by a bunch of revenge nerds who are unhappy that they refused to take donations for wikileaks.

Oh shame, so they think by causing hassle to millions of ordinary people in revenge for Assange's nonsense is a sensible thing to do?, -that folk will suddenly blame these companies, and everyone will say what a wonderful chap Julian is? Hmm says a lot that does.

The group has pledged to launch denial-of-service attacks on websites it sees as anti-Wikileaks. _"We feel that Wikileaks has become more than just about leaking of documents, it has become a war ground, the people vs. the government,"_ Oh my God, are these people real?.. they want to stop playing WOW and come out of their darkened rooms - it's a big ole nasty world out there, you know...

Earlier the group confirmed other targets: "In response to the arrest of Julian Assange, Anonymous has taken down PostFinance.ch, who terminated Wikileaks bank account, using a distributed denial-of-service attack. Subsequently, Anonymous attacked http://www.aklagare.se, the Swedish Prosecutors office, also using a DDoS attack, and took the site down in under 10 seconds of beginning the attack," the group said in a statement.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11935539

----------


## bekisman

> They published an encrypted (AES256) 1.4GB file months ago when they first got the information before sorting it. It's rumoured to contain a lot of stuff they didn't want to release. Wikileaks actually filtered the stuff they got and offered the Pentagon the chance to essentially filter and vet material more but they turned them down.
> 
> Anyway the key to this file will probably get released if it all goes to hell. Julian Assange is just the front man, there are tons of people working behind the scenes for Wikileaks so taking him out won't do much.
> 
> I'm hoping the release the information they have on the banks soon.


 "I'm hoping the release the information they have on the banks soon"
Now THAT would be interesting..

----------


## RecQuery

> _#58 He believes the file is his 'insurance' in case he is killed, arrested or the whistleblowing website is removed permanently from the internet_
> So what are they waiting for?
> 
> Having problems with MasterCard,? or Paypal? seems a number of sites have been targeted by a bunch of revenge nerds who are unhappy that they refused to take donations for wikileaks.
> 
> Oh shame, so they think by causing hassle to millions of ordinary people in revenge for Assange's nonsense is a sensible thing to do?, -that folk will suddenly blame these companies, and everyone will say what a wonderful chap Julian is? Hmm says a lot that does.
> 
> The group has pledged to launch denial-of-service attacks on websites it sees as anti-Wikileaks. _"We feel that Wikileaks has become more than just about leaking of documents, it has become a war ground, the people vs. the government,"_ Oh my God, are these people real?.. they want to stop playing WOW and come out of their darkened rooms - it's a big ole nasty world out there, you know...
> 
> ...


They essentially protested. Annoying though protests may be they're a necessary evil, what's more concerning was that a single government (The US) was able to influence the companies in that way or that they caved in. The 10 second thing speaks to more how bad the websites hosting or IT was, most decent sites weather a DDoS with just some slowdown. Wikileaks itself was DDos'd by several groups and managed to stay up.

It was 'Anonymous', a 4chan group. They're the ones that do the RIAA attacks and more recently the ACS stuff.

*EDIT:* I agree with the banking thing, they maybe should have released that before the diplomatic cables, let it cool down a bit since their last release.

----------


## bekisman

> They essentially protested. Annoying though protests may be they're a necessary evil, what's more concerning was that a single government (The US) was able to influence the companies in that way or that they caved in. The 10 second thing speaks to more how bad the websites hosting or IT was, most decent sites weather a DDoS with just some slowdown. Wikileaks itself was DDos'd by several groups and managed to stay up.
> 
> It was 'Anonymous', a 4chan group. They're the ones that do the RIAA attacks and more recently the ACS stuff.
> 
> *EDIT:* I agree with the banking thing, they maybe should have released that before the diplomatic cables, let it cool down a bit since their last release.


My middle son is a manager in IT (or 'something', and in our conversations says the security of certain companies is terrible. I once watched at his high security place of work as he broke into the moving message announcements on a particular west country main railway station; putting in a text of "hello dad", which I was able to watch live - I've no idea how...

Not being technically suss, I understand that these DDos are carried out by PC's that have allowed a Trojan to be downloaded which can allow them to be remotely controlled;, these are then used collectively to bombard a certain website so as it's overwhelmed?
I know of a few friends who have no firewall or virus protection; idiots!

I fully agree with you there re Banks, wikileaks would gain one hell of a lot of respect if it was all our favourites targets such as the immoral banking system, or some real dirty stuff with the multinationals, instead of this, what is basically gossip from one diplomat to another, or how terrible one of our royals behaviour was is spouted out.. pretty soon something will come out - not redacted - and cause some real harm.

----------


## ducati

I imagine the reason the Banks have dropped him is because they don't want the inconvenience of being required to freeze/seize his assets.

I would not defend criminal hackers that use innocent bystanders PCs to attack web sites (in the name of freedom  :: ).

----------


## RecQuery

> I imagine the reason the Banks have dropped him is because they don't want the inconvenience of being required to freeze/seize his assets.
> 
> I would not defend criminal hackers that use innocent bystanders PCs to attack web sites (in the name of freedom ).


Ah well in this case the DDoS is voluntary in that people download a program called LOIC (Low Orbit Ion Cannon) and willingly participate. The program is open source so the code has been audited so nothing happens in the background. You have to actually open it and put in a list of targets usually obtained from a forum and then click start.

There are botnets for hire, fulled of zombied machines. Ironically places like the RIAA and MPAA have hired these botnets to try and take down filesharing sites.

A DDoS (Distributed Denial of Service) attack in this case just means the program constantly does DNS lookups or tries to load the webpage. Eventually saturating the connection the server is hosted on.

----------


## ducati

> Ah well in this case the DDoS is voluntary in that people download a program called LOIC (Low Orbit Ion Cannon) and willingly participate. The program is open source so the code has been audited so nothing happens in the background. You have to actually open it and put in a list of targets usually obtained from a forum and then click start.
> 
> There are botnets for hire, fulled of zombied machines. Ironically places like the RIAA and MPAA have hired these botnets to try and take down filesharing sites.
> 
> A DDoS (Distributed Denial of Service) attack in this case just means the program constantly does DNS lookups or tries to load the webpage. Eventually saturating the connection the server is hosted on.


Oh  ::  :: 

It is ironic that the very freedoms of use these spoilt children profess to defend, are made possible by big corporations using the internet. If these nuisance attacks were to become a serious cost to business they may decide the cost of doing business on-line is too high and find other ways. This presumably would leave the internet funding short and their virtual world would become a smaller, darker, colder place.

Personally, I can see a future where the internet is marginalised as a toy, for hobbyists and gamers, and a more grown up system is developed. Too much on the internet does not sit happily together. And from a risk perspective to business and Government organisations, why add more?
 ::

----------


## oldmarine

Looks to me that Wikileaks founder is trying to show himself stronger and more popular than any of the countries around the world with his latest actions.

----------


## RecQuery

> Oh 
> 
> It is ironic that the very freedoms of use these spoilt children profess to defend, are made possible by big corporations using the internet. If these nuisance attacks were to become a serious cost to business they may decide the cost of doing business on-line is too high and find other ways. This presumably would leave the internet funding short and their virtual world would become a smaller, darker, colder place.
> 
> Personally, I can see a future where the internet is marginalised as a toy, for hobbyists and gamers, and a more grown up system is developed. Too much on the internet does not sit happily together. And from a risk perspective to business and Government organisations, why add more?


Well these people pay money to service providers whose job is to provide access, what they do with that access is up to them (I've never participated in a DDoS attack, but that's because I have other uses for my bandwidth)

Business hasn't really funded any developement of the Internet or helped online freedom except those service providers, and again most of them are just implementing technology invented by hobbyists or in academia.

The opposite is in fact true. businesses and governments constantly try to hobble the Internet. The problem is most businesses and governments still don't _get_ the Internet, hell some of them have problems with basic science concepts. It's in part what the whole Net Neutrality thing is about. If the people doing this can be grouped together then I'd say a number of them want that to happen, they want the Internet to go back to the way it was, when the quality of discourse was a lot higher, they call the period after that the Eternal September.

----------


## bekisman

> Looks to me that Wikileaks founder is trying to show himself stronger and more popular than any of the countries around the world with his latest actions.


"His latest actions?" he's in nick at the moment, lawyers can't get to see him as no facilities for a legal team, but expect that'll get sorted.. 
Must admit bit surprised that today, some bloke who is wanted in South Africa for murder, has been given bail, whilst poor old Assange is locked up - how weird is that!

Not looking too bright for Julian either:, 

'John Bellinger, former top legal adviser to the state department and now at Arnold and Porter, said he thought Mr Assanges lawyers would make such an argument, but: I have no doubt the government can show that among the 250,000 cables serious damage has resulted from these disclosures.  :Frown:

----------


## bekisman

> Well these people pay money to service providers whose job is to provide access, what they do with that access is up to them (I've never participated in a DDoS attack, but that's because I have other uses for my bandwidth)
> 
> Business hasn't really funded any developement of the Internet or helped online freedom except those service providers, and again most of them are just implementing technology invented by hobbyists or in academia.
> 
> The opposite is in fact true. businesses and governments constantly try to hobble the Internet. The problem is most businesses and governments still don't _get_ the Internet, hell some of them have problems with basic science concepts. It's in part what the whole Net Neutrality thing is about. If the people doing this can be grouped together then I'd say a number of them want that to happen, they want the Internet to go back to the way it was, when the quality of discourse was a lot higher, they call the period after that the Eternal September.


Is that us? "The expression encapsulates the belief that an endless influx of new users (newbies) since that date has continuously degraded standards of discourse and behavior on Usenet and the wider Internet."

So eventually it will all be crud?  ::

----------


## ducati

> Well these people pay money to service providers whose job is to provide access, what they do with that access is up to them (I've never participated in a DDoS attack, but that's because I have other uses for my bandwidth)
> 
> Business hasn't really funded any developement of the Internet or helped online freedom except those service providers, and again most of them are just implementing technology invented by hobbyists or in academia.
> 
> The opposite is in fact true. businesses and governments constantly try to hobble the Internet. The problem is most businesses and governments still don't _get_ the Internet, hell some of them have problems with basic science concepts. It's in part what the whole Net Neutrality thing is about. If the people doing this can be grouped together then I'd say a number of them want that to happen, they want the Internet to go back to the way it was, when the quality of discourse was a lot higher, they call the period after that the Eternal September.


If business and govenment didn't use the internet then there would be little incentive for the ISPs to plow the money in?

The only thing 'they' want or need to understand is can I get my message out? and can I make any money? Oh and what is the risk?

I, like you, were involved in the early days. Who knew?  ::

----------


## RecQuery

> "His latest actions?" he's in nick at the moment, lawyers can't get to see him as no facilities for a legal team, but expect that'll get sorted.. 
> Must admit bit surprised that today, some bloke who is wanted in South Africa for murder, has been given bail, whilst poor old Assange is locked up - how weird is that!
> 
> Not looking too bright for Julian either:, 
> 
> 'John Bellinger, former top legal adviser to the state department and now at Arnold and Porter, said he thought Mr Assange’s lawyers would make such an argument, but: “I have no doubt the government can show that among the 250,000 cables serious damage has resulted from these disclosures.”


Well right now the US Attorney General is trying to invent a law they can use to extradite him from Sweden. They don't have anything they can arrest him with at the moment, hence the trumped up so called sexual assault. Strange when compared to the Pentagon Papers and the reaction they got even though I wasn't even born then.

----------


## bekisman

> Well right now the US Attorney General is trying to invent a law they can use to extradite him from Sweden. They don't have anything they can arrest him with at the moment, hence the trumped up so called sexual assault. Strange when compared to the Pentagon Papers and the reaction they got even though I wasn't even born then.


I don't think the US will mention officially that they might intend extraditing Julian from Sweden, presumably a new law will be rushed through - the 1917 Espionage act no good? and as Julian will fight this extradition, it will, ironically, give it ample time to get through.. 
Of course no hint to Assange's 'legal team' that this is intended, cos it might get a wee bit difficult to get him sent there; human rights and all that stuff that Julian spouts as his Raison d'être...

Re your link. I wonder if Bradley Manning will use this too: _"I felt that as an American citizen, as a responsible citizen, I could no longer cooperate in concealing this information from the American public. I did this clearly at my own jeopardy and I am prepared to answer to all the consequences of this decision." _  Ellsberg on why he released the Pentagon Papers to the press.
I see he 'almost' had a bit of a rough time? Ellsberg later claimed that after his trial ended, Watergate prosecutor William H Merrill informed him of an aborted plot by Liddy and the "plumbers" to have 12 Cuban-Americans who had previously worked for the CIA to "totally incapacitate" Ellsberg as he appeared at a public rally, though it is unclear whether that meant to assassinate Ellsberg or merely to hospitalize him.

 (apparently no time to get the waiters) 

Ellsberg has said that he fears for Manning and for Julian Assange, as he feared for himself after the initial publication of the Pentagon Papers - Hmm - many years have passed and a lot of sneaky things can happen..

I must feign surprise the declared outrage by some as to the underhand methodology of our Cousins. Forsoth, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet, Act 1 scene 5... now there's a thought!

----------


## oldmarine

More than one way to get even.  Wikileaks tried to shut down Visa.

----------


## ducati

I still cannot reconcile a group that is for freedom of speech attacking and trying to shut down websites. Swedish Government now.

IMO they are just anarchists.

----------


## spurtle

If wikileaks had not endangered people's lives by printing names of informants in Afganistan they may have been able to take the moral high ground.As far as I'm concerned they are irresponsible and have shot themselves in the foot.

----------


## bekisman

Oh well, seems that these idiots who are out for revenge against websites perceived to be anti-Wikileaks, planned to bring down Amazon, have failed, seems they were going to do it at 4 pm today but the site seems to be functioning normally.


The tool through which attacks are carried out against websites perceived to be anti-Wikileaks has now been downloaded more than 31,000 times.

Security experts warned people to avoid joining the voluntary botnet.
The websites are targeting using the Anonymous attack tool known as LOIC. When a person installs the tool on their PC it enrols the machine into a voluntary botnet which then bombards target sites with data. 

Carole Thierault, a security researcher at Sophos, warned against getting involved with the Anonymous campaign. Ms Thierault said downloading and installing the LOIC attack tool was very risky.

"No-one should download unknown code on to their system," she said. "You're giving access to your computer to a complete stranger."

Oh I see, so 31,000 really, really upset PC users have now opened up their entire computer, to be looked at minutely by some bod, somewhere, to do with it what they like.. 

hmm that's cleaver isn't it? OK, fair enough, amongst these there will be ones who know what they are doing, but bet my bottom dollar that most of 'em haven't a clue..

Never mind, normal minded, decent folk, can carry on ordering their Chrimbo presents from Amazon. I expect they would be rather annoyed if they couldn't do so, cos of some  who's upset by something the vast majority could not give a toss for.. :Wink:

----------


## rich

Either we have an open media or we dont. It's that simple.
In democratic societies, in time of war, newspapers agree to forefeit that right for the duration of the conflict.
But it is a quid pro quo. The right of the media to report on news is not abrogated.
Nevertheless, the situation prevailing these day should fill us with concern.
Because we are living in an era of constant war and we in the western democracies are up to our necks in it.
Warfare has become like a metastising cancer. We are all influenced by it even though our particular nation state may be in remission.
It is in times like these that we must say "no" to any  cosy agreements involving media cover-ups with the military establishment.
 This was brought home to me last week when we in Toronto were subjected to a visit by Tony Blair.
Blair, who waded through blood in Iraq and Afghanistan was debating with Christopher Hitchens whether religion made people somehow better, kinder and more empathetic. Blair was, as ever, the obnoxious little smarm bouncing up and down in best Oxford Union style.What Hitchens was up to I have no idea  but I suspect his publisher did well out of the occasion.
The released matierial from Willieland seems to be harmless, but emarrasing. No more. No less.

----------


## RecQuery

> Oh well, seems that these idiots who are out for revenge against websites perceived to be anti-Wikileaks, planned to bring down Amazon, have failed, seems they were going to do it at 4 pm today but the site seems to be functioning normally.
> 
> 
> The tool through which attacks are carried out against websites perceived to be anti-Wikileaks has now been downloaded more than 31,000 times.
> 
> Security experts warned people to avoid joining the voluntary botnet.
> The websites are targeting using the Anonymous attack tool known as LOIC. When a person installs the tool on their PC it enrols the machine into a voluntary botnet which then bombards target sites with data. 
> 
> Carole Thierault, a security researcher at Sophos, warned against getting involved with the Anonymous campaign. Ms Thierault said downloading and installing the LOIC attack tool was very risky.
> ...


I prefer to do other things with my bandwidth but it's not unknown it's open source. You can see the source code for yourself, it's not even hard to read it's written in .NET, there's a Java version out there also. I've checked the code myself and it's been audited by various computer security people, which I personally would trust more than someone who works for Sophos but that's different issue.

The LOIC tool doesn't join the computer to a C&C system like some dodgy Russian DDoS thing. It can't receive commands like a malicious botnet can. It looks like this:



Then what someone does is go to a forum/message board and gets a list of targets then starts it up, when they stop it that's it. Nothing else happens.

On a side note I hate when the media calls these people hackers, ignoring the whole hackers/crackers thing. These people are what we call Script Kiddies.

*EDIT:* The name Low Orbit Ion Cannon is a reference to a computer game called Command and Conquer if anyone cares.

----------


## John Little

"Either we have an open media or we dont. It's that simple."

True.

We don't.

----------


## ducati

If it protects my family and I, and I believe it does, I would prefer the secrets to be kept. As far as I am concerned it is, that simple.

So I don't like people who feel they have a higher calling, making decisions that put me and mine in jeopardy. If caught I would like them locked up please.

----------


## bekisman

> I prefer to do other things with my bandwidth but it's not unknown it's open source. You can see the source code for yourself, it's not even hard to read it's written in .NET, there's a Java version out there also. I've checked the code myself and it's been audited by various computer security people, which I personally would trust more than someone who works for Sophos but that's different issue.
> 
> The LOIC tool doesn't join the computer to a C&C system like some dodgy Russian DDoS thing. It can't receive commands like a malicious botnet can. It looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Then what someone does is go to a forum/message board and gets a list of targets then starts it up, when they stop it that's it. Nothing else happens.
> 
> On a side note I hate when the media calls these people hackers, ignoring the whole hackers/crackers thing. These people are what we call Script Kiddies.
> ...


Seems it's happened all over - some folk use Dos for different reasons?:
I see some 17 year old kid has been arrested in Manchester, for 'cyber attacking' the online version of the computer game Call of Duty out of action. 
It followed a "denial of service" attack, which saw large numbers of people unable to play the game online.

The attack was facilitated via a malicious program called "Phenom Booter", which was also being offered for sale on a web forum which allowed those playing Call of Duty to score more points while stopping other people playing the game.

Well that's one way to win I suppose!  :: 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-11961333

----------


## bekisman

OK I know, this is boring, but ref the earlier posts:
_"In the Netherlands a teenager has been arrested in connection to the attacks._
_The 16-year-old was arrested by a high-tech crime unit in The Hague after allegedly admitting to involvement in the targeting of the websites of two credit card companies, MasterCard and Visa." (BBC)_

Poor boy..

----------


## The Pepsi Challenge

Is Assanage a patsy? If he is, it will allow radical changes in the law - a la 9/11 - to suit the Yanks' agenda. If he isn't, it comes as no surprise to see the powers that be doing everything they can to descredit him. 

The minute I heard heard his name associated with Wikileaks it seemed so obvious, to me, that he would be stitched up immediately. Sure enough. Two minutes later, two women - with connections to the CIA and represented by the same lawyer no less - go tweeting about their joy at being raped by him. Wonderful girls. You do genuine rape victims a great disservice. Of course, there's a few bruised egos out there in the political world, and vengence will be there's. So here's a thought: How many people has Wikileaks killed compared to the world leaders Wikileaks has exposed? Exactly, 0:X.

----------


## The Pepsi Challenge

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...world-reaction

----------


## RecQuery

I found this a rather interesting point of view. If that link doesn't jump to it directly, it's the comment posted by posted by wuwei at 1:30 AM on December 9

----------


## bekisman

> I found this a rather interesting point of view. If that link doesn't jump to it directly, it's the comment posted by posted by wuwei at 1:30 AM on December 9


I like the point of view below that one:
"Attacks against civilian infrastructure with the intent of causing collateral damage to make a point seem a bit too close to terrorism for my liking. I don't think that this sort of thing should be encouraged or hailed as heroic.

If the DDOS attacks don't work and a group of hard-core /b/tards start planting Baader-Meinhof-style bombs in banks to protest against the WikiLeaks prosecution, will we still be hailing them?"

Terrorism? Bombs? Is this Six Degrees of I'm A Frightened Old Lady?

----------


## RecQuery

> I like the point of view below that one:
> "Attacks against civilian infrastructure with the intent of causing collateral damage to make a point seem a bit too close to terrorism for my liking. I don't think that this sort of thing should be encouraged or hailed as heroic.
> 
> If the DDOS attacks don't work and a group of hard-core /b/tards start planting Baader-Meinhof-style bombs in banks to protest against the WikiLeaks prosecution, will we still be hailing them?"
> 
> Terrorism? Bombs? Is this Six Degrees of I'm A Frightened Old Lady?


Heh yeah, I'm expecting cries of 'won't'someone please think of the children' at any moment or breaking news that supporting Wikileaks causes cancer.

----------


## bekisman

> Heh yeah, I'm expecting cries of 'won't'someone please think of the children' at any moment or breaking news that supporting Wikileaks causes cancer.


Does it really? I honestly did not know that, can you publish a link?

----------


## bekisman

Blinking heck - have these twits grown-up or something? they actually finally realised that Jo Public would get jarred off with 'em!. Well I am impressed..

As an aside, I get whispers (ref #84 above) that it _might_ be the 1917 Espionage Act, USC 18, Pt 1, Ch 37, after all, that our friends across the Pond might use to get Assange.. 

_"Anonymous appeared to backtrack from attacks launched earlier this week, saying that it now does not plan to target the "critical infrastructure of companies such as MasterCard, Visa, PayPal, or Amazon."_
_A press release circulated under the Anonymous name said its members did not want to alienate the public by causing online havoc over Christmas as it would be "in bad taste"._
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8195120/WikiLeaks-Julian-Assange-could-face-spying-charges.html

----------


## oldmarine

So what? What ever will be, will be.

----------


## bekisman

> So what? What ever will be, will be.


Sorry to ask, but what part does that apply to?

----------


## oldmarine

> Sorry to ask, but what part does that apply to?


I'll let it be your choice. Pick whatever you want.

----------


## bekisman

> I'll let it be your choice. Pick whatever you want.


1. have these twits grown-up or something?
2.they actually finally realised that Jo Public would get jarred off with 'em?
3.As an aside, I get whispers (ref #84 above) that it _might_ be the 1917 Espionage Act, USC 18, Pt 1, Ch 37?
4. _"Anonymous appeared to backtrack from attacks launched earlier this week, saying that it now does not plan to target the "critical infrastructure of companies such as MasterCard, Visa, PayPal, or Amazon."_
5._A press release circulated under the Anonymous name said its members did not want to alienate the public by causing online havoc over Christmas as it would be "in bad taste"._

----------

